Buff all scanners strength by a few dB's, and increase the scanning angle a few degrees, and you have a balanced game again. I would like for Scanners to have shorter cooldowns, but I'm unsure of how to balance that. Maybe the Gal Logi should get a cooldown reduction bonus as well.

My commando wrecks scouts

My logi wrecks scouts

My heavy wrecks scouts.

If they don't get the jump on me with a shotty to the back, I will be at an advantage. What are you on about?

My commando wrecks scouts

My logi wrecks scouts

My heavy wrecks scouts.

If they don't get the jump on me with a shotty to the back, I will be at an advantage. What are you on about?

What I would like to see is some cpu/pg penalty to stacking armour plates. It could be explained that normal armour plates are not designed to fit such small frames and as a result do not integrate with the suit as effectively as medium and large frames

As someone who trained gal scout 5 right after 1.8, this is a potential fix I've been bringing up. Eve has the idea of "role" bonuses on tech2 ships. The way that works is things like a 50% bonus to something regardless of how many levels you have in the skill. You could do the same thing with a penalty. ie: 50% penalty to fitting costs for standard plates to light frames

Though I'm not completely convinced that is the way to go. I'd still like to see non-cloaky scouts viable in a front line role for squad support. The idea being that you brick tank your scout so that you can survive without a cloak in the middle of a full squad, and support them with your passive scan. It's hard to really say what the fix should be.

The fix, as such, may not be to change the scout at all but by changing the Assault class to give them a more defined role.

My commando wrecks scouts - unless they do 1k damage before uncloaking

My logi wrecks scouts- unless they do 1k damage before uncloaking

My heavy wrecks scouts. - unless they do 1k damage before uncloaking

If they don't get the jump on me with a shotty to the back, I will be at an advantage. What are you on about?

One concern that jumps out me here is that currently:

1. gal scout has the best ability to stay off the radar or to brick tank
2. The suggestion that gal logi should be granted an even greater ability to active scan their surroundings.

This is effectively changing the racial balance even more in the Gallentes favour. They will have the ability to see everybody with only their scouts being able to avoid the active scans.

One concern that jumps out me here is that currently:

1. gal scout has the best ability to stay off the radar or to brick tank
2. The suggestion that gal logi should be granted an even greater ability to active scan their surroundings.

This is effectively changing the racial balance even more in the Gallentes favour. They will have the ability to see everybody with only their scouts being able to avoid the active scans.

Let's just hope CCP doesn't go down the path of wargaming and make something FOTM to get people to dump Aurum into it, then nerf it later then rinse repeat.

Light frames and heavy frames seem well balanced against each other. All that we really need is the unfinished buff to medium frames they couldn't get around to for 1.8.

1.7 the complaint was tanks. 1.8 it's scouts. There's a very large and fairly obvious shared issued with both these roles which exacerbates the problems to the level that it's in and is a FUNDAMENTAL balancing ideology that needs to be addressed for this game to reach the level I know it can and should be.

That issue is simply this: The best counter to a play style should almost never be itself.

With 1.7 tanks and the way that AV was currently being utilized the only thing that could really handle the tanks on the battlefield were other tanks. It was, to put it diplomatically, problematic. It hindered the general flow of play and having tanks on the field on either side proved to be more of a detriment to a battle than an improvement of variety and circumstance. Many people complained. Several switched to red line rail fits just to try to do something about it. The infantry was furious at the tanks, the vehicle pilots were furious at the red line rails. Not too many people were happy and it showed. The way to defeat tanks WAS tanks and the battle trends followed that logic to just compound the issue.

Now with 1.8 most people complain about scouts. And there's a problem with cloak times, sure, and brick tanking a scout, fine. But those are NOT the main issues. The problem with scouts is that the things that best counter a scout is another scout. The main weakness of a scout is being seen and not having the option to cherry pick their fights and dictate the battle conditions. The only suits that can rob a scout of his or her ability to do so reliably is another scout suit that's kitting ewar modules, and therein lies the problem almost entirely. People hate having to deal with scouts so in an effort to combat them their option is to become the thing on the battlefield that bothers them. It's the same with the way tanks progressed in 1.7. And with everyone converting over to scouts to solve their own personal scout problem it just adds more to the battlefield, increasing other peoples issues with them.

The solution is one that creates a healthy dynamic of game play and allows for fluidity across play styles: the best counter to a scout needs to be a different suit, which is then countered by something else entirely and so the clockwork mechanisms of war spin.

My personal thought on the issue is that the logical heir to the mantelpiece of counter-scout is the logistics suit. The Gallente is already semi-poised in the right direction with having a bonus to active scanners, but largely speaking it's not enough. I run scout suits (not Gallente) undampened and uncloaked and I get under more than 50% of all scans without too much issue. A think a smallish buff in passive scanning on a logistic suit might go a long way into making passive modules more functional for them (small steps here, it would be way too easy for the pendulum to swing the other way and make the scouts undesirable, too), or even a small buff to the angle that active scanners can sweep, which would make them more reliable without necessarily making them any stronger, which incentiveizes using them more.

All in all there are options, for sure, but the bigger issue to be addressed here is the crux of my argument. When the best counter for a play style is the same play style then the battle trend will always settle there. When you keep the gears moving you keep the fight fresh and I think most people will be happier with a robust theater of war.

1.7 did nothing to fix tanks though..... hardners were subtly nerfed and ambush is mostly free of their spam now.

It's pretty simple, the only thing that can ever detect a standard or advanced scout suit (with level 5 skills) is another scout suit, or a gal logi with a proto scanner (a fitting that costs way more than the scout). One on one a scout has a slight advantage if you know he's there. The problem is squads of scouts. You see one and start planning to take him out, and the one behind you that nobody else saw takes you out first. A squad of scouts working together can dismantle an entire team and wipe their uplinks out, pushing them into the redline.

Rock / paper / scissors only works when rock isn't better than everything else.

The hardener nerf was a pretty solid step in the right direction, though. I field a forge gun when I need to run AV and I find that I'm doing a bit more to keep the tanks out of crucial areas if not entirely off the map from me popping them (need to hit every shot perfectly to accomplish this, however). The biggest buff to AV is the AV damage war points that you're now granted, though. With that, many more people are willing to run AV without feeling like they are wasting their time, and just the act of having more AV on the field means that all AV becomes more powerful with the ability to synergistically combine their efforts. The balance, while not perfect, is in a much better place.

The ewar imbalance has been on my mind for awhile now. As it stands a medium suit with complex mods for precision and range are useless and a waste of isk/sp. This is even more exagerated with the dampening bonus from cloaks on scouts. Presision mods and/or scanners should be viable counters for scouts and cloaks. As it stands, the only answer is to run scout yourself.

If scouts are best suited to kill heavies, heavies for mediums, mediums should be the scout killer. To acheive this an increase to the medium suits precision is needed. Make it high enough so one complex precision mod will scan a scout with one enhanced dampener or below. This move would also help curve tanked scouts, as they would have to decide to dampen and be stealthy, or tank and be seen.

Also, the dampening bonus from cloaks has proven too much, if only one suit out of twenty has a chance to counter it, than it is OP.

idea I posted from https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155385

That issue is simply this: The best counter to a play style should almost never be itself.

It's pretty simple, the only thing that can ever detect a standard or advanced scout suit (with level 5 skills) is another scout suit, or a gal logi with a proto scanner (a fitting that costs way more than the scout). One on one a scout has a slight advantage if you know he's there. The problem is squads of scouts. You see one and start planning to take him out, and the one behind you that nobody else saw takes you out first. A squad of scouts working together can dismantle an entire team and wipe their uplinks out, pushing them into the redline.

Rock / paper / scissors only works when rock isn't better than everything else.

I will add this, though: the Gallente already have the bonus to armor reps that no other suit seems to have matched. It's just a free thing they get that maybe all other races need an analog for. For the purposes of this topic if, hypothetically, all Caldari suits got a 10% bonus to scan precision (and the scout had it's bonus slightly reduced to compensate) then that might help shift the battle trends over to Caldari as your counter scout, even outside of the scout role itself. Amarr with a bonus of plate penalty reduction (maybe half the penalty other suits incur?) and Minmatar with let's say a 20% bonus to shield reps (either amount repped or delay time, could be either). Now everything has a very defined role that highlights their race's strengths and gives a bit more combat dynamics.

How can you compare Scouts to Tanks in good conscience?

Anything and Anyone can take out a Scout.
Lots of things can do it in under a second.

1.7 the complaint was tanks. 1.8 it's scouts. There's a very large and fairly obvious shared issued with both these roles which exacerbates the problems to the level that it's in and is a FUNDAMENTAL balancing ideology that needs to be addressed for this game to reach the level I know it can and should be.

That issue is simply this: The best counter to a play style should almost never be itself.

With 1.7 tanks and the way that AV was currently being utilized the only thing that could really handle the tanks on the battlefield were other tanks. It was, to put it diplomatically, problematic. It hindered the general flow of play and having tanks on the field on either side proved to be more of a detriment to a battle than an improvement of variety and circumstance. Many people complained. Several switched to red line rail fits just to try to do something about it. The infantry was furious at the tanks, the vehicle pilots were furious at the red line rails. Not too many people were happy and it showed. The way to defeat tanks WAS tanks and the battle trends followed that logic to just compound the issue.

Now with 1.8 most people complain about scouts. And there's a problem with cloak times, sure, and brick tanking a scout, fine. But those are NOT the main issues. The problem with scouts is that the things that best counter a scout is another scout. The main weakness of a scout is being seen and not having the option to cherry pick their fights and dictate the battle conditions. The only suits that can rob a scout of his or her ability to do so reliably is another scout suit that's kitting ewar modules, and therein lies the problem almost entirely. People hate having to deal with scouts so in an effort to combat them their option is to become the thing on the battlefield that bothers them. It's the same with the way tanks progressed in 1.7. And with everyone converting over to scouts to solve their own personal scout problem it just adds more to the battlefield, increasing other peoples issues with them.

The solution is one that creates a healthy dynamic of game play and allows for fluidity across play styles: the best counter to a scout needs to be a different suit, which is then countered by something else entirely and so the clockwork mechanisms of war spin.

My personal thought on the issue is that the logical heir to the mantelpiece of counter-scout is the logistics suit. The Gallente is already semi-poised in the right direction with having a bonus to active scanners, but largely speaking it's not enough. I run scout suits (not Gallente) undampened and uncloaked and I get under more than 50% of all scans without too much issue. A think a smallish buff in passive scanning on a logistic suit might go a long way into making passive modules more functional for them (small steps here, it would be way too easy for the pendulum to swing the other way and make the scouts undesirable, too), or even a small buff to the angle that active scanners can sweep, which would make them more reliable without necessarily making them any stronger, which incentiveizes using them more.

All in all there are options, for sure, but the bigger issue to be addressed here is the crux of my argument. When the best counter for a play style is the same play style then the battle trend will always settle there. When you keep the gears moving you keep the fight fresh and I think most people will be happier with a robust theater of war.

This one simple statement should be plastered on every single wall,in front of every single work station,above every toilet,in every closet,and in every parking space of every CCP employee,until they actually get the idea,and implement it into common practice within the game.

the only exception being snipers... but snipers are not one shot kills so its not that bad.

I will add that. Another problem with balancing which CCP has repeatedly proven to us they do not understand is the concept of "advantage vs. disadvantage" or "upside vs. downside".

basically, Everything has a purpose, and a primary mode/means of accomplishing said purpose. now if, the advantages said tool provides are too high inrelation to the goal it intends to accomplish, and it does not have enough downsides, then it is OP.

scouts are supposed to be fast. they are supposed to be hard to detect. however, the current scouts not only are fast and undetectable, they also, can carry extra equipment, essentially making them super logis/commandos, they can tank out almost like a medium frame with twice (thrice) the speed and can of course carry the same armaments. So, in actualty scouts have no downside, they tank ike medium frames, are invicible, can carry equipement and still are faster than everyone else.


so, to summarize, when balancing, buffing or nerfing anything. CCP must consider what is this objects goal/purpose, what are the advantges and what are the disadvantages. If something is to weak add advantages. if it is too strong add weaknesses.