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Virtual Riot Rebels New Republic INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 322	Posted - 2014.04.11 17:25:00 - [1] - Quote This is the math for a Caldari Ck.0 Sent with max proficiency skills and 4 complex damage mods using an Ishukone Assault Forge Gun, vs a Madrugar using 2 complex heavy armor reps and 1 enhanced armor rep because you can't fit 3 complex armor reps. Everything is using max skills, for a true end game comparison. TL;DR at bottom Forge Gun stats, prof 5, 4 pro dmg mods for Ishukone Assault Forge Gun 1500 base 1500 / (4 dmg mods).8572 = 1749.88 (1750) vs shield 1740 / (10% weakness to shield)1.1 = 1591 vs armor 1750 / (prof + 10% bonus to armor)0.75 = 2333.3 (2334) Versus tripple rep maddy 2 complex heavy reps 1 enhanced heavy rep = 512.5 (513) armor / s 1200 shield recharge delay 6s dep recharge delay 11.25s recharge rate 96 4000 armor 513 armor / s 1st shot 1200 / 1.1 = 1333.3 (1334) 1500 - 1334 = 166 left over 166 / 0.75 = 221.3 (222) 4000 - 222 = 3778 armor 0 shield, 3778 armor after first shot 2nd shot 2.25 IAFG charge time between shots 2.25 x 513(armor repair rate/s) = 1154.25 (1155) 3778 + 1155 = more than 4000 so he is back to full 4000 armor 4000 - 2334 = 1666 armor left over 3rd shot 1666 + 1155 = 2821 2821 - 2334 = 487 armor left over 4th shot 487 + 1155 = 1642 1642 - 2334 = -692 armor left over (dead) As we can see here, it takes 4 direct hits from the dedicated AV suit to kill this Madrugar. This is considering the AV player hits all his shots in the least amount of time. He must hit all his shots, if he misses one shot he has to repeat the whole process over agin. This gives the Madrugar player 6.75 second to retreat or find cover before being dead. Is it balanced? I just like putting the info out there and letting people take from it what they will. TL;DR 4 shots from an IAFG to kill a triple rep mady with max skills and max damage. (he is dead on the 4th shot)
Ziiro Celeste Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 54	Posted - 2014.04.11 17:30:00 - [2] - Quote Someone has been watching Pyrex videos eh? The forgotten "A" in AAA
rithu Max-Pain-inc Dark Taboo 40	Posted - 2014.04.11 17:30:00 - [3] - Quote AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team You cant see me caldari scouts ;)
Virtual Riot Rebels New Republic INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 322	Posted - 2014.04.11 17:31:00 - [4] - Quote Ziiro Celeste wrote: Someone has been watching Pyrex videos eh? ;) I like how he says its so easy to die in a triple rep maddy
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 8250	Posted - 2014.04.11 17:32:00 - [5] - Quote rithu wrote: AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team Then so should vehicles. Vehicles should be pretty **** without team work, just like AV My intentions is to have a fun game for everyone. If I seem to be biased, I have good hard data to back it up.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 3861	Posted - 2014.04.11 17:34:00 - [6] - Quote And an Ion Pistol can OHK a scout. That doesn't make them balanced. No.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6589	Posted - 2014.04.11 17:35:00 - [7] - Quote rithu wrote: AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team That assertion is a fallacy. #LivingLikeLarry [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1871	Posted - 2014.04.11 17:41:00 - [8] - Quote Atiim wrote: rithu wrote: AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team That assertion is a fallacy. It's not a fallacy, it's an assumed premise. but I agree. There is no evidence to support that premise. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
Principus Shmoof Triariian Sardianii-Triarii Planetary Services Armed-n-Hammered 93	Posted - 2014.04.11 17:43:00 - [9] - Quote I see your point, but here's a better idea. Instead of trying to incite a discussion over whether it's OP or not, let's ask the Devs to give us the Minmatar AV weapon. That will deal explosive damage and be the direct counter to the Armor of a Madruger. Or a Minny Tank with an artillery cannon or autocannon that deal explosive damage. The game is incomplete, and there will be people who will demand that HAVs receive a nerf, when the counters to them are not fully implemented. An Amarr tank and Amarr AV weapon will bring the major EM damage dealers and be the counter to shield. The problem with AV and HAVs is that they just are incomplete, and don't mirror the design of EVE that the game is following well enough yet
Principus Shmoof Triariian Sardianii-Triarii Planetary Services Armed-n-Hammered 93	Posted - 2014.04.11 17:47:00 - [10] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: rithu wrote: AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team Then so should vehicles. Vehicles should be pretty **** without team work, just like AV Not entirely. HAVs are designed to be able to work alone, due to their survive-ability. But here's the thing, an HAV alone with no sort of direction isn't as good, but an HAV with a good squad commander who's giving the pilot orders can be a force to be reckoned with, as team work always will amplify somethings effectiveness. Just because there isn't another HAV, doesn't mean it's alone, it has a team to work with. Basically, teamwork is needed to get more out of your HAV, and more out of your AV
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 8251	Posted - 2014.04.11 17:50:00 - [11] - Quote Principus Shmoof Triariian wrote: Cat Merc wrote: rithu wrote: AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team Then so should vehicles. Vehicles should be pretty **** without team work, just like AV Not entirely. HAVs are designed to be able to work alone, due to their survive-ability. But here's the thing, an HAV alone with no sort of direction isn't as good, but an HAV with a good squad commander who's giving the pilot orders can be a force to be reckoned with, as team work always will amplify somethings effectiveness. Just because there isn't another HAV, doesn't mean it's alone, it has a team to work with. Basically, teamwork is needed to get more out of your HAV, and more out of your AV But HAV solo and AV solo, most of the time the HAV will win. My intentions is to have a fun game for everyone. If I seem to be biased, I have good hard data to back it up.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 1126	Posted - 2014.04.11 17:55:00 - [12] - Quote Triple Repairer Madrugar is an infantry and blaster eater. Both of those do very sustained damage which is where it wins; it's the Drake of DUST. It won't win against anything with front loaded damage such as a Railgun or a Missile tank. For infantry, they are kind of forced into having two guys with Forge weapons or Remote Explosives. I don't use the fit often because I prefer a different fit that I feel is more rounded. Balanced? I don't like to get into regards of balance when it comes to AV-HAV since 1.7 because I have 15 million invested into HAV meaning I cannot in good faith say I am being impartial. I will state, however, is that fit was around back when hardeners were 40/60 and no one complained because their ire was being aimed at Staggered Hardener - Repairer. "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 716	Posted - 2014.04.11 17:56:00 - [13] - Quote AV is meant to be possible by one player, yes, but it's meant to be harder than just destroy because you can see it... I typically end up doing about ~5200 damage to my target in under 3 seconds. Needless to say I love rep stackers as opposed to hardener users. If you can read this, it means you are reading. Unless you are skimming
Principus Shmoof Triariian Sardianii-Triarii Planetary Services Armed-n-Hammered 96	Posted - 2014.04.11 17:59:00 - [14] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Principus Shmoof Triariian wrote: Cat Merc wrote: rithu wrote: AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team Then so should vehicles. Vehicles should be pretty **** without team work, just like AV Not entirely. HAVs are designed to be able to work alone, due to their survive-ability. But here's the thing, an HAV alone with no sort of direction isn't as good, but an HAV with a good squad commander who's giving the pilot orders can be a force to be reckoned with, as team work always will amplify somethings effectiveness. Just because there isn't another HAV, doesn't mean it's alone, it has a team to work with. Basically, teamwork is needed to get more out of your HAV, and more out of your AV But HAV solo and AV solo, most of the time the HAV will win. You're putting a giant weapon on treads against a person, of course it will win if the pilot isn't an idiot. Remember the days when anyone with a swarm launcher and AV Grenedes melted all tanks? Do you wanna go back to that? Oh boy, another nerf, and then a few patches later, another buff. what would we accomplish doing that? Nothing. I'd rather have how it is stay and be able to interact with EVE more than more nerf, buffs, nerfs, buffs.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6590	Posted - 2014.04.11 18:00:00 - [15] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: Triple Repairer Madrugar is an infantry and blaster eater. Both of those do very sustained damage which is where it wins; it's the Drake of DUST. It won't win against anything with front loaded damage such as a Railgun or a Missile tank. For infantry, they are kind of forced into having two guys with Forge weapons or Remote Explosives. I don't use the fit often because I prefer a different fit that I feel is more rounded. The main problem with this, is the fact that the fact that a weapon who's profile has the strongest Armor bias in the game cannot effectively destroy it. That's about as balanced as a Scrambler Rifle not being able to kill a Minmatar Frame. #LivingLikeLarry [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1394	Posted - 2014.04.11 18:06:00 - [16] - Quote rithu wrote: AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team Since when? I hate it when people make this argument since av has never been a matter of whole team coordination or even squad coordination. Heck, since proxies came out I have been able to easily solo any ground vehicle with very little personal risk (a risk reward strategy that closely mirrors that of tanks). really what we need is AV that is capable if solo kills but only for elite (read highly skilled and high sp) av players. For most people it should take a group effort, but soloing tanks should be something infantry can aspire to. Fun > Realism
Supernus Gigas sNk Syndicate 744	Posted - 2014.04.11 18:06:00 - [17] - Quote I swear to cheese some of you people don't know that tanks have a weak spot. Try hitting that with a Breach FG and see what happens. *FIRE UP THE HEAVY MEAT GRINDER! WE'RE HAVIN' CLONE BURGERS TONIGHT, BOYS!*
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6590	Posted - 2014.04.11 18:10:00 - [18] - Quote Principus Shmoof Triariian wrote: You're putting a giant weapon on treads against a person, of course it will win if the pilot isn't an idiot. Remember the days when anyone with a swarm launcher and AV Grenades melted all tanks? Do you wanna go back to that? Oh boy, another nerf, and then a few patches later, another buff. what would we accomplish doing that? Nothing. I'd rather have how it is stay and be able to interact with EVE more than more nerf, buffs, nerfs, buffs. That statement is fallacious. In a game, one person should be able to win against one other person if they use something designed to be their hard counter; and they should be able to do it with reasonable expectations. Otherwise, that unit becomes better than every other unit in said game, and there becomes no point in running anything else other than that item. That serves to remove all diversity from the game, which supposed to be one of this game's 'selling' points. Balancing the game wouldn't hinder the time it would take to strengthen the EVE/DUST link, as they are being worked on by different teams of developers; and I'm pretty sure the majority of the playerbase would much rather have a balanced game where everyone's role is equally fun and viable, as opposed to strengthening the link to a game who's playerbase would love nothing more than for CCP to shut this game down. #LivingLikeLarry [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6590	Posted - 2014.04.11 18:16:00 - [19] - Quote Supernus Gigas wrote: I swear to cheese some of you people don't know that tanks have a weak spot. Try hitting that with a Breach FG and see what happens. Didn't someone already disprove your assertion in another thread? I guess I'll just paste his quote: Nothing Certain wrote: Let's look at the numbers instead of the claims. A militia Sica from the store comes with 4150 HP A Soma, 5200 A Wirkomi BFG does 2100 damage. If you have Lev.5 Prof 5 w/ Complex Heavy Damage Modifier and you hit the fuel cells and get the 168% damage bonus you get 4260 damage. So, you can take out a Sica in one shot, given these conditions. You can't take out a Soma or any other tank. IIf the Sica has any shield extenders or armor plate you can't one shot it. If you only have prof. 4, you can't one shot it. If you miss the fuel cells, you don't even come close. I'd file this claim as possible, but implausible. #LivingLikeLarry [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Principus Shmoof Triariian Sardianii-Triarii Planetary Services Armed-n-Hammered 97	Posted - 2014.04.11 18:23:00 - [20] - Quote Atiim wrote: Principus Shmoof Triariian wrote: You're putting a giant weapon on treads against a person, of course it will win if the pilot isn't an idiot. Remember the days when anyone with a swarm launcher and AV Grenades melted all tanks? Do you wanna go back to that? Oh boy, another nerf, and then a few patches later, another buff. what would we accomplish doing that? Nothing. I'd rather have how it is stay and be able to interact with EVE more than more nerf, buffs, nerfs, buffs. That statement is fallacious. In a game, one person should be able to win against one other person if they use something designed to be their hard counter; and they should be able to do it with reasonable expectations. Otherwise, that unit becomes better than every other unit in said game, and there becomes no point in running anything else other than that item. That serves to remove all diversity from the game, which supposed to be one of this game's 'selling' points. Balancing the game wouldn't hinder the time it would take to strengthen the EVE/DUST link, as they are being worked on by different teams of developers; and I'm pretty sure the majority of the playerbase would much rather have a balanced game where everyone's role is equally fun and viable, as opposed to strengthening the link to a game who's playerbase would love nothing more than for CCP to shut this game down. Balance would be nice, too bad that isn't what the nerfs/buffs do. they nerf, and they buff, they don't balance. If it was balanced, why would you want to nerf it? If it was balanced, why would you want to buff it? Just because you can't kill the scout that is cloaked doesn't mean it is OP, because you might be pursuing unrealistic goals if what you're using can't actually kill cloaky scouts, so you go to the forums and whine until the end of time. If it's broken, fix it, if it isn't and you're just bad, HTFU yah scrub. AV isn't a solo thing for HAVs, it never has been. And it shouldn't be easy to do. A single swarm launcher shouldn't be able to take out an HAV.... but 3 or 4 should have the ability to kill it. In EVE, an assault frigate would be hard pressed to kill a battleship... but 5 Assault Frigates? And if balancing the game was so freaking easy, why isn't it balanced? Why isn't there more of a link to EVE? Simple. Dev time is focused on nerfing and buffing the whiney players who can't deal with something killing them. If it needs to be balanced then by all means do so, but if it really doesn't... then boo hoo you died. You want the game to be better? I have the answer, and there is even a song done by CCP H.T.F.U Less nerf/buff, more content please
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1568	Posted - 2014.04.11 18:33:00 - [21] - Quote Atiim wrote: Joseph Ridgeson wrote: Triple Repairer Madrugar is an infantry and blaster eater. Both of those do very sustained damage which is where it wins; it's the Drake of DUST. It won't win against anything with front loaded damage such as a Railgun or a Missile tank. For infantry, they are kind of forced into having two guys with Forge weapons or Remote Explosives. I don't use the fit often because I prefer a different fit that I feel is more rounded. The main problem with this, is the fact that the fact that a weapon who's profile has the strongest Armor bias in the game cannot effectively destroy it. That's about as balanced as a Scrambler Rifle not being able to kill a Minmatar Frame. You could just ask for your heavy Minmatar AV weapon that will be specialized against armor, while the forge gun is a hybrid type which isn't specialized toward either shield or armor, since the damage difference isn't that great and the proficiency skill is just rather misleading, as it isn't supposed to be anti-armor specialized. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32 Atiim didn't agree with limiting tanks!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 95	Posted - 2014.04.11 18:52:00 - [22] - Quote Math behind Tanks: GOOD =/= YOU Bang?
Funkmaster Whale Ancient Exiles. 1808	Posted - 2014.04.11 19:02:00 - [23] - Quote rithu wrote: AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team Why bother with AV then? When you just log on and want to have fun solo, you're out of luck then I assume? Nonsense, if AV can't get the job done I'll just drop my Militia Sica fit with 2x damage mods and 3-shot your tank in a matter of seconds. You're assumption is wrong. AV should be just as effective against vehicles as vehicles are against infantry. There is nothing about a tank that makes you special and require multiple people to destroy. Let me play you the song of my people!
MarasdF Loron Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 375	Posted - 2014.04.11 19:09:00 - [24] - Quote Ziiro Celeste wrote: Someone has been watching Pyrex videos eh? Although it is possible he has watched Pyrex's videos I fail to see what has to do with this. I have been telling this same damn thing to the AV community, just without math, ever since 1.8 came out and I haven't really been watching his videos lately. Mainly because he started to call tanks fun ever since 1.7... R.I.P. Pre-1.7 Vehicles & AV, you will be missed.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 8256	Posted - 2014.04.11 19:27:00 - [25] - Quote Principus Shmoof Triariian wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Principus Shmoof Triariian wrote: Cat Merc wrote: rithu wrote: AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team Then so should vehicles. Vehicles should be pretty ** without team work, just like AV Not entirely. HAVs are designed to be able to work alone, due to their survive-ability. But here's the thing, an HAV alone with no sort of direction isn't as good, but an HAV with a good squad commander who's giving the pilot orders can be a force to be reckoned with, as team work always will amplify somethings effectiveness. Just because there isn't another HAV, doesn't mean it's alone, it has a team to work with. Basically, teamwork is needed to get more out of your HAV, and more out of your AV But HAV solo and AV solo, most of the time the HAV will win. You're putting a giant weapon on treads against a person, of course it will win if the pilot isn't an idiot. Remember the days when anyone with a swarm launcher and AV Grenedes melted all tanks? Do you wanna go back to that? Oh boy, another nerf, and then a few patches later, another buff. what would we accomplish doing that? Nothing. I'd rather have how it is stay and be able to interact with EVE more than more nerf, buffs, nerfs, buffs. How about this: Both have difficulty taking each other down? Why should a tank have such extreme ease in taking down infantry? ** I ran a missile tank the other day and it seemed extremely balanced against infantry. I could take them down, but it was difficult to do so if they had the right positioning. Ya know, just like it's hard to take down a tank with AV? My intentions is to have a fun game for everyone. If I seem to be biased, I have good hard data to back it up.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 97	Posted - 2014.04.11 19:30:00 - [26] - Quote MarasdF Loron wrote: Ziiro Celeste wrote: Someone has been watching Pyrex videos eh? Although it is possible he has watched Pyrex's videos I fail to see what has to do with this Old Pyrex: Ran infantry. Had a pss stats but good perspectives. New Pyrex: Has run Vehicles in a game without decent AV since early 1.7. Perspectives presently reflect that he's lost touch with reality. Bang?*
MarasdF Loron Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 375	Posted - 2014.04.11 19:47:00 - [27] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: MarasdF Loron wrote: Ziiro Celeste wrote: Someone has been watching Pyrex videos eh? Although it is possible he has watched Pyrex's videos I fail to see what has to do with this Old Pyrex: Ran infantry. Had a pss stats but good perspectives. New Pyrex: Has run Vehicles in a game without decent AV since early 1.7. Perspectives presently reflect that he's lost touch with reality. I guess he used to run infantry alot more in his videos back in the day and while I agree that Pyrex's opinion about tanks is fcked up I have to say that triple rep Maddy is the easiest tank in the game to take down. R.I.P. Pre-1.7 Vehicles & AV, you will be missed.
Alpha 443-6732 General Tso's Alliance 452	Posted - 2014.04.11 19:52:00 - [28] - Quote Atiim wrote: Joseph Ridgeson wrote: Triple Repairer Madrugar is an infantry and blaster eater. Both of those do very sustained damage which is where it wins; it's the Drake of DUST. It won't win against anything with front loaded damage such as a Railgun or a Missile tank. For infantry, they are kind of forced into having two guys with Forge weapons or Remote Explosives. I don't use the fit often because I prefer a different fit that I feel is more rounded. The main problem with this, is the fact that the fact that a weapon who's profile has the strongest Armor bias in the game cannot effectively destroy it. That's about as balanced as a Scrambler Rifle not being able to kill a Minmatar Frame. that's what a large missile turret is for... THAT'S ALL THAT A LARGE MISSILE TURRET IS FOR
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1977	Posted - 2014.04.11 20:05:00 - [29] - Quote Atiim wrote: Joseph Ridgeson wrote: Triple Repairer Madrugar is an infantry and blaster eater. Both of those do very sustained damage which is where it wins; it's the Drake of DUST. It won't win against anything with front loaded damage such as a Railgun or a Missile tank. For infantry, they are kind of forced into having two guys with Forge weapons or Remote Explosives. I don't use the fit often because I prefer a different fit that I feel is more rounded. The main problem with this, is the fact that the fact that a weapon who's profile has the strongest Armor bias in the game cannot effectively destroy it. That's about as balanced as a Scrambler Rifle not being able to kill a Minmatar Frame. That's because it doesn't do a burst of damage; it's does in pieces, kinda like a shotgun does with pellets. If that got fixed, ha,watch the fireworks. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Boot Booter Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 447	Posted - 2014.04.11 20:39:00 - [30] - Quote Principus Shmoof Triariian wrote: Atiim wrote: Principus Shmoof Triariian wrote: You're putting a giant weapon on treads against a person, of course it will win if the pilot isn't an idiot. Remember the days when anyone with a swarm launcher and AV Grenades melted all tanks? Do you wanna go back to that? Oh boy, another nerf, and then a few patches later, another buff. what would we accomplish doing that? Nothing. I'd rather have how it is stay and be able to interact with EVE more than more nerf, buffs, nerfs, buffs. That statement is fallacious. In a game, one person should be able to win against one other person if they use something designed to be their hard counter; and they should be able to do it with reasonable expectations. Otherwise, that unit becomes better than every other unit in said game, and there becomes no point in running anything else other than that item. That serves to remove all diversity from the game, which supposed to be one of this game's 'selling' points. Balancing the game wouldn't hinder the time it would take to strengthen the EVE/DUST link, as they are being worked on by different teams of developers; and I'm pretty sure the majority of the playerbase would much rather have a balanced game where everyone's role is equally fun and viable, as opposed to strengthening the link to a game who's playerbase would love nothing more than for CCP to shut this game down. Balance would be nice, too bad that isn't what the nerfs/buffs do. they nerf, and they buff, they don't balance. If it was balanced, why would you want to nerf it? If it was balanced, why would you want to buff it? Just because you can't kill the scout that is cloaked doesn't mean it is OP, because you might be pursuing unrealistic goals if what you're using can't actually kill cloaky scouts, so you go to the forums and whine until the end of time. If it's broken, fix it, if it isn't and you're just bad, HTFU yah scrub. AV isn't a solo thing for HAVs, it never has been. And it shouldn't be easy to do. A single swarm launcher shouldn't be able to take out an HAV.... but 3 or 4 should have the ability to kill it. In EVE, an assault frigate would be hard pressed to kill a battleship... but 5 Assault Frigates? And if balancing the game was so freaking easy, why isn't it balanced? Why isn't there more of a link to EVE? Simple. Dev time is focused on nerfing and buffing the whiney players who can't deal with something killing them. If it needs to be balanced then by all means do so, but if it really doesn't... then boo hoo you died. You want the game to be better? I have the answer, and there is even a song done by CCP H.T.F.U Less nerf/buff, more content please In dust we are limited to 16v16.. If AV can't solo a tank it creates unbalance. You're eve statement is shortsighted. Ttk on vehicles needs to be high so that we don't return to previous 1.7 where any militia scrub could solo a tank. In order to then balance, tanks can not be so effective against infantry. This is the issue. Not exactly sure how to solve it yet though. The nerf to Swarms was definitely a step in the wrong direction. The only conclusion I can reach is to give tanks a much higher HP but a much lower regen. Steady impacts from AV should cause tanks to retreat for a larger length of time than how it currently sits. Damage to vehicle WP was a good step too and has helped immensely in increasing AV incentives.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6634	Posted - 2014.04.12 13:44:00 - [31] - Quote Principus Shmoof Triariian wrote: Balance would be nice, too bad that isn't what the nerfs/buffs do. they nerf, and they buff, they don't balance. If it was balanced, why would you want to nerf it? If it was balanced, why would you want to buff it? Just because you can't kill the scout that is cloaked doesn't mean it is OP, because you might be pursuing unrealistic goals if what you're using can't actually kill cloaky scouts, so you go to the forums and whine until the end of time. If it's broken, fix it, if it isn't and you're just bad, HTFU yah scrub. AV isn't a solo thing for HAVs, it never has been. And it shouldn't be easy to do. A single swarm launcher shouldn't be able to take out an HAV.... but 3 or 4 should have the ability to kill it. In EVE, an assault frigate would be hard pressed to kill a battleship... but 5 Assault Frigates? Hey genius, what do you think the nerf/buffs do to achieve balance? Killing a cloaked scout is not an unrealistic expectation, as it can easily be done by using one of it's hard counters, the Mass Driver. Can you expect to reasonably kill an HAV with one if it's hard counters, the Swarm Launcher? Your comparing a game with no theoretical limit on how many units you can field to a game with a limit of 16 units. Also, yes soloing HAVs were a thing. It was a thing in Codex, a thing in Chromosome, and a thing in all of Uprising 1.0 - Uprising 1.6. The difficulty of soloing an HAV should be proportional to the difficulty of operating one. You've yet to supply a valid reason as to why HAVs and vehicles should not be soloed, which brings me back to my original point: Atiim wrote: In a game, one person should be able to win against one other person if they use something designed to be their hard counter; and they should be able to do it with reasonable expectations. Otherwise, that unit becomes better than every other unit in said game, and there becomes no point in running anything else other than that item. That serves to remove all diversity from the game, which supposed to be one of this game's 'selling' points. Care to actually refute as opposed to creating a wall of text this time? Principus Shmoof Triariian wrote: And if balancing the game was so freaking easy, why isn't it balanced? Why isn't there more of a link to EVE? Simple. Dev time is focused on nerfing and buffing the whiney players who can't deal with something killing them. If it needs to be balanced then by all means do so, but if it really doesn't... then boo hoo you died. You want the game to be better? I have the answer, and there is even a song done by CCP Who said balancing the game was easy? The reason why balance hasn't been achieved is because in order to achieve it, you first have to look at many different aspects and game mechanics and see how they tie in with each other, otherwise you'll risk balancing one aspect, but creating an imbalance in another. No, it is not. CCP has already stated that there are multiple teams of developers who work on different aspects of the game. Balancing the game does not hinder content because the team responsible for balancing the game is not the same people who create game content. So basically your pondering on whether or not DUST needs to be balanced? Instant loss of credibility. Principus Shmoof Triariian wrote: H.T.F.U Less nerf/buff, more content please Hmm... Considering how you've said in an earlier post about how you don''t want to return to 1.6, It's safe to say that you were crying about AV in 1.6, making your statement hypocritical. #LivingLikeLarry [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6634	Posted - 2014.04.12 13:46:00 - [32] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: So that we don't return to previous 1.7 where any militia scrub could solo a tank. That was a myth. No good tanker was ever soloed by MLT AV. #LivingLikeLarry [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Alabastor 'TheBlaster' Alcar Silver Bullet Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 475	Posted - 2014.04.12 14:33:00 - [33] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: rithu wrote: AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team Then so should vehicles. Vehicles should be pretty **** without team work, just like AV if you want to be a one man av and be effective at it u need to skill into a particle canon, all it takes is 2-3 shots un-modded
Fire of Prometheus Alpha Response Command 4227	Posted - 2014.04.12 15:03:00 - [34] - Quote rithu wrote: AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team Tanking is never supposed to be a one man thing, yet here we are..... Alpha Response Command (ALREC) The premier training corp for commandos. Apply today!
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1994	Posted - 2014.04.12 15:43:00 - [35] - Quote It's still trying to solo a tank. And yet again, the triple rep fit is good against infantry only with a minimal amount of hostile AV, which does not include a PRO forge gun. Minimal AV is 2 guys using the Anti-Armor Starter Fit, on their own, rather than working together to chase away the tank. My Wiyrkomi forge works wonders against BPO LAVs. You could bring in a Sica with one damage mod and one shield hardener, and very easily destroy that tank. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
NextDark Knight Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 358	Posted - 2014.04.12 16:02:00 - [36] - Quote Firstly.. You sometimes have to wait up to a minute for your skills to catchup with the server. Meaning you have to sit in your fully protoed out Sental CK.0 before you can start using your forge gun. in it's current state the Forge Gun will not fire. Secondly, All the cry hards removed all the mass driver properties from the Forge Gun (They where shown preferred treatment by CCP). Your chance of staying alive in that suit is harsh cause your choices are fit no tank or some tank and not be able to move. The good tankers can blap your CK.0 suit before you fire your 2nd or 3rd shot. This being if Infantry hasn't spotted you already in which case you are as good as dead anyway and you can kiss 160,000 isk GOODBYE. Then if you happen to kill the tank, you are then stuck in a gimped suit and if you don't have access to a supply depot kiss your 160k away again. Honestly I rather see the Tanks and DS be a little stronger and have the Rate of Fire back on the Forge and a Micro bump to the splash damage. BONUS : The 1 Second recharge is also bugged.. I noticed if you taken into armor it will recharge after 1 second, unless you get shot from 2 sources .5 seconds later and you'll be back on the 4 second delay in armor . Forge Changes needed Officer Splash 3.0, Proto 2.7 Advanced 2.5 Standard 2.1. Original ROF needs to return!
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1995	Posted - 2014.04.12 17:01:00 - [37] - Quote Fire of Prometheus wrote: rithu wrote: AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team Tanking is never supposed to be a one man thing, yet here we are..... Show me a game that requires more than one person to operate an armored vehicle. Because that's what this is. A game. Even in World of Tanks, the 4-man tank crew is controlled by a single player. Because that too is a game. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 3303	Posted - 2014.04.12 17:08:00 - [38] - Quote 1 Proto breach FG shot to the weakspot will kill it Infact that kills all HAV with no hardeners on As for 4 AFG shots to kill it thats fair enough, its only 2 shots if there is 2 of you But its only good for raping infantry, any rail or missile tank will pop it
Beld Errmon 1589	Posted - 2014.04.12 17:11:00 - [39] - Quote wait did i miss something, why are people talking like there isn't an anti-armor AV weapon? did swarms get changed to anti shield or something when i wasn't looking? been a while since i paid attention while handling one but they should be doing 120% to armor by default, then throw on the proficiency bonus. Rise and rise again until lambs become lions.
BAD FURRY SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 779	Posted - 2014.04.12 17:15:00 - [40] - Quote Virtual Riot wrote: This is the math for a Caldari Ck.0 Sent with max proficiency skills and 4 complex damage mods using an Ishukone Assault Forge Gun, vs a Madrugar using 2 complex heavy armor reps and 1 enhanced armor rep because you can't fit 3 complex armor reps. Everything is using max skills, for a true end game comparison. TL;DR at bottom Forge Gun stats, prof 5, 4 pro dmg mods for Ishukone Assault Forge Gun 1500 base 1500 / (4 dmg mods).8572 = 1749.88 (1750) vs shield 1740 / (10% weakness to shield)1.1 = 1591 vs armor 1750 / (prof + 10% bonus to armor)0.75 = 2333.3 (2334) Versus tripple rep maddy 2 complex heavy reps 1 enhanced heavy rep = 512.5 (513) armor / s 1200 shield recharge delay 6s dep recharge delay 11.25s recharge rate 96 4000 armor 513 armor / s 1st shot 1200 / 1.1 = 1333.3 (1334) 1500 - 1334 = 166 left over 166 / 0.75 = 221.3 (222) 4000 - 222 = 3778 armor 0 shield, 3778 armor after first shot 2nd shot 2.25 IAFG charge time between shots 2.25 x 513(armor repair rate/s) = 1154.25 (1155) 3778 + 1155 = more than 4000 so he is back to full 4000 armor 4000 - 2334 = 1666 armor left over 3rd shot 1666 + 1155 = 2821 2821 - 2334 = 487 armor left over 4th shot 487 + 1155 = 1642 1642 - 2334 = -692 armor left over (dead) As we can see here, it takes 4 direct hits from the dedicated AV suit to kill this Madrugar. This is considering the AV player hits all his shots in the least amount of time. He must hit all his shots, if he misses one shot he has to repeat the whole process over agin. This gives the Madrugar player 6.75 second to retreat or find cover before being dead. Is it balanced? I just like putting the info out there and letting people take from it what they will. TL;DR 4 shots from an IAFG to kill a triple rep mady with max skills and max damage. (he is dead on the 4th shot) Yes this is fair your running sole are you not so YES !!!! now take a step back and think if you only had a friend join you with a SL or a 2nd FG. that tanks now dead and you only needed 2 players that and you for get to talk about the weak spot on the maddy in the back. so on one hand a skilled play can kill the tanks BY HIMSELF !! On the other hand add in a 2nd player using AV you Kill the maddy a lot faster ! so like i said and CCP will say YES THIS IS FAIR ! Yes i am a Undead Hell Wolf ... nice to meat you!
BAD FURRY SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 779	Posted - 2014.04.12 17:30:00 - [41] - Quote Funkmaster Whale wrote: rithu wrote: AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team Why bother with AV then? When you just log on and want to have fun solo, you're out of luck then I assume? Nonsense, if AV can't get the job done I'll just drop my Militia Sica fit with 2x damage mods and 3-shot your tank in a matter of seconds. You're assumption is wrong. AV should be just as effective against vehicles as vehicles are against infantry. There is nothing about a tank that makes you special and require multiple people to destroy. Quote: There is nothing about a tank that makes you special and require multiple people to destroy umm yes there is ! 228.000~305,775 isk for the maddy with and with out fac blaster as avd to get this maddy you need 5~6 mill SP give or take so ya something that,s needs 5-6 mill SP costs 200-300k for just one and can be blown up on the drop or blown up in one hit with a Bombchu yes there is something special and the roll it plays is to be a TANK ! not a drop suit. Yes i am a Undead Hell Wolf ... nice to meat you!
Principus Shmoof Triariian Sardianii-Triarii Planetary Services Armed-n-Hammered 104	Posted - 2014.04.12 18:51:00 - [42] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Principus Shmoof Triariian wrote: Atiim wrote: Principus Shmoof Triariian wrote: You're putting a giant weapon on treads against a person, of course it will win if the pilot isn't an idiot. Remember the days when anyone with a swarm launcher and AV Grenades melted all tanks? Do you wanna go back to that? Oh boy, another nerf, and then a few patches later, another buff. what would we accomplish doing that? Nothing. I'd rather have how it is stay and be able to interact with EVE more than more nerf, buffs, nerfs, buffs. That statement is fallacious. In a game, one person should be able to win against one other person if they use something designed to be their hard counter; and they should be able to do it with reasonable expectations. Otherwise, that unit becomes better than every other unit in said game, and there becomes no point in running anything else other than that item. That serves to remove all diversity from the game, which supposed to be one of this game's 'selling' points. Balancing the game wouldn't hinder the time it would take to strengthen the EVE/DUST link, as they are being worked on by different teams of developers; and I'm pretty sure the majority of the playerbase would much rather have a balanced game where everyone's role is equally fun and viable, as opposed to strengthening the link to a game who's playerbase would love nothing more than for CCP to shut this game down. Balance would be nice, too bad that isn't what the nerfs/buffs do. they nerf, and they buff, they don't balance. If it was balanced, why would you want to nerf it? If it was balanced, why would you want to buff it? Just because you can't kill the scout that is cloaked doesn't mean it is OP, because you might be pursuing unrealistic goals if what you're using can't actually kill cloaky scouts, so you go to the forums and whine until the end of time. If it's broken, fix it, if it isn't and you're just bad, HTFU yah scrub. AV isn't a solo thing for HAVs, it never has been. And it shouldn't be easy to do. A single swarm launcher shouldn't be able to take out an HAV.... but 3 or 4 should have the ability to kill it. In EVE, an assault frigate would be hard pressed to kill a battleship... but 5 Assault Frigates? And if balancing the game was so freaking easy, why isn't it balanced? Why isn't there more of a link to EVE? Simple. Dev time is focused on nerfing and buffing the whiney players who can't deal with something killing them. If it needs to be balanced then by all means do so, but if it really doesn't... then boo hoo you died. You want the game to be better? I have the answer, and there is even a song done by CCP H.T.F.U Less nerf/buff, more content please In dust we are limited to 16v16.. If AV can't solo a tank it creates unbalance. You're eve statement is shortsighted. Ttk on vehicles needs to be high so that we don't return to previous 1.7 where any militia scrub could solo a tank. In order to then balance, tanks can not be so effective against infantry. This is the issue. Not exactly sure how to solve it yet though. The nerf to Swarms was definitely a step in the wrong direction. The only conclusion I can reach is to give tanks a much higher HP but a much lower regen. Steady impacts from AV should cause tanks to retreat for a larger length of time than how it currently sits. Damage to vehicle WP was a good step too and has helped immensely in increasing AV incentives. My EVE statement is shortsighted? How so? Most fights I get in EVE are often terribly unbalanced towards one side, and when it is an even fight in terms of numbers, those numbers are often in the range of 16 vs 16, though it can be more. Most likely, HAVs are fine how they are, and we are missing half of them. Furthermore, the Tank Destroyers have been removed (Enforcers), so there goes to anti HAV HAV, the Amarr and Minmatar weapons are not in the game either, so there isn't the EM and Explosive damage either (Yes swarms but Minmatar do explosive better). I can assure you if the Minny HAV with an Autocannon turret was in the game, or the Minny AV weapon, the Tri Rep Madrugar would have a devastating counter. Also, when AV could solo tanks, AV was overpowered. When they can't kill one with 5 people, AV is underpowered. Where is the balance? We're better off now than we were. So don't go asking for a nerf to tanks or a buff for AV, because then things get OP or UP, and nothing will be accomplished
Principus Shmoof Triariian Sardianii-Triarii Planetary Services Armed-n-Hammered 104	Posted - 2014.04.12 18:55:00 - [43] - Quote BAD FURRY wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: rithu wrote: AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team Why bother with AV then? When you just log on and want to have fun solo, you're out of luck then I assume? Nonsense, if AV can't get the job done I'll just drop my Militia Sica fit with 2x damage mods and 3-shot your tank in a matter of seconds. You're assumption is wrong. AV should be just as effective against vehicles as vehicles are against infantry. There is nothing about a tank that makes you special and require multiple people to destroy. Quote: There is nothing about a tank that makes you special and require multiple people to destroy umm yes there is ! 228.000~305,775 isk for the maddy with and with out fac blaster as avd to get this maddy you need 5~6 mill SP give or take so ya something that,s needs 5-6 mill SP costs 200-300k for just one and can be blown up on the drop or blown up in one hit with a Bombchu yes there is something special and the roll it plays is to be a TANK ! not a drop suit. Again, when one guy could solo a tank, AV was OP, and it was quite unfair for HAV pilots. And if you can't kill the tank, avoid it, or get people to kill it
Crimson Cerberes Hammer Of Light Vanguard of the Phoenix 548	Posted - 2014.04.12 19:24:00 - [44] - Quote BAD FURRY wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: rithu wrote: AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team Why bother with AV then? When you just log on and want to have fun solo, you're out of luck then I assume? Nonsense, if AV can't get the job done I'll just drop my Militia Sica fit with 2x damage mods and 3-shot your tank in a matter of seconds. You're assumption is wrong. AV should be just as effective against vehicles as vehicles are against infantry. There is nothing about a tank that makes you special and require multiple people to destroy. Quote: There is nothing about a tank that makes you special and require multiple people to destroy umm yes there is ! 228.000~305,775 isk for the maddy with and with out fac blaster as avd to get this maddy you need 5~6 mill SP give or take so ya something that,s needs 5-6 mill SP costs 200-300k for just one and can be blown up on the drop or blown up in one hit with a Bombchu yes there is something special and the roll it plays is to be a TANK ! not a drop suit. Look at how stupid you are. Milita dropsuti worth 0isk with 0 sp can easily kill a 200k isk dropsuit with 30 mil sp behind it. You are just horrible at dust and are afraid for your crutch. "We are not ever going to respec weaponry and dropsuit command because the majority of our Aurum gear falls within those
Crimson Cerberes Hammer Of Light Vanguard of the Phoenix 548	Posted - 2014.04.12 19:26:00 - [45] - Quote Principus Shmoof Triariian wrote: BAD FURRY wrote: Funkmaster Whale wrote: rithu wrote: AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team Why bother with AV then? When you just log on and want to have fun solo, you're out of luck then I assume? Nonsense, if AV can't get the job done I'll just drop my Militia Sica fit with 2x damage mods and 3-shot your tank in a matter of seconds. You're assumption is wrong. AV should be just as effective against vehicles as vehicles are against infantry. There is nothing about a tank that makes you special and require multiple people to destroy. Quote: There is nothing about a tank that makes you special and require multiple people to destroy umm yes there is ! 228.000~305,775 isk for the maddy with and with out fac blaster as avd to get this maddy you need 5~6 mill SP give or take so ya something that,s needs 5-6 mill SP costs 200-300k for just one and can be blown up on the drop or blown up in one hit with a Bombchu yes there is something special and the roll it plays is to be a TANK ! not a drop suit. Again, when one guy could solo a tank, AV was OP, and it was quite unfair for HAV pilots. And if you can't kill the tank, avoid it, or get people to kill it No, when one person could solo a tank it was fair... tanks were just overpriced. Now tanks are cheap and one person can't solo a tank. Oh but tanks can solo squads..... God the amount of stupid in this thread is epic. "We are not ever going to respec weaponry and dropsuit command because the majority of our Aurum gear falls within those
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 2750	Posted - 2014.04.12 20:26:00 - [46] - Quote @ OP: -forgegun is bugged and most of the shots are blanks -you really think the tank will stay in line of sight so you can get 4 hits in a row on him? keep dreaming -fuel injector will be activated stright after the 1st hit or maybe after the 2nd which means you will see speedy gonzales in action. Head of public relations from The Rainbow Effect.
Dauth Jenkins Ultramarine Corp 478	Posted - 2014.04.12 20:36:00 - [47] - Quote Virtual Riot wrote: Ziiro Celeste wrote: Someone has been watching Pyrex videos eh? ;) I like how he says its so easy to die in a triple rep maddy It is. Triple Rep tanks are like shield suits. The best counter is alpha damage. Rail tank, multiple forge guns, or large missiles due the trick. Also, remember, this is at proto, so it's not like they didn't spend time to get the tank. It's not like the MLT Tank problems of 1.7 where everyone was able to get a tank that was virtually indestructible. -Sincerely --The Dual Swarm Commando
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6654	Posted - 2014.04.12 21:24:00 - [48] - Quote BAD FURRY wrote: umm yes there is ! 228.000~305,775 isk for the maddy with and with out fac blaster as avd to get this maddy you need 5~6 mill SP give or take so ya something that,s needs 5-6 mill SP costs 200-300k for just one and can be blown up on the drop or blown up in one hit with a Bombchu yes there is something special and the roll it plays is to be a TANK ! not a drop suit. That's not special. The investment of an AV player is 15,222,620 SP, which far exceeds 5-6m SP, and the cost of a good AV suit can range from 175-230k. Factor in multiple deaths and your looking at a total cost of 7-900k ISK. Point negated AV suits can be OHK'ed by 80GJ Railguns, XT-1 Missile Launchers, Plasma Cannons, Remote Explosives, Nova Knives, Shotguns, Warbarge Strikes, Orbital S Strikes, Sniper Rifles, and a whole bunch of other weapons. Point negated The AV roll it plays is "ANTI-TANK". Point negated So by your "logic", I guess AVers should be the only ones soloing. #LivingLikeLarry [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6654	Posted - 2014.04.12 21:25:00 - [49] - Quote Principus Shmoof Triariian wrote: Again, when one guy could solo a tank, AV was OP, and it was quite unfair for HAV pilots. And if you can't kill the tank, avoid it, or get people to kill it Care to explain why it was unfair? I've been tanking since 1.2, and I've never had a problem with being soloed. #LivingLikeLarry [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 6656	Posted - 2014.04.12 21:30:00 - [50] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: 1 Proto breach FG shot to the weakspot will kill it Infact that kills all HAV with no hardeners on Nope. Nothing Certain wrote: Let's look at the numbers instead of the claims. A militia Sica from the store comes with 4150 HP A Soma, 5200 A Wirkomi BFG does 2100 damage. If you have Lev.5 Prof 5 w/ Complex Heavy Damage Modifier and you hit the fuel cells and get the 168% damage bonus you get 4260 damage. So, you can take out a Sica in one shot, given these conditions. You can't take out a Soma or any other tank. IIf the Sica has any shield extenders or armor plate you can't one shot it. If you only have prof. 4, you can't one shot it. If you miss the fuel cells, you don't even come close. I'd file this claim as possible, but implausible. Takahiro Kashuken wrote: But its only good for raping infantry, any rail or missile tank will pop it And that has anything to do with V/AV balance, how exactly? #LivingLikeLarry [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Beld Errmon 1592	Posted - 2014.04.13 02:27:00 - [51] - Quote Careful Atiim you lobbied for months on behalf of the poor down trodden AV players, and then CCP brought out a build that even tankers found too OP and generally crap, if you get up on that white pony again what will CCP do this time, introduce the flying HAV with 2 mins of invincibility mode? for what its worth triple rep maddies are ridiculous, but its a logical thing to do considering the armor hardeners nerf has made it so it actually makes more sense to fit plates then hardeners (30-40% more HP is greater then 25% resistance) one of the reasons CCP screwed up tanking and made militia tanks OP is because they want new players to have a chance in tank combat, a triple rep madruger makes that concept a joke, a militia blaster tank won't break through its reps, and most new players won't have the accuracy and tactical knowledge to use a missile or rail tank against one. Rise and rise again until lambs become lions.
Virtual Riot Rebels New Republic INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS 331	Posted - 2014.04.13 05:22:00 - [52] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: @ OP: -forgegun is bugged and most of the shots are blanks -you really think the tank will stay in line of sight so you can get 4 hits in a row on him? keep dreaming -fuel injector will be activated stright after the 1st hit or maybe after the 2nd which means you will see speedy gonzales in action. I am aware of all of those things. I don't understand, whats the point you are trying to make. Those things have nothing to do with the OP. 1. I stated what I planned to figure out 2. I figured it out 3. I presented the results. At no point in my post will you find and opinion. No opinions no loaded words no bs Math is math. True and sound. Form your own opinion, I'm keeping mine to myself.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 3309	Posted - 2014.04.13 09:38:00 - [53] - Quote Atiim wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: 1 Proto breach FG shot to the weakspot will kill it Infact that kills all HAV with no hardeners on Nope. Yes it does I have done it on all HAVs
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 803	Posted - 2014.04.14 23:07:00 - [54] - Quote Your math is bad just like in the other thread. 1500 damage 3 complex heat sinks is 1.051.04351.02851.0135=1.142 so the damage modifiers that you can multiply to the bases are: 1.1421.151.1=1.445 (armor) and 1.1420.9=1.0278 (shield) This is 1541 damage to ashield per volley and 2167 per volley to armor. I might update this post later with more corrections. Fixing swarms
KalOfTheRathi Nec Tributis 1190	Posted - 2014.04.15 01:07:00 - [55] - Quote Virtual Riot wrote: As we can see here, it takes 4 direct hits from the dedicated AV suit to kill this Madrugar. This is considering the AV player hits all his shots in the least amount of time. He must hit all his shots, if he misses one shot he has to repeat the whole process over again. One thing as a tanker that irritates me about the constant QQ from non-tankers (read as AV players or wannabes) is that missing one shot bit. That applies to tanks as well. Miss part of the missile volley, rail gun gets to reply while retreating or blasters tear the tank apart while attacking. Overheating is the bane of the other weapons. Now we all get to run out ammo as well so there is the reload, total ammo and overheat to deal with. That and the large weapons do less splash damage than the smaller versions (which cost exactly the same amount of SP). Multiple damage mods limits what a shield tanker can do, BTW. As I mostly run armor that is best left to others. Sica and Gunni tankers that run multiple damage mods are easy pickings for the opposition. If they miss one round or overheat if two tanks are in play against them they are dead and their expensive tank is as well. In all aspects of Dust if you screw up the attack you will need to start over. Get a clue, share it with your friends. And so it goes.
Youmadbroyolo Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2014.04.15 15:46:00 - [56] - Quote Principus Shmoof Triariian wrote: Cat Merc wrote: rithu wrote: AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team Then so should vehicles. Vehicles should be pretty **** without team work, just like AV Not entirely. HAVs are designed to be able to work alone, due to their survive-ability. But here's the thing, an HAV alone with no sort of direction isn't as good, but an HAV with a good squad commander who's giving the pilot orders can be a force to be reckoned with, as team work always will amplify somethings effectiveness. Just because there isn't another HAV, doesn't mean it's alone, it has a team to work with. Basically, teamwork is needed to get more out of your HAV, and more out of your AV survivability is "relative" not absolute scrub. AV is the ANTI to the Tank. Thus the bane of its existance, show me a game where a counter is supposed to take more effort/skill/teamwork then the think it fights against? in any RTS you would just throw more of those tanks at the enemy knowing that the counter is weak.

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