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        |  Virtual Riot
 Rebels New Republic
 INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS
 
 322
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 17:25:00 -
          [1] - Quote 
 This is the math for a Caldari Ck.0 Sent with max proficiency skills and 4 complex damage mods using an Ishukone Assault Forge Gun, vs a Madrugar using 2 complex heavy armor reps and 1 enhanced armor rep because you can't fit 3 complex armor reps. Everything is using max skills, for a true end game comparison.
 
 TL;DR at bottom
 
 Forge Gun stats, prof 5, 4 pro dmg mods for Ishukone Assault Forge Gun
 1500 base
 1500 / (4 dmg mods).8572 = 1749.88 (1750)
 
 vs shield
 1740 / (10% weakness to shield)1.1 = 1591
 
 vs armor
 
 1750 / (prof + 10% bonus to armor)0.75 = 2333.3 (2334)
 
 Versus tripple rep maddy
 2 complex heavy reps
 1 enhanced heavy rep
 = 512.5 (513) armor / s
 
 1200 shield
 recharge delay 6s
 dep recharge delay 11.25s
 recharge rate 96
 4000 armor
 513 armor / s
 
 
 
 1st shot
 
 1200 / 1.1 = 1333.3 (1334)
 1500 - 1334 = 166 left over
 
 166 / 0.75 = 221.3 (222)
 
 4000 - 222 = 3778 armor
 
 0 shield, 3778 armor after first shot
 
 
 2nd shot
 2.25 IAFG charge time between shots
 
 2.25 x 513(armor repair rate/s) = 1154.25 (1155)
 
 3778 + 1155 = more than 4000 so he is back to full 4000 armor
 
 4000 - 2334 = 1666 armor left over
 
 3rd shot
 
 1666 + 1155 = 2821
 
 2821 - 2334 = 487 armor left over
 
 4th shot
 
 487 + 1155 = 1642
 
 1642 - 2334 = -692 armor left over (dead)
 
 
 As we can see here, it takes 4 direct hits from the dedicated AV suit to kill this Madrugar. This is considering the AV player hits all his shots in the least amount of time. He must hit all his shots, if he misses one shot he has to repeat the whole process over agin. This gives the Madrugar player 6.75 second to retreat or find cover before being dead.
 
 Is it balanced? I just like putting the info out there and letting people take from it what they will.
 
 TL;DR
 4 shots from an IAFG to kill a triple rep mady with max skills and max damage. (he is dead on the 4th shot)
 | 
      
      
        |  Ziiro Celeste
 Ikomari-Onu Enforcement
 Caldari State
 
 54
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 17:30:00 -
          [2] - Quote 
 Someone has been watching Pyrex videos eh?
 
 The forgotten "A" in AAA | 
      
      
        |  rithu
 Max-Pain-inc
 Dark Taboo
 
 40
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 17:30:00 -
          [3] - Quote 
 AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team
 
 
 You cant see me caldari scouts ;) | 
      
      
        |  Virtual Riot
 Rebels New Republic
 INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS
 
 322
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 17:31:00 -
          [4] - Quote 
 
 Ziiro Celeste wrote:Someone has been watching Pyrex videos eh?  
 ;)
 
 I like how he says its so easy to die in a triple rep maddy
 | 
      
      
        |  Cat Merc
 Ahrendee Mercenaries
 Dirt Nap Squad.
 
 8250
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 17:32:00 -
          [5] - Quote 
 
 rithu wrote:AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team
 Then so should vehicles.
 Vehicles should be pretty **** without team work, just like AV
  
 My intentions is to have a fun game for everyone. If I seem to be biased, I have good hard data to back it up. | 
      
      
        |  Chunky Munkey
 Amarr Templars
 Amarr Empire
 
 3861
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 17:34:00 -
          [6] - Quote 
 And an Ion Pistol can OHK a scout. That doesn't make them balanced.
 
 No. | 
      
      
        |  Atiim
 Living Like Larry Schwag
 
 6589
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 17:35:00 -
          [7] - Quote 
 
 rithu wrote:AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team
 That assertion is a fallacy.
 
 #LivingLikeLarry[s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND | 
      
      
        |  Judge Rhadamanthus
 Amarr Templar One
 
 1871
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 17:41:00 -
          [8] - Quote 
 
 Atiim wrote:rithu wrote:AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team
 That assertion is a fallacy. 
 It's not a fallacy, it's an assumed premise. but I agree. There is no evidence to support that premise.
 
 Everything Dropship youtube channel
 my Community Spotlight | 
      
      
        |  Principus Shmoof Triariian
 Sardianii-Triarii Planetary Services
 Armed-n-Hammered
 
 93
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 17:43:00 -
          [9] - Quote 
 I see your point, but here's a better idea.
 
 Instead of trying to incite a discussion over whether it's OP or not, let's ask the Devs to give us the Minmatar AV weapon. That will deal explosive damage and be the direct counter to the Armor of a Madruger. Or a Minny Tank with an artillery cannon or autocannon that deal explosive damage. The game is incomplete, and there will be people who will demand that HAVs receive a nerf, when the counters to them are not fully implemented. An Amarr tank and Amarr AV weapon will bring the major EM damage dealers and be the counter to shield. The problem with AV and HAVs is that they just are incomplete, and don't mirror the design of EVE that the game is following well enough yet
 | 
      
      
        |  Principus Shmoof Triariian
 Sardianii-Triarii Planetary Services
 Armed-n-Hammered
 
 93
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 17:47:00 -
          [10] - Quote 
 
 Cat Merc wrote:rithu wrote:AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team
 Then so should vehicles. Vehicles should be pretty **** without team work, just like AV   Not entirely. HAVs are designed to be able to work alone, due to their survive-ability.
 
 But here's the thing, an HAV alone with no sort of direction isn't as good, but an HAV with a good squad commander who's giving the pilot orders can be a force to be reckoned with, as team work always will amplify somethings effectiveness. Just because there isn't another HAV, doesn't mean it's alone, it has a team to work with.
 
 Basically, teamwork is needed to get more out of your HAV, and more out of your AV
 | 
      
      
        |  Cat Merc
 Ahrendee Mercenaries
 Dirt Nap Squad.
 
 8251
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 17:50:00 -
          [11] - Quote 
 
 Principus Shmoof Triariian wrote:Cat Merc wrote:rithu wrote:AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team
 Then so should vehicles. Vehicles should be pretty **** without team work, just like AV    Not entirely. HAVs are designed to be able to work alone, due to their survive-ability.  But here's the thing, an HAV alone with no sort of direction isn't as good, but an HAV with a good squad commander who's giving the pilot orders can be a force to be reckoned with, as team work always will amplify somethings effectiveness. Just because there isn't another HAV, doesn't mean it's alone, it has a team to work with.  Basically, teamwork is needed to get more out of your HAV, and more out of your AV But HAV solo and AV solo, most of the time the HAV will win.
 
 My intentions is to have a fun game for everyone. If I seem to be biased, I have good hard data to back it up. | 
      
      
        |  Joseph Ridgeson
 WarRavens
 League of Infamy
 
 1126
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 17:55:00 -
          [12] - Quote 
 Triple Repairer Madrugar is an infantry and blaster eater. Both of those do very sustained damage which is where it wins; it's the Drake of DUST. It won't win against anything with front loaded damage such as a Railgun or a Missile tank. For infantry, they are kind of forced into having two guys with Forge weapons or Remote Explosives. I don't use the fit often because I prefer a different fit that I feel is more rounded.
 
 Balanced? I don't like to get into regards of balance when it comes to AV-HAV since 1.7 because I have 15 million invested into HAV meaning I cannot in good faith say I am being impartial. I will state, however, is that fit was around back when hardeners were 40/60 and no one complained because their ire was being aimed at Staggered Hardener - Repairer.
 
 "People that quote themselves in signatures confuse me." -Joseph Ridgeson | 
      
      
        |  Dovallis Martan JenusKoll
 Osmon Surveillance
 Caldari State
 
 716
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 17:56:00 -
          [13] - Quote 
 AV is meant to be possible by one player, yes, but it's meant to be harder than just destroy because you can see it...
 
 I typically end up doing about ~5200 damage to my target in under 3 seconds.
 Needless to say I love rep stackers as opposed to hardener users.
 
 If you can read this, it means you are reading.  Unless you are skimming | 
      
      
        |  Principus Shmoof Triariian
 Sardianii-Triarii Planetary Services
 Armed-n-Hammered
 
 96
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 17:59:00 -
          [14] - Quote 
 
 Cat Merc wrote:Principus Shmoof Triariian wrote:Cat Merc wrote:rithu wrote:AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team
 Then so should vehicles. Vehicles should be pretty **** without team work, just like AV    Not entirely. HAVs are designed to be able to work alone, due to their survive-ability.  But here's the thing, an HAV alone with no sort of direction isn't as good, but an HAV with a good squad commander who's giving the pilot orders can be a force to be reckoned with, as team work always will amplify somethings effectiveness. Just because there isn't another HAV, doesn't mean it's alone, it has a team to work with.  Basically, teamwork is needed to get more out of your HAV, and more out of your AV But HAV solo and AV solo, most of the time the HAV will win. You're putting a giant weapon on treads against a person, of course it will win if the pilot isn't an idiot. Remember the days when anyone with a swarm launcher and AV Grenedes melted all tanks? Do you wanna go back to that? Oh boy, another nerf, and then a few patches later, another buff. what would we accomplish doing that? Nothing. I'd rather have how it is stay and be able to interact with EVE more than more nerf, buffs, nerfs, buffs.
 | 
      
      
        |  Atiim
 Living Like Larry Schwag
 
 6590
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 18:00:00 -
          [15] - Quote 
 
 Joseph Ridgeson wrote:Triple Repairer Madrugar is an infantry and blaster eater. Both of those do very sustained damage which is where it wins; it's the Drake of DUST. It won't win against anything with front loaded damage such as a Railgun or a Missile tank. For infantry, they are kind of forced into having two guys with Forge weapons or Remote Explosives. I don't use the fit often because I prefer a different fit that I feel is more rounded. The main problem with this, is the fact that the fact that a weapon who's profile has the strongest Armor bias in the game cannot effectively destroy it.
 
 That's about as balanced as a Scrambler Rifle not being able to kill a Minmatar Frame.
 
 #LivingLikeLarry[s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND | 
      
      
        |  Mobius Kaethis
 Molon Labe.
 General Tso's Alliance
 
 1394
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 18:06:00 -
          [16] - Quote 
 
 rithu wrote:AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team
 
 Since when?
 
 I hate it when people make this argument since av has never been a matter of whole team coordination or even squad coordination. Heck, since proxies came out I have been able to easily solo any ground vehicle with very little personal risk (a risk reward strategy that closely mirrors that of tanks).
 
 really what we need is AV that is capable if solo kills but only for elite (read highly skilled and high sp) av players. For most people it should take a group effort, but soloing tanks should be something infantry can aspire to.
 
 Fun > Realism | 
      
      
        |  Supernus Gigas
 sNk Syndicate
 
 744
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 18:06:00 -
          [17] - Quote 
 I swear to cheese some of you people don't know that tanks have a weak spot. Try hitting that with a Breach FG and see what happens.
 
 FIRE UP THE HEAVY MEAT GRINDER! WE'RE HAVIN' CLONE BURGERS TONIGHT, BOYS! | 
      
      
        |  Atiim
 Living Like Larry Schwag
 
 6590
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 18:10:00 -
          [18] - Quote 
 
 Principus Shmoof Triariian wrote:You're putting a giant weapon on treads against a person, of course it will win if the pilot isn't an idiot. Remember the days when anyone with a swarm launcher and AV Grenades melted all tanks? Do you wanna go back to that? Oh boy, another nerf, and then a few patches later, another buff. what would we accomplish doing that? Nothing. I'd rather have how it is stay and be able to interact with EVE more than more nerf, buffs, nerfs, buffs.
 That statement is fallacious.
 
 In a game, one person should be able to win against one other person if they use something designed to be their hard counter; and they should be able to do it with reasonable expectations. Otherwise, that unit becomes better than every other unit in said game, and there becomes no point in running anything else other than that item.
 
 That serves to remove all diversity from the game, which supposed to be one of this game's 'selling' points.
 
 Balancing the game wouldn't hinder the time it would take to strengthen the EVE/DUST link, as they are being worked on by different teams of developers; and I'm pretty sure the majority of the playerbase would much rather have a balanced game where everyone's role is equally fun and viable, as opposed to strengthening the link to a game who's playerbase would love nothing more than for CCP to shut this game down.
 
 #LivingLikeLarry[s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND | 
      
      
        |  Atiim
 Living Like Larry Schwag
 
 6590
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 18:16:00 -
          [19] - Quote 
 
 Supernus Gigas wrote:I swear to cheese some of you people don't know that tanks have a weak spot. Try hitting that with a Breach FG and see what happens. Didn't someone already disprove your assertion in another thread?
 
 I guess I'll just paste his quote:
 
 
 Nothing Certain wrote:Let's look at the numbers instead of the claims.
 A militia Sica from the store comes with 4150 HP
 A Soma, 5200
 A Wirkomi BFG does 2100 damage. If you have Lev.5 Prof 5 w/ Complex Heavy Damage Modifier and you hit the fuel cells and get the 168% damage bonus you get 4260 damage. So, you can take out a Sica in one shot, given these conditions. You can't take out a Soma or any other tank. IIf the Sica has any shield extenders or armor plate you can't one shot it. If you only have prof. 4, you can't one shot it. If you miss the fuel cells, you don't even come close. I'd file this claim as possible, but implausible.
 
 #LivingLikeLarry[s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND | 
      
      
        |  Principus Shmoof Triariian
 Sardianii-Triarii Planetary Services
 Armed-n-Hammered
 
 97
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 18:23:00 -
          [20] - Quote 
 
 Atiim wrote:Principus Shmoof Triariian wrote:You're putting a giant weapon on treads against a person, of course it will win if the pilot isn't an idiot. Remember the days when anyone with a swarm launcher and AV Grenades melted all tanks? Do you wanna go back to that? Oh boy, another nerf, and then a few patches later, another buff. what would we accomplish doing that? Nothing. I'd rather have how it is stay and be able to interact with EVE more than more nerf, buffs, nerfs, buffs.
 That statement is fallacious. In a game, one person should be able to win against one other person if they use something designed to be their hard counter; and they should be able to do it with reasonable expectations. Otherwise, that unit becomes better than every other unit in said game, and there becomes no point in running anything else other than that item. That serves to remove all diversity from the game, which supposed to be one of this game's 'selling' points. Balancing the game wouldn't hinder the time it would take to strengthen the EVE/DUST link, as they are being worked on by different teams of developers; and I'm pretty sure the majority of the playerbase would much rather have a balanced game where everyone's role is equally fun and viable, as opposed to strengthening the link to a game who's playerbase would love nothing more than for CCP to shut this game down. Balance would be nice, too bad that isn't what the nerfs/buffs do. they nerf, and they buff, they don't balance. If it was balanced, why would you want to nerf it? If it was balanced, why would you want to buff it? Just because you can't kill the scout that is cloaked doesn't mean it is OP, because you might be pursuing unrealistic goals if what you're using can't actually kill cloaky scouts, so you go to the forums and whine until the end of time. If it's broken, fix it, if it isn't and you're just bad, HTFU yah scrub. AV isn't a solo thing for HAVs, it never has been. And it shouldn't be easy to do. A single swarm launcher shouldn't be able to take out an HAV.... but 3 or 4 should have the ability to kill it. In EVE, an assault frigate would be hard pressed to kill a battleship... but 5 Assault Frigates?
 
 And if balancing the game was so freaking easy, why isn't it balanced? Why isn't there more of a link to EVE? Simple. Dev time is focused on nerfing and buffing the whiney players who can't deal with something killing them. If it needs to be balanced then by all means do so, but if it really doesn't... then boo hoo you died. You want the game to be better? I have the answer, and there is even a song done by CCP
 
 H.T.F.U
 
 Less nerf/buff, more content please
 | 
      
      
        |  Harpyja
 Molon Labe.
 General Tso's Alliance
 
 1568
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 18:33:00 -
          [21] - Quote 
 
 Atiim wrote:Joseph Ridgeson wrote:Triple Repairer Madrugar is an infantry and blaster eater. Both of those do very sustained damage which is where it wins; it's the Drake of DUST. It won't win against anything with front loaded damage such as a Railgun or a Missile tank. For infantry, they are kind of forced into having two guys with Forge weapons or Remote Explosives. I don't use the fit often because I prefer a different fit that I feel is more rounded. The main problem with this, is the fact that the fact that a weapon who's profile has the strongest Armor bias in the game cannot effectively destroy it. That's about as balanced as a Scrambler Rifle not being able to kill a Minmatar Frame. You could just ask for your heavy Minmatar AV weapon that will be specialized against armor, while the forge gun is a hybrid type which isn't specialized toward either shield or armor, since the damage difference isn't that great and the proficiency skill is just rather misleading, as it isn't supposed to be anti-armor specialized.
 
 "By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32 Atiim didn't agree with limiting tanks! | 
      
      
        |  Adipem Nothi
 Nos Nothi
 
 95
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 18:52:00 -
          [22] - Quote 
 Math behind Tanks:
 GOOD =/= YOU
 
 
 Bang? | 
      
      
        |  Funkmaster Whale
 Ancient Exiles.
 
 1808
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 19:02:00 -
          [23] - Quote 
 
 rithu wrote:AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team
 Why bother with AV then?
 
 When you just log on and want to have fun solo, you're out of luck then I assume? Nonsense, if AV can't get the job done I'll just drop my Militia Sica fit with 2x damage mods and 3-shot your tank in a matter of seconds.
 
 You're assumption is wrong. AV should be just as effective against vehicles as vehicles are against infantry. There is nothing about a tank that makes you special and require multiple people to destroy.
 
 Let me play you the song of my people! | 
      
      
        |  MarasdF Loron
 Fatal Absolution
 Dirt Nap Squad.
 
 375
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 19:09:00 -
          [24] - Quote 
 
 Ziiro Celeste wrote:Someone has been watching Pyrex videos eh?  Although it is possible he has watched Pyrex's videos I fail to see what has to do with this. I have been telling this same damn thing to the AV community, just without math, ever since 1.8 came out and I haven't really been watching his videos lately. Mainly because he started to call tanks fun ever since 1.7...
 
 R.I.P. Pre-1.7 Vehicles & AV, you will be missed. | 
      
      
        |  Cat Merc
 Ahrendee Mercenaries
 Dirt Nap Squad.
 
 8256
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 19:27:00 -
          [25] - Quote 
 
 Principus Shmoof Triariian wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Principus Shmoof Triariian wrote:Cat Merc wrote:rithu wrote:AV is never supposed to be a one person thing, you need support of a good squad & team
 Then so should vehicles. Vehicles should be pretty **** without team work, just like AV    Not entirely. HAVs are designed to be able to work alone, due to their survive-ability.  But here's the thing, an HAV alone with no sort of direction isn't as good, but an HAV with a good squad commander who's giving the pilot orders can be a force to be reckoned with, as team work always will amplify somethings effectiveness. Just because there isn't another HAV, doesn't mean it's alone, it has a team to work with.  Basically, teamwork is needed to get more out of your HAV, and more out of your AV But HAV solo and AV solo, most of the time the HAV will win. You're putting a giant weapon on treads against a person, of course it will win if the pilot isn't an idiot. Remember the days when anyone with a swarm launcher and AV Grenedes melted all tanks? Do you wanna go back to that? Oh boy, another nerf, and then a few patches later, another buff. what would we accomplish doing that? Nothing. I'd rather have how it is stay and be able to interact with EVE more than more nerf, buffs, nerfs, buffs.  How about this:
 Both have difficulty taking each other down?
 
 Why should a tank have such extreme ease in taking down infantry?
 **** I ran a missile tank the other day and it seemed extremely balanced against infantry.
 I could take them down, but it was difficult to do so if they had the right positioning.
 
 Ya know, just like it's hard to take down a tank with AV?
 
 My intentions is to have a fun game for everyone. If I seem to be biased, I have good hard data to back it up. | 
      
      
        |  Adipem Nothi
 Nos Nothi
 
 97
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 19:30:00 -
          [26] - Quote 
 
 MarasdF Loron wrote:Ziiro Celeste wrote:Someone has been watching Pyrex videos eh?  Although it is possible he has watched Pyrex's videos I fail to see what has to do with this 
 Old Pyrex:
 Ran infantry. Had a p*ss stats but good perspectives.
 
 New Pyrex:
 Has run Vehicles in a game without decent AV since early 1.7.
 Perspectives presently reflect that he's lost touch with reality.
 
 Bang? | 
      
      
        |  MarasdF Loron
 Fatal Absolution
 Dirt Nap Squad.
 
 375
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 19:47:00 -
          [27] - Quote 
 
 Adipem Nothi wrote:MarasdF Loron wrote:Ziiro Celeste wrote:Someone has been watching Pyrex videos eh?  Although it is possible he has watched Pyrex's videos I fail to see what has to do with this Old Pyrex: Ran infantry. Had a p*ss stats but good perspectives. New Pyrex: Has run Vehicles in a game without decent AV since early 1.7. Perspectives presently reflect that he's lost touch with reality. I guess he used to run infantry alot more in his videos back in the day and while I agree that Pyrex's opinion about tanks is f*cked up I have to say that triple rep Maddy is the easiest tank in the game to take down.
 
 R.I.P. Pre-1.7 Vehicles & AV, you will be missed. | 
      
      
        |  Alpha 443-6732
 General Tso's Alliance
 
 452
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 19:52:00 -
          [28] - Quote 
 
 Atiim wrote:Joseph Ridgeson wrote:Triple Repairer Madrugar is an infantry and blaster eater. Both of those do very sustained damage which is where it wins; it's the Drake of DUST. It won't win against anything with front loaded damage such as a Railgun or a Missile tank. For infantry, they are kind of forced into having two guys with Forge weapons or Remote Explosives. I don't use the fit often because I prefer a different fit that I feel is more rounded. The main problem with this, is the fact that the fact that a weapon who's profile has the strongest Armor bias in the game cannot effectively destroy it. That's about as balanced as a Scrambler Rifle not being able to kill a Minmatar Frame. 
 that's what a large missile turret is for...
 
 THAT'S ALL THAT A LARGE MISSILE TURRET IS FOR
 | 
      
      
        |  Godin Thekiller
 OSG Planetary Operations
 Covert Intervention
 
 1977
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 20:05:00 -
          [29] - Quote 
 
 Atiim wrote:Joseph Ridgeson wrote:Triple Repairer Madrugar is an infantry and blaster eater. Both of those do very sustained damage which is where it wins; it's the Drake of DUST. It won't win against anything with front loaded damage such as a Railgun or a Missile tank. For infantry, they are kind of forced into having two guys with Forge weapons or Remote Explosives. I don't use the fit often because I prefer a different fit that I feel is more rounded. The main problem with this, is the fact that the fact that a weapon who's profile has the strongest Armor bias in the game cannot effectively destroy it. That's about as balanced as a Scrambler Rifle not being able to kill a Minmatar Frame. 
 That's because it doesn't do a burst of damage; it's does in pieces, kinda like a shotgun does with pellets. If that got fixed, ha,watch the fireworks.
 
 click me  Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_- | 
      
      
        |  Boot Booter
 Molon Labe.
 General Tso's Alliance
 
 447
 
 
      | Posted - 2014.04.11 20:39:00 -
          [30] - Quote 
 
 Principus Shmoof Triariian wrote:Atiim wrote:Principus Shmoof Triariian wrote:You're putting a giant weapon on treads against a person, of course it will win if the pilot isn't an idiot. Remember the days when anyone with a swarm launcher and AV Grenades melted all tanks? Do you wanna go back to that? Oh boy, another nerf, and then a few patches later, another buff. what would we accomplish doing that? Nothing. I'd rather have how it is stay and be able to interact with EVE more than more nerf, buffs, nerfs, buffs.
 That statement is fallacious. In a game, one person should be able to win against one other person if they use something designed to be their hard counter; and they should be able to do it with reasonable expectations. Otherwise, that unit becomes better than every other unit in said game, and there becomes no point in running anything else other than that item. That serves to remove all diversity from the game, which supposed to be one of this game's 'selling' points. Balancing the game wouldn't hinder the time it would take to strengthen the EVE/DUST link, as they are being worked on by different teams of developers; and I'm pretty sure the majority of the playerbase would much rather have a balanced game where everyone's role is equally fun and viable, as opposed to strengthening the link to a game who's playerbase would love nothing more than for CCP to shut this game down. Balance would be nice, too bad that isn't what the nerfs/buffs do. they nerf, and they buff, they don't balance. If it was balanced, why would you want to nerf it? If it was balanced, why would you want to buff it? Just because you can't kill the scout that is cloaked doesn't mean it is OP, because you might be pursuing unrealistic goals if what you're using can't actually kill cloaky scouts, so you go to the forums and whine until the end of time. If it's broken, fix it, if it isn't and you're just bad, HTFU yah scrub. AV isn't a solo thing for HAVs, it never has been. And it shouldn't be easy to do. A single swarm launcher shouldn't be able to take out an HAV.... but 3 or 4 should have the ability to kill it. In EVE, an assault frigate would be hard pressed to kill a battleship... but 5 Assault Frigates?  And if balancing the game was so freaking easy, why isn't it balanced? Why isn't there more of a link to EVE? Simple. Dev time is focused on nerfing and buffing the whiney players who can't deal with something killing them. If it needs to be balanced then by all means do so, but if it really doesn't... then boo hoo you died. You want the game to be better? I have the answer, and there is even a song done by CCP H.T.F.U Less nerf/buff, more content please 
 In dust we are limited to 16v16.. If AV can't solo a tank it creates unbalance. You're eve statement is shortsighted.
 
 Ttk on vehicles needs to be high so that we don't return to previous 1.7 where any militia scrub could solo a tank. In order to then balance, tanks can not be so effective against infantry. This is the issue. Not exactly sure how to solve it yet though. The nerf to Swarms was definitely a step in the wrong direction.
 
 The only conclusion I can reach is to give tanks a much higher HP but a much lower regen. Steady impacts from AV should cause tanks to retreat for a larger length of time than how it currently sits.
 
 Damage to vehicle WP was a good step too and has helped immensely in increasing AV incentives.
 
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