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Changing the Armor Plate system and more.

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Mordecai Sanguine What The French Red Whines. 552	Posted - 2014.04.08 14:04:00 - [1] - Quote Hi everyone, ok to start i'll apologize for my bad english, this isn't my native language...so if a sentance don't mean anything or something looks wrong...well tell me the right way to say it and i'll change it. *Introduction :* Actually we have such a lot of problems into the actual meta, everybody is stacking Armor plates, adding a lot of Armor PV, while they're not supposed to, per exemple : Scouts Caldari (Already seen Caldari with 500 armor...) OR people (Gallente) making Brick Tanking suits while they're not supposed to anymore. (They are supposed to stack Reactives plates and Armor Repper, but actually it's broken so... we'll see that later.) On the other hand in the last update, Combat Philosophy of two races have totally swapped to be in line with EVE, without changing the slots associated with. (Amarr and Gallente). This thread will be on 3 points : - Changing the Armor Plates system, and passive skill bonuses associated with. - Create a viable Regen Armor Tanking system. - Slot swap between Amarr and Gallente for Medium Frames. (I'll explain why.) And as a conclusion i will resume the benefit and the drawbacks for each races if we apply all these changes. Oh and i was forgetting, these changes are bringing balance between shield tanking and armor tanking (Armor will still have more ehp since shield have an integrated regen, but the difference will be lower.) I/ Changing the whole Armor plates system and values. II/ Regen Tanking ? III/ Slot swap between Amarr and Gallente. Part one : Changing the whole Armor plates system and values. Let's start with "basic" plates, these plates adds a high Ehp value but is supposed to come with a high speed penality. Actually the Speed penality is way too low, for almost 300-350 more ehp we barely lose 10% speed, it's ridiculous. First changement : Higher Speed Penality for "Basic plates" (I'd suggest to call them "Heavy Plates" since their ehp values are really high). Old values : 2%/3%/5% New values : 5%/6%/8% Armor Regen Malus (Hp/s) : 1/2/3 , we'll see why later (Keep Calm ). Armor hp/s can't be under 0. And further Armor repper will be buffed so it will still be possible to have some hp regen with these plates (but really low). For slow suits deseigned to Brick Tanking (Amarr and Heavy Frames) it won't be that much a nerf, they have a so low Base Speed than a "percent" of it is well...pretty low too. It will be a nerf for "speed" suits i know, BUT in fact not at all, the fact is : Basic plates are just NOT for them. After Ferroscales and Reactives is going to be viable, speed suits will use them while slow suits (or suits deseigned for Brick tanking) will use Basic plates (I'd suggest to call them "Heavy Plates"). And Scouts would FINALLY use something else than (MOAR Ehp) in their Low Slots. (Biotics and Utilitary.) The Armor regen malus is to avoid a gallente having better result using a Armor repper + Basic plate instead of Reactives + Armor Repper, keep calm Regen tanking will become viable a little further. Amarr are not suppsoed to have hp/s but Brick armor. And other suits are not supposed to use these plates without well...penalities you know. Ehp Values at Level 5 Skill : 93.5 / 121 / 148.5 (Same than before.) PG/CPU cost : 1/10 6/20 12/30 (Same than before.) Okay now let's make Ferroscale plates a relevant choice of fitting : Second Changement : Ferroscales fitting cost is now the same than Heavy Plates (1/10 6/20 12/30) Speed penality is still the same (Nothing.) These plates are now the "average plate" they don't slow you down, they have no drawbacks but they don't repair you neither their ehp is lower than "Heavy plates" but higher than reactives, it's the "average plates" in every part. An equivalent of shield extender but in Armor. (Still, since shield have an integrated regen, these plates have bigger ehp than shield extender) Ehp values at Level 5 skill : 38.5 / 55 / 82.5 (Same than before) PG/CPU cost : Same than "Heavy plates" just look previously. Okay now let's make Reactives Plates a REAL choice for Regen Tanking or to bring some hp regen in addition to Ferroscales (Not in addition to "Heavy" plates anymore). Third Changement : Reactives fitting cost are now the same than Heavy Plates. Speed Penality are : 2% / 3% / 5% (Higher than before) The purpose of these plates is to add some ehp (a little) and to bring a big hp regen in addition to an Armor Repper. Before reading, don't forget it comes with an Armor repper change. On Reactives, the Armor plates skill don't affect ehp of plate but Hp regen of each plate.(5% per level to a max of 25%) Due to this Reactives would receive a Hp buff to make them equal to the old vlaues with level 5 skill. Ehp (not affected by skill level) and hp/s value (5% per level) at level 5 skill : 27.5 / 44 / 66 => 2.5 (2 without skill) / 3.75 (3 without skill) / 6.25 (5 without skill) Okay now let's make Armor repper a viable choice and a must have in addition to Reactives for a strong Regen Tanking. Fourth Changement : Armor Repper Buff. The purpose is to bring a solid hp regen to the soldier. Making it almost independant of a Logi. (I said almost, you will never reach that much hp regen than if you were holded by a logi as equal level). No speed Penality Same PG/CPU cost than now (a little lower PG cost than plates, so takes less PG than reactives but a little higher CPU cost) Same skill modifier than before (5% per level). Hp/s value at level 5 skill : 3.75 (3 without skill) / 6.25 (5 without skill) / 8.75 (7 without skills) Here's the end of Part One, i'll make Part Two and Part three in some days. Thanks to had read, give opinion, like and share (if you want) https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=154461&find=unread
TechMechMeds SWAMPERIUM 2989	Posted - 2014.04.08 14:14:00 - [2] - Quote Looks really good, I definitely support this. If you know what a telefrag match is, then I love you. Dust for over a year, gaming for over 18 and counting.
Deltahawk Durango Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 188	Posted - 2014.04.08 14:25:00 - [3] - Quote you should've reserved the second and third post to edit later... but i really like where you're going with this... armour plates are one of the most OP things in the game as evidenced by the market data... 70% of low slot modules sold are plates... this is supposed to be a game where you see thousands of different fittings but everyone fits their suits the same way... and it is way to easy to armour tank with the low fitting costs... shield tanking my cal commando requires sacrifices but armour tanking my amarr sentinel still allows me to fit the suit with top-notch items... this post might actually have a better chance of being seen by CCP in features/ideas forum... but good job buddy... I don't believe in an eye for an eye... I believe in two eyes for an eye!
Mordecai Sanguine What The French Red Whines. 562	Posted - 2014.04.08 14:31:00 - [4] - Quote Deltahawk Durango wrote: you should've reserved the second and third post to edit later... but i really like where you're going with this... armour plates are one of the most OP things in the game as evidenced by the market data... 70% of low slot modules sold are plates... this is supposed to be a game where you see thousands of different fittings but everyone fits their suits the same way... and it is way to easy to armour tank with the low fitting costs... shield tanking my cal commando requires sacrifices but armour tanking my amarr sentinel still allows me to fit the suit with top-notch items... this post might actually have a better chance of being seen by CCP in features/ideas forum... but good job buddy... I know, but in fact i've reached the max characters (6000). I've even cut my last lines (2 of them). Also it's to avoid a "Wall" of text, and too much information at the same time. And for the part 2, anybody with these new values could guess how regen tanking will be after these changes. For Part 3 well, it's a slot swap between Gallente and Amarr, and exemple how better it will be (Gallente would have less low slots BUT more high slots to fit damage mod and make Rough damage in CQC as intended by their Combat philosophy. Thanks ^^ Oh and the link at the end of the post is a redirection to the same thread but in "Features and ideas" so... please go ahead and like it too ;) Post and well... do what you want
1pawn dust Algintal Core Gallente Federation 116	Posted - 2014.04.08 14:39:00 - [5] - Quote I like the first change you suggested but on the fence with the other 3, the bottom line in the game is ehp > rep. Be it infantry or vehicles if you balance player skill, whoever has the most ehp wins. This is the fundamental reason why armor is OP to shields atm, by reintroducing a more balancing effect for making a trade off for having high ehp people might mix up their fits more. Also the situation isnt helped when the combat rifle has incredible range and shreds shields, and geks/duvolles are actually better suited to killing shields. Plates would be better off balanced with more movement penalty than anything else, and making certain mods both high/low slot configuration for more DS versatility across the races without given any an unnecessary advantage.
Mordecai Sanguine What The French Red Whines. 565	Posted - 2014.04.08 14:47:00 - [6] - Quote 1pawn dust wrote: I like the first change you suggested but on the fence with the other 3, the bottom line in the game is ehp > rep. Be it infantry or vehicles if you balance player skill, whoever has the most ehp wins. This is the fundamental reason why armor is OP to shields atm, by reintroducing a more balancing effect for making a trade off for having high ehp people might mix up their fits more. Also the situation isnt helped when the combat rifle has incredible range and shreds shields, and geks/duvolles are actually better suited to killing shields. Plates would be better off balanced with more movement penalty than anything else, and making certain mods both high/low slot configuration for more DS versatility across the races without given any an unnecessary advantage. I'm reaaaally sorry, but i didn't understand your post. "but on the fence" as i said english is not my native language what does it means ? The purpose (not the only one)of this whole armor plate system is to change what you said, the one with the most ehp is no more the winner. Because now it adds new types of tanking. Regen Brick Shield Dodge / strafe (ferro) And with the new penalities to Basic plates the amount of "pure" armor ehp will be lower, being closer to shield ehp (but still higher because shield have an inherent regen). Well...with the changement i've mentionned plates become way more balanced, they all have a drawback (exept ferroscale which is average in every part). So...it's seems you agree with me in every part...but not..Naaaah sorry i don't understand
negative49er Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 565	Posted - 2014.04.08 14:49:00 - [7] - Quote It because armor plate got very little pg cost Dedicated Shotgun Scout and professional backstabber
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 2424	Posted - 2014.04.08 14:59:00 - [8] - Quote Increasing the speed penalty on armor will only break it. The speed penalty as it is is fine... losing 0.5 m/s for using only two plates is insane. Not only that but your strafing and back tracking is gimped at 4.05 m/s thats a tad bit faster than a heavy suit. You cannot jump over obstacles if using more than 1 complex plate, and you are just so much easier to hit. If you increase the speed penalty to armor. shield tanking should get a penalty to increase hitbox size. Or the speed penalty should only reduce your agility i.e strafing speeds, it wasn't long ago shields were OP as hell and all that was changed to armor was a small amount of extra HP and reduced speed penalties but increase the speed penalty will make shields superior once more. Not add balance. Currently what makes armor unbalanced is that it doesnt scale properly, dual tanking is rampant, and there is no low slot/high slot module balance. For the Federation! [If armor is OP to you read this][2]
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 8183	Posted - 2014.04.08 15:00:00 - [9] - Quote While I approve of this so far, here are two things that bug me: STD-ADV-PRO "Heavy" plates are imbalanced between themselves. The STD plate costs barely anything CPU/PG wise but gives so much HP. ADV is middle of the road. Nobody uses PRO. I think STD and ADV "heavy" plates need a PG cost increase. The second thing is that you're going to swap the Gallente and Amarr module slots. That's BAD, the Amarr are going to get an extra low slot, evidenced by the light and heavy frames. My intentions is to have a fun game for everyone. If I seem to be biased, I have good hard data to back it up.
Mordecai Sanguine What The French Red Whines. 566	Posted - 2014.04.08 15:00:00 - [10] - Quote negative49er wrote: It because armor plate got very little pg cost LoL Wuuut ? I mean..what why who where ? + Same Like amount High Five

Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 8183	Posted - 2014.04.08 15:01:00 - [11] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Increasing the speed penalty on armor will only break it. The speed penalty as it is is fine... losing 0.5 m/s for using only two plates is insane. Not only that but your strafing and back tracking is gimped at 4.05 m/s thats a tad bit faster than a heavy suit. You cannot jump over obstacles if using more than 1 complex plate, and you are just so much easier to hit. If you increase the speed penalty to armor. shield tanking should get a penalty to increase hitbox size. Or the speed penalty should only reduce your agility i.e strafing speeds, it wasn't long ago shields were OP as hell and all that was changed to armor was a small amount of extra HP and reduced speed penalties but increase the speed penalty will make shields superior once more. Not add balance. Currently what makes armor unbalanced is that it doesnt scale properly, dual tanking is rampant, and there is no low slot/high slot module balance. This thread solves something that is very much an issue. Regen armor tanking is not viable, hence the Gallente have to step on the Amarr's toes, since we have to heavily armor up just like them. My intentions is to have a fun game for everyone. If I seem to be biased, I have good hard data to back it up.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries Dirt Nap Squad. 8183	Posted - 2014.04.08 15:04:00 - [12] - Quote Another change: I would increase the HP on both reactives and ferroscale plates further, just a tad, an extra 10-20HP each. Using basic plates + armor reppers will still be better than using complex reactives. My intentions is to have a fun game for everyone. If I seem to be biased, I have good hard data to back it up.
Decimel Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 4	Posted - 2014.04.08 15:07:00 - [13] - Quote I've seen heavies that can't jump up on the smallest ledge, so I'm not sure I'd support making them slower.
Mordecai Sanguine What The French Red Whines. 566	Posted - 2014.04.08 15:08:00 - [14] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Increasing the speed penalty on armor will only break it. The speed penalty as it is is fine... losing 0.5 m/s for using only two plates is insane. Not only that but your strafing and back tracking is gimped at 4.05 m/s thats a tad bit faster than a heavy suit. You cannot jump over obstacles if using more than 1 complex plate, and you are just so much easier to hit. If you increase the speed penalty to armor. shield tanking should get a penalty to increase hitbox size. Or the speed penalty should only reduce your agility i.e strafing speeds, it wasn't long ago shields were OP as hell and all that was changed to armor was a small amount of extra HP and reduced speed penalties but increase the speed penalty will make shields superior once more. Not add balance. Currently what makes armor unbalanced is that it doesnt scale properly, dual tanking is rampant, and there is no low slot/high slot module balance. You think this because for you "Heavy plate" now became the norm, in fact it shouldn't. These plates are supposed to be used by Amarrians and Heavy suits, for them Speed is absolutely not a factor. (Speedy Heavy don't count.). If you want to keep your speed use Ferroscale, with PG/CPU cost in line with Basic plate it's now a REAL choice. See more "global". In fact i remember these dark days when Calda was stomping us with these horrible shields. But in fact it was because of the hit detection...half of our shots was "erased" on shield.
Rynoceros Rise Of Old Dudes 3553	Posted - 2014.04.08 15:09:00 - [15] - Quote Plus Juan. Sounds good. (It'll never happen - because you make too much sense.) I GÖú Kittens.
Mordecai Sanguine What The French Red Whines. 568	Posted - 2014.04.08 15:10:00 - [16] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Another change: I would increase the HP on both reactives and ferroscale plates further, just a tad, an extra 10-20HP each. Using basic plates + armor reppers will still be better than using complex reactives. Agree, and it will balance shield vs Armor (Like Bl4CKST4R said.) No it won't with the Hp regen malus on plates. But i'll take a look into it ;)
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 2425	Posted - 2014.04.08 15:12:00 - [17] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Increasing the speed penalty on armor will only break it. The speed penalty as it is is fine... losing 0.5 m/s for using only two plates is insane. Not only that but your strafing and back tracking is gimped at 4.05 m/s thats a tad bit faster than a heavy suit. You cannot jump over obstacles if using more than 1 complex plate, and you are just so much easier to hit. If you increase the speed penalty to armor. shield tanking should get a penalty to increase hitbox size. Or the speed penalty should only reduce your agility i.e strafing speeds, it wasn't long ago shields were OP as hell and all that was changed to armor was a small amount of extra HP and reduced speed penalties but increase the speed penalty will make shields superior once more. Not add balance. Currently what makes armor unbalanced is that it doesnt scale properly, dual tanking is rampant, and there is no low slot/high slot module balance. You think this because for you "Heavy plate" now became the norm, in fact it shouldn't. These plates are supposed to be used by Amarrians and Heavy suits, for them Speed is absolutely not a factor. (Speedy Heavy don't count.). If you want to keep your speed use Ferroscale, with PG/CPU cost in line with Basic plate it's now a REAL choice. See more "global". In fact i remember these dark days when Calda was stomping us with these horrible shields. But in fact it was because of the hit detection...half of our shots was "erased" on shield. I am going to have to re read your post to see this statement. These plates are supposed to be used by Amarrians and Heavy suits, for them Speed is absolutely not a factor. (Speedy Heavy don't count.). If you want to keep your speed use Ferroscale, with PG/CPU cost in line with Basic plate it's now a REAL choice. See more "global". For the Federation!
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 2425	Posted - 2014.04.08 15:13:00 - [18] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Another change: I would increase the HP on both reactives and ferroscale plates further, just a tad, an extra 10-20HP each. Using basic plates + armor reppers will still be better than using complex reactives. Agree, and it will balance shield vs Armor (Like Bl4CKST4R said.) No it won't with the Hp regen malus on plates. But i'll take a look into it ;) What does HP regen malus mean? For the Federation!
Sev Alcatraz Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn 524	Posted - 2014.04.08 15:15:00 - [19] - Quote Much logic I sense it's a Shame ccp has none and will most likely ignor this :/ closed beta Vet "The mashed up corpses of red Berrys make for great track lube"
Mordecai Sanguine What The French Red Whines. 568	Posted - 2014.04.08 15:16:00 - [20] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Another change: I would increase the HP on both reactives and ferroscale plates further, just a tad, an extra 10-20HP each. Using basic plates + armor reppers will still be better than using complex reactives. Agree, and it will balance shield vs Armor (Like Bl4CKST4R said.) No it won't with the Hp regen malus on plates. But i'll take a look into it ;) What does HP regen malus mean? Hmmm Malus is "penality". Fitting a Heavy plate makes you lose "HP regen" Edit : I've updated the thread, higher ehp numbers (to balance shield vs armor like BL4CKST4R said) and adding the fact than STD plates and ADV PG/CPU cost should be a little higher. Now sorry guys i'm sick and i need to see the Doc ;) Back in 1/2 hours

BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 2425	Posted - 2014.04.08 15:19:00 - [21] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Increasing the speed penalty on armor will only break it. The speed penalty as it is is fine... losing 0.5 m/s for using only two plates is insane. Not only that but your strafing and back tracking is gimped at 4.05 m/s thats a tad bit faster than a heavy suit. You cannot jump over obstacles if using more than 1 complex plate, and you are just so much easier to hit. If you increase the speed penalty to armor. shield tanking should get a penalty to increase hitbox size. Or the speed penalty should only reduce your agility i.e strafing speeds, it wasn't long ago shields were OP as hell and all that was changed to armor was a small amount of extra HP and reduced speed penalties but increase the speed penalty will make shields superior once more. Not add balance. Currently what makes armor unbalanced is that it doesnt scale properly, dual tanking is rampant, and there is no low slot/high slot module balance. This thread solves something that is very much an issue. Regen armor tanking is not viable, hence the Gallente have to step on the Amarr's toes, since we have to heavily armor up just like them. OK I see it now, it was really hard to read to I missed some parts. I still think the shield penalty is terrible though, so dual tanking = death coffin, but I agree to what he is trying to do. For the Federation!
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn 2978	Posted - 2014.04.08 15:24:00 - [22] - Quote I've only read half of this(got cut off before I could finish) But it seems you really wanna punish plates for everyone, including the armour suit users who only fit 1-2 plates and use te rest of the slots of reps. If you wanna nerf plates then you have to give armour based suits higher base armour so we can compete with shield suits(I admit that I haven't read your whole post and you could have already touched on this) and 8 percent for a complex plate would kill it more. No one uses them besides heavies. Also, switching the GalAssault and the AmarrAssaults slot layout is just plain nuts. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 2426	Posted - 2014.04.08 15:31:00 - [23] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: I've only read half of this(got cut off before I could finish) But it seems you really wanna punish plates for everyone, including the armour suit users who only fit 1-2 plates and use te rest of the slots of reps. If you wanna nerf plates then you have to give armour based suits higher base armour so we can compete with shield suits(I admit that I haven't read your whole post and you could have already touched on this) and 8 percent for a complex plate would kill it more. No one uses them besides heavies. Also, switching the GalAssault and the AmarrAssaults slot layout is just plain nuts. This is what I thought you might want to finish it and then read it like 2 more times before it makes sense. For the Federation!
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1936	Posted - 2014.04.08 15:53:00 - [24] - Quote Just an idea or two for the stewpot. tl;dr at the bottom. We want armor rep tanking to be viable but distinguish it from sheild tanking. What if armour repping was non-linear? And what if that non-linearity manifested as a 'best in the middle' flavour of armor repping? The thinking here is that sheild repair is dependent on only power(watts) but armour tanking would be dependent on materials and power. Furthurmore rebuilding the prolly-quite-sophisticated armor matrix would be a non-trivial job for our nanite-based reppers, and is prolly easiest when combinatorics/entropy is working for us: this occurs when the armor is at its half-point. Sigmoid functions like the logistics function or arctan would be natural candidates. Secondly, since armor repping depends on materials, why not bump up rep rate when we're standing on a nanohive, any nanohive? No hive - repper is limited by availiable materials, hive - repper is limited by its powergrid/negentropy production ;P tl:dr 1. Change the armor repper repair rate curve to look like this. 2. Bump up repair rate if extra nanites are availiable from any nanohive. I support SP rollover.
Mordecai Sanguine What The French Red Whines. 569	Posted - 2014.04.08 17:07:00 - [25] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Cat Merc wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Increasing the speed penalty on armor will only break it. The speed penalty as it is is fine... losing 0.5 m/s for using only two plates is insane. Not only that but your strafing and back tracking is gimped at 4.05 m/s thats a tad bit faster than a heavy suit. You cannot jump over obstacles if using more than 1 complex plate, and you are just so much easier to hit. If you increase the speed penalty to armor. shield tanking should get a penalty to increase hitbox size. Or the speed penalty should only reduce your agility i.e strafing speeds, it wasn't long ago shields were OP as hell and all that was changed to armor was a small amount of extra HP and reduced speed penalties but increase the speed penalty will make shields superior once more. Not add balance. Currently what makes armor unbalanced is that it doesnt scale properly, dual tanking is rampant, and there is no low slot/high slot module balance. This thread solves something that is very much an issue. Regen armor tanking is not viable, hence the Gallente have to step on the Amarr's toes, since we have to heavily armor up just like them. OK I see it now, it was really hard to read to I missed some parts. I still think the shield penalty is terrible though, so dual tanking = death coffin, but I agree to what he is trying to do. Also I still cannot agree to bumping the reactive plate penalty. Reactives also received the biggest buff, they now have same Hp/s than actual Armor repper ;) Why it is hard to read ? Too compact ? Bad words ? I'm trying to get better so..... Noooo This is your problem, you still think Dual tanking or "medium tanking" will use "Heavy plates", WRONG you must use Ferroscales or Reactives. Heavy Plates is for Brick Tanking or Hard Tanking.
VonSpliff TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 141	Posted - 2014.04.08 17:12:00 - [26] - Quote Couldn't imagine running a heavy with 12% movement penalty. I use 2 adv sometimes "It never got weird enough for me." Dr. T
Mordecai Sanguine What The French Red Whines. 569	Posted - 2014.04.08 17:16:00 - [27] - Quote VonSpliff wrote: Couldn't imagine running a heavy with 12% movement penalty. I use 2 adv sometimes Ehp amount of these plates have been lightly buffed. If you want a Light Heavy, go ahead for Ferroscales, or reactives. If you want a real "Heavy" you take these plates and you play the real Mudfukka Wall of death.
TechMechMeds SWAMPERIUM 2992	Posted - 2014.04.08 17:24:00 - [28] - Quote I think this is great and will stop the brick tanked pew pew scum. If you know what a telefrag match is, then I love you. Dust for over a year, gaming for over 18 and counting.
Mordecai Sanguine What The French Red Whines. 571	Posted - 2014.04.08 17:27:00 - [29] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: I think this is great and will stop the brick tanked pew pew scum. They will still be able to, but they will be slow. OR they are less brick but faster. Everything is about choice.
TechMechMeds SWAMPERIUM 2992	Posted - 2014.04.08 17:29:00 - [30] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: TechMechMeds wrote: I think this is great and will stop the brick tanked pew pew scum. They will still be able to, but they will be slow. OR they are less brick but faster. Everything is about choice. Yeah, there does need to be a larger speed penalty and your numbers seem just fine to me. If you know what a telefrag match is, then I love you. Dust for over a year, gaming for over 18 and counting.

Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2795	Posted - 2014.04.08 18:21:00 - [31] - Quote I applaud you sir, for putting together such a well thought out post. You're english isn't perfect but it's good enough to make sense and a hell of a lot better than many of the native speakers on this forum. That said, I don't agree with everything you posted. I think basic plates just need their original speed penalties back (think it was 3%, 5%, 10% before) but not the repper penalty too. You're quite right that if you want that max HP from armour, you should get slowed the F down. That's the exact reason ferroscales were introduced in the first place. These changes would make them a viable choice again. Currently, as a scout, I don't even look at them because the fittings costs are far too high. Do they really need to be so high when they already offer so much less protection than basic plates. And btw I'd call ferroscale plates the 'light plates' because no movement penalty. Reactives can be the mediums because they have a small penalty (I think 1%, 2%, 3% is fine for these but buff the HP just a little). I look forward to reading your part 2 - repper tanking is something I've wanted to do for at least a year but currently even stacking 4 complex reppers is not a viable suit. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 2433	Posted - 2014.04.08 19:06:00 - [32] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Cat Merc wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Increasing the speed penalty on armor will only break it. The speed penalty as it is is fine... losing 0.5 m/s for using only two plates is insane. Not only that but your strafing and back tracking is gimped at 4.05 m/s thats a tad bit faster than a heavy suit. You cannot jump over obstacles if using more than 1 complex plate, and you are just so much easier to hit. If you increase the speed penalty to armor. shield tanking should get a penalty to increase hitbox size. Or the speed penalty should only reduce your agility i.e strafing speeds, it wasn't long ago shields were OP as hell and all that was changed to armor was a small amount of extra HP and reduced speed penalties but increase the speed penalty will make shields superior once more. Not add balance. Currently what makes armor unbalanced is that it doesnt scale properly, dual tanking is rampant, and there is no low slot/high slot module balance. This thread solves something that is very much an issue. Regen armor tanking is not viable, hence the Gallente have to step on the Amarr's toes, since we have to heavily armor up just like them. OK I see it now, it was really hard to read to I missed some parts. I still think the shield penalty is terrible though, so dual tanking = death coffin, but I agree to what he is trying to do. Also I still cannot agree to bumping the reactive plate penalty. Reactives also received the biggest buff, they now have same Hp/s than actual Armor repper, and almost same ehp amount than a Ferroscale WITH the rep amount so....Speed penality was needed to bring balance between them, and 2% is well not a real factor ;) Why it is hard to read ? Too compact ? Bad words ? I'm trying to get better so..... Noooo This is your problem, you still think Dual tanking or "medium tanking" will use "Heavy plates", WRONG you must use Ferroscales or Reactives. Heavy Plates is for Brick Tanking or Hard Tanking. I didn't see any increased HP I think the numbers don't pop out enough on the thread and I miss them. For the Federation!
Mordecai Sanguine What The French Red Whines. 573	Posted - 2014.04.08 19:08:00 - [33] - Quote Django Quik wrote: I applaud you sir, for putting together such a well thought out post. You're english isn't perfect but it's good enough to make sense and a hell of a lot better than many of the native speakers on this forum. That said, I don't agree with everything you posted. I think basic plates just need their original speed penalties back (think it was 3%, 5%, 10% before) but not the repper penalty too. You're quite right that if you want that max HP from armour, you should get slowed the F down. That's the exact reason ferroscales were introduced in the first place. These changes would make them a viable choice again. Currently, as a scout, I don't even look at them because the fittings costs are far too high. Do they really need to be so high when they already offer so much less protection than basic plates. And btw I'd call ferroscale plates the 'light plates' because no movement penalty. Reactives can be the mediums because they have a small penalty (I think 1%, 2%, 3% is fine for these but buff the HP just a little). I look forward to reading your part 2 - repper tanking is something I've wanted to do for at least a year but currently even stacking 4 complex reppers is not a viable suit. I think 10% is maybe a bit too much. (8% still slow as ****) And with the ehp amount of a basic, 3% is well...too low. The repper penality is to make reactives a better choice than basic + repper. I've already buff hp a little of plates ;) Well, look the new numbers, look your slots and you have your regen tank ^^
Mordecai Sanguine What The French Red Whines. 575	Posted - 2014.04.08 19:10:00 - [34] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Mordecai Sanguine wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Cat Merc wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Increasing the speed penalty on armor will only break it. The speed penalty as it is is fine... losing 0.5 m/s for using only two plates is insane. Not only that but your strafing and back tracking is gimped at 4.05 m/s thats a tad bit faster than a heavy suit. You cannot jump over obstacles if using more than 1 complex plate, and you are just so much easier to hit. If you increase the speed penalty to armor. shield tanking should get a penalty to increase hitbox size. Or the speed penalty should only reduce your agility i.e strafing speeds, it wasn't long ago shields were OP as hell and all that was changed to armor was a small amount of extra HP and reduced speed penalties but increase the speed penalty will make shields superior once more. Not add balance. Currently what makes armor unbalanced is that it doesnt scale properly, dual tanking is rampant, and there is no low slot/high slot module balance. This thread solves something that is very much an issue. Regen armor tanking is not viable, hence the Gallente have to step on the Amarr's toes, since we have to heavily armor up just like them. OK I see it now, it was really hard to read to I missed some parts. I still think the shield penalty is terrible though, so dual tanking = death coffin, but I agree to what he is trying to do. Also I still cannot agree to bumping the reactive plate penalty. Reactives also received the biggest buff, they now have same Hp/s than actual Armor repper, and almost same ehp amount than a Ferroscale WITH the rep amount so....Speed penality was needed to bring balance between them, and 2% is well not a real factor ;) Why it is hard to read ? Too compact ? Bad words ? I'm trying to get better so..... Noooo This is your problem, you still think Dual tanking or "medium tanking" will use "Heavy plates", WRONG you must use Ferroscales or Reactives. Heavy Plates is for Brick Tanking or Hard Tanking. I didn't see any increased HP I think the numbers don't pop out enough on the thread and I miss them. I can't pop them more, no more characters. I've buffed every plates by 10hp, then applied the 10% from skills.
Medical Crash CLONES AGAINST HUMANITY 253	Posted - 2014.04.08 19:11:00 - [35] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Brick wall of text I'm sorry, that was too much writing, you have bored me; no Dopamine= no read.
Mordecai Sanguine What The French Red Whines. 575	Posted - 2014.04.08 19:13:00 - [36] - Quote Medical Crash wrote: Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Brick wall of text I'm sorry, that was too much writing, you have bored me; no Dopamine= no read. Hmmm you don't love to read and you play Dust ? What the **** is your fit ?
Yan Darn Science For Death 538	Posted - 2014.04.08 19:14:00 - [37] - Quote You get +1 I don't think I agree with everything (might be some misunderstanding), but frankly at this point - someone willing to: 1) Accept there is a massive, huge problem with the current tank meta (not necessarily the suits that can abuse it). 2) willing to come up with sensible suggestions (not just nerfs). Puts you like in the top 10% of intelligent posters. I hope to see more of this. The Ghost of Bravo
Mordecai Sanguine What The French Red Whines. 575	Posted - 2014.04.08 19:18:00 - [38] - Quote Yan Darn wrote: You get +1 I don't think I agree with everything (might be some misunderstanding), but frankly at this point - someone willing to: 1) Accept there is a massive, huge problem with the current tank meta (not necessarily the suits that can abuse it). 2) willing to come up with sensible suggestions (not just nerfs). Puts you like in the top 10% of intelligent posters. I hope to see more of this. Thanks, Is that a tear on my face ? Seems like i've achieved my purpose on this Forum
The Terminator T-1000 Skynet Incorporated 352	Posted - 2014.04.08 19:30:00 - [39] - Quote Armor plates were changed not long ago. Why keep messing with the same thing over and over. Instead buff shields a bit. This will also help increase TTK. As far as scouts, well they were buffed way too much on this last update. They should lose their side arm and/or lose a slot. No other suit has been buffed as much as the scout has at one time.
Auris Lionesse Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 709	Posted - 2014.04.08 19:40:00 - [40] - Quote I disagree with penalties on reactive plates. If were gonna fix it we need to do it right. 8 slot high/low maximum. Rebalance all suits and layouts. add resistance mods low Change damage mods low. Break them down to four types instead of one blanket mod and put them back up to 10% to counter new built in suit resistances and resistance mods. Speed mods high. add e warfare. ferroscale should give a percentage and if we do rep tanking triage nanohives need to get the axe and armor repair tools need to be remodeled and go to gallente and amarr. a protod out gal suit should with a bunch of rep mods should achieve what a triage hive does. Rep tank means I need to be able to rep in battle and not have the amount be trivial. Shields need to rep passively and that problems effectively fixed there. Someone on the first page talked about how theres supposed to be thousands of fitting options. That's impossible when there's no suit variety and no module variety which is why we new to eveify. Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Heroes in a half Gank! *TURTLE POWER!!!*

Bormir1r Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 237	Posted - 2014.04.08 19:51:00 - [41] - Quote I would definitely advocate for option 1. "One does not simply" look for a scout, it looks for you.
Absoliav Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 148	Posted - 2014.04.08 20:37:00 - [42] - Quote The speed penalties you propose are far too high for any fitting, which was the same reason no one used them long time ago and your proposed penalty to regen with it is going overboard even with you regen buff. The reason Armor is being used so frequently is cause it's the only thing worth putting on and since anyone can benefit from using them everyone slaps 'em on. Same can be said for shields, it's not just a matter of Armor being OP, the biggest issue is that defensive modules are the only mods worth putting on. You're trying to fix a very complicated problem with far too simple solution, it's clear this thread was made to address tanked Scouts which have been around long before 1.8 and have only now become a problem. Back on topic, I strongly disagree with your Heavy Armor idea but agree with you about buffing Reactives and Ferrors, but not Reps, your idea on reps would make shields irrelevant, crossing into their territory by repping too fast.
1pawn dust Algintal Core Gallente Federation 122	Posted - 2014.04.08 20:40:00 - [43] - Quote Its a good idea that more plates = less hp regen, but would need a pgrid cost increase to stop the current problem
Mordecai Sanguine What The French Red Whines. 582	Posted - 2014.04.09 04:42:00 - [44] - Quote Absoliav wrote: The speed penalties you propose are far too high for any fitting, which was the same reason no one used them long time ago and your proposed penalty to regen with it is going overboard even with you regen buff. The reason Armor is being used so frequently is cause it's the only thing worth putting on and since anyone can benefit from using them everyone slaps 'em on. Same can be said for shields, it's not just a matter of Armor being OP, the biggest issue is that defensive modules are the only mods worth putting on. You're trying to fix a very complicated problem with far too simple solution, it's clear this thread was made to address tanked Scouts which have been around long before 1.8 and have only now become a problem. Back on topic, I strongly disagree with your Heavy Armor idea but agree with you about buffing Reactives and Ferrors, but not Reps, your idea on reps would make shields irrelevant, crossing into their territory by repping too fast. If oyu think that you clearly didn't read the whole thread or didn't understand it.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 2448	Posted - 2014.04.09 19:31:00 - [45] - Quote Simplifed your post to just numbers, and slightly altered some values to improve scaling. Also removed the level 5 bonus you applied so these are values at level 0. Applied this concept to shield tanking, and wrote a post about it. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=154463 The first part (armor) of this thread is a simplified version of the post above. Values slightly modified to remove the level 5 bonus applied in his numbers, and to scale armor a little better. I do not take or want credit for his idea. Heavy - Medium - Light HP tanking system Heavy HP systems give a lot of HP but with a penalty Medium HP systems give medium HP with no penalty Light HP systems give a little bit of HP, a bonus, and a penalty Armor plating: Heavy Armour plates (Speed penalty plates) Basic: 95/ -5% speed Advanced: 120/ -6% speed Complex: 145/ -7% speed Nanofibre Armor plates (Ferroscale plates) Basic: 44/ -0% Advanced: 65/ -0% Complex: 87/ -0% Reactive plates (HP values not affected by armor plating skill, repair values are) Basic: 42/ -2%/ 2 HP/s Advanced: 62/ -3%/ 3 HP/s Complex: 85/ -4%/ 5 HP/s Armor repairers Basic: 3 Advanced: 5 Complex: 7 Shield extension: Heavy Shield extenders Basic: 67/ 3% increased hitbox Advanced: 84/ 4% increased hitbox Complex: 101/ 5% increased hitbox Medium Shield extenders Basic: 34/ -0% Advanced: 50/ -0% Complex: 67/ -0% Light Shield extenders (HP values unmodified by Shield extension skill, shield recharging skill lowers delay) Basic: 32/ +1% increased hitbox/ -10% shield recharge delay Advanced: 47/ +2% increased hitbox/ -15% shield recharge delay Complex: 63/ +3% increased hitbox/ -20% shield recharge delay Shield regulators (REMOVED) Shield rechargers (Vanilla) For the Federation!
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2817	Posted - 2014.04.09 19:43:00 - [46] - Quote The Terminator T-1000 wrote: Armor plates were changed not long ago. Why keep messing with the same thing over and over. Instead buff shields a bit. This will also help increase TTK. As far as scouts, well they were buffed way too much on this last update. They should lose their side arm and/or lose a slot. No other suit has been buffed as much as the scout has at one time. Buffing shields and leaving plates would just perpetuate the problems with bricktanking > ALL. Scouts need everything they got - do you remember how few there were and how weak they were before? You just want to gimp them with those suggestions. Fixing plates in this way would provide a much better alternative to sending scouts back to the garbage heap. Once assaults get their buffs in base stats and slots and the cloak-insta-shoot glitch is fixed, problems with scouts will all but disappear. The brick tanking problem (particularly armor-wise) is a far wider problem than just scouts. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2819	Posted - 2014.04.09 19:52:00 - [47] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: I disagree with penalties on reactive plates. If were gonna fix it we need to do it right. 8 slot high/low maximum. Rebalance all suits and layouts. add resistance mods low Change damage mods low. Break them down to four types instead of one blanket mod and put them back up to 10% to counter new built in suit resistances and resistance mods. Speed mods high. add e warfare. ferroscale should give a percentage and if we do rep tanking triage nanohives need to get the axe and armor repair tools need to be remodeled and go to gallente and amarr. a protod out gal suit should with a bunch of rep mods should achieve what a triage hive does. Rep tank means I need to be able to rep in battle and not have the amount be trivial. Shields need to rep passively and that problems effectively fixed there. Lignd heavy suits should have light and heavy armor mods and same for shields. You can't put battleship/cruiser plates on a frigate. You can't put medium/heavy plates on a light suit. Problem solved. Someone on the first page talked about how theres supposed to be thousands of fitting options. That's impossible when there's no suit variety and no module variety which is why we new to eveify. We should be working on eve parity first. Pretty much everything you said is a bad idea. I'll give you resistance mods but we have too many low slot mods compared to high slots as is. Speed mods high I'll take too. Ewar already exists but we could definitely do with more. The bad stuff: All suits are being rebalanced - half of it was done for 1.8; the rest is incoming shortly. Damage mods are ok now, maybe a wee buff - they were so strong before, they were more worthwhile than shields for the fittings cost. Ferroscale should definitely not be % based. They're intended for people like scouts - % based would make them strongest for heavies. If anything was to be % based it would be the 'heavy plates' to discourage light suit use. Reppers do need a buff but to make them that strong would invalidate shield recharge. If shield recharge was passive, there'd be nothing to set it apart from armor repping. This is Dust - we are all clones and we don't vary in size anywhere near as much as Eve ships. Whilst there are some good things in Eve that Dust should be trying to use itself, it must be remembered that this is NOT Eve and not everything translates across to an FPS well. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Mordecai Sanguine What The French Red Whines. 587	Posted - 2014.04.09 19:58:00 - [48] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Simplifed your post to just numbers, and slightly altered some values to improve scaling. Also removed the level 5 bonus you applied so these are values at level 0. Applied this concept to shield tanking, and wrote a post about it. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=154463 The first part (armor) of this thread is a simplified version of the post above. Values slightly modified to remove the level 5 bonus applied in his numbers, and to scale armor a little better. I do not take or want credit for his idea. Heavy - Medium - Light HP tanking system Heavy HP systems give a lot of HP but with a penalty Medium HP systems give medium HP with no penalty Light HP systems give a little bit of HP, a bonus, and a penalty Armor plating: Heavy Armour plates (Speed penalty plates) Basic: 95/ -5% speed Advanced: 120/ -6% speed Complex: 145/ -7% speed Nanofibre Armor plates (Ferroscale plates) Basic: 44/ -0% Advanced: 65/ -0% Complex: 87/ -0% Reactive plates (HP values not affected by armor plating skill, repair values are) Basic: 42/ -2%/ 2 HP/s Advanced: 62/ -3%/ 3 HP/s Complex: 85/ -4%/ 5 HP/s Armor repairers Basic: 3 Advanced: 5 Complex: 7 Shield extension: Heavy Shield extenders Basic: 67/ 3% increased hitbox Advanced: 84/ 4% increased hitbox Complex: 101/ 5% increased hitbox Medium Shield extenders Basic: 34/ -0% Advanced: 50/ -0% Complex: 67/ -0% Light Shield extenders (HP values unmodified by Shield extension skill, shield recharging skill lowers delay) Basic: 32/ +1% increased hitbox/ -10% shield recharge delay Advanced: 47/ +2% increased hitbox/ -15% shield recharge delay Complex: 63/ +3% increased hitbox/ -20% shield recharge delay Shield regulators (REMOVED) Shield rechargers (Vanilla) Don't agree with lot of things inside.
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2819	Posted - 2014.04.09 19:59:00 - [49] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Snip I like almost everything I read here except that I would buff armor reppers more, maybe to 5 / 10 / 15. You'd still need to stack them quite high to reach shield repping rates but they'd be a lot less eclipsed by the usefulness of plates. I'd also leave regulators in but give them a big buff. They could be useful things but with current stats you only get about a second off your delay using a complex mod. I'd make them something like 15% / 25% / 40% with much lower fittings costs. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2819	Posted - 2014.04.09 20:09:00 - [50] - Quote @Mordecai - Didn't see the repper numbers the first time; I don't think it's enough, stacking 4 complex would only get you ~30hp/s. I'd go a little further; perhaps 3 / 6 / 9 before skills. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts

BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 2450	Posted - 2014.04.09 20:10:00 - [51] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Simplifed your post to just numbers, and slightly altered some values to improve scaling. Also removed the level 5 bonus you applied so these are values at level 0. Applied this concept to shield tanking, and wrote a post about it. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=154463 The first part (armor) of this thread is a simplified version of the post above. Values slightly modified to remove the level 5 bonus applied in his numbers, and to scale armor a little better. I do not take or want credit for his idea. Heavy - Medium - Light HP tanking system Heavy HP systems give a lot of HP but with a penalty Medium HP systems give medium HP with no penalty Light HP systems give a little bit of HP, a bonus, and a penalty Armor plating: Heavy Armour plates (Speed penalty plates) Basic: 95/ -5% speed Advanced: 120/ -6% speed Complex: 145/ -7% speed Nanofibre Armor plates (Ferroscale plates) Basic: 44/ -0% Advanced: 65/ -0% Complex: 87/ -0% Reactive plates (HP values not affected by armor plating skill, repair values are) Basic: 42/ -2%/ 2 HP/s Advanced: 62/ -3%/ 3 HP/s Complex: 85/ -4%/ 5 HP/s Armor repairers Basic: 3 Advanced: 5 Complex: 7 Shield extension: Heavy Shield extenders Basic: 67/ 3% increased hitbox Advanced: 84/ 4% increased hitbox Complex: 101/ 5% increased hitbox Medium Shield extenders Basic: 34/ -0% Advanced: 50/ -0% Complex: 67/ -0% Light Shield extenders (HP values unmodified by Shield extension skill, shield recharging skill lowers delay) Basic: 32/ +1% increased hitbox/ -10% shield recharge delay Advanced: 47/ +2% increased hitbox/ -15% shield recharge delay Complex: 63/ +3% increased hitbox/ -20% shield recharge delay Shield regulators (REMOVED) Shield rechargers (Vanilla) Don't agree with lot of things inside. Which is the shields? I would like to know what. Gotta keep in mind there are heavy suits which use shields. For the Federation!
Mordecai Sanguine What The French Red Whines. 587	Posted - 2014.04.09 20:21:00 - [52] - Quote Django Quik wrote: @Mordecai - Didn't see the repper numbers the first time; I don't think it's enough, stacking 4 complex would only get you ~30hp/s. I'd go a little further; maybe not as far as I said in my post above but perhaps 3 / 6 / 9 before skills. Dudes WAKE THE HELL UP. 50hp/s (or 40) is GOD MODE. Have you ever see a Gallente Heavy on a Compact Nanohive ? He's barely invicible. Even me i was Amarr Logi Full Regen tanking, 20hp/s i was damn ***** powerful negating half of the shots.... Guys you're clearly going TOO far. The numbers of black is not totally **, in fact only some penality here or there are really too low, but guys...regen tanking is about "time" distance or quick backstab, not a front. Regen values are great ;) (Black) But yours is well....a bit too big. 30hp/s makes you a pain in the ass for well.....almost every distance shooter. Dude 5 sec => 150hp. It's....HUGE.
Mordecai Sanguine What The French Red Whines. 587	Posted - 2014.04.09 20:23:00 - [53] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Mordecai Sanguine wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Simplifed your post to just numbers, and slightly altered some values to improve scaling. Also removed the level 5 bonus you applied so these are values at level 0. Applied this concept to shield tanking, and wrote a post about it. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=154463 The first part (armor) of this thread is a simplified version of the post above. Values slightly modified to remove the level 5 bonus applied in his numbers, and to scale armor a little better. I do not take or want credit for his idea. Heavy - Medium - Light HP tanking system Heavy HP systems give a lot of HP but with a penalty Medium HP systems give medium HP with no penalty Light HP systems give a little bit of HP, a bonus, and a penalty Armor plating: Heavy Armour plates (Speed penalty plates) Basic: 95/ -5% speed Advanced: 120/ -6% speed Complex: 145/ -7% speed Nanofibre Armor plates (Ferroscale plates) Basic: 44/ -0% Advanced: 65/ -0% Complex: 87/ -0% Reactive plates (HP values not affected by armor plating skill, repair values are) Basic: 42/ -2%/ 2 HP/s Advanced: 62/ -3%/ 3 HP/s Complex: 85/ -4%/ 5 HP/s Armor repairers Basic: 3 Advanced: 5 Complex: 7 Shield extension: Heavy Shield extenders Basic: 67/ 3% increased hitbox Advanced: 84/ 4% increased hitbox Complex: 101/ 5% increased hitbox Medium Shield extenders Basic: 34/ -0% Advanced: 50/ -0% Complex: 67/ -0% Light Shield extenders (HP values unmodified by Shield extension skill, shield recharging skill lowers delay) Basic: 32/ +1% increased hitbox/ -10% shield recharge delay Advanced: 47/ +2% increased hitbox/ -15% shield recharge delay Complex: 63/ +3% increased hitbox/ -20% shield recharge delay Shield regulators (REMOVED) Shield rechargers (Vanilla) Don't agree with lot of things inside. Which is the shields? I would like to know what. Gotta keep in mind there are heavy suits which use shields. Didn't read "shield" i saw "hit box increase...." that's stupid (for the moment)......would ask lot of visual changmeents etcetc.... The purpose is to ask CCP easy changements, and look the title of the thread "Armor plate".
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 2451	Posted - 2014.04.09 20:33:00 - [54] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Simplifed your post to just numbers, and slightly altered some values to improve scaling. Also removed the level 5 bonus you applied so these are values at level 0. Applied this concept to shield tanking, and wrote a post about it. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=154463 The first part (armor) of this thread is a simplified version of the post above. Values slightly modified to remove the level 5 bonus applied in his numbers, and to scale armor a little better. I do not take or want credit for his idea. Heavy - Medium - Light HP tanking system Heavy HP systems give a lot of HP but with a penalty Medium HP systems give medium HP with no penalty Light HP systems give a little bit of HP, a bonus, and a penalty Armor plating: Heavy Armour plates (Speed penalty plates) Basic: 95/ -5% speed Advanced: 120/ -6% speed Complex: 145/ -7% speed Nanofibre Armor plates (Ferroscale plates) Basic: 44/ -0% Advanced: 65/ -0% Complex: 87/ -0% Reactive plates (HP values not affected by armor plating skill, repair values are) Basic: 42/ -2%/ 2 HP/s Advanced: 62/ -3%/ 3 HP/s Complex: 85/ -4%/ 5 HP/s Armor repairers Basic: 3 Advanced: 5 Complex: 7 Shield extension: Heavy Shield extenders Basic: 67/ 3% increased hitbox Advanced: 84/ 4% increased hitbox Complex: 101/ 5% increased hitbox Medium Shield extenders Basic: 34/ -0% Advanced: 50/ -0% Complex: 67/ -0% Light Shield extenders (HP values unmodified by Shield extension skill, shield recharging skill lowers delay) Basic: 32/ +1% increased hitbox/ -10% shield recharge delay Advanced: 47/ +2% increased hitbox/ -15% shield recharge delay Complex: 63/ +3% increased hitbox/ -20% shield recharge delay Shield regulators (REMOVED) Shield rechargers (Vanilla) Don't agree with lot of things inside. "Increasing hitbox" stupid. Means shooting next to him will hit ? That's WTF ???? Hp vlaues of Ferroscales are too big. (a little bit) Hp values of Reactives is LOLWUT. SO MUCH HP SO MUCH REGEN SO NO PENALITY ? Regen tanking is supposed to be PASSIVE. And the most important point of it : WAY less effective than Brick tanking for a direct encounter. You're bringing a gamebreaking way of tanking. You seems to forget Skills on it. You ask to add 25% on THAT ? SERIOUSLY ???? It means a buff about 80% to ferroscales and reactives ....WTF? Please remove your post dude. Or check again numbers. Regen tanking is not meant to be god mode. 40hp/s needs to come with PENALITIES. No penality about regen on heavy plate ? LOL WUT ? Welcome your 18hp/s with 500 armor..... Dude seriously, armor rep and heavy plates must NOT be able to bem ixed without penalities. Wait what 0.0 these are your numbers all I did was remove the level 5 bonus the HP is lower than the one you posted. And the HP mal us still applies I just didn't add it because I don't know how to explain it. For example you said with level 5 a basic shield is 104.5, 104.5/1.1 = 95 the same with the Ferroscale plates the HP iS what you wrote without the 10% bonus level 5 gives. For the Federation!
Mordecai Sanguine What The French Red Whines. 587	Posted - 2014.04.09 20:37:00 - [55] - Quote Oh wait wut.....WHAT ? I lmust really be ****** up (Bad days..still sick and no medicine for me ....) 10 min ago there was a 1....seems like.....Wuuuut ? My bad must be tired. (I take bad what i've said, of course...) Could we continue tomorrow ?
Auris Lionesse Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 711	Posted - 2014.04.09 20:41:00 - [56] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Auris Lionesse wrote: I disagree with penalties on reactive plates. If were gonna fix it we need to do it right. 8 slot high/low maximum. Rebalance all suits and layouts. add resistance mods low Change damage mods low. Break them down to four types instead of one blanket mod and put them back up to 10% to counter new built in suit resistances and resistance mods. Speed mods high. add e warfare. ferroscale should give a percentage and if we do rep tanking triage nanohives need to get the axe and armor repair tools need to be remodeled and go to gallente and amarr. a protod out gal suit should with a bunch of rep mods should achieve what a triage hive does. Rep tank means I need to be able to rep in battle and not have the amount be trivial. Shields need to rep passively and that problems effectively fixed there. Lignd heavy suits should have light and heavy armor mods and same for shields. You can't put battleship/cruiser plates on a frigate. You can't put medium/heavy plates on a light suit. Problem solved. Someone on the first page talked about how theres supposed to be thousands of fitting options. That's impossible when there's no suit variety and no module variety which is why we new to eveify. We should be working on eve parity first. Pretty much everything you said is a bad idea. I'll give you resistance mods but we have too many low slot mods compared to high slots as is. Speed mods high I'll take too. Ewar already exists but we could definitely do with more. The bad stuff: All suits are being rebalanced - half of it was done for 1.8; the rest is incoming shortly. Damage mods are ok now, maybe a wee buff - they were so strong before, they were more worthwhile than shields for the fittings cost. Ferroscale should definitely not be % based. They're intended for people like scouts - % based would make them strongest for heavies. If anything was to be % based it would be the 'heavy plates' to discourage light suit use. Reppers do need a buff but to make them that strong would invalidate shield recharge. If shield recharge was passive, there'd be nothing to set it apart from armor repping. This is Dust - we are all clones and we don't vary in size anywhere near as much as Eve ships. Whilst there are some good things in Eve that Dust should be trying to use itself, it must be remembered that this is NOT Eve and not everything translates across to an FPS well. No this is eve. It's in the games title. We need to utilize the mechanics that have been perfected over the last decade. the only reason I upped damage mods back was to account for the increase from new damage resists. The reason we lowered damage mods is because we can't reach high resistances like eve. Once we add that mechanic in it'll be fine to have damage mods where they started out. And armor repping is supposed to be an active feature. The way it is now is wrong. 5hp a second is a joke. Shields are supposed to rep passively and armor reps with an active mod. eve online already invented the wheel. dont need to tear it apart and try to make a square wheel. It works best as a circle. And what Ewarfare? I can't knock peoples range down so they can't shoot me or slow down their turning speed so I can out maneuver them. Scanners and dampening are pathetic. Most of this games problems stem from how different it is from eve only e despite the fact they're supposed to mirror each other. If dusts systemwas work g we wouldn't be on the forums suggesting ways to fix it. Eveification would change that. Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Heroes in a half Gank! *TURTLE POWER!!!*
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2819	Posted - 2014.04.09 20:43:00 - [57] - Quote Mordecai Sanguine wrote: Django Quik wrote: @Mordecai - Didn't see the repper numbers the first time; I don't think it's enough, stacking 4 complex would only get you ~30hp/s. I'd go a little further; maybe not as far as I said in my post above but perhaps 3 / 6 / 9 before skills. Dudes WAKE THE HELL UP. 50hp/s (or 40) is GOD MODE. Have you ever see a Gallente Heavy on a Compact Nanohive ? He's barely invicible. Even me i was Amarr Logi Full Regen tanking, 20hp/s i was damn ***** powerful negating half of the shots.... Guys you're clearly going TOO far. The numbers of black is not totally **, in fact only some penality here or there are really too low, but guys...regen tanking is about "time" distance or quick backstab, not a front. Regen values are great ;) (Black) But yours is well....a bit too big. I've tried rep tanking with 24hp/s and it was useless. Even with 40hp/s, that would still only be around 10% of the DPS a lot of weapons put out. Keep in mind that that's using all your low slots, so you don't get to put any extra armor on to make actual use of those reps. Yes, you'l rep to full in seconds but you'll not survive long under fire at all. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2819	Posted - 2014.04.09 20:50:00 - [58] - Quote @Auris Lionesse - dude, I think you need to go back to Eve. This is an FPS. You're trying to add things to a fast paced shooter that only work in an environment where locking on is always necessary and it's slow enough to make calculations on everything you do. Just because they're set in the same universe and share lore, it doesn't mean the mechanics are suitable for an entirely different genre of game. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Auris Lionesse Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 711	Posted - 2014.04.09 21:00:00 - [59] - Quote Django Quik wrote: @Auris Lionesse - dude, I think you need to go back to Eve. This is an FPS. You're trying to add things to a fast paced shooter that only work in an environment where locking on is always necessary and it's slow enough to make calculations on everything you do. Just because they're set in the same universe and share lore, it doesn't mean the mechanics are suitable for an entirely different genre of game. I'm not try to change mechanics in dust to lockon combat. I'm applying what we know works to a fps setting because all dust is is a fps version of eve on planets instead of space. How do you know they dont work if the game has never had any of them implemented. You don't your just assuming because your having problems trying to comprehend them just as I'm assuming they'd work because I know it works in eve so there's no reason yet why they shouldn't work here. you just have to make the correct alterations. Certain people say oh that doesn't work but they can never seem to explain exactly why. And your right lol I wish I could go back to eve. It doesn't look like garbage or have balancing issues or feel completely unfinished. Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Heroes in a half Gank! *TURTLE POWER!!!*
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2819	Posted - 2014.04.09 21:09:00 - [60] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: Certain people say oh that doesn't work but they can never seem to explain exactly why. And your right lol I wish I could go back to eve. It doesn't look like garbage or have balancing issues or feel completely unfinished. I'll gladly explain why - it's too complicated for FPS gameplay. So, if this game is so bad, why are you playing it? Why don't you go back to Eve because that's clearly the game you want to be playing? Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts

Auris Lionesse Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 711	Posted - 2014.04.09 21:30:00 - [61] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Auris Lionesse wrote: Certain people say oh that doesn't work but they can never seem to explain exactly why. And your right lol I wish I could go back to eve. It doesn't look like garbage or have balancing issues or feel completely unfinished. I'll gladly explain why - it's too complicated for FPS gameplay. So, if this game is so bad, why are you playing it? Why don't you go back to Eve because that's clearly the game you want to be playing? Again your assuming it's too complicated for an fps. My argument is this game isn't complicated enough to be an fps in new Eden. All we know for sure is what ccp shanghai is doing doesn't work, you can't dumb down a game like eve online or fps. You have to do all or nothing because it doesn't work otherwise. which we see in balance and things like damage mods. it works when all the parts are present and worming together. You can't cut half of them out and say oh well it's an fps. I'm not currently playing dust. I havent for weeks, no Internet and even if I had it I wouldn't play dust anymore anyway because it's too far gone from 2009. I'm sticking around the forums till fanfest hoping for some last ditch radical changes to get this ame back on track and some sort of apology from ccp shanghai. I'm suggesting some myself in the mean time but if I don't see any I'm done. And I don't have a pc for eve. If I did I'd be there now because dust is a disgrace to the eve name. Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Heroes in a half Gank! *TURTLE POWER!!!*
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 124	Posted - 2014.04.09 21:46:00 - [62] - Quote Very nice. My singular concern is that if you buff reppers that much you'll have some people that run heavies (Amarr & Gallente I'm thinking) with half plates, half reppers and will have CRAZY armor regen on top of very large HP pools. Not sure if it woud be bad enough to be considered OP, but it would certainly be rough to fight them. Especially for a squishy lil Minmatar Commando like me Proud Federal Marine & Republic Commando / Do you even lift bro?
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2819	Posted - 2014.04.09 22:02:00 - [63] - Quote Zaaeed Massani wrote: Very nice. My singular concern is that if you buff reppers that much you'll have some people that run heavies (Amarr & Gallente I'm thinking) with half plates, half reppers and will have CRAZY armor regen on top of very large HP pools. Not sure if it woud be bad enough to be considered OP, but it would certainly be rough to fight them. Especially for a squishy lil Minmatar Commando like me ~20hp/s isn't that crazy and only accounts for about 5% of the DPS of many weapons. Rep tools and triage hives are still going to be waaaay more powerful and the only way to stay alive under any sustained fire. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2819	Posted - 2014.04.09 22:08:00 - [64] - Quote @auris - Dust can not be as complex as Eve because it's a different genre on a different platform with a different business model. Free2Play has to be accessible because it relies on getting as many people to play as possible. This is already probably past the point of complexity that the general populace will be able to handle and making it worse will just be a massive "no entry" sign to anyone who is not already familiar with Eve and we already struggle for new players as it is. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns Dark Taboo 124	Posted - 2014.04.09 22:26:00 - [65] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Zaaeed Massani wrote: Very nice. My singular concern is that if you buff reppers that much you'll have some people that run heavies (Amarr & Gallente I'm thinking) with half plates, half reppers and will have CRAZY armor regen on top of very large HP pools. Not sure if it woud be bad enough to be considered OP, but it would certainly be rough to fight them. Especially for a squishy lil Minmatar Commando like me ~20hp/s isn't that crazy and only accounts for about 5% of the DPS of many weapons. Rep tools and triage hives are still going to be waaaay more powerful and the only way to stay alive under any sustained fire. That's true, but for hit-and-fade attackers it will be extremely powerful. Proud Federal Marine & Republic Commando / Do you even lift bro?
Auris Lionesse Capital Acquisitions LLC Dirt Nap Squad. 711	Posted - 2014.04.09 23:28:00 - [66] - Quote Django Quik wrote: @auris - Dust can not be as complex as Eve because it's a different genre on a different platform with a different business model. Free2Play has to be accessible because it relies on getting as many people to play as possible. This is already probably past the point of complexity that the general populace will be able to handle and making it worse will just be a massive "no entry" sign to anyone who is not already familiar with Eve and we already struggle for new players as it is. Lmao because we already have so many people lining up to play. We need to switch to a subscription model too but that's at a later point when this game has some quality to it. Free to play isn't working. 80 million ps3s and we have 10k active users tops. Not catering to casual gamers is one if things that makes eve great and is why we have a good community. Non familiarity with eve is a big problem with npe. We need to make character creation more indepth and teach them how the game is supposed to work. the tutorial now is way too simple also This is why new players to the game suck and have no idea what they're doing. Blueberrys are idiots because things are too simple and dumbed down. Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Heroes in a half Gank! *TURTLE POWER!!!*
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2825	Posted - 2014.04.10 07:29:00 - [67] - Quote Auris Lionesse wrote: Django Quik wrote: @auris - Dust can not be as complex as Eve because it's a different genre on a different platform with a different business model. Free2Play has to be accessible because it relies on getting as many people to play as possible. This is already probably past the point of complexity that the general populace will be able to handle and making it worse will just be a massive "no entry" sign to anyone who is not already familiar with Eve and we already struggle for new players as it is. Lmao because we already have so many people lining up to play. We need to switch to a subscription model too but that's at a later point when this game has some quality to it. Free to play isn't working. 80 million ps3s and we have 10k active users tops. Not catering to casual gamers is one if things that makes eve great and is why we have a good community. Non familiarity with eve is a big problem with npe. We need to make character creation more indepth and teach them how the game is supposed to work. the tutorial now is way too simple also This is why new players to the game suck and have no idea what they're doing. Blueberrys are idiots because things are too simple and dumbed down. No, we don't have many players and that would be even worse if you tried to put a subscription only game on a console. The only reason we get any new players at all is because it's free. But we do have a lot more than 10k DAU, probably upwards of 20k, though still an unacceptably low amount. Yes, the tutorial is terrible and NPE is non-existent but that would not be helped at all by further complicating the game. Once again, this is an FPS not a space sim game. FPSs rely on a more casual playerbase than space sims - not to say it should be entirely based around casual play but it NEEDS to be a consideration. Some things will never work in Dust. Case in point active infantry armor repair - if you're into armor damage, given your opponent can actually aim and you're not a master bullet dodger, you're probably going to be dead in less than 2 seconds. During that time you're moving around trying to dodge and fire back - this requires all your fingers. At what point are you ever going to be able to press the right button combination to open the equipment wheel and activate your reppers? Just an example of why an FPS is too fast for some Eve concepts. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Mordecai Sanguine What The French Red Whines. 602	Posted - 2014.04.16 12:07:00 - [68] - Quote Bump.


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