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Passive Scanning is for Scouts - Active Scanning is for Logis

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Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2770	Posted - 2014.04.08 09:26:00 - [1] - Quote People keep asking for more and easier ways to counter scouts but everyone ignores that these counters already exist. Except for the best dampened scouts, all are detectable through active scanners. No one uses them anymore because they can't 360 perma-scan now but they are still useful things. Sit at your home edge of the complexes and scan in the direction of the complex and you will pick up pretty much the entire interior area. Use a logi if you don't have the fittings space on your assault; that's what logis are for. If you're still struggling, use better scanners and/or get a gal logi - that's what they're for! There are counters to everything in this game. Just because you can't fit ALL of them on every one of your suits, does not mean they are not there. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Jastad D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 691	Posted - 2014.04.08 09:27:00 - [2] - Quote Django Quik wrote: People keep asking for more and easier ways to counter scouts but everyone ignores that these counters already exist. Except for the best dampened scouts, all are detectable through active scanners. No one uses them anymore because they can't 360 perma-scan now but they are still useful things. Sit at your home edge of the complexes and scan in the direction of the complex and you will pick up pretty much the entire interior area. Use a logi if you don't have the fittings space on your assault; that's what logis are for. If you're still struggling, use better scanners and/or get a gal logi - that's what they're for! There are counters to everything in this game. Just because you can't fit ALL of them on every one of your suits, does not mean they are not there. Question time Have you tried the Scanners? Cal.Heavy-Min.Heavy-Amarr.Heavy Believe in the FORGE, young padawans SoloDoloreSuCharlie
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 5035	Posted - 2014.04.08 09:32:00 - [3] - Quote Scanners need the fix we were told they were getting, not the nerf CCP actually gave us. How they DID work: Scan time means Scanners could be used by "scannerinas" spinning around and getting 360 scans. How the fix was MEANT to work: Scanners take an instantaneous "snapshot" lighting everything up in a fixed arc with NO ability to extend it AT ALL by turning, and everything that's caught by the scanner being kept visible for a duration determined by the scanner model. How it ACTUALLY works: Scanners have a short duration of scanning and a significant nerf to their scanning arc, and if you try to pan while scanning, you'll have to turn at just the right speed or you'll miss targets which should be inside the area being scanned. None of this negates the fact that Active Scanners SHOULD be viable, and that once they're working properly, they'll be a good counter to a lot of Scouts.
Horizen Kenpachi Forsaken Immortals Top Men. 296	Posted - 2014.04.08 09:39:00 - [4] - Quote You guys got to used to the ballarina bug you can have that bug bk if i can shoot while cloaked they wernt nerfed they were put in place Hit me with your nerf bat.
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2772	Posted - 2014.04.08 09:40:00 - [5] - Quote Jastad wrote: Django Quik wrote: People keep asking for more and easier ways to counter scouts but everyone ignores that these counters already exist. Except for the best dampened scouts, all are detectable through active scanners. No one uses them anymore because they can't 360 perma-scan now but they are still useful things. Sit at your home edge of the complexes and scan in the direction of the complex and you will pick up pretty much the entire interior area. Use a logi if you don't have the fittings space on your assault; that's what logis are for. If you're still struggling, use better scanners and/or get a gal logi - that's what they're for! There are counters to everything in this game. Just because you can't fit ALL of them on every one of your suits, does not mean they are not there. Question time Have you tried the Scanners? Yes. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2772	Posted - 2014.04.08 09:48:00 - [6] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Scanners need the fix we were told they were getting, not the nerf CCP actually gave us. How they DID work: Scan time means Scanners could be used by "scannerinas" spinning around and getting 360 scans. How the fix was MEANT to work: Scanners take an instantaneous "snapshot" lighting everything up in a fixed arc with NO ability to extend it AT ALL by turning, and everything that's caught by the scanner being kept visible for a duration determined by the scanner model. How it ACTUALLY works: Scanners have a short duration of scanning and a significant nerf to their scanning arc, and if you try to pan while scanning, you'll have to turn at just the right speed or you'll miss targets which should be inside the area being scanned. None of this negates the fact that Active Scanners SHOULD be viable, and that once they're working properly, they'll be a good counter to a lot of Scouts. I don't think they're not working properly. You scan instantaneously and all the targets in the arc at time light up for the period. Trying to 'pan' or mini-scannerina screws it up, so don't bother. A cool change would be to make some scanners able to keep scanning for a period (I believe was the original intention of the old 'scanning period') but as soon as you move the scan breaks and the cooldown timer starts - that second part there should have been the real fix. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Broonfondle Majikthies Dogs of War Gaming Zero-Day 1096	Posted - 2014.04.08 09:53:00 - [7] - Quote I find it funny that CCP incorporated the 'Scanerina' into the mechanics of the scanner. I was thinking they would work like a quick shutter and 90-¦ would be scanned. But oh no. Lol CCP "...where Bylothgar the Ill-postured was made King of the People With No Name But Decent Footwear"
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 1832	Posted - 2014.04.08 09:59:00 - [8] - Quote Passive scan > Active scanner This is from a personal experience with both proto gal scout with maxed skills in scanning and proto gal logi with proto scanner. Scanners should be totally reworked. With a capacitor (like cloak device) Pulse 360-¦ scan (like vehicle scanner) Less range (from 50 to 80 meters) Real snapshot ( see the red only on each pulse) Each pulse should cost around 25% of the battery (can't scan under 50%). Gal logi should have a bonus on capacitor recharge time instead of target visibility. The unnamed new build it's so secret that nobody know what will be in it, even after patch notes.. \o/ summon me
Khan Hun Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 76	Posted - 2014.04.08 10:00:00 - [9] - Quote Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I see it right now: 1) The game is swarming with cloaked shotgun scouts 2) They 2-3 shot most suits before you can turn around to see them from cloaked 3) One counter is... another cloaked scout, which means even more scouts... 4) The other counter, is to run a max skilled gal logi with a proto scanner in a squad (But you still wont pick up max skilled gal scouts if they are cloaked with a basic damp) Obviously this is costlty, the angle of scan is small, and you are using proto when a BPO dragonfly gal scout with max skills will still evade your direct scan if they have a basic damp and cloak) To me that seems a bit over the top, I think scouts can be countered more easily by sticking together and having a whole squad running nanite injectors so if a scout takes out one person as they decloak, they can be killed and the guy injected without much issue. The problem with both of these counters is, you are effectively saying that in skirmish you need an organised squad to stand a chance against the swarm of shimmering shotgunners. For most people they wont do that, they'll just get bored and leave. You can QQ, dust is hard, etc all you like, but that kind of solo experience will kill any stream of new players into the game very quickly, which is bad news.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 5036	Posted - 2014.04.08 10:01:00 - [10] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Scanners need the fix we were told they were getting, not the nerf CCP actually gave us. How they DID work: Scan time means Scanners could be used by "scannerinas" spinning around and getting 360 scans. How the fix was MEANT to work: Scanners take an instantaneous "snapshot" lighting everything up in a fixed arc with NO ability to extend it AT ALL by turning, and everything that's caught by the scanner being kept visible for a duration determined by the scanner model. How it ACTUALLY works: Scanners have a short duration of scanning and a significant nerf to their scanning arc, and if you try to pan while scanning, you'll have to turn at just the right speed or you'll miss targets which should be inside the area being scanned. None of this negates the fact that Active Scanners SHOULD be viable, and that once they're working properly, they'll be a good counter to a lot of Scouts. I don't think they're not working properly. You scan instantaneously and all the targets in the arc at time light up for the period. Trying to 'pan' or mini-scannerina screws it up, so don't bother. A cool change would be to make some scanners able to keep scanning for a period (I believe was the original intention of the old 'scanning period') but as soon as you move the scan breaks and the cooldown timer starts - that second part there should have been the real fix. The problem is that the scanning arc was nerfed for no apparent reason, and trying to make up for that with a small pan across a short arc will usually (but not always) break the scan. That's exactly what I said. It should INSTANTLY "snap" and light everything up, then NOT be useful to turn or do anything to try and cover a wider arc than the listed value, but it should have a wider arc than the current stats on the scanners have.

KingBabar The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 2146	Posted - 2014.04.08 10:01:00 - [11] - Quote I don't get all this scanner QQ, I use it on every fitting except a few "specials", it Works very well, a useful tool to any team. Yes, it is on a scout suit... FU and FU Dust community, you're mostly a bunch of moronic carebear crybabies. Get good.
fragmentedhackslash Arrogance. 253	Posted - 2014.04.08 10:06:00 - [12] - Quote Allow Range amp, and precosion enhancements to adjust scanning equipment, I suggested this 4 months ago. Pain is just weakness leaving your body. Every day is a holiday. Every meal is a feast.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 5038	Posted - 2014.04.08 10:10:00 - [13] - Quote fragmentedhackslash wrote: Allow Range amp, and precosion enhancements to adjust scanning equipment, I suggested this 4 months ago. Nerf their baseline stats a little and I can support this. A Scanner-tanked Logi should be able to give up a module slot or two and pick up cloaked Scouts.
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2773	Posted - 2014.04.08 10:11:00 - [14] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: The problem is that the scanning arc was nerfed for no apparent reason, and trying to make up for that with a small pan across a short arc will usually (but not always) break the scan. That's exactly what I said. It should INSTANTLY "snap" and light everything up, then NOT be useful to turn or do anything to try and cover a wider arc than the listed value, but it should have a wider arc than the current stats on the scanners have. Agreed, CCP of course went a little too far with the nerf and to be perfectly honest I think (and I believe many scouts agreed pre1.8) that all that needed to be done to active scanner was to remove the ability to 360 perma scan. They clearly couldn't figure out a proper way to do that, so they fudged it by reducing the timer and arc so you couldn't spin all the way round. They're far from useless right now though. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2773	Posted - 2014.04.08 10:12:00 - [15] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: fragmentedhackslash wrote: Allow Range amp, and precosion enhancements to adjust scanning equipment, I suggested this 4 months ago. Nerf their baseline stats a little and I can support this. A Scanner-tanked Logi should be able to give up a module slot or two and pick up cloaked Scouts. I like this idea. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2773	Posted - 2014.04.08 10:15:00 - [16] - Quote Khan Hun wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I see it right now: ... 2) They 2-3 shot most suits before you can turn around to see them from cloaked 3) One counter is... another cloaked scout, which means even more scouts... 2) When the cloak insta shoot glitch is fixed the cloaked shotgunner problem will be vastly reduced. 3) You don't need to be a cloaked scout to pick up other scouts on passive scan - you need to be a scout. Oooor a logi with a focused scanner. Granted it's not the ideal scanner but it will pick up those cloaked scouts! Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
COVERT SUBTERFUGE PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 875	Posted - 2014.04.08 10:22:00 - [17] - Quote Passive and active scanners are for scouts. A scout can see people coming passively and relay that info to the team as they are less likely to waste a scan. Logis have awful passive scans and so the scanner is used blindly in most cases and if you miss you have a long ass down time to wait out. Proud Minmatar scout - Republic Merc 7/10 Immune to bitter/jaded vet syndrome Alt of THE GREY CARDINAL - eWar Merc
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2774	Posted - 2014.04.08 10:31:00 - [18] - Quote COVERT SUBTERFUGE wrote: Passive and active scanners are for scouts. A scout can see people coming passively and relay that info to the team as they are less likely to waste a scan. Logis have awful passive scans and so the scanner is used blindly in most cases and if you miss you have a long ass down time to wait out. It's not difficult to guess which way people might be approaching from - just because you can't scan everywhere at once, doesn't mean you can't scan the most likely places fairly regularly, NOT PERMANENTLY. There are only so many routes players can take and there are certain routes that scouts in particular are most likely to take. If you have a whole bunch of blues ahead of you, the scout is probably not going to come from that direction. Scouts flank, so if you're worried about scouts, watch the flanks. Edit - also, how are "active scanners for scouts"? We get no bonuses to them or fittings reductions and they take up one of our slots that would be better served by REs/Uplinks and/or cloak. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Jastad D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 692	Posted - 2014.04.08 11:10:00 - [19] - Quote KingBabar wrote: I don't get all this scanner QQ, I use it on every fitting except a few "specials", it Works very well, a useful tool to any team. Yes, it is on a scout suit... Guess that's that, the scanner....not your proto Scout CK0 Cal.Heavy-Min.Heavy-Amarr.Heavy Believe in the FORGE, young padawans SoloDoloreSuCharlie
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2776	Posted - 2014.04.08 11:15:00 - [20] - Quote Jastad wrote: KingBabar wrote: I don't get all this scanner QQ, I use it on every fitting except a few "specials", it Works very well, a useful tool to any team. Yes, it is on a scout suit... Guess that's that, the scanner....not your proto Scout CK0 Why would you use an active scanner on a caldari scout? Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts

Jastad D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 692	Posted - 2014.04.08 11:17:00 - [21] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Jastad wrote: KingBabar wrote: I don't get all this scanner QQ, I use it on every fitting except a few "specials", it Works very well, a useful tool to any team. Yes, it is on a scout suit... Guess that's that, the scanner....not your proto Scout CK0 Why would you use an active scanner on a caldari scout? No i was stating the humor in saying that the scanner is useful while running a full scout Ck0 Cal.Heavy-Min.Heavy-Amarr.Heavy Believe in the FORGE, young padawans SoloDoloreSuCharlie
Toby Flenderson research lab 456	Posted - 2014.04.08 11:27:00 - [22] - Quote Khan Hun wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I see it right now: 1) The game is swarming with cloaked shotgun scouts 2) They 2-3 shot most suits before you can turn around to see them from cloaked 3) One counter is... another cloaked scout, which means even more scouts... 4) The other counter, is to run a max skilled gal logi with a proto scanner in a squad (But you still wont pick up max skilled gal scouts if they are cloaked with a basic damp) Obviously this is costlty, the angle of scan is small, and you are using proto when a BPO dragonfly gal scout with max skills will still evade your direct scan if they have a basic damp and cloak) To me that seems a bit over the top, I think scouts can be countered more easily by sticking together and having a whole squad running nanite injectors so if a scout takes out one person as they decloak, they can be killed and the guy injected without much issue. The problem with both of these counters is, you are effectively saying that in skirmish you need an organised squad to stand a chance against the swarm of shimmering shotgunners. For most people they wont do that, they'll just get bored and leave. You can QQ, dust is hard, etc all you like, but that kind of solo experience will kill any stream of new players into the game very quickly, which is bad news. You forgot about passive scans. It shouldn't be easy for an assault or logi to completely counter scouts using passive/active scanners because stealth is basically what they have going for them. If all people had to do was do a 360 with a proto scanner, scouts would be pretty much worthless. They gave scouts the ability to have a stealth role and that role is simply nullified by the counter. There isn't really a continuous area between not seeing them and seeing them. You either do and they're worthless or you don't and they're amazing. If people want to break the scout's main quality, it should cost them. Not every suit should be able to do it as easily as others (assault vs. logi) but that's what needs to be considered when choosing a role. I prefer running around quickly, flanking objectives and helping my team out in that way. I did not pick a heavy suit for this task. It could be argued that stacking biopics on a heavy may allow you to do this but the point is there is a suit that's designed for this. The suits designed for countering scouts are the scouts and the right logi. If you're not using these then you shouldn't expect it to be easy to "see scouts" or even anything short of "extremely cost fitting wise". I suggest everyone make a suit with scan mods, or a scout suit. They're really not all that scary. You just have to decide for yourself: Do I give up 300 ehp to be able to see just about any suit within my scan range or would I prefer to be a blind tank? Just don't get pissed off when you can't do both.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 2625	Posted - 2014.04.08 11:41:00 - [23] - Quote I don't care what anyone says, scanners are bugged. I still use them, but they aren't picking up jack. I'm fine with not being able to be a scannerina, but fcking seriously I should still be able to scan while I'm moving! It just should increase my arc. Instead, it kills the whole thing. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics"* -Sun Tzu Forum Warrior lv.2 Amarr victor!
Galvan Nized Deep Space Republic 864	Posted - 2014.04.08 11:52:00 - [24] - Quote fragmentedhackslash wrote: Allow Range amp, and precision enhancements to adjust scanning equipment, I suggested this 4 months ago. Also for it to.affect a sniper rifle scope for target acquisition. Get an advanced cal scout, complex profile dampening = completly invisable. If they had separate stats for Active Scanners then sure, if not then no. We don't need 100m or 200m scanners getting 45% range increase from every amp, you could easily scan 300m. Same goes for precision enhancers. A single Gal Logi with one precision enhancer could scan at a little 17 with pro scanner and 12 with a focused. You would have to legitimately Nerf base stats to compensate and then you've basically made passive scans anyways.
KingBabar The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 2146	Posted - 2014.04.08 11:56:00 - [25] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: I don't care what anyone says, scanners are bugged. I still use them, but they aren't picking up jack. I'm fine with not being able to be a scannerina, but fcking seriously I should still be able to scan while I'm moving*! It just should increase my arc. Instead, it kills the whole thing. Can't stop for 1 second? My scanner picks up People no problem, which one are you using? It seems like the scanners Works best when standing still, I ofthen get bad results when moving which is why I don't. This might be an actual mechanic or merely something I believe to be true... FU and FU Dust community, you're mostly a bunch of moronic carebear crybabies. Get good.
NAV HIV The Generals General Tso's Alliance 1374	Posted - 2014.04.08 12:46:00 - [26] - Quote Jastad wrote: Django Quik wrote: People keep asking for more and easier ways to counter scouts but everyone ignores that these counters already exist. Except for the best dampened scouts, all are detectable through active scanners. No one uses them anymore because they can't 360 perma-scan now but they are still useful things. Sit at your home edge of the complexes and scan in the direction of the complex and you will pick up pretty much the entire interior area. Use a logi if you don't have the fittings space on your assault; that's what logis are for. If you're still struggling, use better scanners and/or get a gal logi - that's what they're for! There are counters to everything in this game. Just because you can't fit ALL of them on every one of your suits, does not mean they are not there. Question time Have you tried the Scanners? Why ?! It's useless cause people can't hold the scanning button, jump and do a 360?! That takes so much skills doesn't it.... The problem is people want to scan a 180k scout suit with a 30k logi suit....
Jastad D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 693	Posted - 2014.04.08 13:42:00 - [27] - Quote NAV HIV wrote: cut Why ?! It's useless cause people can't hold the scanning button, jump and do a 360?! That takes so much skills doesn't it.... The problem is people want to scan a 180k scout suit with a 30k logi suit.... [/quote] Dude, as a heavy i can't scan. The problem is that some people thinks that is stupid bring a 180k logi suit that can't scan a Dragonfly BPO. We ALL think that 360 spin scan was bad. What we have now is a "lack of counter" to the EWAR scout. Cal.Heavy-Min.Heavy-Amarr.Heavy Believe in the FORGE, young padawans SoloDoloreSuCharlie
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2780	Posted - 2014.04.08 14:37:00 - [28] - Quote Jastad wrote: NAV HIV wrote: Why ?! It's useless cause people can't hold the scanning button, jump and do a 360?! That takes so much skills doesn't it.... The problem is people want to scan a 180k scout suit with a 30k logi suit.... Dude, as a heavy i can't scan. The problem is that some people thinks that is stupid bring a 180k logi suit that can't scan a Dragonfly BPO. We ALL think that 360 spin scan was bad. What we have now is a "lack of counter" to the EWAR scout. Anyone with any suit with equipment slots can fit a proto scanner. You can fit a proto scanner on a BPO assault with only BPO mods and weapons if you really want to and then you have a counter that costs only the price of the proto scanner. There is a counter and almost everyone can use it (not heavies). So you post makes no sense. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2782	Posted - 2014.04.08 14:51:00 - [29] - Quote Here is an example of a reasonable counter to most scouts that costs just a tad over 30k isk and the only SP you need to have ever spent is on the skills required to get a proto scanner: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/index/0/3402 Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Yan Darn Science For Death 534	Posted - 2014.04.08 14:57:00 - [30] - Quote Khan Hun wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I see it right now: 1) The game is swarming with cloaked shotgun scouts 2) They 2-3 shot most suits before you can turn around to see them from cloaked 3) One counter is... another cloaked scout, which means even more scouts... 4) The other counter, is to run a max skilled gal logi with a proto scanner in a squad (But you still wont pick up max skilled gal scouts if they are cloaked with a basic damp) Obviously this is costlty, the angle of scan is small, and you are using proto when a BPO dragonfly gal scout with max skills will still evade your direct scan if they have a basic damp and cloak) To me that seems a bit over the top, I think scouts can be countered more easily by sticking together and having a whole squad running nanite injectors so if a scout takes out one person as they decloak, they can be killed and the guy injected without much issue. The problem with both of these counters is, you are effectively saying that in skirmish you need an organised squad to stand a chance against the swarm of shimmering shotgunners. For most people they wont do that, they'll just get bored and leave. You can QQ, dust is hard, etc all you like, but that kind of solo experience will kill any stream of new players into the game very quickly, which is bad news. FYI this was always possible before 1.8 - I was always under 28db with my Valor until I accepted most people just ran ADV scanners anyway, so being under 36db with just passive skills was enough. We don't want to a very specific fitting on just one scout being the only way to avoid proto-focused again. However I agree the barrier between scanning and stealth is probably bigger than it needs to be. It just irks me when I see people complaining about the things scouts could/did always do... The Ghost of Bravo



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