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So how much worth does stamina have?

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Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 562	Posted - 2014.03.16 20:13:00 - [1] - Quote Now of course large differences in stamina and recovery do make appreciable differences, this can be seen when going from a heavy suit to a scout suit (aside from the raw speed difference.) The question is though, among suits of the same class, what difference does it actually make?? So to illustrate what kind of differences stamina makes for suits, I figured I could throw a few pictures at you guys. Here is the stamina levels of our scout with various amounts of cardiac mods on them: Stamina Stamina Recovery Wow looks like that bonus makes a pretty big difference doesn't it? Here is the difference those bars actually make: Clicky Why choose a marathon run? Well, it is the most demanding activity that you could do constantly involving both stamina and recovery. As both jumping and melee involve percentages of you stamina, rather than amounts, there is no reason to involve those activities. Believe me when I say there is no fairer way to compare stamina and recharge values as they apply in-game. In the end though, you be the judge. Is the bonus useful? While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
DozersMouse XIII Ultramarine Corp 162	Posted - 2014.03.16 20:17:00 - [2] - Quote if you play like I do stamina and regen is my number 1 priority under stealth Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 562	Posted - 2014.03.16 20:43:00 - [3] - Quote DozersMouse XIII wrote: if you play like I do stamina and regen is my number 1 priority under stealth What does this even mean? IF you look above, you can see that at no time will the amarrian suit's bonus help out in those regards. As far as jumping is concerned, the amarrian suit is the worst, as it takes longer to refill percentages of it's stamina pool than any other scout, so it is horrible for that. Sprinting, the chart shows that it is still lagging behind both the gallente and caldari scouts, not tp mention being crushed by the minmatar. Melee'ing? See jumping. If you really do care about stamina, you care about the effectiveness of your stamina too. The amarr suit is the worst of the scouts from a stamina effectiveness perspective. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
DozersMouse XIII Ultramarine Corp 164	Posted - 2014.03.16 20:47:00 - [4] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: DozersMouse XIII wrote: if you play like I do stamina and regen is my number 1 priority under stealth What does this even mean? IF you look above, you can see that at no time will the amarrian suit's bonus help out in those regards. As far as jumping is concerned, the amarrian suit is the worst, as it takes longer to refill percentages of it's stamina pool than any other scout, so it is horrible for that. Sprinting, the chart shows that it is still lagging behind both the gallente and caldari scouts, not tp mention being crushed by the minmatar. Melee'ing? See jumping. If you really do care about stamina, you care about the effectiveness of your stamina too. The amarr suit is the worst of the scouts from a stamina effectiveness perspective. well im not amarr im gallente and im speaking from a gallente SCOUT prospective Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
DozersMouse XIII Ultramarine Corp 164	Posted - 2014.03.16 20:53:00 - [5] - Quote im also speaking from playing scout my whole DUST career you guys arent gonna quit until the amarr scout is OP and has bonuses to every aspect of the suit Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 1696	Posted - 2014.03.16 20:55:00 - [6] - Quote My worth: Speed > Stamina If you're slow and can't get to cover as a scout, you're doing it wrong.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 564	Posted - 2014.03.16 21:03:00 - [7] - Quote DozersMouse XIII wrote: im also speaking from playing scout my whole DUST career you guys arent gonna quit until the amarr scout is OP and has bonuses to every aspect of the suit Dude just prove me wrong. I am not asking for "a feeling" or "experience" or "a trick knee." Just prove me wrong. You can't, so now you QQ. I do enjoy the tears. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
DozersMouse XIII Ultramarine Corp 165	Posted - 2014.03.16 21:08:00 - [8] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: DozersMouse XIII wrote: im also speaking from playing scout my whole DUST career you guys arent gonna quit until the amarr scout is OP and has bonuses to every aspect of the suit Dude just prove me wrong. I am not asking for "a feeling" or "experience" or "a trick knee." Just prove me wrong. You can't, so now you QQ. I do enjoy the tears. no QQ when 1.8 hits I have an account set up with 9 mill unallocated SP just for this scout and I will fit it properly and wreck ass with it no matter what you think of its bonuses Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
Zirzo Valcyn Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 226	Posted - 2014.03.16 21:10:00 - [9] - Quote i' would trade my minass bonus for the amarr scout bonus. stamina is way under rated u can ban the troll out of the forums but u can't ban the forums out of the troll. forum warrior .189
Derrith Erador The Panty Pugilists 1300	Posted - 2014.03.16 21:12:00 - [10] - Quote DozersMouse XIII wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: DozersMouse XIII wrote: im also speaking from playing scout my whole DUST career you guys arent gonna quit until the amarr scout is OP and has bonuses to every aspect of the suit Dude just prove me wrong. I am not asking for "a feeling" or "experience" or "a trick knee." Just prove me wrong. You can't, so now you QQ. I do enjoy the tears. no QQ when 1.8 hits I have an account set up with 9 mill unallocated SP just for this scout and I will fit it properly and wreck ass with it no matter what you think of its bonuses I'm not asking for the amarr scout to be OP. I'm asking that its bonus for stamina regen actually be better. A hobo scout gets more regen than us, and we're the stamina experts, I'm not saying they need to nerf this or that, just that our specialty should be that, ours. The lone monk who traverses the treacherous worlds of New Eden in search of panty dropper songs. Amarrican to the core.

DozersMouse XIII Ultramarine Corp 167	Posted - 2014.03.16 21:15:00 - [11] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: DozersMouse XIII wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: DozersMouse XIII wrote: im also speaking from playing scout my whole DUST career you guys arent gonna quit until the amarr scout is OP and has bonuses to every aspect of the suit Dude just prove me wrong. I am not asking for "a feeling" or "experience" or "a trick knee." Just prove me wrong. You can't, so now you QQ. I do enjoy the tears. no QQ when 1.8 hits I have an account set up with 9 mill unallocated SP just for this scout and I will fit it properly and wreck ass with it no matter what you think of its bonuses I'm not asking for the amarr scout to be OP. I'm asking that its bonus for stamina regen actually be better. A hobo scout gets more regen than us, and we're the stamina experts, I'm not saying they need to nerf this or that, just that our specialty should be that, ours. 15% to max stamina and 5% to regen per level this is almost a complex mod Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
Derrith Erador The Panty Pugilists 1300	Posted - 2014.03.16 21:18:00 - [12] - Quote DozersMouse XIII wrote: Derrith Erador wrote: DozersMouse XIII wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: DozersMouse XIII wrote: im also speaking from playing scout my whole DUST career you guys arent gonna quit until the amarr scout is OP and has bonuses to every aspect of the suit Dude just prove me wrong. I am not asking for "a feeling" or "experience" or "a trick knee." Just prove me wrong. You can't, so now you QQ. I do enjoy the tears. no QQ when 1.8 hits I have an account set up with 9 mill unallocated SP just for this scout and I will fit it properly and wreck ass with it no matter what you think of its bonuses I'm not asking for the amarr scout to be OP. I'm asking that its bonus for stamina regen actually be better. A hobo scout gets more regen than us, and we're the stamina experts, I'm not saying they need to nerf this or that, just that our specialty should be that, ours. 15% to max stamina and 5% to regen per level this is almost a complex mod actually that's pretty good. The lone monk who traverses the treacherous worlds of New Eden in search of panty dropper songs. Amarrican to the core.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 565	Posted - 2014.03.16 21:22:00 - [13] - Quote DozersMouse XIII wrote: Derrith Erador wrote: DozersMouse XIII wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: DozersMouse XIII wrote: im also speaking from playing scout my whole DUST career you guys arent gonna quit until the amarr scout is OP and has bonuses to every aspect of the suit Dude just prove me wrong. I am not asking for "a feeling" or "experience" or "a trick knee." Just prove me wrong. You can't, so now you QQ. I do enjoy the tears. no QQ when 1.8 hits I have an account set up with 9 mill unallocated SP just for this scout and I will fit it properly and wreck ass with it no matter what you think of its bonuses I'm not asking for the amarr scout to be OP. I'm asking that its bonus for stamina regen actually be better. A hobo scout gets more regen than us, and we're the stamina experts, I'm not saying they need to nerf this or that, just that our specialty should be that, ours. 15% to max stamina and 5% to regen per level this is almost a complex mod You realize those charts above are based on math right? So do you know what that math tells me about you suggestion? #1) the amarr suit will still never get anywhere, no matter how far away it is, faster than the minmatar suit. You could make it 10,000 base stamina and it will still never do it. Oh and it will barely beat the gallente and caldari now... jsut barely #2) The amarr suit will almost never be able to jump. Jumping, being percentage based, is dependant on have a much higher stamina recovery than stamina pool. What you did here was reverse it, so that the amarr suit will never be able to jump. #3) You really have no understanding at all about how stamina and stamina recovery interact, and how they effect suit performance. #4) You think stamina and stamina recovery are two seperate bonuses.. lol Please look at those charts and TRY to comprehend them. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
DozersMouse XIII Ultramarine Corp 173	Posted - 2014.03.16 21:52:00 - [14] - Quote have never played in a scout suit before? Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 568	Posted - 2014.03.16 23:40:00 - [15] - Quote DozersMouse XIII wrote: have never played in a scout suit before? Of course I have, quite a bit actually. On the other hand, I have a question for you. WHAT THE FLYING **** DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYHTING? I am trying as hard as I can to think of a question that is equally as stupid and I just can't. I am sure in your little brain you thought that somehow "being" a scout would have some ethereal value and lend credence to whatever inane drivel would follow, but it wouldn't. TLDR: Just stop. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 13420	Posted - 2014.03.17 00:01:00 - [16] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: DozersMouse XIII wrote: have never played in a scout suit before? Of course I have, quite a bit actually. On the other hand, I have a question for you. WHAT THE FLYING **** DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYHTING? I am trying as hard as I can to think of a question that is equally as stupid and I just can't. I am sure in your little brain you thought that somehow "being" a scout would have some ethereal value and lend credence to whatever inane drivel would follow, but it wouldn't. TLDR: Just stop. Quite a bit actually, Scouts are primarily are not marathon runners. We're not running the entire time in urbanized areas we're burst running spot to spot getting in and out of action as needed. Stamina stored is good, so is recovery. A math chart I would like to see is the x sec to x rest burst to cover to cover runs complete with a jump every x cycles for hopping over those obstacles. 5-7 run, 3 rest, and 3 cycles a jump sounds about average. I'm an omni and know better. Only marathon scouts that exists are the snipers most of the time. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 103	Posted - 2014.03.17 00:04:00 - [17] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: DozersMouse XIII wrote: have never played in a scout suit before? Of course I have, quite a bit actually. On the other hand, I have a question for you. WHAT THE FLYING **** DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYHTING? I am trying as hard as I can to think of a question that is equally as stupid and I just can't. I am sure in your little brain you thought that somehow "being" a scout would have some ethereal value and lend credence to whatever inane drivel would follow, but it wouldn't. TLDR: Just stop. Quite a bit actually, Scouts are primarily are not marathon runners. We're not running the entire time in urbanized areas we're burst running spot to spot getting in and out of action as needed. Stamina stored is good, so is recovery. A math chart I would like to see is the x sec to x rest burst to cover to cover runs complete with a jump every 3 cycles. I'm an omni and know better. Only marathon scouts that exists are the snipers. Egad, I smell common sense in the "Im not OP enough" forum thread Kills-Archduke Ferdinand Balance!
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 570	Posted - 2014.03.17 00:14:00 - [18] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: DozersMouse XIII wrote: have never played in a scout suit before? Of course I have, quite a bit actually. On the other hand, I have a question for you. WHAT THE FLYING **** DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYHTING? I am trying as hard as I can to think of a question that is equally as stupid and I just can't. I am sure in your little brain you thought that somehow "being" a scout would have some ethereal value and lend credence to whatever inane drivel would follow, but it wouldn't. TLDR: Just stop. Quite a bit actually, Scouts are primarily are not marathon runners. We're not running the entire time in urbanized areas we're burst running spot to spot getting in and out of action as needed. Stamina stored is good, so is recovery. A math chart I would like to see is the x sec to x rest burst to cover to cover runs complete with a jump every 3 cycles. I'm an omni and know better. Only marathon scouts that exists are the snipers. So once again, the marathon is the absolute most advantageous scenerio possible for stamina/stamina regen bonuses. What it does is allow a suit with high stamina/regen to outlast and out-regen the other suits. In this testing scenario, with everything set up in it's favor, the amarrian suit fails. Ok, so a jump take a percentage of your stamina... not sure how many times I am going to have to say this. It is the absolute worst thing you could do as an amarr scout. The amarr scout is HORRIBLE at jumping, as it will burn through way more stamina, and ht amarrian suit is the slowest to regain percentages of it's stamina. Anyway, if you want to see who gets where faster, just look at the graph I posted in the other forum topic. No matter what situation you are in, the minmatar suit is better from a run/rest cover 2 cover scout, and it is not even close. No really, the minmatar suit DESTROYs the amarr suit in that capacity, oh and it doesn't have to waste a sh-tty bonus to do it either. GG CSM, once again you guys were involved with just f-cking horrible game balancing. Is it on purpose or is this CSM just that bad at balancing suggestion? While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 570	Posted - 2014.03.17 00:15:00 - [19] - Quote Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: DozersMouse XIII wrote: have never played in a scout suit before? Of course I have, quite a bit actually. On the other hand, I have a question for you. WHAT THE FLYING **** DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYHTING? I am trying as hard as I can to think of a question that is equally as stupid and I just can't. I am sure in your little brain you thought that somehow "being" a scout would have some ethereal value and lend credence to whatever inane drivel would follow, but it wouldn't. TLDR: Just stop. Quite a bit actually, Scouts are primarily are not marathon runners. We're not running the entire time in urbanized areas we're burst running spot to spot getting in and out of action as needed. Stamina stored is good, so is recovery. A math chart I would like to see is the x sec to x rest burst to cover to cover runs complete with a jump every 3 cycles. I'm an omni and know better. Only marathon scouts that exists are the snipers. Egad, I smell common sense in the "Im not OP enough" forum thread No you are just stupid. For proof I wil show how you quoted the dumbest of all CSM, who is proven wrong routinely, and just abandons thread, never to admit he was wrong. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
DEZKA DIABLO 0uter.Heaven 395	Posted - 2014.03.17 00:25:00 - [20] - Quote For 3 days all I see is you and soul posting all this crap and your both hardly scouts and neither of you have tried the suits or listen to what vet scouts say , you might suck in this suit but the rest of us won't lol! Dead trigger master , an ya I do that ISH ON PURPOSE!

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8297	Posted - 2014.03.17 00:27:00 - [21] - Quote Even if you are spot to spot runners, and you are assuming and urban situation where such movements are universal to all suits, we'd still do it the slowest. Now in open areas where marathon runs do take place, and Aisha makes them frequently to lay uplinks before we ever arrive at an objective, we would be slower....... " ..- -.- --. I wish I remembered morse code so I wasn't typing random letters" - Malleus Malificorum
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 13420	Posted - 2014.03.17 00:27:00 - [22] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: DozersMouse XIII wrote: have never played in a scout suit before? Of course I have, quite a bit actually. On the other hand, I have a question for you. WHAT THE FLYING **** DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYHTING? I am trying as hard as I can to think of a question that is equally as stupid and I just can't. I am sure in your little brain you thought that somehow "being" a scout would have some ethereal value and lend credence to whatever inane drivel would follow, but it wouldn't. TLDR: Just stop. Quite a bit actually, Scouts are primarily are not marathon runners. We're not running the entire time in urbanized areas we're burst running spot to spot getting in and out of action as needed. Stamina stored is good, so is recovery. A math chart I would like to see is the x sec to x rest burst to cover to cover runs complete with a jump every 3 cycles. I'm an omni and know better. Only marathon scouts that exists are the snipers. So once again, the marathon is the absolute most advantageous scenerio possible for stamina/stamina regen bonuses. What it does is allow a suit with high stamina/regen to outlast and out-regen the other suits. In this testing scenario, with everything set up in it's favor, the amarrian suit fails. Ok, so a jump take a percentage of your stamina... not sure how many times I am going to have to say this. It is the absolute worst thing you could do as an amarr scout. The amarr scout is HORRIBLE at jumping, as it will burn through way more stamina, and ht amarrian suit is the slowest to regain percentages of it's stamina. Anyway, if you want to see who gets where faster, just look at the graph I posted in the other forum topic. No matter what situation you are in, the minmatar suit is better from a run/rest cover 2 cover scout, and it is not even close. No really, the minmatar suit DESTROYs the amarr suit in that capacity, oh and it doesn't have to waste a sh-tty bonus to do it either. GG CSM, once again you guys were involved with just f-cking horrible game balancing. Is it on purpose or is this CSM just that bad at balancing suggestion? Who in the hell marathons mid game? Also I didn't mention any suits specifically I just wanted the math. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 571	Posted - 2014.03.17 00:32:00 - [23] - Quote DEZKA DIABLO wrote: For 3 days all I see is you and soul posting all this crap and your both hardly scouts and neither of you have tried the suits or listen to what vet scouts say , you might suck in this suit but the rest of us won't lol! Lol what? Ok so I have to assume that english is you second or third language, so I will forgive the broken statements that you have been making the last few days. Actually I commend you on learning a non-native language. So, for 3+ days, acutally more like a month, I have been using solid FACTS to make a case. You have been using the force or whatever, suppling no sound reasoning, no mathematical data, no anything of any value to an adult conversation at all. Why should I take anything you say seriously at all? Also, I have been playing for like idk 9-10 months, not as long as some, but still more than long enough to know dust inside and out. I also have 2 scout BPO suits that are used in regular rotation. I also almost always do pretty awesome in the scout suit because I use it as a scout suit, not an assault suit. You know what.... Screw that, I am not going to talk to you like I have ANYTHING to prove, because I do not. I have proven time and again, crunched numbers, used rational argument, made charts and graphs all detailing how the amarr scout is lol. You have done jack-sh-t except come on the forums in your broken english. STFU. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 571	Posted - 2014.03.17 00:35:00 - [24] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: DozersMouse XIII wrote: have never played in a scout suit before? Of course I have, quite a bit actually. On the other hand, I have a question for you. WHAT THE FLYING **** DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYHTING? I am trying as hard as I can to think of a question that is equally as stupid and I just can't. I am sure in your little brain you thought that somehow "being" a scout would have some ethereal value and lend credence to whatever inane drivel would follow, but it wouldn't. TLDR: Just stop. Quite a bit actually, Scouts are primarily are not marathon runners. We're not running the entire time in urbanized areas we're burst running spot to spot getting in and out of action as needed. Stamina stored is good, so is recovery. A math chart I would like to see is the x sec to x rest burst to cover to cover runs complete with a jump every 3 cycles. I'm an omni and know better. Only marathon scouts that exists are the snipers. So once again, the marathon is the absolute most advantageous scenerio possible for stamina/stamina regen bonuses. What it does is allow a suit with high stamina/regen to outlast and out-regen the other suits. In this testing scenario, with everything set up in it's favor, the amarrian suit fails. Ok, so a jump take a percentage of your stamina... not sure how many times I am going to have to say this. It is the absolute worst thing you could do as an amarr scout. The amarr scout is HORRIBLE at jumping, as it will burn through way more stamina, and ht amarrian suit is the slowest to regain percentages of it's stamina. Anyway, if you want to see who gets where faster, just look at the graph I posted in the other forum topic. No matter what situation you are in, the minmatar suit is better from a run/rest cover 2 cover scout, and it is not even close. No really, the minmatar suit DESTROYs the amarr suit in that capacity, oh and it doesn't have to waste a sh-tty bonus to do it either. GG CSM, once again you guys were involved with just f-cking horrible game balancing. Is it on purpose or is this CSM just that bad at balancing suggestion? Who in the hell marathons mid game? Also I didn't mention any suits specifically I just wanted the math. So you don't even know how to read do you? I have to assume that you don't based on the fact that what you wrote had NOTHING AT ALL to do with what I wrote. EDIT: Also, my point stands, none of you can disprove it. Not even close. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8299	Posted - 2014.03.17 00:37:00 - [25] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: DozersMouse XIII wrote: have never played in a scout suit before? Of course I have, quite a bit actually. On the other hand, I have a question for you. WHAT THE FLYING **** DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYHTING? I am trying as hard as I can to think of a question that is equally as stupid and I just can't. I am sure in your little brain you thought that somehow "being" a scout would have some ethereal value and lend credence to whatever inane drivel would follow, but it wouldn't. TLDR: Just stop. Quite a bit actually, Scouts are primarily are not marathon runners. We're not running the entire time in urbanized areas we're burst running spot to spot getting in and out of action as needed. Stamina stored is good, so is recovery. A math chart I would like to see is the x sec to x rest burst to cover to cover runs complete with a jump every 3 cycles. I'm an omni and know better. Only marathon scouts that exists are the snipers. So once again, the marathon is the absolute most advantageous scenerio possible for stamina/stamina regen bonuses. What it does is allow a suit with high stamina/regen to outlast and out-regen the other suits. In this testing scenario, with everything set up in it's favor, the amarrian suit fails. Ok, so a jump take a percentage of your stamina... not sure how many times I am going to have to say this. It is the absolute worst thing you could do as an amarr scout. The amarr scout is HORRIBLE at jumping, as it will burn through way more stamina, and ht amarrian suit is the slowest to regain percentages of it's stamina. Anyway, if you want to see who gets where faster, just look at the graph I posted in the other forum topic. No matter what situation you are in, the minmatar suit is better from a run/rest cover 2 cover scout, and it is not even close. No really, the minmatar suit DESTROYs the amarr suit in that capacity, oh and it doesn't have to waste a sh-tty bonus to do it either. GG CSM, once again you guys were involved with just f-cking horrible game balancing. Is it on purpose or is this CSM just that bad at balancing suggestion? Who in the hell marathons mid game? Also I didn't mention any suits specifically I just wanted the math. Our scout currently does. Why should he run directly towards and enemy position? At which point we can essentially do a Terminator 40K esque Homing Strike with heavies or assault troops, etc. From what I see of Aisha he treats his Gk.0 as though it already were and Ak.0 and makes use of what he supposes the bonus should allow him to do. As such he is often gone so long from the main force I forget he is there unit I rock up on the point, disgorge 2 angry Amarrian SoB, and watch as the remainder of our squad teleports in from the war barge. " ..- -.- --. I wish I remembered morse code so I wasn't typing random letters" - Malleus Malificorum
DEZKA DIABLO 0uter.Heaven 395	Posted - 2014.03.17 00:44:00 - [26] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: DEZKA DIABLO wrote: For 3 days all I see is you and soul posting all this crap and your both hardly scouts and neither of you have tried the suits or listen to what vet scouts say , you might suck in this suit but the rest of us won't lol! Lol what? Ok so I have to assume that english is you second or third language, so I will forgive the broken statements that you have been making the last few days. Actually I commend you on learning a non-native language. So, for 3+ days, acutally more like a month, I have been using solid FACTS to make a case. You have been using the force or whatever, suppling no sound reasoning, no mathematical data, no anything of any value to an adult conversation at all. Why should I take anything you say seriously at all? Also, I have been playing for like idk 9-10 months, not as long as some, but still more than long enough to know dust inside and out. I also have 2 scout BPO suits that are used in regular rotation. I also almost always do pretty awesome in the scout suit because I use it as a scout suit, not an assault suit. You know what.... Screw that, I am not going to talk to you like I have ANYTHING to prove, because I do not. I have proven time and again, crunched numbers, used rational argument, made charts and graphs all detailing how the amarr scout is lol. You have done jack-sh-t except come on the forums in your broken english. STFU. A Lamborghini is just a car in the hands of some and a actual lamborghini in the hands of someone that really knows how to drive! An engrish is my first language I just don't have enought respect for you to have the patience to type things properly, I have big thumbs and a little phone and I could care less about correcting myself because I'm sure you kno what I mean if I take a shortcut, but it cracks me up when dbags on the forms pretend their English teachers, I could care less if things are not proper cuz this is a VIDEOGAME! Dead trigger master , an ya I do that ISH ON PURPOSE!
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 13422	Posted - 2014.03.17 01:01:00 - [27] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Our scout currently does. Why should he run directly towards and enemy position? From what I see of Aisha he treats his Gk.0 as though it already were and Ak.0 and makes use of what he supposes the bonus should allow him to do. As such he is often gone so long from the main force I forget he is there unit I rock up on the point, disgorge 2 angry Amarrian SoB, and watch as the remainder of our squad teleports in from the war barge. Is not the Amarr bonus designed to allow use such marathon runs? If not what is the purpose? We cannot jump more, melee more, we sprint at the lowest speed. So IWS if marathon runs are not the purpose of our scouts bonus then what is? "The best scout will enable their team to win by not getting caught by the enemy." It just unfortunate people are too used to the idea that scouts are treated in the conventional role, the reason why we got heavies with medium weapons and killer logis as a problem because the option is not only enabled but current balancing nearly encourages it as its the best function. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
DEZKA DIABLO 0uter.Heaven 396	Posted - 2014.03.17 01:45:00 - [28] - Quote DEZKA DIABLO wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: DEZKA DIABLO wrote: For 3 days all I see is you and soul posting all this crap and your both hardly scouts and neither of you have tried the suits or listen to what vet scouts say , you might suck in this suit but the rest of us won't lol! Lol what? Ok so I have to assume that english is you second or third language, so I will forgive the broken statements that you have been making the last few days. Actually I commend you on learning a non-native language. So, for 3+ days, acutally more like a month, I have been using solid FACTS to make a case. You have been using the force or whatever, suppling no sound reasoning, no mathematical data, no anything of any value to an adult conversation at all. Why should I take anything you say seriously at all? Also, I have been playing for like idk 9-10 months, not as long as some, but still more than long enough to know dust inside and out. I also have 2 scout BPO suits that are used in regular rotation. I also almost always do pretty awesome in the scout suit because I use it as a scout suit, not an assault suit. You know what.... Screw that, I am not going to talk to you like I have ANYTHING to prove, because I do not. I have proven time and again, crunched numbers, used rational argument, made charts and graphs all detailing how the amarr scout is lol. You have done jack-sh-t except come on the forums in your broken english. STFU. A Lamborghini is just a car in the hands of some and a actual lamborghini in the hands of someone that really knows how to drive! An engrish is my first language I just don't have enought respect for you to have the patience to type things properly, I have big thumbs and a little phone and I could care less about correcting myself because I'm sure you kno what I mean if I take a shortcut, but it cracks me up when dbags on the forms pretend their English teachers, I could care less if things are not proper cuz this is a VIDEOGAME! Just thought I should bump your pathetic attempt at a dis, for more people to laugh, nice try=ƒæÄ Dead trigger master , an ya I do that ISH ON PURPOSE!
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 572	Posted - 2014.03.17 02:43:00 - [29] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: True Adamance wrote: Our scout currently does. Why should he run directly towards and enemy position? From what I see of Aisha he treats his Gk.0 as though it already were and Ak.0 and makes use of what he supposes the bonus should allow him to do. As such he is often gone so long from the main force I forget he is there unit I rock up on the point, disgorge 2 angry Amarrian SoB, and watch as the remainder of our squad teleports in from the war barge. Is not the Amarr bonus designed to allow use such marathon runs? If not what is the purpose? We cannot jump more, melee more, we sprint at the lowest speed. So IWS if marathon runs are not the purpose of our scouts bonus then what is? "The best scout will enable their team to win by not getting caught by the enemy." It just unfortunate people are too used to the idea that scouts are treated in the conventional role, the reason why we got heavies with medium weapons and killer logis as a problem because the option is not only enabled but current balancing nearly encourages it as its the best function. That's not an answer, and you didn't address my response. DEZKA DIABLO wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: DEZKA DIABLO wrote: For 3 days all I see is you and soul posting all this crap and your both hardly scouts and neither of you have tried the suits or listen to what vet scouts say , you might suck in this suit but the rest of us won't lol! Lol what? Ok so I have to assume that english is you second or third language, so I will forgive the broken statements that you have been making the last few days. Actually I commend you on learning a non-native language. So, for 3+ days, acutally more like a month, I have been using solid FACTS to make a case. You have been using the force or whatever, suppling no sound reasoning, no mathematical data, no anything of any value to an adult conversation at all. Why should I take anything you say seriously at all? Also, I have been playing for like idk 9-10 months, not as long as some, but still more than long enough to know dust inside and out. I also have 2 scout BPO suits that are used in regular rotation. I also almost always do pretty awesome in the scout suit because I use it as a scout suit, not an assault suit. You know what.... Screw that, I am not going to talk to you like I have ANYTHING to prove, because I do not. I have proven time and again, crunched numbers, used rational argument, made charts and graphs all detailing how the amarr scout is lol. You have done jack-sh-t except come on the forums in your broken english. STFU. A Lamborghini is just a car in the hands of some and a actual lamborghini in the hands of someone that really knows how to drive! An engrish is my first language I just don't have enought respect for you to have the patience to type things properly, I have big thumbs and a little phone and I could care less about correcting myself because I'm sure you kno what I mean if I take a shortcut, but it cracks me up when dbags on the forms pretend their English teachers, I could care less if things are not proper cuz this is a VIDEOGAME! So your 12, great. I am arguing with a 12 year old..... While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Winsaucerer The Southern Legion League of Infamy 247	Posted - 2014.03.17 08:54:00 - [30] - Quote Magnus makes some intriguing points. Assuming the calculations are done correctly, this does not look good for the Amarr scout suit. It's a bonus that seems overall worthless. I had initially thought, "maybe it will be good for quickly moving between distant points, where other suits would have to start sprinting". But if Magnus is right, that won't be it. I have not, however, checked the calculations. Under what conditions will the Amarr suit's stamina bonus give it an advantage over every other suit? Also Magnus, can you give some more details on how you calculated marathon run time please?

Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 747	Posted - 2014.03.17 09:09:00 - [31] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Now of course large differences in stamina and recovery do make appreciable differences, this can be seen when going from a heavy suit to a scout suit (aside from the raw speed difference.) The question is though, among suits of the same class, what difference does it actually make?? So to illustrate what kind of differences stamina makes for suits, I figured I could throw a few pictures at you guys. Here is the stamina levels of our scout with various amounts of cardiac mods on them: Stamina Stamina Recovery Wow looks like that bonus makes a pretty big difference doesn't it? Here is the difference those bars actually make: Clicky Why choose a marathon run? Well, it is the most demanding activity that you could do constantly involving both stamina and recovery. As both jumping and melee involve percentages of you stamina, rather than amounts, there is no reason to involve those activities. Believe me when I say there is no fairer way to compare stamina and recharge values as they apply in-game. In the end though, you be the judge. Is the bonus useful? Hmm I am still not convinced about that percentage rate for jumping according to the stats shown here it looks like a fixed rate (which in fact would make way more sense). Also if you slap a cardiac regulator on you can perform more jumps as without this would not be possible if jumping would cost a percentage of your stamina.... For me stamina is inedible useful stamina is one of the stats I always use, so for my play style stamina is worth more than hp, thats why I use crdiac regulator on nearly all fits instead of plates...
DozersMouse XIII Ultramarine Corp 186	Posted - 2014.03.17 09:12:00 - [32] - Quote stamina pool means more then regen (regarding bunny hopping) and those of us who actually play scout we know how important jumping is specifically jumping to get out of harms way or jumping over a railing to engage a target after you make this jump or two you still need stamina to sprint (amarr will have this) as a scout who in hell runs a straight line (marathon running) all the time? not me I jump strafe jump behind a box pop out kill and sprint to the next destination and repeat I put two complex greens on my gk.0 tonight and timed right I could jump infinite times Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
COVERT SUBTERFUGE PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 637	Posted - 2014.03.17 09:42:00 - [33] - Quote Wow, all these Amarr freaking out over their scout bonus. lol Proud Minmatar scout - Republic Merc 6/10 Immune to bitter/jaded vet syndrome Roll with the punches instead of QQing
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 580	Posted - 2014.03.19 22:51:00 - [34] - Quote DozersMouse XIII wrote: stamina pool means more then regen (regarding bunny hopping) and those of us who actually play scout we know how important jumping is specifically jumping to get out of harms way or jumping over a railing to engage a target after you make this jump or two you still need stamina to sprint (amarr will have this) as a scout who in hell runs a straight line (marathon running) all the time? not me I jump strafe jump behind a box pop out kill and sprint to the next destination and repeat I put two complex greens on my gk.0 tonight and timed right I could jump infinite times No, it doesn't. Stamina regen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stamina pool. The difference is absolutely insane how much more important one is than the other. I realize that you just repeated the two complex green argument from the other thread, so I will no regurgitate my entire response here. Needless to say, your "infinite times" observation is completely wrong. It the stamina regen that allows you to jump more often based upon timing between jumps, and it has absolutely nothing to do with stamina regen. Listen, the only reason why I used the "marathon running" example is because it is the very best scenario possible to show high-stamina advantages. Even in that scenario it fails, so of course it will fall flat on it's face outside of that. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 580	Posted - 2014.03.19 22:52:00 - [35] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Now of course large differences in stamina and recovery do make appreciable differences, this can be seen when going from a heavy suit to a scout suit (aside from the raw speed difference.) The question is though, among suits of the same class, what difference does it actually make?? So to illustrate what kind of differences stamina makes for suits, I figured I could throw a few pictures at you guys. Here is the stamina levels of our scout with various amounts of cardiac mods on them: Stamina Stamina Recovery Wow looks like that bonus makes a pretty big difference doesn't it? Here is the difference those bars actually make: Clicky Why choose a marathon run? Well, it is the most demanding activity that you could do constantly involving both stamina and recovery. As both jumping and melee involve percentages of you stamina, rather than amounts, there is no reason to involve those activities. Believe me when I say there is no fairer way to compare stamina and recharge values as they apply in-game. In the end though, you be the judge. Is the bonus useful? Hmm I am still not convinced about that percentage rate for jumping according to the stats shown here it looks like a fixed rate (which in fact would make way more sense). Also if you slap a cardiac regulator on you can perform more jumps as without this would not be possible if jumping would cost a percentage of your stamina.... For me stamina is incredible useful stamina is one of the stats I always use, so for my play style stamina is worth more than hp, that's why I use cardiac regulator on nearly all fits instead of plates... Actually you are partially right. It appears as though jumps have a more complicated forumla to derive the stamina used to include such factors as: Time since last jump Height of jump (based off of base speed) number of jumps While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 580	Posted - 2014.03.19 22:57:00 - [36] - Quote Winsaucerer wrote: Magnus makes some intriguing points. Assuming the calculations are done correctly, this does not look good for the Amarr scout suit. It's a bonus that seems overall worthless. I had initially thought, "maybe it will be good for quickly moving between distant points, where other suits would have to start sprinting". But if Magnus is right, that won't be it. I have not, however, checked the calculations. Under what conditions will the Amarr suit's stamina bonus give it an advantage over every other suit? Also Magnus, can you give some more details on how you calculated marathon run time please? If you look at the very first graphs, you can see in more detail the calculation results. Basically I took the sprint speed, multiplied it by the stamina divided by 10 (this gives you seconds of run-time) then took the walk speed and multiplied that by the stamina pool divided by stamina regen. I did this incrementally (seconds) using a spreadsheet so as to obtain the suits posision relative to the others at every second. Then all I needed to do was plot all of the points to produce the graphs above. The bar graphs though I just picked three specific points in time (30, 60, 120 seconds) because another forum goer suggested it. EDIT: Oh my bad, I have referenced graphs from another thread I posted. Well you can at least see how I got the bar charts from my explanations here. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2758	Posted - 2014.03.19 22:57:00 - [37] - Quote I feel like most people who complain(most) have never ran a Proto Gallente scout, or maybe even a cardio mod. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 585	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:02:00 - [38] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: I feel like most people who complain(most) have never ran a Proto Gallente scout, or maybe even a cardio mod. You know what is funny about that? I feel like most people who say what you did have absolutely no idea how stamina/stamina regen/suit performance actually intermingle, and that those people have absolutely no way to try and prove their points. These people rely on name calling and calls to authority (lol) to rest their arguments on, rather than using data that they are: 1) to lazy/stupid to collect or 2) sure would prove them wrong It is funny, because I can think of an american political party that acts in exactly the same way. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2759	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:13:00 - [39] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: I feel like most people who complain(most) have never ran a Proto Gallente scout, or maybe even a cardio mod. You know what is funny about that? I feel like most people who say what you did have absolutely no idea how stamina/stamina regen/suit performance actually intermingle, and that those people have absolutely no way to try and prove their points. These people rely on name calling and calls to authority (lol) to rest their arguments on, rather than using data that they are: 1) to lazy/stupid to collect or 2) sure would prove them wrong It is funny, because I can think of an american political party that acts in exactly the same way. Doesn't change the fact that people who haven't ran a GalScout don't know how important a Cardio mod is. 300 stamina with skills is a lot, and 1 complex mod brigs it up to 600. You can pretty much run forever with that. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 1371	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:17:00 - [40] - Quote it's my favorite bonus to a suit. personally.

Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 587	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:21:00 - [41] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: I feel like most people who complain(most) have never ran a Proto Gallente scout, or maybe even a cardio mod. You know what is funny about that? I feel like most people who say what you did have absolutely no idea how stamina/stamina regen/suit performance actually intermingle, and that those people have absolutely no way to try and prove their points. These people rely on name calling and calls to authority (lol) to rest their arguments on, rather than using data that they are: 1) to lazy/stupid to collect or 2) sure would prove them wrong It is funny, because I can think of an american political party that acts in exactly the same way. Doesn't change the fact that people who haven't ran a GalScout don't know how important a Cardio mod is. 300 stamina with skills is a lot, and 1 complex mod brigs it up to 600. You can pretty much run forever with that. Also like that political party, you are confused about what the term "fact" actually means: google wrote: fact fakt/Submit noun 1. a thing that is indisputably the case. "she lacks political experienceGÇöa fact that becomes clear when she appears in public" You realize that there is another type of scout in-game currently right? Aside from that, you also realize that one of the suits that benefited the most from green bottles was the pre-1.8-commando right? No of course you don't because only your experience, and the people who agree with you, are relevant in your little mind. Stop living in your own little bubble of a world were real facts don't matter. Also, running forever is worthless if you still get somewhere last, still jump the least, still strafe the slowest, and it has NO OTHER BENEFIT to you. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 587	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:25:00 - [42] - Quote low genius wrote: it's my favorite bonus to a suit. personally. I am really not trying to be insulting here, seriously, but I have a question. Why is it that I only ever see non-amarr avatars stating this? While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 49	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:31:00 - [43] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Now of course large differences in stamina and recovery do make appreciable differences, this can be seen when going from a heavy suit to a scout suit (aside from the raw speed difference.) The question is though, among suits of the same class, what difference does it actually make?? So to illustrate what kind of differences stamina makes for suits, I figured I could throw a few pictures at you guys. Here is the stamina levels of our scout with various amounts of cardiac mods on them: Stamina Stamina Recovery Wow looks like that bonus makes a pretty big difference doesn't it? Here is the difference those bars actually make: Clicky Why choose a marathon run? Well, it is the most demanding activity that you could do constantly involving both stamina and recovery. As both jumping and melee involve percentages of you stamina, rather than amounts, there is no reason to involve those activities. Believe me when I say there is no fairer way to compare stamina and recharge values as they apply in-game. In the end though, you be the judge. Is the bonus useful? At std and adv the stamina bonus is great. But of course you're an f'ing moron and dont compare all scout suits equally, instead you want to compare Amarr to a suit whose niche is dampening and complain only at a prototype level. At std and adv the Gal and Amarr trade a Complex Damp or a std card cat. This means both are even but Gal gains passive armor rep and more eWar than Amarr who still has more stamina/recovery and eHP. Are the tradeoffs fair, yes. One suit is trying to copy another niches and in comparison it does better. Now what everyone complains about is at Proto, the Gal can afford to use a complex card cat while the Amarr is still forced to use a complex damp in order to stay off the radar. So it gives the Gal suit an advantage, but it is only because you want your Amarr suit to be the Gal and you're an idiot and can't see that Amarr can adapt to many builds because of its layout and the Cal and Min suits cannot. Cal and Min have 2 lows, they cannot possibly stay off the radar and have a slot left for a card, Kin, armor rep, high eHP etc... They. Are simply forced into doing the best they can, which means Cal can run a nice shield tank, a eWar specialist, or a hybrid of them both. This is not to day the Cal doesnt excel as a scout but it can no way compare to the Gal or Amarr in this crazy game you're complaining about. With 2 lows its impossible to play the stealth game and be as effective with movement, cloaks will help but Cal so not stack up. So while the Cal can in no way stack upto another classes niche, no one is complaining about what niche the Cal has and it's seemingly great potential to be a speed eWar specialist... Scan, chase, hunt. The Min at least has 3-3, it has slightly more flexibility but again if they are to be stealth it means they will either lack a card for stamina or a kin for speed, builds with Gal and Amarr can excel at. If you haven't heard the Min adv suit has a difficult time at adv level equipping anything due to its PG which hurts greatly. I'm not saying that a CR isnt a great weapon, it just shouldn't be the only weapon primary available to a class...not to mention NK suck atm, poor hit detection, no PG reduction. So the bonus is NK which is a Cal weapon, strange, and while a hacking bonus is also a nice niche it is in no way as good as a stamina bonus. The Min bonus, its a huge niche. Hacking bonus is great for some but it's no way a strong bonus. In fact Amarr could equip 2 dampeners and a code breaker and it wouldn't be on par but still does a good job in this role, especially when Min have 3-2 layout at adv suits. Again, the Min scout not only forces you to NK it also dictates which weapon you pair them with because of the PG totals at adv. No one complains about the Min bonus, it's seems like a joke, it's just meant for a few people to run around like idiots and have fun, so again no1 is complaining about getting NK'd or how someone is hacking too fast. So can the Amarr suit stack up with the Gal, it sure can. Does it surpass the Gal, at advice its pretty damn close but at prototype is just can't stack up well enough. Which is fine, because like i said you're trying to force Amarr to be something another class is getting a bonus for. It still does a great job at a stealth type role, far far better than the a Cal or Min can do. Can the Amarr play the scanning game, no but neither can the other 2 scouts. Can it play the hacking game, yes.. Can it play a NK game, no but who the hell wants to do that when a CQC does a better job when you can get a jump on high eHP targets. Is tossing an RE better than NK, probably is. Stamina plus stamina regen is a great racial bonus, even at 5%. Would a 7% boost per level mean that the Amarr and Gal at prototype share the same stats, yes but then it would blow the other two suits away. It's okay to have a suit thst is capable of playing a variety of roles very well and not excelling at other scout's niches. Saying that you need to run somewhere and the Amarr doesnt perform is bullshit. If its a long distance you get LAV but between one point to another their layout is ideal. And at adv their suits out perform their counterparts which is saying a lot to how good their bonus is for their adaptive role. I know you're forced to go into Amarr but it's not a bad choice, especially at scout. You get all the benefits and none of the drawback due to the slot layout, while you do perfectly fine keeping up with the jones' and being able to adapt to fit any style of battle.
Bojo The Mighty L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 3533	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:34:00 - [44] - Quote Pretty valuable IMO. Even fitting a basic cardiac on a scout goes a long way. 68 inches above sea level...
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2759	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:35:00 - [45] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: I feel like most people who complain(most) have never ran a Proto Gallente scout, or maybe even a cardio mod. You know what is funny about that? I feel like most people who say what you did have absolutely no idea how stamina/stamina regen/suit performance actually intermingle, and that those people have absolutely no way to try and prove their points. These people rely on name calling and calls to authority (lol) to rest their arguments on, rather than using data that they are: 1) to lazy/stupid to collect or 2) sure would prove them wrong It is funny, because I can think of an american political party that acts in exactly the same way. Doesn't change the fact that people who haven't ran a GalScout don't know how important a Cardio mod is. 300 stamina with skills is a lot, and 1 complex mod brigs it up to 600. You can pretty much run forever with that. Also like that political party, you are confused about what the term "fact" actually means: google wrote: fact fakt/Submit noun 1. a thing that is indisputably the case. "she lacks political experienceGÇöa fact that becomes clear when she appears in public" You realize that there is another type of scout in-game currently right? Aside from that, you also realize that one of the suits that benefited the most from green bottles was the pre-1.8-commando right? No of course you don't because only your experience, and the people who agree with you, are relevant in your little mind. Stop living in your own little bubble of a world were real facts don't matter. Also, running forever is worthless if you still get somewhere last, still jump the least, still strafe the slowest, and it has NO OTHER BENEFIT to you. For someone trying to make a point based on facts, you sure do throw out a lot of insults. You can talk about commandos, you can say the bonus is crappy compared to the others, but it doesn't change the fact that giving it anything higher then say a 6 percent bonus per level would break the suit. You wanna talk fitting bonuses for the suit? Fine, by all means talk about any other bonus you like. But don't pretend you can max the bonus higher and not break the suit. It's the same reason Scout can not go any faster, it breaks the balance. So maybe don't resort to name calling. And just try the suit first, or better yet, something else. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 49	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:35:00 - [46] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: low genius wrote: it's my favorite bonus to a suit. personally. I am really not trying to be insulting here, seriously, but I have a question. Why is it that I only ever see non-amarr avatars stating this? They are just trying to lobby for the best scout. It's okay, that's playing the game. Some have elite positions in the community and try to use it to gain more, which is fine but there are so many more serious issues that need to be addressed.
Bojo The Mighty L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 3535	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:40:00 - [47] - Quote Cotsy8 wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: low genius wrote: it's my favorite bonus to a suit. personally. I am really not trying to be insulting here, seriously, but I have a question. Why is it that I only ever see non-amarr avatars stating this? They are just trying to lobby for the best scout. It's okay, that's playing the game. Some have elite positions in the community and try to use it to gain more, which is fine but there are so many more serious issues that need to be addressed. Wow the conspiracies just don't end It's almost as if Forum Avatar = Faction You Currently Support 68 inches above sea level...
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8420	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:44:00 - [48] - Quote Cotsy8 wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: low genius wrote: it's my favorite bonus to a suit. personally. I am really not trying to be insulting here, seriously, but I have a question. Why is it that I only ever see non-amarr avatars stating this? They are just trying to lobby for the best scout. It's okay, that's playing the game. Some have elite positions in the community and try to use it to gain more, which is fine but there are so many more serious issues that need to be addressed. Its not about having the best scout....its about having a scout, one that functions on par with its counter parts, not another combat unit. " ..- -.- --. I wish I remembered morse code so I wasn't typing random letters" - Malleus Malificorum
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 49	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:51:00 - [49] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Cotsy8 wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: low genius wrote: it's my favorite bonus to a suit. personally. I am really not trying to be insulting here, seriously, but I have a question. Why is it that I only ever see non-amarr avatars stating this? They are just trying to lobby for the best scout. It's okay, that's playing the game. Some have elite positions in the community and try to use it to gain more, which is fine but there are so many more serious issues that need to be addressed. Wow the conspiracies just don't end It's almost as if Forum Avatar = Faction You Currently Support If you are forced to pick Amarr, because according the True they are, then they just want to lobby for the best suit possible. Most others want to lobby for balanced but that's not what these thread spammers want. They see their suit as sub par at the Gal niche at prototype and want a better suit. There's nothing wrong with lobbying, it's just whether or not their delusions are acted upon by CCP. I've already made my suggestions long ago, the bonus should be 7% not 5%. At 7% it is on par with Gal while still requiring the Min to be fixed. There's nothing wrong with a Cal but i would like to see its slots be 3-3 and not 4-2. I suggested 5% counter hacking bonus or a 5% climbing ladder bonus + less fall damage to be added to their current bonus. These are not very important matters but do contain a niche as a saboteur or a silent killer capable of getting above you and taking you out. Even a 5% bonus to seeing equipment would make their saboteur role more prominent but no! these assholes in their many threads want ridiculous bonuses which not only make the Amarr scout the best scout but best suit in the game. I'm trying to be as objective as I can with my additional bonus suggestions but so far all the feedback I receive is give Amarr 10% stamina and stamina regen or give them 5% scan radius too. You'll see 1.8 will role around and those who got forced into Amarr will be thankful they weren't forced into Min scouts or any assault class.
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 49	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:56:00 - [50] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Cotsy8 wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: low genius wrote: it's my favorite bonus to a suit. personally. I am really not trying to be insulting here, seriously, but I have a question. Why is it that I only ever see non-amarr avatars stating this? They are just trying to lobby for the best scout. It's okay, that's playing the game. Some have elite positions in the community and try to use it to gain more, which is fine but there are so many more serious issues that need to be addressed. Its not about having the best scout....its about having a scout, one that functions on par with its counter parts, not another combat unit. Show me how you think Min and Cal at adv and prototype stack up with your delusions of a stealth scout. Show me how they can be a better stealth scout then the Amarr can at adv and Proto. Now I've already said at adv the gal and Amarr are very similar (balanced) except theres a small matter of reps but it's not significant in showing their differences, marginal at best. Yes at Proto when playing the stealth role a Gal can afford a complex cardiac while the Amarth is forced to use a second Dampener... But again thats the niche for a Gal (stealth) while the Amarr nice seems to be adaptability.... Which by the way is a much better bonus than the Min and even the eWar specialist Cal scout can't play the stealth game, so how is the Amarr such a broken, horrible suit... I really do not know. And please if you want to run long distances, let me get a militia fatty suit then call a LAV and beat you to it.

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8420	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:59:00 - [51] - Quote Cotsy8 wrote: Bojo The Mighty wrote: Cotsy8 wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: low genius wrote: it's my favorite bonus to a suit. personally. I am really not trying to be insulting here, seriously, but I have a question. Why is it that I only ever see non-amarr avatars stating this? They are just trying to lobby for the best scout. It's okay, that's playing the game. Some have elite positions in the community and try to use it to gain more, which is fine but there are so many more serious issues that need to be addressed. Wow the conspiracies just don't end It's almost as if Forum Avatar = Faction You Currently Support If you are forced to pick Amarr, because according the True they are, then they just want to lobby for the best suit possible. Most others want to lobby for balanced but that's not what these thread spammers want. They see their suit as sub par at the Gal niche at prototype and want a better suit. There's nothing wrong with lobbying, it's just whether or not their delusions are acted upon by CCP. I've already made my suggestions long ago, the bonus should be 7% not 5%. At 7% it is on par with Gal while still requiring the Min to be fixed. There's nothing wrong with a Cal but i would like to see its slots be 3-3 and not 4-2. I suggested 5% counter hacking bonus or a 5% climbing ladder bonus + less fall damage to be added to their current bonus. These are not very important matters but do contain a niche as a saboteur or a silent killer capable of getting above you and taking you out. Even a 5% bonus to seeing equipment would make their saboteur role more prominent but no! these assholes in their many threads want ridiculous bonuses which not only make the Amarr scout the best scout but best suit in the game. I'm trying to be as objective as I can with my additional bonus suggestions but so far all the feedback I receive is give Amarr 10% stamina and stamina regen or give them 5% scan radius too. You'll see 1.8 will role around and those who got forced into Amarr will be thankful they weren't forced into Min scouts or any assault class. Realise that Magnus only joined PCLAS yesterday and had been campaigning for weeks before hand. Regardless of whether or not I support PIE Inc in their operation in FW I am primarily concerned with balance, currently trying to establish dialogue with other AVers and HAVers who agree and want to see a change, and currently with the information provided by both sides of the argument I am inclined to agree with Magnus who thus far has provided evidence to back up his claims. Until he is proven wrong I cannot argue against his statements which all seem logically sound and are backed up with the numbers to prove his point. " ..- -.- --. I wish I remembered morse code so I wasn't typing random letters" - Malleus Malificorum
Bojo The Mighty L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 3551	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:59:00 - [52] - Quote I'm trying to instigate better arguments because everything I have seen was all about modules. Well by that case we need to nerf the Caldari precision to 4%, nerf Minmatar Nova Knife to 1%, and buff Amarr to 20% level by that method. And then you've got the Gallente Scout sitting pretty with a minute range nerf. All scouts have a 5% Level bonus therefore every specific scout has a 5% edge to the level in their area of expertise. One scout can not gain over a 5% advantage per level over another, it's that simple. I understand if it seems underwhelming but no one has a larger advantage gain over the other. However CCP screwed up with Minmatar Scouts having 60 regen (s) 68 inches above sea level...
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 594	Posted - 2014.03.20 00:43:00 - [53] - Quote Cotsy8 wrote: At std and adv the stamina bonus is great. But of course you're an f'ing moron and dont compare all scout suits equally, instead you want to compare Amarr to a suit whose niche is dampening and complain only at a prototype level. At std and adv the Gal and Amarr trade a Complex Damp or a std card cat. This means both are even but Gal gains passive armor rep and more eWar than Amarr who still has more stamina/recovery and eHP. Are the tradeoffs fair, yes. One suit is trying to copy another niches and in comparison it does better. Now what everyone complains about is at Proto, the Gal can afford to use a complex card cat while the Amarr is still forced to use a complex damp in order to stay off the radar. So it gives the Gal suit an advantage, but it is only because you want your Amarr suit to be the Gal and you're an idiot and can't see that Amarr can adapt to many builds because of its layout and the Cal and Min suits cannot. Dude, use numbers, math something that has some type of credible arguing point, otherwise your just another in a long line of mouthbreathers that just foam at the mouth for no good reason. I used math, I even made incredibly easy to read charts, I showed you how the bonus effects the suits, and I showed you the insanely small difference between the amarr suit pre-bonus and post-bonus. Under ideal conditions for stamina boosts no less. Also, you make zero sense, the bonus applies to skill level, not suit level. @ skill lvl 5, the standard gal suit will have the same bonus as the proto, same with the amarr. Are you honestly tryint to say that the argument that the gallente (and the rest of the scouts) all get the equivelent of 1 free proto module versus the amarrian 2/3rds of a militia module is somehow unfair? Really? Wanna back that up with ... i don't know.... anything? Quote: Cal and Min have 2 lows, they cannot possibly stay off the radar and have a slot left for a card, Kin, armor rep, high eHP etc... They. Are simply forced into doing the best they can, which means Cal can run a nice shield tank, a eWar specialist, or a hybrid of them both. This is not to day the Cal doesnt excel as a scout but it can no way compare to the Gal or Amarr in this crazy game you're complaining about. With 2 lows its impossible to play the stealth game and be as effective with movement, cloaks will help but Cal so not stack up. So while the Cal can in no way stack upto another classes niche, no one is complaining about what niche the Cal has and it's seemingly great potential to be a speed eWar specialist... Scan, chase, hunt. So after trying to decifer this wall of unorganized thought, I came to the conclusion that you are complaining about an imbalance between high-slots and low-slots. Ok so tell me how that has anything to do with the balance between scout suits, which should be completely unrelated? (Why you ask?. Lets say that CCP fixes the high/low slot balance, no if they prescribed to your method of doing things, they have to rebalance all of the suits. That is ******. Quote:** The Min at least has 3-3, it has slightly more flexibility but again if they are to be stealth it means they will either lack a card for stamina or a kin for speed, builds with Gal and Amarr can excel at. If you haven't heard the Min adv suit has a difficult time at adv level equipping anything due to its PG which hurts greatly. I'm not saying that a CR isnt a great weapon, it just shouldn't be the only weapon primary available to a class...not to mention NK suck atm, poor hit detection, no PG reduction. So the bonus is NK which is a Cal weapon, strange, and while a hacking bonus is also a nice niche it is in no way as good as a stamina bonus. The Min bonus, its a huge niche. Hacking bonus is great for some but it's no way a strong bonus. In fact Amarr could equip 2 dampeners and a code breaker and it wouldn't be on par but still does a good job in this role, especially when Min have 3-2 layout at adv suits. Again, the Min scout not only forces you to NK it also dictates which weapon you pair them with because of the PG totals at adv. No one complains about the Min bonus, it's seems like a joke, it's just meant for a few people to run around like idiots and have fun, so again no1 is complaining about getting NK'd or how someone is hacking too fast. See I provided proof for my claims, I gave charts and whatnot about how the current amarrian bonus is completely worthless. You have do no such thing other than stomp your feet and provide poor reasoning. You are complaining about slot balance even though it doesn't belong in a suit balance discussion thread. You are also trying to correlate the hacking bonus on merit to the stamina bonus. I have also made charts that show the INCREDIBLE difference the minmatar bonus makes, and the ALMOST IMPERCEPTIBLE difference the stamina bonus makes. The POWER of the hacking bonus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the power of the stamina bonus. That bit is done, it has been proven, it hasn't been refuted, it is unlikely to be refuted. Leave it alone. No one complains about the min scout bonus because it is worth idk... 8 or so complex modules. +25% hacking, +5% hacking, +25% NK damage, 2Xstamina recovery.... yeah I think they don't have a damn thing to complain about. Alright so I am going to have to shorten your post because quote limits, but I will touch upon the most important bits. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 595	Posted - 2014.03.20 00:55:00 - [54] - Quote costy8 wrote: So can the Amarr suit stack up with the Gal, it sure can. Does it surpass the Gal, at advice its pretty damn close but at prototype is just can't stack up well enough. Which is fine, because like i said you're trying to force Amarr to be something another class is getting a bonus for. It still does a great job at a stealth type role, far far better than the a Cal or Min can do. Can the Amarr play the scanning game, no but neither can the other 2 scouts. Can it play the hacking game, yes.. Can it play a NK game, no but who the hell wants to do that when a CQC does a better job when you can get a jump on high eHP targets. Is tossing an RE better than NK, probably is. No, the amarr suit can not stack up with the gallente, and I believe Aisha made a thread about that. Try, just try to show me one fit that the amarr suit can have that the gallente cannot outperform it in... just try. I can show you at least 2 that the gallente would crush the amarrian one in. No, I want the amarr scout to be good at something... anything. It has NO ROLE right now, just a B.S. signle bonus, that has been split into two bonuses and even at that, not even worth on militia module. Oh while being slower than an assault suit, and just gerenally crappier than all of the rest of the suits. No, the amarr suit cannot compete in hacking... ever. It can not come close to the minmatar suit, as none of the others can. Hey look, a role that the minmatar is best at. NK useless? The NV will do more damage to sentinels post 1.8 than an RE will. Don't believe me... check it out, proof: 20021.151.2521.075=1236 dmg (yep, thats a nova knife when charged for 0.8s post-cloak) 15000.75=1125 (thats the dmg a RE will do post 1.8 to a setninel) Oh, also you will never run out of ammo for the NK and you will be able to follow up attack with the NK. Quote: Stamina plus stamina regen is a great racial bonus, even at 5%. Would a 7% boost per level mean that the Amarr and Gal at prototype share the same stats, yes but then it would blow the other two suits away. It's okay to have a suit thst is capable of playing a variety of roles very well and not excelling at other scout's niches. No it really isn't. See you saying "it is great even at 5%" is 100% completely rebuked by my extensive charts and maths. It is not even a contest, you are 100% wrong. I seriously can not believe you are trying to argue that making the amarr bonus equivelent to the same lvl module as ONE (yes just one) of the gallente bonuses would be overpowered. I mean seriously, is that what you are saying? Really? Quote: Saying that you need to run somewhere and the Amarr doesnt perform is bullshit. If its a long distance you get LAV but between one point to another their layout is ideal. And at adv their suits out perform their counterparts which is saying a lot to how good their bonus is for their adaptive role. I know you're forced to go into Amarr but it's not a bad choice, especially at scout. You get all the benefits and none of the drawback due to the slot layout, while you do perfectly fine keeping up with the jones' and being able to adapt to fit any style of battle. No it isn't bullshit. You clamining it is bullshit is bullshit. Dude just proove my numbers wrong. Come up with some type of chart, or graph, or math, or some type.. any type of tangible evidence of what you claim.... anything please for the love of god. LoL about all the std and adv stuff you claim... dude I am just done dealing with the just overwhelming amount of ignorance coming out of your face. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 596	Posted - 2014.03.20 01:04:00 - [55] - Quote Cotsy8 wrote: True Adamance wrote: Cotsy8 wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: low genius wrote: it's my favorite bonus to a suit. personally. I am really not trying to be insulting here, seriously, but I have a question. Why is it that I only ever see non-amarr avatars stating this? They are just trying to lobby for the best scout. It's okay, that's playing the game. Some have elite positions in the community and try to use it to gain more, which is fine but there are so many more serious issues that need to be addressed. Its not about having the best scout....its about having a scout, one that functions on par with its counter parts, not another combat unit. Show me how you think Min and Cal at adv and prototype stack up with your delusions of a stealth scout. Show me how they can be a better stealth scout then the Amarr can at adv and Proto. Now I've already said at adv the gal and Amarr are very similar (balanced) except theres a small matter of reps but it's not significant in showing their differences, marginal at best. Yes at Proto when playing the stealth role a Gal can afford a complex cardiac while the Amarth is forced to use a second Dampener... But again thats the niche for a Gal (stealth) while the Amarr nice seems to be adaptability.... Which by the way is a much better bonus than the Min and even the eWar specialist Cal scout can't play the stealth game, so how is the Amarr such a broken, horrible suit... I really do not know. And please if you want to run long distances, let me get a militia fatty suit then call a LAV and beat you to it. Stop acting like you have a point, or like you have proven anything because you haven't. You are 100% wrong, deal with it. Here let me provide you with some more graphs that you must have ignored. Suit Dampening Profile Dampening (lower is better) You know what that shows? The effectiveness at dampening. So lets say I wanted to be better dampening than the minmatar suit, I would have to sacrifice every low on the amarr to do so, and then the minnie suit would still: Be faster strafe more stamina regen faster hack faster more damage NKs cover EVERY DISTANCE IMAGINABLE FASTER jump more often and have more eHP... lol Still have a profile of under 16 (less than 1 more than the amarr) Or how about the caldari? Faster strafing jumping faster point a to point b jmp more often scan range hugely superior scan precision hugely superior While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 5912	Posted - 2014.03.20 01:43:00 - [56] - Quote At first I thought this was going to be another temper tantrum about Amarr Scouts, but it appears that I have been presented a well thought out and constructive post. Congrats. As a response to the OP, I find that speed is greater than stamina simply because it will allow you to cover a larger area in a shorter time span. I don't think sacrificing speed is a good idea on a Light Frame simply because it hampers it's flanking abilities, which is the Light Frame's niche. Some could argue that you might want more Stamina if your using melee attacks on people, but that's only true to an extent. Speed is also a very important factor, because you have to be able to get within range to actually hit the target; without speed your basically a turtle trying to outmaneuver a cheetah. Speed GëÑ Stamina AV > HAV > INF > AV \| Not: HAV > AV GëÑ INF [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 49	Posted - 2014.03.20 02:08:00 - [57] - Quote You refuse to acknowledge your ridiculous point that the Amarr should excel at which the Gal has a niche in. Yet you make no attempt to hold the Min and Cal to the same standard, as I have shown the Amare does a very good job at the stealth game compared to the Gal (could argue it is balanced at adv suit) and far exceeds that of the Min (especially in adv and even so at Proto) and Cal. Cal at adv and Proto would need to use both lows for dampeners, which I hope you can agree is a significant disadvantage. Min at advice would need to use both it lows, and at Proto would need to use 2/3 slot for dampeners. While this leaves one slot open it means the Min would lack stamina (ability to flank, stalk, close the gap, NK, flee) or speed (close the gap to NK or escape). Again, a significant disadvantage because it would lack one or the other. Sure, Min base speed is nice and cloaks will help but NK range is so small that speed and stamina are essential. The cal bonus fits with its role, no one complains about its niche role or its ability to adapt to other roles (it cannot). Min scouts are even a smaller niche with way more significant problems. PG concerns at adv suit, the one low slot to play with, the NK requiring very close range to hit and even then hit detection isn't great. Its difficult to have a class choose not only your weapon (its a sidearm and frankly why wouldn't you RE someone if you're that close) and provide a hacking bonus which isn't as useful as the other racial bonuses in its class, is hacking useful, can be extremely useful but it's not some essential bonus that makes the class more than a niche. If you choose not to use a NK because their are less effective than other weapons, it further diminishes the class' comparison to the other scouts. The min scout is a niche in a niche market, few take it seriously enough to bother to compare it to other scouts. Amarr, like Gal, have 2-4 providing the ability to have stealth. Stamina, speed, and ability to choose to replace one slot with what their racial bonus gives. In the case of the Gal they may choose to use a kin cat or armor to help their build while the Amarr may choose a Dampener or armor mods to help. There is very little difference at the advanced tier between these suits, but at prototype this is different. At Proto the Amarr suit, which doesn't have a niche in stealth can choose to use a second Dampener to play a stealth role. If a Gal scout chooses to use a cardiac and chooses a complex card, then the suit comparison favours the Gal. It's not like the Gal blows the Amarr out of the water but there is a difference now thst their major difference and advantages has been made up by using a complex cardiac on a Gal prototype suit. This is not to say that the Amare is built for stealth, it's not to say the Amarr suit can't be stealthy. You are simply trying to compare one suit to another suits niche and come to a conclusion that is over hyped and dishonest. A stamina bonus is a good racial bonus, a 2-4 layout is optimal and the Amarr suit is so versatile. It does a better job at the other niches than other scouts.. It does a good job at the stealth game you seem to eagerly to compare it to the gal. It might not get to an objective before a LAV but no scout does. Stamina is essential part of a scout movement so complaining daily that stamina sucks is ridiculous.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8441	Posted - 2014.03.20 02:13:00 - [58] - Quote Atiim wrote: At first I thought this was going to be another temper tantrum about Amarr Scouts, but it appears that I have been presented a well thought out and constructive post. Congrats. As a response to the OP, I find that speed is greater than stamina simply because it will allow you to cover a larger area in a shorter time span. I don't think sacrificing speed is a good idea on a Light Frame simply because it hampers it's flanking abilities, which is the Light Frame's niche. Some could argue that you might want more Stamina if your using melee attacks on people, but that's only true to an extent. Speed is also a very important factor, because you have to be able to get within range to actually hit the target; without speed your basically a turtle trying to outmaneuver a cheetah. Speed GëÑ Stamina TY Atiim for looking at this argument and making an informed decision....frankly speaking I dont care about the Amarr scout in the slightest...I'm arguing because no evidence is being used to support the opposing position. "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Scout Registry Nos Nothi 1639	Posted - 2014.03.20 02:22:00 - [59] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: GG CSM, once again you guys were involved with just f-cking horrible game balancing. Is it on purpose or is this CSM just that bad at balancing suggestion? Friendly Reminder: IWS went to bat for Scouts.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 5915	Posted - 2014.03.20 02:25:00 - [60] - Quote True Adamance wrote: TY Atiim for looking at this argument and making an informed decision....frankly speaking I dont care about the Amarr scout in the slightest...I'm arguing because no evidence is being used to support the opposing position. There has been evidence presented, but it's anecdotal evidence. I think the main problem is the fact that many of the people who are planning on using the Amarr Scouts are being melodramatic and non-constructive; while demanding everything under the Sun. This prevents CCP from collecting feedback, and it causes the constructive ideas and posts to be buried. Sadly because of this the Amarr Scouts are literally f***ed, as 1.8 is already code and content locked. AV > HAV > INF > AV \| Not: HAV > AV GëÑ INF [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND

Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 5915	Posted - 2014.03.20 02:26:00 - [61] - Quote Scout Registry wrote: Friendly Reminder: IWS went to bat for Scouts. But, he did say no to quid pro quo. AV > HAV > INF > AV \| Not: HAV > AV GëÑ INF [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3205	Posted - 2014.03.20 02:27:00 - [62] - Quote With the Amarr scout I envision being able to run from home point to enemy home point while cloaked If not I'll be screaming for a respec ML Director Eve Toon - Raylan Scott Level 3 Forum Warrior
Roy Ventus Axis of Chaos 1423	Posted - 2014.03.20 02:45:00 - [63] - Quote OP, it's really hard to take you serious, despite your math and graphs and actually proper argument, when you insult people who haven't even insulted you. I think I'm guilty of the same sometimes but still... But ignoring that... I believe the bonus is useful and not because it allows the Amarr to run longer than others but because the Amarr scout can tank while doing it. Maybe the Amarr scout would be better off being able to outrun their enemy through their stamina...but I honestly would rather see just how well they do at tanking in 1.8. That's my belief. "There once was a time when there wasn't a Roy Ventus and it wasn't much of a time at all." Roy Ventus
Matticus Monk Ordus Trismegistus 1445	Posted - 2014.03.20 03:10:00 - [64] - Quote Stamina is huge to me. I hate not having a cardiac regulator on my fits. For my particular situation what matters to me is down-time. Time spent regenerating stamina v.s. running. Within that 120 seconds of time covering distance (for example), how much time am I actually forced to walk v.s. run in each suit? What I want is minimal down-time per battle. I run all the time! To get places, to flank, to get from hiding to an objective to stop a hack, to evade someone about to spot me, to get to cover, etc... in fact the only time I'm not running is when I'm strafing or regenerating. What I'd like is the Amarr to excel at this - they should be better it than any other suit given the same number of cardiac regulators equipped. If not, that's bunk, but I can't really tell from your charts if that's gonna be the case. The min have better regen by far, but since this is really a problem of total stamina pool and regen time, really the best bet it seems like to me would be to gen up some down-time metric based on straight running or a mix of a certain number of jumps, this, in addition to your other charts may help folks really see the weakness. Double posting like a Kaiser.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 601	Posted - 2014.03.20 04:38:00 - [65] - Quote [quote=Cotsy8]You refuse to acknowledge your ridiculous point that the Amarr should excel at which the Gal has a niche in. Yet you make no attempt to hold the Min and Cal to the same standard, as I have shown the Amare does a very good job at the stealth game compared to the Gal (could argue it is balanced at adv suit) and far exceeds that of the Min (especially in adv and even so at Proto) and Cal. No I do not. I do not believe that teh amarr should be better than the gallente in either scan profile reduction or scran radius. I do believe that teh amarr scout should be equally better than the gallente in an equal amount of areas, but that is not presently the case, not by a long shot. Also, no , no you haven't shown anything to that effect. Actually I just posted a few charts to directly refute that assertion of yours. Quote: Cal at adv and Proto would need to use both lows for dampeners, which I hope you can agree is a significant disadvantage. Min at advice would need to use both it lows, and at Proto would need to use 2/3 slot for dampeners. While this leaves one slot open it means the Min would lack stamina (ability to flank, stalk, close the gap, NK, flee) or speed (close the gap to NK or escape). Again, a significant disadvantage because it would lack one or the other. Sure, Min base speed is nice and cloaks will help but NK range is so small that speed and stamina are essential. Just like how the amarr suit would be out of the same number of low slots, and now it is WAY worse than the gallente in every way. Once again, you are conflating argument about slot layout versus bonus, they ARE COMPLETELY SEPARATE DUMMY. Unless the minnie uncloaks idk... 191 meters away from it's target when wanting to NK them, it will be just fine. No, that's not really a disadvantage is it? Quote: The cal bonus fits with its role, no one complains about its niche role or its ability to adapt to other roles (it cannot). Min scouts are even a smaller niche with way more significant problems. PG concerns at adv suit, the one low slot to play with, the NK requiring very close range to hit and even then hit detection isn't great. Its difficult to have a class choose not only your weapon (its a sidearm and frankly why wouldn't you RE someone if you're that close) and provide a hacking bonus which isn't as useful as the other racial bonuses in its class, is hacking useful, can be extremely useful but it's not some essential bonus that makes the class more than a niche. If you choose not to use a NK because their are less effective than other weapons, it further diminishes the class' comparison to the other scouts. The min scout is a niche in a niche market, few take it seriously enough to bother to compare it to other scouts. Caldari does a tanky scout better than any other suit (shield w/ no speed penalty and quick recharge?? yes please). Sure gallente and amarr can get more HP, but then they move at assault speed and aren't really scout anymore are they? Caldari can do scan radius better (than anyone) they can do scan precision better than anyone. Min scout is the very best for stealth hacking/assasination. It can be far and away the fastest scout. It can get to any point on the map faster than any other scout. Hacking bonus >>>>>>>>>>>> stamina bonus, look at the charts. stamnia makes barely any difference AT ALL for the amarr suit. The minmatar suit will be insanely good come 1.8. Fastest, highest damage, fastest hacking, fastest to get point A to point B..... yeah it will be awesome. Quote: Amarr, like Gal, have 2-4 providing the ability to have stealth. Stamina, speed, and ability to choose to replace one slot with what their racial bonus gives. In the case of the Gal they may choose to use a kin cat or armor to help their build while the Amarr may choose a Dampener or armor mods to help. There is very little difference at the advanced tier between these suits, but at prototype this is different. At Proto the Amarr suit, which doesn't have a niche in stealth can choose to use a second Dampener to play a stealth role. If a Gal scout chooses to use a cardiac and chooses a complex card, then the suit comparison favours the Gal. It's not like the Gal blows the Amarr out of the water but there is a difference now thst their major difference and advantages has been made up by using a complex cardiac on a Gal prototype suit. Slot module balance =/= suit balance. Slot module balance =/= suit balance. Slot module balance =/= suit balance. Slot module balance =/= suit balance. Slot module balance =/= suit balance. Slot module balance =/= suit balance. Slot module balance =/= suit balance. Slot module balance =/= suit balance. Slot module balance =/= suit balance. Quote: This is not to say that the Amare is built for stealth, it's not to say the Amarr suit can't be stealthy. You are simply trying to compare one suit to another suits niche and come to a conclusion that is over hyped and dishonest. A stamina bonus is a good racial bonus, a 2-4 layout is optimal and the Amarr suit is so versatile. It does a better job at the other niches than other scouts.. It does a good job at the stealth game you seem to eagerly to compare it to the gal. It might not get to an objective before a LAV but no scout does. Stamina is essential part of a scout movement so complaining daily that stamina sucks is ridiculous. No, the amarr suit can not be better than the gallente suit in any meaningful role. The amarr suit cannot be best at any meaningful role. I do not believe that teh amarr should be better than the gallente in either scan profile reduction or scran radius. I do believe that teh amarr scout should be equally better than the gallente in an equal amount of areas, but that is not presently the case, not by a long shot. This is the last time I indulge you with a response until I can tell that you have at least read my post. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2433	Posted - 2014.03.20 10:56:00 - [66] - Quote I got like halfway through this thread before the bickering and "i'm right, you're wrong" stuff made me quit reading but I still feel I can contribute productively to this conversation. Did some similar calculating/graphing last year when I was trying to find out whether it was better to use kinkats or cardregs and came to the conclusion it is almost always better to use kinkats than cardregs. This was with pre-1.8 stats and was no comparing across suits but across mods, however the statement still stands true today: It is almost always better to have speed than stamina. Also, the proto cardreg is actually worse to use than the advanced in some scenarios because the stamina increase is the same as the regen increase, which it is not for the advanced. Regening your stamina quicker, is more beneficial in some scenarios (maybe many scenarios in 1.8). I'll repeat what I've said elsewhere about the Amarr scout - it could do with a little buff to bring it into line with the other scouts but the real thing that kicks it in the nuts is the stupidly high stamina regen on the minmatar scout. That sh*t needs to go. And give the Amarr a 5%/10% increase in stamina/regen, so that it doesn't end up outclassing itself! Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2433	Posted - 2014.03.20 11:06:00 - [67] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: With the Amarr scout I envision being able to run from home point to enemy home point while cloaked If not I'll be screaming for a respec If you looked at the charts provided in the OP. you'd realise that you'd make that run far quicker in a minmatar suit, no matter how far it is, even though you'd spend some of the time regening stamina at non-sprint pace. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2433	Posted - 2014.03.20 11:09:00 - [68] - Quote Matticus Monk wrote: Stamina is huge to me. I hate not having a cardiac regulator on my fits. For my particular situation what matters to me is down-time. Time spent regenerating stamina v.s. running. Within that 120 seconds of time covering distance (for example), how much time am I actually forced to walk v.s. run in each suit? What I want is minimal down-time per battle. I run all the time! To get places, to flank, to get from hiding to an objective to stop a hack, to evade someone about to spot me, to get to cover, etc... in fact the only time I'm not running is when I'm strafing or regenerating. What I'd like is the Amarr to excel at this - they should be better it than any other suit given the same number of cardiac regulators equipped. If not, that's bunk, but I can't really tell from your charts if that's gonna be the case. The min have better regen by far, but since this is really a problem of total stamina pool and regen time, really the best bet it seems like to me would be to gen up some down-time metric based on straight running or a mix of a certain number of jumps, this, in addition to your other charts may help folks really see the weakness. The regen downtime on minmatar is absolutely tiny - as soon as the amarr runs out of stamina, its regen downtime is massive. That is the one thing that makes minmatar so much better over every distance in every situation - because they got given an insane and totally un-requested regen buff. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Matticus Monk Ordus Trismegistus 1470	Posted - 2014.03.20 18:26:00 - [69] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Matticus Monk wrote: Stamina is huge to me. I hate not having a cardiac regulator on my fits. For my particular situation what matters to me is down-time. Time spent regenerating stamina v.s. running. Within that 120 seconds of time covering distance (for example), how much time am I actually forced to walk v.s. run in each suit? What I want is minimal down-time per battle. I run all the time! To get places, to flank, to get from hiding to an objective to stop a hack, to evade someone about to spot me, to get to cover, etc... in fact the only time I'm not running is when I'm strafing or regenerating. What I'd like is the Amarr to excel at this - they should be better it than any other suit given the same number of cardiac regulators equipped. If not, that's bunk, but I can't really tell from your charts if that's gonna be the case. The min have better regen by far, but since this is really a problem of total stamina pool and regen time, really the best bet it seems like to me would be to gen up some down-time metric based on straight running or a mix of a certain number of jumps, this, in addition to your other charts may help folks really see the weakness. The regen downtime on minmatar is absolutely tiny - as soon as the amarr runs out of stamina, its regen downtime is massive. That is the one thing that makes minmatar so much better over every distance in every situation - because they got given an insane and totally un-requested regen buff. This is true but it's not quite what I'm getting at. For any one downtime increment sure the minmatar wins, but I'm more concerned with total downtime over the course of minutes. If the amarr has less downtime cycles due to greater stamina pool, this would benefit my playstyle more. I hate not sprinting. If it has less downtime cycles, but more greater downtime due to slower recharge this may be a wash or push the balance to minmatar.... there are a few ways this could go, really and there could be some point where one suit surpasses the other in a given scenario. I think this extra bit of data would help shed some additional light on the subject. Double posting like a Kaiser.
Nothing Certain Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 327	Posted - 2014.03.20 21:17:00 - [70] - Quote Magnus, could you explain your methodology for the graphs? What I need to do my own analysis is: 1. Sprint Speed. I can't find it for Amarillo scout 2. Sprint duration in either meters or seconds 3. Regen time in seconds. I think I have that. 4. Normal movement speed. I have that for all scouts. Because, that's why.

Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 612	Posted - 2014.03.26 02:18:00 - [71] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: Magnus, could you explain your methodology for the graphs? What I need to do my own analysis is: 1. Sprint Speed. I can't find it for Amarillo scout 2. Sprint duration in either meters or seconds 3. Regen time in seconds. I think I have that. 4. Normal movement speed. I have that for all scouts. I just used the numbers provided and multilied them out on a second by second basis. I took those results and made a graph out of it. Scout speeds: Minmatar : 5.65 Cal/Gal: 5.45 Amarr : 5.25 To find sprint speed multiply by (1.4 [for sprinting] and 1.05 [for biotics lvl 5]) giving you 7.715. In-game shows as 7.72 due to rounding. The other graphs are also just using the base numbers, adding in multipliers and penalties, and then graphing it. Everything is in the units of measure that the game uses. So to find sprint duration just just divide total stamina by 10. In most cases I rounded to the nearest number to make using spreadsheet graphing easier. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 612	Posted - 2014.03.26 02:18:00 - [72] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Matticus Monk wrote: Stamina is huge to me. I hate not having a cardiac regulator on my fits. For my particular situation what matters to me is down-time. Time spent regenerating stamina v.s. running. Within that 120 seconds of time covering distance (for example), how much time am I actually forced to walk v.s. run in each suit? What I want is minimal down-time per battle. I run all the time! To get places, to flank, to get from hiding to an objective to stop a hack, to evade someone about to spot me, to get to cover, etc... in fact the only time I'm not running is when I'm strafing or regenerating. What I'd like is the Amarr to excel at this - they should be better it than any other suit given the same number of cardiac regulators equipped. If not, that's bunk, but I can't really tell from your charts if that's gonna be the case. The min have better regen by far, but since this is really a problem of total stamina pool and regen time, really the best bet it seems like to me would be to gen up some down-time metric based on straight running or a mix of a certain number of jumps, this, in addition to your other charts may help folks really see the weakness. The regen downtime on minmatar is absolutely tiny - as soon as the amarr runs out of stamina, its regen downtime is massive. That is the one thing that makes minmatar so much better over every distance in every situation - because they got given an insane and totally un-requested regen buff. No, there is more than that. It is one of the factors, but it is not the sole factor. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 612	Posted - 2014.03.26 02:20:00 - [73] - Quote Matticus Monk wrote: Django Quik wrote: Matticus Monk wrote: Stamina is huge to me. I hate not having a cardiac regulator on my fits. For my particular situation what matters to me is down-time. Time spent regenerating stamina v.s. running. Within that 120 seconds of time covering distance (for example), how much time am I actually forced to walk v.s. run in each suit? What I want is minimal down-time per battle. I run all the time! To get places, to flank, to get from hiding to an objective to stop a hack, to evade someone about to spot me, to get to cover, etc... in fact the only time I'm not running is when I'm strafing or regenerating. What I'd like is the Amarr to excel at this - they should be better it than any other suit given the same number of cardiac regulators equipped. If not, that's bunk, but I can't really tell from your charts if that's gonna be the case. The min have better regen by far, but since this is really a problem of total stamina pool and regen time, really the best bet it seems like to me would be to gen up some down-time metric based on straight running or a mix of a certain number of jumps, this, in addition to your other charts may help folks really see the weakness. The regen downtime on minmatar is absolutely tiny - as soon as the amarr runs out of stamina, its regen downtime is massive. That is the one thing that makes minmatar so much better over every distance in every situation - because they got given an insane and totally un-requested regen buff. This is true but it's not quite what I'm getting at. For any one downtime increment sure the minmatar wins, but I'm more concerned with total downtime over the course of minutes. If the amarr has less downtime cycles due to greater stamina pool, this would benefit my playstyle more. I hate not sprinting. If it has less downtime cycles, but more greater downtime due to slower recharge this may be a wash or push the balance to minmatar.... there are a few ways this could go, really and there could be some point where one suit surpasses the other in a given scenario. I think this extra bit of data would help shed some additional light on the subject. Here is the thing, you can not sprint and perform any other activity at the same time. When you stop to perform that activity, the minmatar basically fully recharges. None of the other suits even come close. Also, you will get to where you are sprinting faster with the minmatar. This means that you present a target for less time. This means you stay alive longer. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.


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