DUST Search - So how much worth does stamina have?

Magnus Amadeuss wrote:

Now of course large differences in stamina and recovery do make appreciable differences, this can be seen when going from a heavy suit to a scout suit (aside from the raw speed difference.) The question is though, among suits of the same class, what difference does it actually make??

So to illustrate what kind of differences stamina makes for suits, I figured I could throw a few pictures at you guys.

Here is the stamina levels of our scout with various amounts of cardiac mods on them:
Stamina
Stamina Recovery

Wow looks like that bonus makes a pretty big difference doesn't it?

Here is the difference those bars actually make:
Clicky

Why choose a marathon run? Well, it is the most demanding activity that you could do constantly involving both stamina and recovery. As both jumping and melee involve percentages of you stamina, rather than amounts, there is no reason to involve those activities. Believe me when I say there is no fairer way to compare stamina and recharge values as they apply in-game.

In the end though, you be the judge. Is the bonus useful?


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Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 49	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:31:00 - [1] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Now of course large differences in stamina and recovery do make appreciable differences, this can be seen when going from a heavy suit to a scout suit (aside from the raw speed difference.) The question is though, among suits of the same class, what difference does it actually make?? So to illustrate what kind of differences stamina makes for suits, I figured I could throw a few pictures at you guys. Here is the stamina levels of our scout with various amounts of cardiac mods on them: Stamina Stamina Recovery Wow looks like that bonus makes a pretty big difference doesn't it? Here is the difference those bars actually make: Clicky Why choose a marathon run? Well, it is the most demanding activity that you could do constantly involving both stamina and recovery. As both jumping and melee involve percentages of you stamina, rather than amounts, there is no reason to involve those activities. Believe me when I say there is no fairer way to compare stamina and recharge values as they apply in-game. In the end though, you be the judge. Is the bonus useful? At std and adv the stamina bonus is great. But of course you're an f'ing moron and dont compare all scout suits equally, instead you want to compare Amarr to a suit whose niche is dampening and complain only at a prototype level. At std and adv the Gal and Amarr trade a Complex Damp or a std card cat. This means both are even but Gal gains passive armor rep and more eWar than Amarr who still has more stamina/recovery and eHP. Are the tradeoffs fair, yes. One suit is trying to copy another niches and in comparison it does better. Now what everyone complains about is at Proto, the Gal can afford to use a complex card cat while the Amarr is still forced to use a complex damp in order to stay off the radar. So it gives the Gal suit an advantage, but it is only because you want your Amarr suit to be the Gal and you're an idiot and can't see that Amarr can adapt to many builds because of its layout and the Cal and Min suits cannot. Cal and Min have 2 lows, they cannot possibly stay off the radar and have a slot left for a card, Kin, armor rep, high eHP etc... They. Are simply forced into doing the best they can, which means Cal can run a nice shield tank, a eWar specialist, or a hybrid of them both. This is not to day the Cal doesnt excel as a scout but it can no way compare to the Gal or Amarr in this crazy game you're complaining about. With 2 lows its impossible to play the stealth game and be as effective with movement, cloaks will help but Cal so not stack up. So while the Cal can in no way stack upto another classes niche, no one is complaining about what niche the Cal has and it's seemingly great potential to be a speed eWar specialist... Scan, chase, hunt. The Min at least has 3-3, it has slightly more flexibility but again if they are to be stealth it means they will either lack a card for stamina or a kin for speed, builds with Gal and Amarr can excel at. If you haven't heard the Min adv suit has a difficult time at adv level equipping anything due to its PG which hurts greatly. I'm not saying that a CR isnt a great weapon, it just shouldn't be the only weapon primary available to a class...not to mention NK suck atm, poor hit detection, no PG reduction. So the bonus is NK which is a Cal weapon, strange, and while a hacking bonus is also a nice niche it is in no way as good as a stamina bonus. The Min bonus, its a huge niche. Hacking bonus is great for some but it's no way a strong bonus. In fact Amarr could equip 2 dampeners and a code breaker and it wouldn't be on par but still does a good job in this role, especially when Min have 3-2 layout at adv suits. Again, the Min scout not only forces you to NK it also dictates which weapon you pair them with because of the PG totals at adv. No one complains about the Min bonus, it's seems like a joke, it's just meant for a few people to run around like idiots and have fun, so again no1 is complaining about getting NK'd or how someone is hacking too fast. So can the Amarr suit stack up with the Gal, it sure can. Does it surpass the Gal, at advice its pretty damn close but at prototype is just can't stack up well enough. Which is fine, because like i said you're trying to force Amarr to be something another class is getting a bonus for. It still does a great job at a stealth type role, far far better than the a Cal or Min can do. Can the Amarr play the scanning game, no but neither can the other 2 scouts. Can it play the hacking game, yes.. Can it play a NK game, no but who the hell wants to do that when a CQC does a better job when you can get a jump on high eHP targets. Is tossing an RE better than NK, probably is. Stamina plus stamina regen is a great racial bonus, even at 5%. Would a 7% boost per level mean that the Amarr and Gal at prototype share the same stats, yes but then it would blow the other two suits away. It's okay to have a suit thst is capable of playing a variety of roles very well and not excelling at other scout's niches. Saying that you need to run somewhere and the Amarr doesnt perform is bullshit. If its a long distance you get LAV but between one point to another their layout is ideal. And at adv their suits out perform their counterparts which is saying a lot to how good their bonus is for their adaptive role. I know you're forced to go into Amarr but it's not a bad choice, especially at scout. You get all the benefits and none of the drawback due to the slot layout, while you do perfectly fine keeping up with the jones' and being able to adapt to fit any style of battle.
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 49	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:35:00 - [2] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: low genius wrote: it's my favorite bonus to a suit. personally. I am really not trying to be insulting here, seriously, but I have a question. Why is it that I only ever see non-amarr avatars stating this? They are just trying to lobby for the best scout. It's okay, that's playing the game. Some have elite positions in the community and try to use it to gain more, which is fine but there are so many more serious issues that need to be addressed.
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 49	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:51:00 - [3] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Cotsy8 wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: low genius wrote: it's my favorite bonus to a suit. personally. I am really not trying to be insulting here, seriously, but I have a question. Why is it that I only ever see non-amarr avatars stating this? They are just trying to lobby for the best scout. It's okay, that's playing the game. Some have elite positions in the community and try to use it to gain more, which is fine but there are so many more serious issues that need to be addressed. Wow the conspiracies just don't end It's almost as if Forum Avatar = Faction You Currently Support If you are forced to pick Amarr, because according the True they are, then they just want to lobby for the best suit possible. Most others want to lobby for balanced but that's not what these thread spammers want. They see their suit as sub par at the Gal niche at prototype and want a better suit. There's nothing wrong with lobbying, it's just whether or not their delusions are acted upon by CCP. I've already made my suggestions long ago, the bonus should be 7% not 5%. At 7% it is on par with Gal while still requiring the Min to be fixed. There's nothing wrong with a Cal but i would like to see its slots be 3-3 and not 4-2. I suggested 5% counter hacking bonus or a 5% climbing ladder bonus + less fall damage to be added to their current bonus. These are not very important matters but do contain a niche as a saboteur or a silent killer capable of getting above you and taking you out. Even a 5% bonus to seeing equipment would make their saboteur role more prominent but no! these assholes in their many threads want ridiculous bonuses which not only make the Amarr scout the best scout but best suit in the game. I'm trying to be as objective as I can with my additional bonus suggestions but so far all the feedback I receive is give Amarr 10% stamina and stamina regen or give them 5% scan radius too. You'll see 1.8 will role around and those who got forced into Amarr will be thankful they weren't forced into Min scouts or any assault class.
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 49	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:56:00 - [4] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Cotsy8 wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: low genius wrote: it's my favorite bonus to a suit. personally. I am really not trying to be insulting here, seriously, but I have a question. Why is it that I only ever see non-amarr avatars stating this? They are just trying to lobby for the best scout. It's okay, that's playing the game. Some have elite positions in the community and try to use it to gain more, which is fine but there are so many more serious issues that need to be addressed. Its not about having the best scout....its about having a scout, one that functions on par with its counter parts, not another combat unit. Show me how you think Min and Cal at adv and prototype stack up with your delusions of a stealth scout. Show me how they can be a better stealth scout then the Amarr can at adv and Proto. Now I've already said at adv the gal and Amarr are very similar (balanced) except theres a small matter of reps but it's not significant in showing their differences, marginal at best. Yes at Proto when playing the stealth role a Gal can afford a complex cardiac while the Amarth is forced to use a second Dampener... But again thats the niche for a Gal (stealth) while the Amarr nice seems to be adaptability.... Which by the way is a much better bonus than the Min and even the eWar specialist Cal scout can't play the stealth game, so how is the Amarr such a broken, horrible suit... I really do not know. And please if you want to run long distances, let me get a militia fatty suit then call a LAV and beat you to it.
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 49	Posted - 2014.03.20 02:08:00 - [5] - Quote You refuse to acknowledge your ridiculous point that the Amarr should excel at which the Gal has a niche in. Yet you make no attempt to hold the Min and Cal to the same standard, as I have shown the Amare does a very good job at the stealth game compared to the Gal (could argue it is balanced at adv suit) and far exceeds that of the Min (especially in adv and even so at Proto) and Cal. Cal at adv and Proto would need to use both lows for dampeners, which I hope you can agree is a significant disadvantage. Min at advice would need to use both it lows, and at Proto would need to use 2/3 slot for dampeners. While this leaves one slot open it means the Min would lack stamina (ability to flank, stalk, close the gap, NK, flee) or speed (close the gap to NK or escape). Again, a significant disadvantage because it would lack one or the other. Sure, Min base speed is nice and cloaks will help but NK range is so small that speed and stamina are essential. The cal bonus fits with its role, no one complains about its niche role or its ability to adapt to other roles (it cannot). Min scouts are even a smaller niche with way more significant problems. PG concerns at adv suit, the one low slot to play with, the NK requiring very close range to hit and even then hit detection isn't great. Its difficult to have a class choose not only your weapon (its a sidearm and frankly why wouldn't you RE someone if you're that close) and provide a hacking bonus which isn't as useful as the other racial bonuses in its class, is hacking useful, can be extremely useful but it's not some essential bonus that makes the class more than a niche. If you choose not to use a NK because their are less effective than other weapons, it further diminishes the class' comparison to the other scouts. The min scout is a niche in a niche market, few take it seriously enough to bother to compare it to other scouts. Amarr, like Gal, have 2-4 providing the ability to have stealth. Stamina, speed, and ability to choose to replace one slot with what their racial bonus gives. In the case of the Gal they may choose to use a kin cat or armor to help their build while the Amarr may choose a Dampener or armor mods to help. There is very little difference at the advanced tier between these suits, but at prototype this is different. At Proto the Amarr suit, which doesn't have a niche in stealth can choose to use a second Dampener to play a stealth role. If a Gal scout chooses to use a cardiac and chooses a complex card, then the suit comparison favours the Gal. It's not like the Gal blows the Amarr out of the water but there is a difference now thst their major difference and advantages has been made up by using a complex cardiac on a Gal prototype suit. This is not to say that the Amare is built for stealth, it's not to say the Amarr suit can't be stealthy. You are simply trying to compare one suit to another suits niche and come to a conclusion that is over hyped and dishonest. A stamina bonus is a good racial bonus, a 2-4 layout is optimal and the Amarr suit is so versatile. It does a better job at the other niches than other scouts.. It does a good job at the stealth game you seem to eagerly to compare it to the gal. It might not get to an objective before a LAV but no scout does. Stamina is essential part of a scout movement so complaining daily that stamina sucks is ridiculous.