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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
5915
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Posted - 2014.03.20 02:26:00 -
[61] - Quote
Scout Registry wrote: Friendly Reminder: IWS went to bat for Scouts.
But, he did say no to quid pro quo.
AV > HAV > INF > AV | Not: HAV > AV GëÑ INF
[s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through
-HAND
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
3205
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Posted - 2014.03.20 02:27:00 -
[62] - Quote
With the Amarr scout I envision being able to run from home point to enemy home point while cloaked
If not I'll be screaming for a respec
ML Director
Eve Toon - Raylan Scott
Level 3 Forum Warrior
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Roy Ventus
Axis of Chaos
1423
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Posted - 2014.03.20 02:45:00 -
[63] - Quote
OP, it's really hard to take you serious, despite your math and graphs and actually proper argument, when you insult people who haven't even insulted you. I think I'm guilty of the same sometimes but still...
But ignoring that...
I believe the bonus is useful and not because it allows the Amarr to run longer than others but because the Amarr scout can tank while doing it.
Maybe the Amarr scout would be better off being able to outrun their enemy through their stamina...but I honestly would rather see just how well they do at tanking in 1.8.
That's my belief.
"There once was a time when there wasn't a Roy Ventus and it wasn't much of a time at all."
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Matticus Monk
Ordus Trismegistus
1445
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Posted - 2014.03.20 03:10:00 -
[64] - Quote
Stamina is huge to me. I hate not having a cardiac regulator on my fits.
For my particular situation what matters to me is down-time. Time spent regenerating stamina v.s. running. Within that 120 seconds of time covering distance (for example), how much time am I actually forced to walk v.s. run in each suit?
What I want is minimal down-time per battle. I run all the time! To get places, to flank, to get from hiding to an objective to stop a hack, to evade someone about to spot me, to get to cover, etc... in fact the only time I'm not running is when I'm strafing or regenerating. What I'd like is the Amarr to excel at this - they should be better it than any other suit given the same number of cardiac regulators equipped.
If not, that's bunk, but I can't really tell from your charts if that's gonna be the case. The min have better regen by far, but since this is really a problem of total stamina pool and regen time, really the best bet it seems like to me would be to gen up some down-time metric based on straight running or a mix of a certain number of jumps, this, in addition to your other charts may help folks really see the weakness.
Double posting like a Kaiser.
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Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
601
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Posted - 2014.03.20 04:38:00 -
[65] - Quote
[quote=Cotsy8]You refuse to acknowledge your ridiculous point that the Amarr should excel at which the Gal has a niche in. Yet you make no attempt to hold the Min and Cal to the same standard, as I have shown the Amare does a very good job at the stealth game compared to the Gal (could argue it is balanced at adv suit) and far exceeds that of the Min (especially in adv and even so at Proto) and Cal.
No I do not. I do not believe that teh amarr should be better than the gallente in either scan profile reduction or scran radius. I do believe that teh amarr scout should be equally better than the gallente in an equal amount of areas, but that is not presently the case, not by a long shot.
Also, no , no you haven't shown anything to that effect. Actually I just posted a few charts to directly refute that assertion of yours.
Quote: Cal at adv and Proto would need to use both lows for dampeners, which I hope you can agree is a significant disadvantage. Min at advice would need to use both it lows, and at Proto would need to use 2/3 slot for dampeners. While this leaves one slot open it means the Min would lack stamina (ability to flank, stalk, close the gap, NK, flee) or speed (close the gap to NK or escape). Again, a significant disadvantage because it would lack one or the other. Sure, Min base speed is nice and cloaks will help but NK range is so small that speed and stamina are essential.
Just like how the amarr suit would be out of the same number of low slots, and now it is WAY worse than the gallente in every way. Once again, you are conflating argument about slot layout versus bonus, they ARE COMPLETELY SEPARATE DUMMY.
Unless the minnie uncloaks idk... 191 meters away from it's target when wanting to NK them, it will be just fine. No, that's not really a disadvantage is it?
Quote: The cal bonus fits with its role, no one complains about its niche role or its ability to adapt to other roles (it cannot). Min scouts are even a smaller niche with way more significant problems. PG concerns at adv suit, the one low slot to play with, the NK requiring very close range to hit and even then hit detection isn't great. Its difficult to have a class choose not only your weapon (its a sidearm and frankly why wouldn't you RE someone if you're that close) and provide a hacking bonus which isn't as useful as the other racial bonuses in its class, is hacking useful, can be extremely useful but it's not some essential bonus that makes the class more than a niche. If you choose not to use a NK because their are less effective than other weapons, it further diminishes the class' comparison to the other scouts. The min scout is a niche in a niche market, few take it seriously enough to bother to compare it to other scouts.
Caldari does a tanky scout better than any other suit (shield w/ no speed penalty and quick recharge?? yes please). Sure gallente and amarr can get more HP, but then they move at assault speed and aren't really scout anymore are they? Caldari can do scan radius better (than anyone) they can do scan precision better than anyone.
Min scout is the very best for stealth hacking/assasination. It can be far and away the fastest scout. It can get to any point on the map faster than any other scout. Hacking bonus >>>>>>>>>>>> stamina bonus, look at the charts. stamnia makes barely any difference AT ALL for the amarr suit. The minmatar suit will be insanely good come 1.8. Fastest, highest damage, fastest hacking, fastest to get point A to point B..... yeah it will be awesome.
Quote:
Amarr, like Gal, have 2-4 providing the ability to have stealth. Stamina, speed, and ability to choose to replace one slot with what their racial bonus gives. In the case of the Gal they may choose to use a kin cat or armor to help their build while the Amarr may choose a Dampener or armor mods to help. There is very little difference at the advanced tier between these suits, but at prototype this is different. At Proto the Amarr suit, which doesn't have a niche in stealth can choose to use a second Dampener to play a stealth role. If a Gal scout chooses to use a cardiac and chooses a complex card, then the suit comparison favours the Gal. It's not like the Gal blows the Amarr out of the water but there is a difference now thst their major difference and advantages has been made up by using a complex cardiac on a Gal prototype suit.
Slot module balance =/= suit balance. Slot module balance =/= suit balance. Slot module balance =/= suit balance. Slot module balance =/= suit balance. Slot module balance =/= suit balance. Slot module balance =/= suit balance. Slot module balance =/= suit balance. Slot module balance =/= suit balance. Slot module balance =/= suit balance.
Quote: This is not to say that the Amare is built for stealth, it's not to say the Amarr suit can't be stealthy. You are simply trying to compare one suit to another suits niche and come to a conclusion that is over hyped and dishonest.
A stamina bonus is a good racial bonus, a 2-4 layout is optimal and the Amarr suit is so versatile. It does a better job at the other niches than other scouts.. It does a good job at the stealth game you seem to eagerly to compare it to the gal. It might not get to an objective before a LAV but no scout does. Stamina is essential part of a scout movement so complaining daily that stamina sucks is ridiculous.
No, the amarr suit can not be better than the gallente suit in any meaningful role. The amarr suit cannot be best at any meaningful role.
I do not believe that teh amarr should be better than the gallente in either scan profile reduction or scran radius. I do believe that teh amarr scout should be equally better than the gallente in an equal amount of areas, but that is not presently the case, not by a long shot.
This is the last time I indulge you with a response until I can tell that you have at least read my post.
While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
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Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
2433
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Posted - 2014.03.20 10:56:00 -
[66] - Quote
I got like halfway through this thread before the bickering and "i'm right, you're wrong" stuff made me quit reading but I still feel I can contribute productively to this conversation.
Did some similar calculating/graphing last year when I was trying to find out whether it was better to use kinkats or cardregs and came to the conclusion it is almost always better to use kinkats than cardregs. This was with pre-1.8 stats and was no comparing across suits but across mods, however the statement still stands true today:
It is almost always better to have speed than stamina.
Also, the proto cardreg is actually worse to use than the advanced in some scenarios because the stamina increase is the same as the regen increase, which it is not for the advanced. Regening your stamina quicker, is more beneficial in some scenarios (maybe many scenarios in 1.8).
I'll repeat what I've said elsewhere about the Amarr scout - it could do with a little buff to bring it into line with the other scouts but the real thing that kicks it in the nuts is the stupidly high stamina regen on the minmatar scout. That sh*t needs to go. And give the Amarr a 5%/10% increase in stamina/regen, so that it doesn't end up outclassing itself!
Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot
Scout community is the nuts
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Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
2433
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Posted - 2014.03.20 11:06:00 -
[67] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:With the Amarr scout I envision being able to run from home point to enemy home point while cloaked
If not I'll be screaming for a respec If you looked at the charts provided in the OP. you'd realise that you'd make that run far quicker in a minmatar suit, no matter how far it is, even though you'd spend some of the time regening stamina at non-sprint pace.
Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot
Scout community is the nuts
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Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
2433
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Posted - 2014.03.20 11:09:00 -
[68] - Quote
Matticus Monk wrote:Stamina is huge to me. I hate not having a cardiac regulator on my fits.
For my particular situation what matters to me is down-time. Time spent regenerating stamina v.s. running. Within that 120 seconds of time covering distance (for example), how much time am I actually forced to walk v.s. run in each suit?
What I want is minimal down-time per battle. I run all the time! To get places, to flank, to get from hiding to an objective to stop a hack, to evade someone about to spot me, to get to cover, etc... in fact the only time I'm not running is when I'm strafing or regenerating. What I'd like is the Amarr to excel at this - they should be better it than any other suit given the same number of cardiac regulators equipped.
If not, that's bunk, but I can't really tell from your charts if that's gonna be the case. The min have better regen by far, but since this is really a problem of total stamina pool and regen time, really the best bet it seems like to me would be to gen up some down-time metric based on straight running or a mix of a certain number of jumps, this, in addition to your other charts may help folks really see the weakness.
The regen downtime on minmatar is absolutely tiny - as soon as the amarr runs out of stamina, its regen downtime is massive. That is the one thing that makes minmatar so much better over every distance in every situation - because they got given an insane and totally un-requested regen buff.
Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot
Scout community is the nuts
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Matticus Monk
Ordus Trismegistus
1470
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Posted - 2014.03.20 18:26:00 -
[69] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Matticus Monk wrote:Stamina is huge to me. I hate not having a cardiac regulator on my fits.
For my particular situation what matters to me is down-time. Time spent regenerating stamina v.s. running. Within that 120 seconds of time covering distance (for example), how much time am I actually forced to walk v.s. run in each suit?
What I want is minimal down-time per battle. I run all the time! To get places, to flank, to get from hiding to an objective to stop a hack, to evade someone about to spot me, to get to cover, etc... in fact the only time I'm not running is when I'm strafing or regenerating. What I'd like is the Amarr to excel at this - they should be better it than any other suit given the same number of cardiac regulators equipped.
If not, that's bunk, but I can't really tell from your charts if that's gonna be the case. The min have better regen by far, but since this is really a problem of total stamina pool and regen time, really the best bet it seems like to me would be to gen up some down-time metric based on straight running or a mix of a certain number of jumps, this, in addition to your other charts may help folks really see the weakness.
The regen downtime on minmatar is absolutely tiny - as soon as the amarr runs out of stamina, its regen downtime is massive. That is the one thing that makes minmatar so much better over every distance in every situation - because they got given an insane and totally un-requested regen buff.
This is true but it's not quite what I'm getting at. For any one downtime increment sure the minmatar wins, but I'm more concerned with total downtime over the course of minutes. If the amarr has less downtime cycles due to greater stamina pool, this would benefit my playstyle more. I hate not sprinting. If it has less downtime cycles, but more greater downtime due to slower recharge this may be a wash or push the balance to minmatar.... there are a few ways this could go, really and there could be some point where one suit surpasses the other in a given scenario.
I think this extra bit of data would help shed some additional light on the subject.
Double posting like a Kaiser.
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Nothing Certain
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
327
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Posted - 2014.03.20 21:17:00 -
[70] - Quote
Magnus, could you explain your methodology for the graphs? What I need to do my own analysis is: 1. Sprint Speed. I can't find it for Amarillo scout 2. Sprint duration in either meters or seconds 3. Regen time in seconds. I think I have that. 4. Normal movement speed. I have that for all scouts.
Because, that's why.
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Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
612
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Posted - 2014.03.26 02:18:00 -
[71] - Quote
Nothing Certain wrote:Magnus, could you explain your methodology for the graphs? What I need to do my own analysis is: 1. Sprint Speed. I can't find it for Amarillo scout 2. Sprint duration in either meters or seconds 3. Regen time in seconds. I think I have that. 4. Normal movement speed. I have that for all scouts.
I just used the numbers provided and multilied them out on a second by second basis. I took those results and made a graph out of it. Scout speeds: Minmatar : 5.65 Cal/Gal: 5.45 Amarr : 5.25
To find sprint speed multiply by (1.4 [for sprinting] and 1.05 [for biotics lvl 5]) giving you 7.715. In-game shows as 7.72 due to rounding.
The other graphs are also just using the base numbers, adding in multipliers and penalties, and then graphing it.
Everything is in the units of measure that the game uses. So to find sprint duration just just divide total stamina by 10. In most cases I rounded to the nearest number to make using spreadsheet graphing easier.
While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
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Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
612
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Posted - 2014.03.26 02:18:00 -
[72] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Matticus Monk wrote:Stamina is huge to me. I hate not having a cardiac regulator on my fits.
For my particular situation what matters to me is down-time. Time spent regenerating stamina v.s. running. Within that 120 seconds of time covering distance (for example), how much time am I actually forced to walk v.s. run in each suit?
What I want is minimal down-time per battle. I run all the time! To get places, to flank, to get from hiding to an objective to stop a hack, to evade someone about to spot me, to get to cover, etc... in fact the only time I'm not running is when I'm strafing or regenerating. What I'd like is the Amarr to excel at this - they should be better it than any other suit given the same number of cardiac regulators equipped.
If not, that's bunk, but I can't really tell from your charts if that's gonna be the case. The min have better regen by far, but since this is really a problem of total stamina pool and regen time, really the best bet it seems like to me would be to gen up some down-time metric based on straight running or a mix of a certain number of jumps, this, in addition to your other charts may help folks really see the weakness.
The regen downtime on minmatar is absolutely tiny - as soon as the amarr runs out of stamina, its regen downtime is massive. That is the one thing that makes minmatar so much better over every distance in every situation - because they got given an insane and totally un-requested regen buff.
No, there is more than that. It is one of the factors, but it is not the sole factor.
While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
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Magnus Amadeuss
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
612
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Posted - 2014.03.26 02:20:00 -
[73] - Quote
Matticus Monk wrote:Django Quik wrote:Matticus Monk wrote:Stamina is huge to me. I hate not having a cardiac regulator on my fits.
For my particular situation what matters to me is down-time. Time spent regenerating stamina v.s. running. Within that 120 seconds of time covering distance (for example), how much time am I actually forced to walk v.s. run in each suit?
What I want is minimal down-time per battle. I run all the time! To get places, to flank, to get from hiding to an objective to stop a hack, to evade someone about to spot me, to get to cover, etc... in fact the only time I'm not running is when I'm strafing or regenerating. What I'd like is the Amarr to excel at this - they should be better it than any other suit given the same number of cardiac regulators equipped.
If not, that's bunk, but I can't really tell from your charts if that's gonna be the case. The min have better regen by far, but since this is really a problem of total stamina pool and regen time, really the best bet it seems like to me would be to gen up some down-time metric based on straight running or a mix of a certain number of jumps, this, in addition to your other charts may help folks really see the weakness.
The regen downtime on minmatar is absolutely tiny - as soon as the amarr runs out of stamina, its regen downtime is massive. That is the one thing that makes minmatar so much better over every distance in every situation - because they got given an insane and totally un-requested regen buff. This is true but it's not quite what I'm getting at. For any one downtime increment sure the minmatar wins, but I'm more concerned with total downtime over the course of minutes. If the amarr has less downtime cycles due to greater stamina pool, this would benefit my playstyle more. I hate not sprinting. If it has less downtime cycles, but more greater downtime due to slower recharge this may be a wash or push the balance to minmatar.... there are a few ways this could go, really and there could be some point where one suit surpasses the other in a given scenario. I think this extra bit of data would help shed some additional light on the subject.
Here is the thing, you can not sprint and perform any other activity at the same time. When you stop to perform that activity, the minmatar basically fully recharges. None of the other suits even come close.
Also, you will get to where you are sprinting faster with the minmatar. This means that you present a target for less time. This means you stay alive longer.
While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
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