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So how much worth does stamina have?

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Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 747	Posted - 2014.03.17 09:09:00 - [31] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Now of course large differences in stamina and recovery do make appreciable differences, this can be seen when going from a heavy suit to a scout suit (aside from the raw speed difference.) The question is though, among suits of the same class, what difference does it actually make?? So to illustrate what kind of differences stamina makes for suits, I figured I could throw a few pictures at you guys. Here is the stamina levels of our scout with various amounts of cardiac mods on them: Stamina Stamina Recovery Wow looks like that bonus makes a pretty big difference doesn't it? Here is the difference those bars actually make: Clicky Why choose a marathon run? Well, it is the most demanding activity that you could do constantly involving both stamina and recovery. As both jumping and melee involve percentages of you stamina, rather than amounts, there is no reason to involve those activities. Believe me when I say there is no fairer way to compare stamina and recharge values as they apply in-game. In the end though, you be the judge. Is the bonus useful? Hmm I am still not convinced about that percentage rate for jumping according to the stats shown here it looks like a fixed rate (which in fact would make way more sense). Also if you slap a cardiac regulator on you can perform more jumps as without this would not be possible if jumping would cost a percentage of your stamina.... For me stamina is inedible useful stamina is one of the stats I always use, so for my play style stamina is worth more than hp, thats why I use crdiac regulator on nearly all fits instead of plates...
DozersMouse XIII Ultramarine Corp 186	Posted - 2014.03.17 09:12:00 - [32] - Quote stamina pool means more then regen (regarding bunny hopping) and those of us who actually play scout we know how important jumping is specifically jumping to get out of harms way or jumping over a railing to engage a target after you make this jump or two you still need stamina to sprint (amarr will have this) as a scout who in hell runs a straight line (marathon running) all the time? not me I jump strafe jump behind a box pop out kill and sprint to the next destination and repeat I put two complex greens on my gk.0 tonight and timed right I could jump infinite times Bacon pancakes makin' bacon pancakes Take some bacon and I'll put it a pancake Bacon pancakes thats what it's gonna make
COVERT SUBTERFUGE PSU GHOST SYNDICATE DARKSTAR ARMY 637	Posted - 2014.03.17 09:42:00 - [33] - Quote Wow, all these Amarr freaking out over their scout bonus. lol Proud Minmatar scout - Republic Merc 6/10 Immune to bitter/jaded vet syndrome Roll with the punches instead of QQing
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 580	Posted - 2014.03.19 22:51:00 - [34] - Quote DozersMouse XIII wrote: stamina pool means more then regen (regarding bunny hopping) and those of us who actually play scout we know how important jumping is specifically jumping to get out of harms way or jumping over a railing to engage a target after you make this jump or two you still need stamina to sprint (amarr will have this) as a scout who in hell runs a straight line (marathon running) all the time? not me I jump strafe jump behind a box pop out kill and sprint to the next destination and repeat I put two complex greens on my gk.0 tonight and timed right I could jump infinite times No, it doesn't. Stamina regen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stamina pool. The difference is absolutely insane how much more important one is than the other. I realize that you just repeated the two complex green argument from the other thread, so I will no regurgitate my entire response here. Needless to say, your "infinite times" observation is completely wrong. It the stamina regen that allows you to jump more often based upon timing between jumps, and it has absolutely nothing to do with stamina regen. Listen, the only reason why I used the "marathon running" example is because it is the very best scenario possible to show high-stamina advantages. Even in that scenario it fails, so of course it will fall flat on it's face outside of that. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 580	Posted - 2014.03.19 22:52:00 - [35] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Now of course large differences in stamina and recovery do make appreciable differences, this can be seen when going from a heavy suit to a scout suit (aside from the raw speed difference.) The question is though, among suits of the same class, what difference does it actually make?? So to illustrate what kind of differences stamina makes for suits, I figured I could throw a few pictures at you guys. Here is the stamina levels of our scout with various amounts of cardiac mods on them: Stamina Stamina Recovery Wow looks like that bonus makes a pretty big difference doesn't it? Here is the difference those bars actually make: Clicky Why choose a marathon run? Well, it is the most demanding activity that you could do constantly involving both stamina and recovery. As both jumping and melee involve percentages of you stamina, rather than amounts, there is no reason to involve those activities. Believe me when I say there is no fairer way to compare stamina and recharge values as they apply in-game. In the end though, you be the judge. Is the bonus useful? Hmm I am still not convinced about that percentage rate for jumping according to the stats shown here it looks like a fixed rate (which in fact would make way more sense). Also if you slap a cardiac regulator on you can perform more jumps as without this would not be possible if jumping would cost a percentage of your stamina.... For me stamina is incredible useful stamina is one of the stats I always use, so for my play style stamina is worth more than hp, that's why I use cardiac regulator on nearly all fits instead of plates... Actually you are partially right. It appears as though jumps have a more complicated forumla to derive the stamina used to include such factors as: Time since last jump Height of jump (based off of base speed) number of jumps While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 580	Posted - 2014.03.19 22:57:00 - [36] - Quote Winsaucerer wrote: Magnus makes some intriguing points. Assuming the calculations are done correctly, this does not look good for the Amarr scout suit. It's a bonus that seems overall worthless. I had initially thought, "maybe it will be good for quickly moving between distant points, where other suits would have to start sprinting". But if Magnus is right, that won't be it. I have not, however, checked the calculations. Under what conditions will the Amarr suit's stamina bonus give it an advantage over every other suit? Also Magnus, can you give some more details on how you calculated marathon run time please? If you look at the very first graphs, you can see in more detail the calculation results. Basically I took the sprint speed, multiplied it by the stamina divided by 10 (this gives you seconds of run-time) then took the walk speed and multiplied that by the stamina pool divided by stamina regen. I did this incrementally (seconds) using a spreadsheet so as to obtain the suits posision relative to the others at every second. Then all I needed to do was plot all of the points to produce the graphs above. The bar graphs though I just picked three specific points in time (30, 60, 120 seconds) because another forum goer suggested it. EDIT: Oh my bad, I have referenced graphs from another thread I posted. Well you can at least see how I got the bar charts from my explanations here. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2758	Posted - 2014.03.19 22:57:00 - [37] - Quote I feel like most people who complain(most) have never ran a Proto Gallente scout, or maybe even a cardio mod. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 585	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:02:00 - [38] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: I feel like most people who complain(most) have never ran a Proto Gallente scout, or maybe even a cardio mod. You know what is funny about that? I feel like most people who say what you did have absolutely no idea how stamina/stamina regen/suit performance actually intermingle, and that those people have absolutely no way to try and prove their points. These people rely on name calling and calls to authority (lol) to rest their arguments on, rather than using data that they are: 1) to lazy/stupid to collect or 2) sure would prove them wrong It is funny, because I can think of an american political party that acts in exactly the same way. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2759	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:13:00 - [39] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: I feel like most people who complain(most) have never ran a Proto Gallente scout, or maybe even a cardio mod. You know what is funny about that? I feel like most people who say what you did have absolutely no idea how stamina/stamina regen/suit performance actually intermingle, and that those people have absolutely no way to try and prove their points. These people rely on name calling and calls to authority (lol) to rest their arguments on, rather than using data that they are: 1) to lazy/stupid to collect or 2) sure would prove them wrong It is funny, because I can think of an american political party that acts in exactly the same way. Doesn't change the fact that people who haven't ran a GalScout don't know how important a Cardio mod is. 300 stamina with skills is a lot, and 1 complex mod brigs it up to 600. You can pretty much run forever with that. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 1371	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:17:00 - [40] - Quote it's my favorite bonus to a suit. personally.

Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 587	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:21:00 - [41] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: I feel like most people who complain(most) have never ran a Proto Gallente scout, or maybe even a cardio mod. You know what is funny about that? I feel like most people who say what you did have absolutely no idea how stamina/stamina regen/suit performance actually intermingle, and that those people have absolutely no way to try and prove their points. These people rely on name calling and calls to authority (lol) to rest their arguments on, rather than using data that they are: 1) to lazy/stupid to collect or 2) sure would prove them wrong It is funny, because I can think of an american political party that acts in exactly the same way. Doesn't change the fact that people who haven't ran a GalScout don't know how important a Cardio mod is. 300 stamina with skills is a lot, and 1 complex mod brigs it up to 600. You can pretty much run forever with that. Also like that political party, you are confused about what the term "fact" actually means: google wrote: fact fakt/Submit noun 1. a thing that is indisputably the case. "she lacks political experienceGÇöa fact that becomes clear when she appears in public" You realize that there is another type of scout in-game currently right? Aside from that, you also realize that one of the suits that benefited the most from green bottles was the pre-1.8-commando right? No of course you don't because only your experience, and the people who agree with you, are relevant in your little mind. Stop living in your own little bubble of a world were real facts don't matter. Also, running forever is worthless if you still get somewhere last, still jump the least, still strafe the slowest, and it has NO OTHER BENEFIT to you. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 587	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:25:00 - [42] - Quote low genius wrote: it's my favorite bonus to a suit. personally. I am really not trying to be insulting here, seriously, but I have a question. Why is it that I only ever see non-amarr avatars stating this? While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 49	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:31:00 - [43] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Now of course large differences in stamina and recovery do make appreciable differences, this can be seen when going from a heavy suit to a scout suit (aside from the raw speed difference.) The question is though, among suits of the same class, what difference does it actually make?? So to illustrate what kind of differences stamina makes for suits, I figured I could throw a few pictures at you guys. Here is the stamina levels of our scout with various amounts of cardiac mods on them: Stamina Stamina Recovery Wow looks like that bonus makes a pretty big difference doesn't it? Here is the difference those bars actually make: Clicky Why choose a marathon run? Well, it is the most demanding activity that you could do constantly involving both stamina and recovery. As both jumping and melee involve percentages of you stamina, rather than amounts, there is no reason to involve those activities. Believe me when I say there is no fairer way to compare stamina and recharge values as they apply in-game. In the end though, you be the judge. Is the bonus useful? At std and adv the stamina bonus is great. But of course you're an f'ing moron and dont compare all scout suits equally, instead you want to compare Amarr to a suit whose niche is dampening and complain only at a prototype level. At std and adv the Gal and Amarr trade a Complex Damp or a std card cat. This means both are even but Gal gains passive armor rep and more eWar than Amarr who still has more stamina/recovery and eHP. Are the tradeoffs fair, yes. One suit is trying to copy another niches and in comparison it does better. Now what everyone complains about is at Proto, the Gal can afford to use a complex card cat while the Amarr is still forced to use a complex damp in order to stay off the radar. So it gives the Gal suit an advantage, but it is only because you want your Amarr suit to be the Gal and you're an idiot and can't see that Amarr can adapt to many builds because of its layout and the Cal and Min suits cannot. Cal and Min have 2 lows, they cannot possibly stay off the radar and have a slot left for a card, Kin, armor rep, high eHP etc... They. Are simply forced into doing the best they can, which means Cal can run a nice shield tank, a eWar specialist, or a hybrid of them both. This is not to day the Cal doesnt excel as a scout but it can no way compare to the Gal or Amarr in this crazy game you're complaining about. With 2 lows its impossible to play the stealth game and be as effective with movement, cloaks will help but Cal so not stack up. So while the Cal can in no way stack upto another classes niche, no one is complaining about what niche the Cal has and it's seemingly great potential to be a speed eWar specialist... Scan, chase, hunt. The Min at least has 3-3, it has slightly more flexibility but again if they are to be stealth it means they will either lack a card for stamina or a kin for speed, builds with Gal and Amarr can excel at. If you haven't heard the Min adv suit has a difficult time at adv level equipping anything due to its PG which hurts greatly. I'm not saying that a CR isnt a great weapon, it just shouldn't be the only weapon primary available to a class...not to mention NK suck atm, poor hit detection, no PG reduction. So the bonus is NK which is a Cal weapon, strange, and while a hacking bonus is also a nice niche it is in no way as good as a stamina bonus. The Min bonus, its a huge niche. Hacking bonus is great for some but it's no way a strong bonus. In fact Amarr could equip 2 dampeners and a code breaker and it wouldn't be on par but still does a good job in this role, especially when Min have 3-2 layout at adv suits. Again, the Min scout not only forces you to NK it also dictates which weapon you pair them with because of the PG totals at adv. No one complains about the Min bonus, it's seems like a joke, it's just meant for a few people to run around like idiots and have fun, so again no1 is complaining about getting NK'd or how someone is hacking too fast. So can the Amarr suit stack up with the Gal, it sure can. Does it surpass the Gal, at advice its pretty damn close but at prototype is just can't stack up well enough. Which is fine, because like i said you're trying to force Amarr to be something another class is getting a bonus for. It still does a great job at a stealth type role, far far better than the a Cal or Min can do. Can the Amarr play the scanning game, no but neither can the other 2 scouts. Can it play the hacking game, yes.. Can it play a NK game, no but who the hell wants to do that when a CQC does a better job when you can get a jump on high eHP targets. Is tossing an RE better than NK, probably is. Stamina plus stamina regen is a great racial bonus, even at 5%. Would a 7% boost per level mean that the Amarr and Gal at prototype share the same stats, yes but then it would blow the other two suits away. It's okay to have a suit thst is capable of playing a variety of roles very well and not excelling at other scout's niches. Saying that you need to run somewhere and the Amarr doesnt perform is bullshit. If its a long distance you get LAV but between one point to another their layout is ideal. And at adv their suits out perform their counterparts which is saying a lot to how good their bonus is for their adaptive role. I know you're forced to go into Amarr but it's not a bad choice, especially at scout. You get all the benefits and none of the drawback due to the slot layout, while you do perfectly fine keeping up with the jones' and being able to adapt to fit any style of battle.
Bojo The Mighty L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 3533	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:34:00 - [44] - Quote Pretty valuable IMO. Even fitting a basic cardiac on a scout goes a long way. 68 inches above sea level...
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2759	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:35:00 - [45] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: I feel like most people who complain(most) have never ran a Proto Gallente scout, or maybe even a cardio mod. You know what is funny about that? I feel like most people who say what you did have absolutely no idea how stamina/stamina regen/suit performance actually intermingle, and that those people have absolutely no way to try and prove their points. These people rely on name calling and calls to authority (lol) to rest their arguments on, rather than using data that they are: 1) to lazy/stupid to collect or 2) sure would prove them wrong It is funny, because I can think of an american political party that acts in exactly the same way. Doesn't change the fact that people who haven't ran a GalScout don't know how important a Cardio mod is. 300 stamina with skills is a lot, and 1 complex mod brigs it up to 600. You can pretty much run forever with that. Also like that political party, you are confused about what the term "fact" actually means: google wrote: fact fakt/Submit noun 1. a thing that is indisputably the case. "she lacks political experienceGÇöa fact that becomes clear when she appears in public" You realize that there is another type of scout in-game currently right? Aside from that, you also realize that one of the suits that benefited the most from green bottles was the pre-1.8-commando right? No of course you don't because only your experience, and the people who agree with you, are relevant in your little mind. Stop living in your own little bubble of a world were real facts don't matter. Also, running forever is worthless if you still get somewhere last, still jump the least, still strafe the slowest, and it has NO OTHER BENEFIT to you. For someone trying to make a point based on facts, you sure do throw out a lot of insults. You can talk about commandos, you can say the bonus is crappy compared to the others, but it doesn't change the fact that giving it anything higher then say a 6 percent bonus per level would break the suit. You wanna talk fitting bonuses for the suit? Fine, by all means talk about any other bonus you like. But don't pretend you can max the bonus higher and not break the suit. It's the same reason Scout can not go any faster, it breaks the balance. So maybe don't resort to name calling. And just try the suit first, or better yet, something else. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 49	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:35:00 - [46] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: low genius wrote: it's my favorite bonus to a suit. personally. I am really not trying to be insulting here, seriously, but I have a question. Why is it that I only ever see non-amarr avatars stating this? They are just trying to lobby for the best scout. It's okay, that's playing the game. Some have elite positions in the community and try to use it to gain more, which is fine but there are so many more serious issues that need to be addressed.
Bojo The Mighty L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 3535	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:40:00 - [47] - Quote Cotsy8 wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: low genius wrote: it's my favorite bonus to a suit. personally. I am really not trying to be insulting here, seriously, but I have a question. Why is it that I only ever see non-amarr avatars stating this? They are just trying to lobby for the best scout. It's okay, that's playing the game. Some have elite positions in the community and try to use it to gain more, which is fine but there are so many more serious issues that need to be addressed. Wow the conspiracies just don't end It's almost as if Forum Avatar = Faction You Currently Support 68 inches above sea level...
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8420	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:44:00 - [48] - Quote Cotsy8 wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: low genius wrote: it's my favorite bonus to a suit. personally. I am really not trying to be insulting here, seriously, but I have a question. Why is it that I only ever see non-amarr avatars stating this? They are just trying to lobby for the best scout. It's okay, that's playing the game. Some have elite positions in the community and try to use it to gain more, which is fine but there are so many more serious issues that need to be addressed. Its not about having the best scout....its about having a scout, one that functions on par with its counter parts, not another combat unit. " ..- -.- --. I wish I remembered morse code so I wasn't typing random letters" - Malleus Malificorum
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 49	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:51:00 - [49] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Cotsy8 wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: low genius wrote: it's my favorite bonus to a suit. personally. I am really not trying to be insulting here, seriously, but I have a question. Why is it that I only ever see non-amarr avatars stating this? They are just trying to lobby for the best scout. It's okay, that's playing the game. Some have elite positions in the community and try to use it to gain more, which is fine but there are so many more serious issues that need to be addressed. Wow the conspiracies just don't end It's almost as if Forum Avatar = Faction You Currently Support If you are forced to pick Amarr, because according the True they are, then they just want to lobby for the best suit possible. Most others want to lobby for balanced but that's not what these thread spammers want. They see their suit as sub par at the Gal niche at prototype and want a better suit. There's nothing wrong with lobbying, it's just whether or not their delusions are acted upon by CCP. I've already made my suggestions long ago, the bonus should be 7% not 5%. At 7% it is on par with Gal while still requiring the Min to be fixed. There's nothing wrong with a Cal but i would like to see its slots be 3-3 and not 4-2. I suggested 5% counter hacking bonus or a 5% climbing ladder bonus + less fall damage to be added to their current bonus. These are not very important matters but do contain a niche as a saboteur or a silent killer capable of getting above you and taking you out. Even a 5% bonus to seeing equipment would make their saboteur role more prominent but no! these assholes in their many threads want ridiculous bonuses which not only make the Amarr scout the best scout but best suit in the game. I'm trying to be as objective as I can with my additional bonus suggestions but so far all the feedback I receive is give Amarr 10% stamina and stamina regen or give them 5% scan radius too. You'll see 1.8 will role around and those who got forced into Amarr will be thankful they weren't forced into Min scouts or any assault class.
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 49	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:56:00 - [50] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Cotsy8 wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: low genius wrote: it's my favorite bonus to a suit. personally. I am really not trying to be insulting here, seriously, but I have a question. Why is it that I only ever see non-amarr avatars stating this? They are just trying to lobby for the best scout. It's okay, that's playing the game. Some have elite positions in the community and try to use it to gain more, which is fine but there are so many more serious issues that need to be addressed. Its not about having the best scout....its about having a scout, one that functions on par with its counter parts, not another combat unit. Show me how you think Min and Cal at adv and prototype stack up with your delusions of a stealth scout. Show me how they can be a better stealth scout then the Amarr can at adv and Proto. Now I've already said at adv the gal and Amarr are very similar (balanced) except theres a small matter of reps but it's not significant in showing their differences, marginal at best. Yes at Proto when playing the stealth role a Gal can afford a complex cardiac while the Amarth is forced to use a second Dampener... But again thats the niche for a Gal (stealth) while the Amarr nice seems to be adaptability.... Which by the way is a much better bonus than the Min and even the eWar specialist Cal scout can't play the stealth game, so how is the Amarr such a broken, horrible suit... I really do not know. And please if you want to run long distances, let me get a militia fatty suit then call a LAV and beat you to it.

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8420	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:59:00 - [51] - Quote Cotsy8 wrote: Bojo The Mighty wrote: Cotsy8 wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: low genius wrote: it's my favorite bonus to a suit. personally. I am really not trying to be insulting here, seriously, but I have a question. Why is it that I only ever see non-amarr avatars stating this? They are just trying to lobby for the best scout. It's okay, that's playing the game. Some have elite positions in the community and try to use it to gain more, which is fine but there are so many more serious issues that need to be addressed. Wow the conspiracies just don't end It's almost as if Forum Avatar = Faction You Currently Support If you are forced to pick Amarr, because according the True they are, then they just want to lobby for the best suit possible. Most others want to lobby for balanced but that's not what these thread spammers want. They see their suit as sub par at the Gal niche at prototype and want a better suit. There's nothing wrong with lobbying, it's just whether or not their delusions are acted upon by CCP. I've already made my suggestions long ago, the bonus should be 7% not 5%. At 7% it is on par with Gal while still requiring the Min to be fixed. There's nothing wrong with a Cal but i would like to see its slots be 3-3 and not 4-2. I suggested 5% counter hacking bonus or a 5% climbing ladder bonus + less fall damage to be added to their current bonus. These are not very important matters but do contain a niche as a saboteur or a silent killer capable of getting above you and taking you out. Even a 5% bonus to seeing equipment would make their saboteur role more prominent but no! these assholes in their many threads want ridiculous bonuses which not only make the Amarr scout the best scout but best suit in the game. I'm trying to be as objective as I can with my additional bonus suggestions but so far all the feedback I receive is give Amarr 10% stamina and stamina regen or give them 5% scan radius too. You'll see 1.8 will role around and those who got forced into Amarr will be thankful they weren't forced into Min scouts or any assault class. Realise that Magnus only joined PCLAS yesterday and had been campaigning for weeks before hand. Regardless of whether or not I support PIE Inc in their operation in FW I am primarily concerned with balance, currently trying to establish dialogue with other AVers and HAVers who agree and want to see a change, and currently with the information provided by both sides of the argument I am inclined to agree with Magnus who thus far has provided evidence to back up his claims. Until he is proven wrong I cannot argue against his statements which all seem logically sound and are backed up with the numbers to prove his point. " ..- -.- --. I wish I remembered morse code so I wasn't typing random letters" - Malleus Malificorum
Bojo The Mighty L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 3551	Posted - 2014.03.19 23:59:00 - [52] - Quote I'm trying to instigate better arguments because everything I have seen was all about modules. Well by that case we need to nerf the Caldari precision to 4%, nerf Minmatar Nova Knife to 1%, and buff Amarr to 20% level by that method. And then you've got the Gallente Scout sitting pretty with a minute range nerf. All scouts have a 5% Level bonus therefore every specific scout has a 5% edge to the level in their area of expertise. One scout can not gain over a 5% advantage per level over another, it's that simple. I understand if it seems underwhelming but no one has a larger advantage gain over the other. However CCP screwed up with Minmatar Scouts having 60 regen (s) 68 inches above sea level...
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 594	Posted - 2014.03.20 00:43:00 - [53] - Quote Cotsy8 wrote: At std and adv the stamina bonus is great. But of course you're an f'ing moron and dont compare all scout suits equally, instead you want to compare Amarr to a suit whose niche is dampening and complain only at a prototype level. At std and adv the Gal and Amarr trade a Complex Damp or a std card cat. This means both are even but Gal gains passive armor rep and more eWar than Amarr who still has more stamina/recovery and eHP. Are the tradeoffs fair, yes. One suit is trying to copy another niches and in comparison it does better. Now what everyone complains about is at Proto, the Gal can afford to use a complex card cat while the Amarr is still forced to use a complex damp in order to stay off the radar. So it gives the Gal suit an advantage, but it is only because you want your Amarr suit to be the Gal and you're an idiot and can't see that Amarr can adapt to many builds because of its layout and the Cal and Min suits cannot. Dude, use numbers, math something that has some type of credible arguing point, otherwise your just another in a long line of mouthbreathers that just foam at the mouth for no good reason. I used math, I even made incredibly easy to read charts, I showed you how the bonus effects the suits, and I showed you the insanely small difference between the amarr suit pre-bonus and post-bonus. Under ideal conditions for stamina boosts no less. Also, you make zero sense, the bonus applies to skill level, not suit level. @ skill lvl 5, the standard gal suit will have the same bonus as the proto, same with the amarr. Are you honestly tryint to say that the argument that the gallente (and the rest of the scouts) all get the equivelent of 1 free proto module versus the amarrian 2/3rds of a militia module is somehow unfair? Really? Wanna back that up with ... i don't know.... anything? Quote: Cal and Min have 2 lows, they cannot possibly stay off the radar and have a slot left for a card, Kin, armor rep, high eHP etc... They. Are simply forced into doing the best they can, which means Cal can run a nice shield tank, a eWar specialist, or a hybrid of them both. This is not to day the Cal doesnt excel as a scout but it can no way compare to the Gal or Amarr in this crazy game you're complaining about. With 2 lows its impossible to play the stealth game and be as effective with movement, cloaks will help but Cal so not stack up. So while the Cal can in no way stack upto another classes niche, no one is complaining about what niche the Cal has and it's seemingly great potential to be a speed eWar specialist... Scan, chase, hunt. So after trying to decifer this wall of unorganized thought, I came to the conclusion that you are complaining about an imbalance between high-slots and low-slots. Ok so tell me how that has anything to do with the balance between scout suits, which should be completely unrelated? (Why you ask?. Lets say that CCP fixes the high/low slot balance, no if they prescribed to your method of doing things, they have to rebalance all of the suits. That is ******. Quote:** The Min at least has 3-3, it has slightly more flexibility but again if they are to be stealth it means they will either lack a card for stamina or a kin for speed, builds with Gal and Amarr can excel at. If you haven't heard the Min adv suit has a difficult time at adv level equipping anything due to its PG which hurts greatly. I'm not saying that a CR isnt a great weapon, it just shouldn't be the only weapon primary available to a class...not to mention NK suck atm, poor hit detection, no PG reduction. So the bonus is NK which is a Cal weapon, strange, and while a hacking bonus is also a nice niche it is in no way as good as a stamina bonus. The Min bonus, its a huge niche. Hacking bonus is great for some but it's no way a strong bonus. In fact Amarr could equip 2 dampeners and a code breaker and it wouldn't be on par but still does a good job in this role, especially when Min have 3-2 layout at adv suits. Again, the Min scout not only forces you to NK it also dictates which weapon you pair them with because of the PG totals at adv. No one complains about the Min bonus, it's seems like a joke, it's just meant for a few people to run around like idiots and have fun, so again no1 is complaining about getting NK'd or how someone is hacking too fast. See I provided proof for my claims, I gave charts and whatnot about how the current amarrian bonus is completely worthless. You have do no such thing other than stomp your feet and provide poor reasoning. You are complaining about slot balance even though it doesn't belong in a suit balance discussion thread. You are also trying to correlate the hacking bonus on merit to the stamina bonus. I have also made charts that show the INCREDIBLE difference the minmatar bonus makes, and the ALMOST IMPERCEPTIBLE difference the stamina bonus makes. The POWER of the hacking bonus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the power of the stamina bonus. That bit is done, it has been proven, it hasn't been refuted, it is unlikely to be refuted. Leave it alone. No one complains about the min scout bonus because it is worth idk... 8 or so complex modules. +25% hacking, +5% hacking, +25% NK damage, 2Xstamina recovery.... yeah I think they don't have a damn thing to complain about. Alright so I am going to have to shorten your post because quote limits, but I will touch upon the most important bits. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 595	Posted - 2014.03.20 00:55:00 - [54] - Quote costy8 wrote: So can the Amarr suit stack up with the Gal, it sure can. Does it surpass the Gal, at advice its pretty damn close but at prototype is just can't stack up well enough. Which is fine, because like i said you're trying to force Amarr to be something another class is getting a bonus for. It still does a great job at a stealth type role, far far better than the a Cal or Min can do. Can the Amarr play the scanning game, no but neither can the other 2 scouts. Can it play the hacking game, yes.. Can it play a NK game, no but who the hell wants to do that when a CQC does a better job when you can get a jump on high eHP targets. Is tossing an RE better than NK, probably is. No, the amarr suit can not stack up with the gallente, and I believe Aisha made a thread about that. Try, just try to show me one fit that the amarr suit can have that the gallente cannot outperform it in... just try. I can show you at least 2 that the gallente would crush the amarrian one in. No, I want the amarr scout to be good at something... anything. It has NO ROLE right now, just a B.S. signle bonus, that has been split into two bonuses and even at that, not even worth on militia module. Oh while being slower than an assault suit, and just gerenally crappier than all of the rest of the suits. No, the amarr suit cannot compete in hacking... ever. It can not come close to the minmatar suit, as none of the others can. Hey look, a role that the minmatar is best at. NK useless? The NV will do more damage to sentinels post 1.8 than an RE will. Don't believe me... check it out, proof: 20021.151.2521.075=1236 dmg (yep, thats a nova knife when charged for 0.8s post-cloak) 15000.75=1125 (thats the dmg a RE will do post 1.8 to a setninel) Oh, also you will never run out of ammo for the NK and you will be able to follow up attack with the NK. Quote: Stamina plus stamina regen is a great racial bonus, even at 5%. Would a 7% boost per level mean that the Amarr and Gal at prototype share the same stats, yes but then it would blow the other two suits away. It's okay to have a suit thst is capable of playing a variety of roles very well and not excelling at other scout's niches. No it really isn't. See you saying "it is great even at 5%" is 100% completely rebuked by my extensive charts and maths. It is not even a contest, you are 100% wrong. I seriously can not believe you are trying to argue that making the amarr bonus equivelent to the same lvl module as ONE (yes just one) of the gallente bonuses would be overpowered. I mean seriously, is that what you are saying? Really? Quote: Saying that you need to run somewhere and the Amarr doesnt perform is bullshit. If its a long distance you get LAV but between one point to another their layout is ideal. And at adv their suits out perform their counterparts which is saying a lot to how good their bonus is for their adaptive role. I know you're forced to go into Amarr but it's not a bad choice, especially at scout. You get all the benefits and none of the drawback due to the slot layout, while you do perfectly fine keeping up with the jones' and being able to adapt to fit any style of battle. No it isn't bullshit. You clamining it is bullshit is bullshit. Dude just proove my numbers wrong. Come up with some type of chart, or graph, or math, or some type.. any type of tangible evidence of what you claim.... anything please for the love of god. LoL about all the std and adv stuff you claim... dude I am just done dealing with the just overwhelming amount of ignorance coming out of your face. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Magnus Amadeuss Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 596	Posted - 2014.03.20 01:04:00 - [55] - Quote Cotsy8 wrote: True Adamance wrote: Cotsy8 wrote: Magnus Amadeuss wrote: low genius wrote: it's my favorite bonus to a suit. personally. I am really not trying to be insulting here, seriously, but I have a question. Why is it that I only ever see non-amarr avatars stating this? They are just trying to lobby for the best scout. It's okay, that's playing the game. Some have elite positions in the community and try to use it to gain more, which is fine but there are so many more serious issues that need to be addressed. Its not about having the best scout....its about having a scout, one that functions on par with its counter parts, not another combat unit. Show me how you think Min and Cal at adv and prototype stack up with your delusions of a stealth scout. Show me how they can be a better stealth scout then the Amarr can at adv and Proto. Now I've already said at adv the gal and Amarr are very similar (balanced) except theres a small matter of reps but it's not significant in showing their differences, marginal at best. Yes at Proto when playing the stealth role a Gal can afford a complex cardiac while the Amarth is forced to use a second Dampener... But again thats the niche for a Gal (stealth) while the Amarr nice seems to be adaptability.... Which by the way is a much better bonus than the Min and even the eWar specialist Cal scout can't play the stealth game, so how is the Amarr such a broken, horrible suit... I really do not know. And please if you want to run long distances, let me get a militia fatty suit then call a LAV and beat you to it. Stop acting like you have a point, or like you have proven anything because you haven't. You are 100% wrong, deal with it. Here let me provide you with some more graphs that you must have ignored. Suit Dampening Profile Dampening (lower is better) You know what that shows? The effectiveness at dampening. So lets say I wanted to be better dampening than the minmatar suit, I would have to sacrifice every low on the amarr to do so, and then the minnie suit would still: Be faster strafe more stamina regen faster hack faster more damage NKs cover EVERY DISTANCE IMAGINABLE FASTER jump more often and have more eHP... lol Still have a profile of under 16 (less than 1 more than the amarr) Or how about the caldari? Faster strafing jumping faster point a to point b jmp more often scan range hugely superior scan precision hugely superior While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 5912	Posted - 2014.03.20 01:43:00 - [56] - Quote At first I thought this was going to be another temper tantrum about Amarr Scouts, but it appears that I have been presented a well thought out and constructive post. Congrats. As a response to the OP, I find that speed is greater than stamina simply because it will allow you to cover a larger area in a shorter time span. I don't think sacrificing speed is a good idea on a Light Frame simply because it hampers it's flanking abilities, which is the Light Frame's niche. Some could argue that you might want more Stamina if your using melee attacks on people, but that's only true to an extent. Speed is also a very important factor, because you have to be able to get within range to actually hit the target; without speed your basically a turtle trying to outmaneuver a cheetah. Speed GëÑ Stamina AV > HAV > INF > AV \| Not: HAV > AV GëÑ INF [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND
Cotsy8 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 49	Posted - 2014.03.20 02:08:00 - [57] - Quote You refuse to acknowledge your ridiculous point that the Amarr should excel at which the Gal has a niche in. Yet you make no attempt to hold the Min and Cal to the same standard, as I have shown the Amare does a very good job at the stealth game compared to the Gal (could argue it is balanced at adv suit) and far exceeds that of the Min (especially in adv and even so at Proto) and Cal. Cal at adv and Proto would need to use both lows for dampeners, which I hope you can agree is a significant disadvantage. Min at advice would need to use both it lows, and at Proto would need to use 2/3 slot for dampeners. While this leaves one slot open it means the Min would lack stamina (ability to flank, stalk, close the gap, NK, flee) or speed (close the gap to NK or escape). Again, a significant disadvantage because it would lack one or the other. Sure, Min base speed is nice and cloaks will help but NK range is so small that speed and stamina are essential. The cal bonus fits with its role, no one complains about its niche role or its ability to adapt to other roles (it cannot). Min scouts are even a smaller niche with way more significant problems. PG concerns at adv suit, the one low slot to play with, the NK requiring very close range to hit and even then hit detection isn't great. Its difficult to have a class choose not only your weapon (its a sidearm and frankly why wouldn't you RE someone if you're that close) and provide a hacking bonus which isn't as useful as the other racial bonuses in its class, is hacking useful, can be extremely useful but it's not some essential bonus that makes the class more than a niche. If you choose not to use a NK because their are less effective than other weapons, it further diminishes the class' comparison to the other scouts. The min scout is a niche in a niche market, few take it seriously enough to bother to compare it to other scouts. Amarr, like Gal, have 2-4 providing the ability to have stealth. Stamina, speed, and ability to choose to replace one slot with what their racial bonus gives. In the case of the Gal they may choose to use a kin cat or armor to help their build while the Amarr may choose a Dampener or armor mods to help. There is very little difference at the advanced tier between these suits, but at prototype this is different. At Proto the Amarr suit, which doesn't have a niche in stealth can choose to use a second Dampener to play a stealth role. If a Gal scout chooses to use a cardiac and chooses a complex card, then the suit comparison favours the Gal. It's not like the Gal blows the Amarr out of the water but there is a difference now thst their major difference and advantages has been made up by using a complex cardiac on a Gal prototype suit. This is not to say that the Amare is built for stealth, it's not to say the Amarr suit can't be stealthy. You are simply trying to compare one suit to another suits niche and come to a conclusion that is over hyped and dishonest. A stamina bonus is a good racial bonus, a 2-4 layout is optimal and the Amarr suit is so versatile. It does a better job at the other niches than other scouts.. It does a good job at the stealth game you seem to eagerly to compare it to the gal. It might not get to an objective before a LAV but no scout does. Stamina is essential part of a scout movement so complaining daily that stamina sucks is ridiculous.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8441	Posted - 2014.03.20 02:13:00 - [58] - Quote Atiim wrote: At first I thought this was going to be another temper tantrum about Amarr Scouts, but it appears that I have been presented a well thought out and constructive post. Congrats. As a response to the OP, I find that speed is greater than stamina simply because it will allow you to cover a larger area in a shorter time span. I don't think sacrificing speed is a good idea on a Light Frame simply because it hampers it's flanking abilities, which is the Light Frame's niche. Some could argue that you might want more Stamina if your using melee attacks on people, but that's only true to an extent. Speed is also a very important factor, because you have to be able to get within range to actually hit the target; without speed your basically a turtle trying to outmaneuver a cheetah. Speed GëÑ Stamina TY Atiim for looking at this argument and making an informed decision....frankly speaking I dont care about the Amarr scout in the slightest...I'm arguing because no evidence is being used to support the opposing position. "Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!" -Dagger Two
Scout Registry Nos Nothi 1639	Posted - 2014.03.20 02:22:00 - [59] - Quote Magnus Amadeuss wrote: GG CSM, once again you guys were involved with just f-cking horrible game balancing. Is it on purpose or is this CSM just that bad at balancing suggestion? Friendly Reminder: IWS went to bat for Scouts.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 5915	Posted - 2014.03.20 02:25:00 - [60] - Quote True Adamance wrote: TY Atiim for looking at this argument and making an informed decision....frankly speaking I dont care about the Amarr scout in the slightest...I'm arguing because no evidence is being used to support the opposing position. There has been evidence presented, but it's anecdotal evidence. I think the main problem is the fact that many of the people who are planning on using the Amarr Scouts are being melodramatic and non-constructive; while demanding everything under the Sun. This prevents CCP from collecting feedback, and it causes the constructive ideas and posts to be buried. Sadly because of this the Amarr Scouts are literally f***ed, as 1.8 is already code and content locked. AV > HAV > INF > AV \| Not: HAV > AV GëÑ INF [s]Text[/s] <-------- That's how you make a strike-through -HAND



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