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Driftward Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 779	Posted - 2014.03.04 19:04:00 - [1] - Quote I've been kicking around some numbers and I've found that passive scanning is profoundly skewed towards the scannee (the person being scanned). Despite having full levels in precision enhancement an unmodded scout will never see any other scout by passives (unless caldari and even then not always). While that on the surface seems fine, it doesn't actually make for good meta game in terms of fitting and module use. It relegates one module use to mostly obscurity and means that profile dampeners are of limited use as well (to most scouts with levels in racial scouts and all scouts in 1.8). In order to truly see the diversity in game play and increase the importance of using various eWAR modules (ie range extenders/precision mods/dampeners) I think that the base precision stats need to be tweaked for scouts. This would provide a counter for the current passive scan invisibility and increase diversity in fitting and game play. This would also be a good thing for those of you medium/heavy frames that fear the coming of the cloaked scout. It would mean that to be truly stealthy scouts might sacrifice more of their slots to doing that task instead of tank or damage mods to kill you from behind. Without further ado, MATH. This assumes full skills for scouts and passive electronic skills. Current (with 1.8 stats) ____Gal Scout____I____Cal Scout_____I____Generic Scout precision___ 0 damp = 23.6 dB__I__0 prec = 30.4 dB__I__0 prec/damp = 40.5 / 31.5 dB 1 damp = 17.7 dB__I__1 prec = 24.3 dB__I__1 prec/damp = 32.4 / 23.6 dB 2 damp = 13.3 dB__I__2 prec = 20.1 dB__I__2 prec/damp = 26.8 / 17.7 dB Proposed (equivalent base profile stats for precision and dampening ie 35 dB base) ____Gal Scout____I____Cal Scout_____I____Generic Scout precision___ 0 damp = 23.6 dB__I__0 prec = 23.6 dB__I__0 prec/damp = 31.5 / 31.5 dB 1 damp = 17.7 dB__I__1 prec = 18.9 dB__I__1 prec/damp = 25.2 / 23.6 dB 2 damp = 13.3 dB__I__2 prec = 15.6 dB__I__2 prec/damp = 20.8 / 17.7 dB Also, note that the cloaking bonus to scan profile currently favors the scannee tremendously. It acts essentially as an additional complex dampener on top of whatever a scout would stack in their modules. I want to especially point out the asymmetry in the generic scout profile vs. precision comparison. At almost no point is it worthwhile with the current stats to run precision enhancers for non-caldari scouts (except for the fringe case of medium suits running dampeners which is still quite uncommon). I also want to point out the extent of the bonus for caldari scouts. They can, with current stats, detect generic scouts running undampened. However, with the addition of 1 basic dampener, generic scouts are undetectable without modules on the caldari scout. And with the use of 1 complex precision enhancer all the other scout just need 1 complex dampener to beat them. For a specialized suit this seems extraordinarily backwards. It should take fewer modules to be effective within your specialty than it should take to counter that specialty suit. Also, without making scan precision and dampening somewhat equivalent there will be no counter to gal scouts in terms of passive scanning (or active for that matter without incredibly expensive and limiting fitting choices to detect them while they use only 1 module) I really like the way the rest of the scout stats are stacking up. I also think that scan profile and dampening is in a good spot numbers wise. I just believe that the precision numbers need to be tweaked as well to bring them in line with 1.8 for all the reasons I discussed above.
Snow Turtle R 0 N 1 N 10	Posted - 2014.03.04 19:09:00 - [2] - Quote As someone who has been doing the maths and plans on running a CalScout I support this heavily. I really want to only have to run one Dampener and feel pretty safe, but two dampers at the moment seems necessary, with the GalScout being the most popular post 1.8. Definitely deserving of a +1. Caldari Scout. Dedicated Saga Pilot. Knives, Needles, and Road Kill. "Don't be dead, be happy!" -Snow Turtle
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3716	Posted - 2014.03.04 20:13:00 - [3] - Quote Hopefully it's not too late for this sort of feedback. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Sana Rayya WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 915	Posted - 2014.03.04 20:55:00 - [4] - Quote If the precision numbers for scouts were changed, the Caldari Scout would become OP scan-wise. Here's how a full E-WAR advanced Cal Scout (3x complex precision enhancers in highs and 2x complex dampeners in lows, plus cloak) would stack up against full E-WAR proto scouts: 1) vs. Gallente - Would need 1 complex and 1 basic dampener + cloak to remain unscanned, and can't counter-scan. 2) vs. Minmatar - Would always be scanned regardless of fittings; can counter-scan but only if Caldari is uncloaked. 3) vs. Amarr - Would always be scanned regardless of fittings; can't counter-scan. 4) vs. Caldari - Would always be scanned and therefore always counter-scans. So you get a suit that can scan every other suit in the game except the Gal Scout with a cloak and two dampener modules, and the only suit capable of detecting it consistently is another Caldari scout. Doesn't that sound OP to you?
Haerr Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 292	Posted - 2014.03.04 21:45:00 - [5] - Quote Sana Rayya wrote: If the precision numbers for scouts were changed, the Caldari Scout would become OP scan-wise. Here's how a full E-WAR advanced Cal Scout (3x complex precision enhancers in highs and 2x complex dampeners in lows, plus cloak) would stack up against full E-WAR proto scouts: 1) vs. Gallente - Would need 1 complex and 1 basic dampener + cloak to remain unscanned, and can't counter-scan. 2) vs. Minmatar - Would always be scanned regardless of fittings; can counter-scan but only if Caldari is uncloaked. 3) vs. Amarr - Would always be scanned regardless of fittings; can't counter-scan. 4) vs. Caldari - Would always be scanned and therefore always counter-scans. So you get a suit that can scan every other suit in the game except the Gal Scout with a cloak and two dampener modules, and the only suit capable of detecting it consistently is another Caldari scout. Doesn't that sound OP to you? If the medium suits scan precision and scan profile remains the same in 1.8 we'll have the problem that only 2/4 scouts will be able to make a fit which can pickup medium suits using 2 complex profile dampeners all while 4/4 logistics suits will be able to make fits which can pickup medium suits using 2 complex profile dampeners... Maths and stuff: Scanning table 1.7: LINK Maths: LINK [WIP] Fancy scanning table for 1.8 [WIP] :: LINK This table uses the 1.8 preview stats for heavies and scouts, it currently uses the 1.7 values for medium suits. This table will be updated with the new suit stats as soon as I can after CCP shares them with us. I think it is silly that the Amarr and Gallente Scouts have no way (barring active scanners) to detect medium suits that use 2 complex profile dampeners. Apparently "Haerr" means "Hare"... Shhh. Be vewy vewy quiet, I'm a hunted wabbit!
Sana Rayya WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 915	Posted - 2014.03.04 21:58:00 - [6] - Quote Haerr wrote: I think it is silly that the Amarr and Gallente Scouts have no way (barring active scanners) to detect medium suits that use 2 complex profile dampeners. That's true, but I can't see dampeners being as widely used by mediums in 1.8 as they are in 1.7. Simply because two complex dampeners on a medium won't get you under Gallente scans (and therefore you risk wasting your slots if a Gallente logi with a scanner is in a match against you) and since scanners themselves won't be as effective, if you flank, chances are low that you'll actually get scanned anyway. Passive scanning will be much more effective than active - it already is in 1.7. So scouts skilling up passive scanning will still have a large advantage over non-scouts relying on active scanners, even if these two parties cannot detect one another.
Haerr Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 292	Posted - 2014.03.04 22:29:00 - [7] - Quote Sana Rayya wrote: Haerr wrote: I think it is silly that the Amarr and Gallente Scouts have no way (barring active scanners) to detect medium suits that use 2 complex profile dampeners. That's true, but I can't see dampeners being as widely used by mediums in 1.8 as they are in 1.7. Simply because two complex dampeners on a medium won't get you under Gallente scans (and therefore you risk wasting your slots if a Gallente logi with a scanner is in a match against you) and since scanners themselves won't be as effective, if you flank, chances are low that you'll actually get scanned anyway. Passive scanning will be much more effective than active - it already is in 1.7. So scouts skilling up passive scanning will still have a large advantage over non-scouts relying on active scanners, even if these two parties cannot detect one another. Scanners have become almost a must for most squads. While they won't be as effective in 1.8 they're hardly going to disappear over night. I know that is not what you are saying but the only other option besides scanners, to relaying enemy positions, is to clutter comms with even more chatter. That alone ensures that scanners are going to be around after 1.8 drops. The thing is that was just an example, an other is that a scout with 1 complex precision enhancer will not be able to pickup scouts using 0 profile dampeners. A very minute change to Scouts scan precision will alleviate these problems. (-1~2 scan precision for Scouts.) Apparently "Haerr" means "Hare"... Shhh. Be vewy vewy quiet, I'm a hunted wabbit!
Godin Thekiller OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1821	Posted - 2014.03.04 23:07:00 - [8] - Quote Cal scout nor do Amarr or Winmatar scouts are supposed to be as good as Gallente or near as good as Gallente when it comes to dampening. No. Get better at flanking, and you won't be scanned 'lights cigar' fuck with me, and I'll melt your face off. Gallente forever! Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Sana Rayya WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 919	Posted - 2014.03.05 10:54:00 - [9] - Quote @ Haerr Let's just increase the medium frame scan profile to 51dB - that'd solve the double dampener issue while letting scouts with two complex precision enhancers still scan them.
Haerr Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 297	Posted - 2014.03.05 13:19:00 - [10] - Quote Sana Rayya wrote: @ Haerr Let's just increase the medium frame scan profile to 51dB - that'd solve the double dampener issue while letting scouts with two complex precision enhancers still scan them. That would only solve this problem: A Scout using 2 Complex Precision Enhancer can't detect a Medium Suit using 2 Complex Profile Dampeners. The following problems would still be left unsolved: A Caldari Scout with 3 Complex Precision Enhancers can't detect a Gallente Scout using 1 Complex Profile Dampener. A Caldari Scout with 1 Complex Precision Enhancer can't detect a Scout using 1 Complex Profile Dampener. A Scout with 3 Complex Precision Enhancers can't detect a Scout using 1 Complex Profile Dampener. A Scout with 1 Complex Precision Enhancer can't detect an other Scout which is not using any Profile Dampeners. Apparently "Haerr" means "Hare"... Shhh. Be vewy vewy quiet, I'm a hunted wabbit!

Sana Rayya WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 927	Posted - 2014.03.05 15:44:00 - [11] - Quote So it'll be difficult for scouts to detect each other, meaning it's a fairly level playing field. Only the Caldari scout will be able to detect other scouts aside from the Gallente, if those scouts aren't using dampeners. Seems fine to me.
Driftward Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 793	Posted - 2014.03.05 16:52:00 - [12] - Quote Sana Rayya wrote: If the precision numbers for scouts were changed, the Caldari Scout would become OP scan-wise. Here's how a full E-WAR advanced Cal Scout (3x complex precision enhancers in highs and 2x complex dampeners in lows, plus cloak) would stack up against full E-WAR proto scouts: 1) vs. Gallente - Would need 1 complex and 1 basic dampener + cloak to remain unscanned, and can't counter-scan. 2) vs. Minmatar - Would always be scanned regardless of fittings; can counter-scan but only if Caldari is uncloaked. 3) vs. Amarr - Would always be scanned regardless of fittings; can't counter-scan. 4) vs. Caldari - Would always be scanned and therefore always counter-scans. So you get a suit that can scan every other suit in the game except the Gal Scout with a cloak and two dampener modules, and the only suit capable of detecting it consistently is another Caldari scout. Doesn't that sound OP to you? It is also gimped in every factor outside of scanning at that point. No more lows so you can't take advantage of your range bonus, only 1 slot for shields (not that you'd be able to fit it with that many complex modules), fitting will be tight to include both a cloak and your weapon of choice unless you only use standard and even then your effectiveness on the field....not so good. Also, just because one suit could see you doesn't mean that it will. The majority of the time each suit does not MAX out their bonus to the extent that you're talking about. Also, Gal scout would only need 1 basic dampener and a cloak. Still not that much to beat out a specialized scout using 3/4 high slots for complex modules. But using your logic why don't we look at the gal scout? They get to use 2 modules (1 std 1 complex) OR 1 std module and a std cloak and can never be picked up on passive scans. Ever. Doesn't that sound OP to you? I think that this would add a new flavor to the game that you go after the scout who can scan you first and then kill his squad. Similar to the repping logi on a heavy. It also allows for scout v scout game play whereas right now it requires the fastest trigger when you round a corner into the other scout who also didn't scan you. Twitch gameplay is stupid. Tactical gameplay is challenging.
ugg reset Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 508	Posted - 2014.03.05 17:22:00 - [13] - Quote That's a lot of CPU/PG for a complex dampener that has a time limit and a cool down. Thr33 is the magic number.
Driftward Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 793	Posted - 2014.03.05 17:31:00 - [14] - Quote ugg reset wrote: That's a lot of CPU/PG for a complex dampener that has a time limit and a cool down. It would be, if that's all they did and if scouts didn't have a massive bonus to them....std cloak is reduced to 40/9 (right around a complex module fitting). Just saying that with the cloak activated you won't be scanning them. Tactically interesting.....but perhaps too good, though not the place for that discussion.
Haerr Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 306	Posted - 2014.03.05 18:26:00 - [15] - Quote With the upcoming changes to medium suits scan precision (mediums goes from 55->50 and logistics goes from 50->45, logistics scan distance has been increased as well 10->15) the scanning game has changed. (FYI logistics and scouts now have the same scan precision.) Here are the suits can make a fit that can detect a medium suit with 2x complex profile dampeners: Amarr Assault: 3x complex precision enhancers. Caldari Assault: 3x complex precision enhancers. Gallente Assault: 3x complex precision enhancers. Minmatar Assault: 3x complex precision enhancers. Amarr Logistics: 3x complex precision enhancers. Caldari Logistics: 3x complex precision enhancers. Gallente Logistics: 3x complex precision enhancers. Minmatar Logistics: 3x complex precision enhancers. Minmatar Scout: 3x complex precision enhancers. Caldari Scout: 1x complex precision enhancers. And here are the suits that can NOT make a fit that can detect a medium suit with 2x complex profile dampeners: Amarr Commando & Heavy & Sentinel: ---N/A--- Caldari Commando & Heavy & Sentinel: ---N/A--- Gallente Commando & Heavy & Sentinel: ---N/A--- Minmatar Commando & Heavy & Sentinel: ---N/A--- Amarr Scout: ---N/A--- Gallente Scout: ---N/A--- Apparently "Haerr" means "Hare"... Shhh. Be vewy vewy quiet, I'm a hunted wabbit!
Driftward Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 794	Posted - 2014.03.05 20:01:00 - [16] - Quote Haerr wrote: With the upcoming changes to medium suits scan precision (mediums goes from 55->50 and logistics goes from 50->45, logistics scan distance has been increased as well 10->15) the scanning game has changed. (FYI logistics and scouts now have the same scan precision.) Source for the changes in mediums suit stats? When did those get released/did they?
Driftward Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 799	Posted - 2014.03.05 21:37:00 - [17] - Quote the fix I proposed is going to make almost as many problems as it "fixes". I'm really not sure how to balance it only that it should work out to this end game: 1) dampening should have an advantage over scanning. scanning gives you a slighlty better advantage as such it should be slightly more costly to acquire 2) nothing should be uncounterable. Doesn't mean that every suit should be able to counter anything, just that there should be a counter whether that be in a specialized racial suit or by gimping a different dropsuit. 3) currently Gal scouts are "uncounterable" in terms of passive scanning. Use of 1 module renders them un-scannable by anyone except a. cal scout running 4 precision enhancers or b. Gal logi using duvolle focussed (which is user-unfriendly with long cooldowns narrow angle) 4) active scanning is taking a big nerf with the snapshot timers and the longer cooldown/narrow angle scans What I think the gameplay should look like 1) Scouts should be un-scannable with 1 dampening module to majority of suits unless there is heavy module use (ie 2 precision enhancers) 2) Medium suits should have a viable shot at dampening to below detection by almost all mediums suits (passive) and some scouts, but should be visible to most scouts especially with precision skill 3) Gal scout should be un-scannable to everything with the addition of 1 module, EXCEPT Cal scout or Gal logi requiring at minimum 2 complex damps +/- cloak 4) Cal scouts should be able to scan most scouts using 1 or 2 precision modules unless scouts are actively dampened using at least 2 dampening modules +/- cloak How that works out to actual scanning stats.....I don't even want to start getting into it. Those are just the way I think passive scanning / eWAR should work.
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 647	Posted - 2014.03.06 15:07:00 - [18] - Quote Adding only 3 dB to Cal scout precision would go a long way into balancing the anti scout business. I already provided feedback in the ideas/discussion section where the devs are likely to see it. PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Youtube
Driftward Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 833	Posted - 2014.03.13 16:20:00 - [19] - Quote Just want to point out that scout precision has been changed to 40 dB as per dev blog for 1.8. Should make things interesting. Thank you Devs.
Haerr Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 352	Posted - 2014.03.13 18:05:00 - [20] - Quote Driftward wrote: Just want to point out that scout precision has been changed to 40 dB as per dev blog for 1.8. Should make things interesting. Thank you Devs. Yeah, thank you Devs for fixing this. Scanning Table for 1.8: LINK

Sana Rayya WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 1294	Posted - 2014.03.13 20:16:00 - [21] - Quote With the new scan precision numbers, an advanced Cal Scout running 3x Complex Precision Enhancers and 2x Complex Dampeners is still unscannable by any suit (aside from itself) and scans mostly every other suit (besides Gallente Scouts with one dampener + cloak or two dampeners and no cloak, or Amarr/Minmatar scouts with three dampeners + cloak or four and no cloak). I'll be trying this to see if it's viable once 1.8 hits :) It will probably be overkill for most pubs though.
Slash Frenzy R 0 N 1 N 29	Posted - 2014.04.09 09:39:00 - [22] - Quote This needs a lift! Really appreciate the work you-¦ve done here! Two questions remain from my perspective: 1) Are the values rounded up? 17,72 -> 18 , 21,35 -> 22 , 21,35 -> 23 2) What does does matching number result in? Cloaker has 17.71 sig and my precisions is 17.71 too. Pick-a-boo?? ****: Wrong thread, SORRY!


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