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Driftward
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Posted - 2014.03.04 19:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've been kicking around some numbers and I've found that passive scanning is profoundly skewed towards the scannee (the person being scanned). Despite having full levels in precision enhancement an unmodded scout will never see any other scout by passives (unless caldari and even then not always).
While that on the surface seems fine, it doesn't actually make for good meta game in terms of fitting and module use. It relegates one module use to mostly obscurity and means that profile dampeners are of limited use as well (to most scouts with levels in racial scouts and all scouts in 1.8).
In order to truly see the diversity in game play and increase the importance of using various eWAR modules (ie range extenders/precision mods/dampeners) I think that the base precision stats need to be tweaked for scouts. This would provide a counter for the current passive scan invisibility and increase diversity in fitting and game play.
This would also be a good thing for those of you medium/heavy frames that fear the coming of the cloaked scout. It would mean that to be truly stealthy scouts might sacrifice more of their slots to doing that task instead of tank or damage mods to kill you from behind.
Without further ado, MATH. This assumes full skills for scouts and passive electronic skills.
Current (with 1.8 stats)
____Gal Scout____I____Cal Scout_____I____Generic Scout precision___
0 damp = 23.6 dB__I__0 prec = 30.4 dB__I__0 prec/damp = 40.5 / 31.5 dB
1 damp = 17.7 dB__I__1 prec = 24.3 dB__I__1 prec/damp = 32.4 / 23.6 dB
2 damp = 13.3 dB__I__2 prec = 20.1 dB__I__2 prec/damp = 26.8 / 17.7 dB
Proposed (equivalent base profile stats for precision and dampening ie 35 dB base)
____Gal Scout____I____Cal Scout_____I____Generic Scout precision___
0 damp = 23.6 dB__I__0 prec = 23.6 dB__I__0 prec/damp = 31.5 / 31.5 dB
1 damp = 17.7 dB__I__1 prec = 18.9 dB__I__1 prec/damp = 25.2 / 23.6 dB
2 damp = 13.3 dB__I__2 prec = 15.6 dB__I__2 prec/damp = 20.8 / 17.7 dB
Also, note that the cloaking bonus to scan profile currently favors the scannee tremendously. It acts essentially as an additional complex dampener on top of whatever a scout would stack in their modules.
I want to especially point out the asymmetry in the generic scout profile vs. precision comparison. At almost no point is it worthwhile with the current stats to run precision enhancers for non-caldari scouts (except for the fringe case of medium suits running dampeners which is still quite uncommon).
I also want to point out the extent of the bonus for caldari scouts. They can, with current stats, detect generic scouts running undampened. However, with the addition of 1 basic dampener, generic scouts are undetectable without modules on the caldari scout. And with the use of 1 complex precision enhancer all the other scout just need 1 complex dampener to beat them. For a specialized suit this seems extraordinarily backwards.
It should take fewer modules to be effective within your specialty than it should take to counter that specialty suit.
Also, without making scan precision and dampening somewhat equivalent there will be no counter to gal scouts in terms of passive scanning (or active for that matter without incredibly expensive and limiting fitting choices to detect them while they use only 1 module)
I really like the way the rest of the scout stats are stacking up. I also think that scan profile and dampening is in a good spot numbers wise. I just believe that the precision numbers need to be tweaked as well to bring them in line with 1.8 for all the reasons I discussed above. |
Driftward
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Posted - 2014.03.05 16:52:00 -
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Sana Rayya wrote:If the precision numbers for scouts were changed, the Caldari Scout would become OP scan-wise. Here's how a full E-WAR advanced Cal Scout (3x complex precision enhancers in highs and 2x complex dampeners in lows, plus cloak) would stack up against full E-WAR proto scouts:
1) vs. Gallente - Would need 1 complex and 1 basic dampener + cloak to remain unscanned, and can't counter-scan.
2) vs. Minmatar - Would always be scanned regardless of fittings; can counter-scan but only if Caldari is uncloaked.
3) vs. Amarr - Would always be scanned regardless of fittings; can't counter-scan.
4) vs. Caldari - Would always be scanned and therefore always counter-scans.
So you get a suit that can scan every other suit in the game except the Gal Scout with a cloak and two dampener modules, and the only suit capable of detecting it consistently is another Caldari scout. Doesn't that sound OP to you?
It is also gimped in every factor outside of scanning at that point. No more lows so you can't take advantage of your range bonus, only 1 slot for shields (not that you'd be able to fit it with that many complex modules), fitting will be tight to include both a cloak and your weapon of choice unless you only use standard and even then your effectiveness on the field....not so good.
Also, just because one suit *could* see you doesn't mean that it will. The majority of the time each suit does not MAX out their bonus to the extent that you're talking about. Also, Gal scout would only need 1 basic dampener and a cloak. Still not that much to beat out a specialized scout using 3/4 high slots for complex modules.
But using your logic why don't we look at the gal scout? They get to use 2 modules (1 std 1 complex) OR 1 std module and a std cloak and can never be picked up on passive scans. Ever. Doesn't that sound OP to you?
I think that this would add a new flavor to the game that you go after the scout who can scan you first and then kill his squad. Similar to the repping logi on a heavy. It also allows for scout v scout game play whereas right now it requires the fastest trigger when you round a corner into the other scout who also didn't scan you. Twitch gameplay is stupid. Tactical gameplay is challenging. |
Driftward
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Posted - 2014.03.05 17:31:00 -
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ugg reset wrote:That's a lot of CPU/PG for a complex dampener that has a time limit and a cool down.
It would be, if that's all they did and if scouts didn't have a massive bonus to them....std cloak is reduced to 40/9 (right around a complex module fitting).
Just saying that with the cloak activated you won't be scanning them. Tactically interesting.....but perhaps too good, though not the place for that discussion. |
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Posted - 2014.03.05 20:01:00 -
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Haerr wrote:With the upcoming changes to medium suits scan precision (mediums goes from 55->50 and logistics goes from 50->45, logistics scan distance has been increased as well 10->15) the scanning game has changed. (FYI logistics and scouts now have the same scan precision.)
Source for the changes in mediums suit stats? When did those get released/did they? |
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Posted - 2014.03.05 21:37:00 -
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the fix I proposed is going to make almost as many problems as it "fixes". I'm really not sure how to balance it only that it should work out to this end game:
1) dampening should have an advantage over scanning. scanning gives you a slighlty better advantage as such it should be slightly more costly to acquire
2) nothing should be uncounterable. Doesn't mean that every suit should be able to counter anything, just that there should be a counter whether that be in a specialized racial suit or by gimping a different dropsuit.
3) currently Gal scouts are "uncounterable" in terms of passive scanning. Use of 1 module renders them un-scannable by anyone except a. cal scout running 4 precision enhancers or b. Gal logi using duvolle focussed (which is user-unfriendly with long cooldowns narrow angle)
4) active scanning is taking a big nerf with the snapshot timers and the longer cooldown/narrow angle scans
What I think the gameplay should look like
1) Scouts should be un-scannable with 1 dampening module to majority of suits unless there is heavy module use (ie 2 precision enhancers)
2) Medium suits should have a viable shot at dampening to below detection by almost all mediums suits (passive) and some scouts, but should be visible to most scouts especially with precision skill
3) Gal scout should be un-scannable to everything with the addition of 1 module, EXCEPT Cal scout or Gal logi requiring at minimum 2 complex damps +/- cloak
4) Cal scouts should be able to scan most scouts using 1 or 2 precision modules unless scouts are actively dampened using at least 2 dampening modules +/- cloak
How that works out to actual scanning stats.....I don't even want to start getting into it.
Those are just the way I think passive scanning / eWAR should work. |
Driftward
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Posted - 2014.03.13 16:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
Just want to point out that scout precision has been changed to 40 dB as per dev blog for 1.8.
Should make things interesting. Thank you Devs. |
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