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abarkrishna
WarRavens
298
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Posted - 2014.02.13 16:42:00 -
[61] - Quote
They nerfed the range because of the invisible swarms pre 1.7 The draw distance still exists so they can not buff range. Thats why a damage buff is needed for swarms. Besides to get as close as you currently have to to use swarms your easily gunned down by blasters.
Oh hey there is a swarmer let me just drive towards him and not activate my hardener because my passive repps will heal me before he gets another shot off.
No you kill this blueberry hacking the CRU we are camping. I already killed the last 2.
When will they learn!
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
The Containment Unit
380
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Posted - 2014.02.13 16:43:00 -
[62] - Quote
If you kill the range of blasters then you have to do the same for railguns .. it's already getting to the point where they dominate the playing field.
Future Caldari Heavy so watch out for this Sumo Shinobi with a Caldari HMG .
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Smooth Assassin
Stardust Incorporation
IMMORTAL REGIME
836
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Posted - 2014.02.13 16:43:00 -
[63] - Quote
abarkrishna wrote:It is getting pretty effing ridiculous. 1.7 has been out for 2 months and not a word has been uttered about what your doing to fix tanks.
How about some input?
Suggestions:
Increase the cost. It is not balanced when a tank is cheaper than a proto suit with 5 times the HP, Movement speed, armor regen,and overall effectiveness
Make armor reppers an active module again instead of passive.
Nerf/ get rid of large blasters
Limitations on how many active tanks are on one team. 8 tanks in a round on one team is way to many.
They don't know... they're game testers leave this game cos it's stupid and they don't even play it so they don't know...
Assassination is my thing.
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Ryme Intrinseca
Fatal Absolution
665
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Posted - 2014.02.13 16:46:00 -
[64] - Quote
The Attorney General wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote:
I don't think blasters themselves are a problem. They only seem like a problem now because you can ALWAYS get them in range, as there is no effective AV threat.
Easy solution: buff AV. Maybe +30% damage for forges and +50% damage plus a range increase for swarms. That way blasters will remain devastating but the challenge will be to get them in range.
That is just overkill. The FG needs no more damage. If you want to increase its DPS you do it by ROF. Otherwise there is no point having LAVs and dropships. Swarms do not need a buff to stronger than 1.6 levels. Are you drunk? Swarms should get EITHER a damage buff to make them a keep away weapon, or range to make them a harassing killer. You don't give them both and reward scrubs for letting a weapon do the work for them. Or, instead of all that, and really making things awkard for every other class, how about you just chop 30% off the range of the blaster tank? No one can really explain why the blaster got such a range buff in 1.7, it did not need it.
A RoF increase for forge would be okay I guess, provided it was big enough. I don't have any SP in swarms, but anyone can see that they need a major buff. They lost >50% of both range and damage, I don't think it's unreasonable to get some of that back.
The basic point is that AV needs to be better at AV than a rail tank is. AV is vulnerable to everything - every tank and every infantry unit. A rail tank is only vulnerable to a small minority of units on the field. For AV to be at all viable, it needs to do the one thing it does well (AV) better than anything else. |
Ryme Intrinseca
Fatal Absolution
665
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Posted - 2014.02.13 16:55:00 -
[65] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote:abarkrishna wrote:There is no way to balance large blasters. If you nerf them they will be useless against tanks. If you do not nerf it they will be way to OP against infantry like we have currently. There is no middle ground.
I am open to the idea but I have yet to hear an intelligent idea regarding a good way to nerf them.
I don't think blasters themselves are a problem. They only seem like a problem now because you can ALWAYS get them in range, as there is no effective AV threat. Easy solution: buff AV. Maybe +30% damage for forges and +50% damage plus a range increase for swarms. That way blasters will remain devastating but the challenge will be to get them in range. 1.7 all over again but the range increase I can back but this just shows that the REAL problem is that you are mad community or rather those who feel so , that you just can't instasolo a tank anymore without having to work for it .. I just played a game where I almost solo'd a tank basic FG.
The very fact you tell a story about ALMOST killing a tank with a forge is telling. I just played a game where I ACTUALLY soloed 40 infantry, and no one thinks that's a story worth telling, nor should they.
Why should a tanker, who is after all only one player, the same as an infantryman is, get accorded such exalted status that almost killing them is considered a feat? Especially when their tank costs less than a proto infantry fit, and a small fraction of the SP? |
KenKaniff69
Fatal Absolution
2089
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Posted - 2014.02.13 16:57:00 -
[66] - Quote
Ryme Intrinseca wrote:
The basic point is that AV needs to be better at AV than a rail tank is. AV is vulnerable to everything - every tank and every infantry unit. A rail tank is only vulnerable to a small minority of units on the field. For AV to be at all viable, it needs to do the one thing it does well (AV) better than anything else.
That's wrong. AV should not be soloing tanks like it did in 1.6. One guy on a tower could deny vehicles access to half the map. Right now a forge is perfectly balanced in that regard. 300m range, decent damage, reasonable clip size.
I refuse to comment on swarms because they are for scrubs. Learn to aim.
So about those vehicle locks...
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Ryme Intrinseca
Fatal Absolution
667
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Posted - 2014.02.13 17:05:00 -
[67] - Quote
KenKaniff69 wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote:
The basic point is that AV needs to be better at AV than a rail tank is. AV is vulnerable to everything - every tank and every infantry unit. A rail tank is only vulnerable to a small minority of units on the field. For AV to be at all viable, it needs to do the one thing it does well (AV) better than anything else.
That's wrong. AV should not be soloing tanks like it did in 1.6. One guy on a tower could deny vehicles access to half the map. Right now a forge is perfectly balanced in that regard. 300m range, decent damage, reasonable clip size. I refuse to comment on swarms because they are for scrubs. Learn to aim.
That's a problem with towers, not AV. Fences are the solution.
I've never used swarms, but if they're going to be in the game, they need to be a viable threat, which they really are not now.
Look at it like this. ANY role should have risk and reward. The problem with 1.6 tower forging is the same as the problem with 1.7 tanks - it's all reward and no risk.
And before anyone says '1.7 tanking IS HARD!!!!111', explain to me Duna's thousands of monthly kills at 88 KDR. |
The Attorney General
1945
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Posted - 2014.02.13 17:08:00 -
[68] - Quote
Ryme Intrinseca wrote:
And before anyone says '1.7 tanking IS HARD!!!!111', explain to me Duna's thousands of monthly kills at 88 KDR.
Ambush stomping. Plus, he runs away when the tank gets popped.
If they just removed vehicles from Ambush Duna would quit the game and many noobs would still be playing.
Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
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Ryme Intrinseca
Fatal Absolution
668
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Posted - 2014.02.13 17:15:00 -
[69] - Quote
The Attorney General wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote:
And before anyone says '1.7 tanking IS HARD!!!!111', explain to me Duna's thousands of monthly kills at 88 KDR.
Ambush stomping. Plus, he runs away when the tank gets popped. If they just removed vehicles from Ambush Duna would quit the game and many noobs would still be playing.
That's true, but even so, the best ambush stomping infantry can't get above about 8 or 9 KDR. What's more likely:
1. Duna is ten times better than the best pubstomping infantryman.
or
2. Tanks are OP.
I know where my money is. |
Altina McAlterson
Pure Innocence.
EoN.
853
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Posted - 2014.02.13 17:20:00 -
[70] - Quote
Ryme Intrinseca wrote:
And before anyone says '1.7 tanking IS HARD!!!!111', explain to me Duna's thousands of monthly kills at 88 KDR.
Using scrubby tactics to kill scrubby players in a scrubby fashion that relies purely on scrubbery. I care about Duna and his corp about as mush as I care about the person at the top of the all time KDR board.
Good Advice
Grey 17 should have stayed missing.
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Neo Rinzler
Commando Perkone
Caldari State
32
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Posted - 2014.02.13 18:13:00 -
[71] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:straya fox wrote:I think stacking hardeners lies at the heart of a lot of issues with tanks, there are no 'windows of opportunity' with a triple or double hardened tank. They can still be destroyed ... it depends on the experience of the driver v.s the experience of the attacker .. basic. No one should be able to solo a tank unless the driver is a glutton for punishment or is just inexperienced and that's where the problem lies at for most and I would even go as far as saying that jihad jeeps shouldn't work either with basic RE's .. check the stats and the math doesn't equate the outcome if it's less than 5 on a jeep and evenmoreso if hardners are active. I'm suprised more tankers are not bringing that to attention but they sure do get alot of slack from the community and there constant nerf quest.
Why not ?
In that case Tanks shouldn't be able to Kill Infantry solo either then !
It should take teamwork from Tankers to kill 1 infantryman ....
Sound familiar ? Yep .. it's the Tanker argument switched around
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
4459
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Posted - 2014.02.13 18:20:00 -
[72] - Quote
Ryme Intrinseca wrote:The Attorney General wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote:
And before anyone says '1.7 tanking IS HARD!!!!111', explain to me Duna's thousands of monthly kills at 88 KDR.
Ambush stomping. Plus, he runs away when the tank gets popped. If they just removed vehicles from Ambush Duna would quit the game and many noobs would still be playing. That's true, but even so, the best ambush stomping infantry can't get above about 8 or 9 KDR. What's more likely: 1. Duna is ten times better than the best pubstomping infantryman. or 2. Tanks are OP. I know where my money is.
You forgot option 3.
Tanks aren't OP in a fair and balanced setting, but random pub players suck at countering them, so they look far more OP than any infantry options because those can be more effectively countered 1 vs. 1.
Forge Guns are viable AV weapons. Plasma Cannons are bordering on almost viable. Swarm Launchers can barely scratch armour tanks when they're meant to be a viable threat to them, and can do literally nothing of value against shield tanks which should at least suffer some negative repercussions from being fired on by an ANTI-VEHICLE WEAPON.
Tanks aren't OP, but most AV needs a buff. |
Altina McAlterson
Pure Innocence.
EoN.
853
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Posted - 2014.02.13 18:43:00 -
[73] - Quote
Tanks are not OP at all. Like the poster above said people just suck at countering tanks. Run some spambush with 3 proto forges in a squad and then come back and tell me tanks are OP.
Although swarms are another story entirely. They need major work.
Good Advice
Grey 17 should have stayed missing.
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Debacle Nano
BurgezzE.T.F
General Tso's Alliance
656
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Posted - 2014.02.13 18:48:00 -
[74] - Quote
You know what would solve the tank problem?
Webifiers.
Closed beta anyone?
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
1954
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Posted - 2014.02.13 20:22:00 -
[75] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote:The Attorney General wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote:
And before anyone says '1.7 tanking IS HARD!!!!111', explain to me Duna's thousands of monthly kills at 88 KDR.
Ambush stomping. Plus, he runs away when the tank gets popped. If they just removed vehicles from Ambush Duna would quit the game and many noobs would still be playing. That's true, but even so, the best ambush stomping infantry can't get above about 8 or 9 KDR. What's more likely: 1. Duna is ten times better than the best pubstomping infantryman. or 2. Tanks are OP. I know where my money is. You forgot option 3. Tanks aren't OP in a fair and balanced setting, but random pub players suck at countering them, so they look far more OP than any infantry options because those can be more effectively countered 1 vs. 1. Forge Guns are viable AV weapons. Plasma Cannons are bordering on almost viable. Swarm Launchers can barely scratch armour tanks when they're meant to be a viable threat to them, and can do literally nothing of value against shield tanks which should at least suffer some negative repercussions from being fired on by an ANTI-VEHICLE WEAPON. Tanks aren't OP, but most AV needs a buff.
Whats fair amd balanced setting?
Where one MLT tank requires 2-3proto forges in a high up position, with infantry protection?
Spkr4thedead: Me > AV
This is why tanks are unbalanced
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.
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The Attorney General
1949
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Posted - 2014.02.13 20:49:00 -
[76] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:
Whats fair amd balanced setting?
Where one MLT tank requires 2-3proto forges in a high up position, with infantry protection?
They don't need infantry protection up high, and 3 forges will keep ALL vehicles away, not just one tank.
Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
4632
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Posted - 2014.02.13 20:51:00 -
[77] - Quote
Altina McAlterson wrote:Tanks are not OP at all. Like the poster above said people just suck at countering tanks. Run some spambush with 3 proto forges in a squad and then come back and tell me tanks are OP.
Although swarms are another story entirely. They need major work.
3 Peple just to destroy my tank? That's a problem.
And why are you so intent on giving out bad advice? If you run an AV squad, you'll get rinsed by the hostile infantry.
Run a Particle Cannon, and you won't need to worry about them.
That's what you should be telling players. If this is going to be a tank-centric game, then at least tell people to play properly.
Want to know how to make a strike-through?
[s[Example[/s]
Now go my Forum Warriors. Use this new weapon for glory!
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
4632
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Posted - 2014.02.13 20:59:00 -
[78] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:
You forgot option 3.
Tanks aren't OP in a fair and balanced setting, but random pub players suck at countering them, so they look far more OP than any infantry options because those can be more effectively countered 1 vs. 1.
Forge Guns are viable AV weapons. Plasma Cannons are bordering on almost viable. Swarm Launchers can barely scratch armour tanks when they're meant to be a viable threat to them, and can do literally nothing of value against shield tanks which should at least suffer some negative repercussions from being fired on by an ANTI-VEHICLE WEAPON.
Tanks aren't OP, but most AV needs a buff.
You do realize that this is circular right?
X isn't OP, the thing that allows X to be balanced is simply UP, which makes X OP in the first place.
So it's either "The user suck" or "The user's gear sucks." Saying both is a double negative.
Want to know how to make a strike-through?
[s[Example[/s]
Now go my Forum Warriors. Use this new weapon for glory!
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
4634
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Posted - 2014.02.13 21:02:00 -
[79] - Quote
The Attorney General wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:
Whats fair amd balanced setting?
Where one MLT tank requires 2-3proto forges in a high up position, with infantry protection?
They don't need infantry protection up high, and 3 forges will keep ALL vehicles away, not just one tank.
They'll still need other infantry for resupplying and reps when the enemy team fields a Sniper.
Want to know how to make a strike-through?
[s[Example[/s]
Now go my Forum Warriors. Use this new weapon for glory!
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Alternate Insano
SUICIDE SPITE SQUAD
39
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Posted - 2014.02.13 21:22:00 -
[80] - Quote
Tanks should be the kings of a battlefield. That's why the US Army has the Javelin AV launcher. It can one shot a T72.
But none of the imaginary companies of DUST, while capable of building interstellar space craft, can make a decent anti tank rocket? |
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Altina McAlterson
Pure Innocence.
EoN.
853
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Posted - 2014.02.13 21:34:00 -
[81] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Altina McAlterson wrote:Tanks are not OP at all. Like the poster above said people just suck at countering tanks. Run some spambush with 3 proto forges in a squad and then come back and tell me tanks are OP.
Although swarms are another story entirely. They need major work. 3 Peple just to destroy my tank? That's a problem. And why are you so intent on giving out bad advice? If you run an AV squad, you'll get rinsed by the hostile infantry. Run a Particle Cannon, and you won't need to worry about them. That's what you should be telling players. If this is going to be a tank-centric game, then at least tell people to play properly.
I have to admit you almost got me with this one. I had already started typing a point by point rebuttal when I realized your intention is to generally spew nonsense at every chance and your comments were not intended for serious discussion. Well played.
Good Advice
Grey 17 should have stayed missing.
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The Attorney General
1951
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Posted - 2014.02.13 22:07:00 -
[82] - Quote
Atiim wrote:The Attorney General wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:
Whats fair amd balanced setting?
Where one MLT tank requires 2-3proto forges in a high up position, with infantry protection?
They don't need infantry protection up high, and 3 forges will keep ALL vehicles away, not just one tank. They'll still need other infantry for resupplying and reps when the enemy team fields a Sniper.
LOL, Atiim wants to pretend that he spent SP on multiple things, but that no one else does.
Spawn in as a logi, bring links and hives, throw your useless corpse off the rooftop and spawn with the forge. One man in a fat suit with lots of reps and resupply for all his friends.
Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
4646
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Posted - 2014.02.13 22:11:00 -
[83] - Quote
The Attorney General wrote:LOL, Atiim wants to pretend that he spent SP on multiple things, but that no one else does.
Spawn in as a logi, bring links and hives, throw your useless corpse off the rooftop and spawn with the forge. One man in a fat suit with lots of reps and resupply for all his friends. An even match can last a very long time, and your hives might run out; and according to you it's not just one man in a fat suit.
It's 3.
Want to know how to make a strike-through?
[s[Example[/s]
Now go my Forum Warriors. Use this new weapon for glory!
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The Attorney General
1951
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Posted - 2014.02.13 22:13:00 -
[84] - Quote
Atiim wrote:An even match can last a very long time, and your hives might run out; and according to you it's not just one man in a fat suit.
It's 3.
And one of them can do the hives next time, or one guy can be greedy for WP.
You still haven't made a point.
Oh thats right, you just troll because you can't AV or tank.
Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
Negative-Feedback
1011
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Posted - 2014.02.13 22:24:00 -
[85] - Quote
abarkrishna wrote:It is getting pretty effing ridiculous. 1.7 has been out for 2 months and not a word has been uttered about what your doing to fix tanks.
How about some input?
Suggestions:
Increase the cost. It is not balanced when a tank is cheaper than a proto suit with 5 times the HP, Movement speed, armor regen,and overall effectiveness
Make armor reppers an active module again instead of passive.
Nerf/ get rid of large blasters
Limitations on how many active tanks are on one team. 8 tanks in a round on one team is way to many.
Isk balancing is still the worst balancing.
Sure, it would alleviate the worst tank spam slightly (currently it is completely trivial to call in tanks - but so will it be in the future for some even with higher prices)
You have to be careful with hard limits on tanks.
Better suggestiion is to make calling in Nth tank a loooong time - like 1-2mins. That'll deal with that issue the soft way.
Thread about it here.
Masochism L5.
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Operative 1171 Aajli
Bragian Order
Amarr Empire
1211
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Posted - 2014.02.14 00:14:00 -
[86] - Quote
Justicar Karnellia wrote:abarkrishna wrote:There is no way to balance large blasters. If you nerf them they will be useless against tanks. If you do not nerf it they will be way to OP against infantry like we have currently. There is no middle ground.
I am open to the idea but I have yet to hear an intelligent idea regarding a good way to nerf them.
To be clear I am only speaking about large blasters. Small blasters can stay the way they are. I agree, you have to be careful. I'd say without touching damage the only other things you can touch are: 1) dispersion (already mentioned 2) ammo counts - currently very high... if you've ever run a tank you quickly understand how ammo expansion packs are never used. 3) heat buildup
RoF. That is all that would make a difference. RoF.
Rommel, you magnificent bastard, I read your book!
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Rusty Shallows
961
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Posted - 2014.02.14 00:24:00 -
[87] - Quote
Altina McAlterson wrote:Atiim wrote:Altina McAlterson wrote:Tanks are not OP at all. Like the poster above said people just suck at countering tanks. Run some spambush with 3 proto forges in a squad and then come back and tell me tanks are OP.
Although swarms are another story entirely. They need major work. 3 Peple just to destroy my tank? That's a problem. And why are you so intent on giving out bad advice? If you run an AV squad, you'll get rinsed by the hostile infantry. Run a Particle Cannon, and you won't need to worry about them. That's what you should be telling players. If this is going to be a tank-centric game, then at least tell people to play properly. I have to admit you almost got me with this one. I had already started typing a point by point rebuttal when I realized your intention is to generally spew nonsense at every chance and your comments were not intended for serious discussion. Well played.
The reason you didn't do a point by point rebuttal is because Atiim got you. Calling b###s##t or staying quiet were your only options at this point. Personally I would have stayed quiet and let readers make up their own minds.
Here, have some candy and a Like. :-)
Forums > Game
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Horizen Kenpachi
Kenpachi's Castle
161
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Posted - 2014.02.14 00:35:00 -
[88] - Quote
My gunniloggggeeeee says tanks are fine theres nothing planning and knowing ur enemy cant fix i have 1.5 mill sp in vehicles and theres nothing i cant counter except stupidity
Hit me with your nerf bat.
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Aeon Amadi
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
4884
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Posted - 2014.02.14 00:54:00 -
[89] - Quote
The Attorney General wrote:Atiim wrote:The Attorney General wrote:This is just a thread of bads having a pity party. Kinda reminds me of your pre 1.7 posts. Nice try, but you can go back to the start of uprising, where I am saying that tanks are fine, and that the only major change needs to be rendering fixes. Unlike you, I actually adapted, learned to thrive and then made posts. Also, I didn't have the experience of using a crutch like all the pre-uprising tankers did, so I was not spoiled by being OP. You were, and you can't help but long for the days when your OP weapon that did the work for you made you feel strong. Poor baby.
Went ahead and highlighted some notable aspects of this post to distinguish the difference between constructive criticism and accusation with some ad hominem (if, such allegations are true). Mostly because this argument is lulzy to me 
Useful Links
//forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588
//forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
4465
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Posted - 2014.02.14 06:17:00 -
[90] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:You forgot option 3.
Tanks aren't OP in a fair and balanced setting, but random pub players suck at countering them, so they look far more OP than any infantry options because those can be more effectively countered 1 vs. 1.
Forge Guns are viable AV weapons. Plasma Cannons are bordering on almost viable. Swarm Launchers can barely scratch armour tanks when they're meant to be a viable threat to them, and can do literally nothing of value against shield tanks which should at least suffer some negative repercussions from being fired on by an ANTI-VEHICLE WEAPON.
Tanks aren't OP, but most AV needs a buff. Whats fair amd balanced setting? Where one MLT tank requires 2-3proto forges in a high up position, with infantry protection?
You don't need infantry protection against a tank. You need infantry protection against infantry. If you're talking about infantry protection, you're not trying to counter the tank, but a COORDINATED EFFORT THAT INCLUDES A TANK. These are two very different scenarios.
Also, the job of AV shouldn't be ALWAYS about "kill tank, move to next" - simply DENYING the tank value is a more practical approach, and can be achieved with only 1 or 2 Forge Gunners (depending on the skills/equipment of both sides). The problem here is that the game doesn't reward players for vehicle damage like it did in beta (removed because WP farming and orbitals, I believe). When vehicle damage WP comes back, a proper AV area denial role will be effective AND rewarding enough to be worth considering.
Atiim wrote:You do realize that this is circular right?
X isn't OP, the thing that allows X to be balanced is simply UP, which makes X OP in the first place.
So it's either "The user suck" or "The user's gear sucks." Saying both is a double negative.
People using Forge Guns and failing are usually using them wrong. People using Light AV weapons are using underpowered weapons that need a buff to be viable in their intended role. AV being underpowered IS NOT the same as vehicles being overpowered. Fixing one requires something to be nerfed, fixing the other requires something to be buffed. They're exact OPPOSITE problems with exact opposite solutions.
If something has no viable counter, it's OP. If something has a viable counter that doesn't work properly, the counter is UP, and the appearance of OP-ness is an illusion based on a completely different flaw. If someone gave you a cheap counterfeit fire-resistant suit, and you walked through a fire and got burned, it was because the suit was cheap junk, not because the fire was too hot. The fire worked as intended, the counter to it didn't.
Tanks work (for the most part) as intended. AV doesn't. The problem is with AV, not with tanks, and AV is what needs fixing, not tanks.
I'm not going to say tanks are perfect, having them move faster than LAVs is completely insane and I have no idea who thought that was anything other than utterly ridiculous. They need slowing down, and ONE turret type needs to be looked at seriously for ways to balance it properly.
Railguns need to be balanced by competent map design, not more nerfs. Blasters are the only weapon with a legitimate argument for their OP-ness with tanks. There's argument that they're the anti-infantry turret, but by that argument, they're WAAAAY too effective against other vehicles to qualify as anti-infantry, and should suffer a "small arms" penalty like other anti-infantry weapons do against vehicles. The other argument is that they're "short ranged" and are only useful in close. Considering the range at which they're useful against both vehicles and other infantry is easily well into infantry's long range, they need a range nerf (along with the aforementioned HAV speed nerf to a vaguely sensible level) before they're filling a short range niche instead of ALWAYS being "close" to EVERYTHING and killing because "you should have stayed further away". |
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