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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2478
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Posted - 2014.02.13 16:37:00 -
[31] - Quote
Quote:Minmatar Bonus - 2% bonus to dropsuit sprint speed Caldari Bonus - 5% bonus to shield recharge delay Gallente Bonus - 2% bonus to armor plating Amarr Bonus - 5% bonus to laser weapon heat build up I like these bonuses because they play to the strengths of the suits.
I think the 1% damage bonus should be a class bonus rather than a racial bonus, and apply to all weapons so as not to pigeonhole people into one weapon. The currently proposed racial bonuses I am ok with because they are a situational bonus rather than a straight DPS bonus. Meaning, that you don't get penalized too much for choosing not to use the bonus.
While I am sympathetic to KevallGÇÖs point about the effect on TTK, CCP are making adjustments to TTK to make it less of an issue. I am sure the Infantry Rifle nerf and other changes can be adjusted to accommodate a 5% damage buff to Assualt suits. After all, it would essentially be balancing Assautl Suits against Slayer Logi, which can fit more damage mods.
Fox Gaden: DUST Wall of Fame, 2014
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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance
1161
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Posted - 2014.02.13 17:02:00 -
[32] - Quote
Kevall Longstride wrote:Having two racial bonuses is not a good idea at the moment and once again I think that wishing is father of the thought.
Having a role bonus common to all suits in a role plus 1 racial bonus is easier to understand and more importantly to balance. And with the TTK problems we have, the last thing we need right now is a DPS increase across a whole role.
Beside having two racial bonuses is likely to the purview of the pirate faction suits when they arrive.
I appreciate the condsideration of TTK but that is why I am advocating a DPS reduction in weapons to begin with. This is simply about the suits themselves and, with the reduction of DPS across weapons, this becomes fair and gives the assault class a reason to exist when compared to logistics.
As far as dual bonuses. I find that this will not hinder any possible pirate faction suits that come about. Many T2 ships in EVE have dual bonuses with one being racial and one being role specific so this is not divergent from that.
Pirate faction ships have their bonuses based on proficiency in two racial classes and a bonus from the pirate faction itself which, again, would not be outdone by the assault bonuses I proposed if applied to the suits.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Killar-12
The Corporate Raiders Top Men.
2325
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Posted - 2014.02.13 22:19:00 -
[33] - Quote
Canari Elphus wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:Canari Elphus wrote: Stuff You make a strong argument Canari Elphus. There are a few details I might dispute, but the overall argument is solid. So were you thinking a 2% per level damage bonus for Assault suits? I like the flavour of the current racial assault suit bonuses, but I agree they are probably not significant enough for someone to pick an Assault suit over a logi suit. I mean when Minmitar Assault had the bonus to sidearm clip size there were some of us using SMG as primary weapon on those suits, but most did not bother. It added flavour, but was not an important enough bonus to make you feel like you had to take advantage of it. These bonuses feel the same way. But your suggested damage bonus for Assault suits is different. People who want to do max damage will go for the assault suit. Normally I donGÇÖt like straight damage bonuses, but in this case, to define Assault as GÇ£the Damage classGÇ¥, I think the simple and obvious approach might be best. I think 2% per level, essentially a built in Complex Damage mod at max level, would be the way to go. Even if they kept all the currently proposed bonuses and just added a second class bonus of 1% damage per level, that might be enough. It would only be the equivalent of an Enhanced Damage mod, but without a stacking penalty. Of course Weapon damage would have to be reduced as you say, and the effect this would have on Scout suits would have to be looked at as well. I think a mixed bonus would be appropriate for assaults. One for the role and one for the racial. These are a couple spitball ideas: Minmitar: Assault Suit Bonus - 1% damage to projectile and explosive weapons Minmatar Bonus - 2% bonus to dropsuit sprint speed Caldari: Assault Suit Bonus - 1% damage to hybrid weapons (EVE bonus can be used for blasters and rails) Caldari Bonus - 5% bonus to shield recharge delay Gallente: Assault Suit Bonus - 1% damage to hybrid weapons Gallente Bonus - 2% bonus to armor plating Amarr: Assault Suit Bonus - 1% damage to laser weapons Amarr Bonus - 5% bonus to laser weapon heat build up I agree that scouts will need to have their bonuses looked at but the total 5% damage bonus is not enough to make them useless. Their new cloaking ability will allow them to get the drop on other suits which could more than make up for the damage advantage of assaults. This is why I wish we had access to private test servers to test these adjustments. Hmm 1 I'd like a "Combat" suit like attack and combat frigs just an assault varient oriented on tanking
2 I'd just like a reduction to Kick while ADS for cal gear, increasing the effective DPS of Snipers and RRs by improving accuaracy
3 Gals just need a ever so slight Dam/RoF bonus
Listen
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
742
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Posted - 2014.02.14 01:50:00 -
[34] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Again...the reload time reduction is significant but I can get the exact same stats plus damage buff with the CalCommando. Can you think of a bonus that could be applied to Rail weapons that would be equivalent to the other bonuses other than reload speed? I mean without changed all the bonuses to something completely different?
Good question...i've seen several possible solutions and here are a few: 1) decreased spool time for rail tech weapons. Roughly, I think CCP will probably increase spool time by X % and my proposal would be to have rail tech (light and sidearm) have a reduction of spool time per level so that it's roughly, perhaps a sliver more, than it is now.
This is very much inline with the Amarr and Minmatar bonuses that are proposed and spool reduction is the only weapon drawback i'm aware of that currently doesn't have an SP sink to offset it somewhere.
2) 5% Reduction in recoil per level would be a pretty solid bonus. Even if the bonus was only applied in ADS that would still be fairly solid.
3) I think some of the defensive perks suggested to lowering recharge delay are workable but I'm not in favor of those for the assault suits as the bonuses probably need to be a bit more offensive in nature I think.
4) One slightly different approach would be a mild increase in range and ADS zoom paired together. Say a 2% increase in Optimal and effective range per level and 3% ADS zoom per level.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
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SILENTSAM 69
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
645
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Posted - 2014.02.14 05:31:00 -
[35] - Quote
Suit bonuses are a trivial issue. Everyone who thinks balance and all these minor things matter are kidding themselves. All that matters is actual MMO content being added tot he game. PVE mode, player market, all the things talked about before turning DUST into a simple lobby shooter. |
Soraya Xel
The Corporate Raiders Top Men.
1489
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Posted - 2014.02.14 05:45:00 -
[36] - Quote
SILENTSAM 69 wrote:Suit bonuses are a trivial issue. Everyone who thinks balance and all these minor things matter are kidding themselves. All that matters is actual MMO content being added tot he game. PVE mode, player market, all the things talked about before turning DUST into a simple lobby shooter.
True, though I still feel we should answer the question if asked. As CCP will expect the CPM to know about these things.
I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
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SILENTSAM 69
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
646
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Posted - 2014.02.14 06:23:00 -
[37] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:SILENTSAM 69 wrote:Suit bonuses are a trivial issue. Everyone who thinks balance and all these minor things matter are kidding themselves. All that matters is actual MMO content being added tot he game. PVE mode, player market, all the things talked about before turning DUST into a simple lobby shooter. True, though I still feel we should answer the question if asked. As CCP will expect the CPM to know about these things. Sorry, yes. Not sure why I got on commenting when not sober... Almost went on a rant. |
Soraya Xel
The Corporate Raiders Top Men.
1489
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Posted - 2014.02.14 07:20:00 -
[38] - Quote
Better be careful with talking while intoxicated. It did not go well for certain former members of the CSM.
I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
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Kevall Longstride
DUST University Ivy League
986
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Posted - 2014.02.14 09:22:00 -
[39] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Better be careful with talking while intoxicated. It did not go well for certain former members of the CSM.
True dat. I was there.
The problem with the bonus system, and if any Dev's or CPM members could confirm this, is that I understand that the unreal engine has some real problems with it and CCP are having to do some tricks to get it do what they want.
We've had in the past several instances where bonuses were not being applied because it was clashing with other bonuses, etc etc. so while its nice to bandy about ideas for bonuses, we have to take into account the technical difficulties of pulling it off.
I suspect it's the reason we have a role bonus and racial bonus. It might be all that the engine is capable of at the moment.
Mercenary Clone of Dennie Fleetfoot
CEO of DUST University
CPM1 candidate
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine
1019
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Posted - 2014.02.14 10:58:00 -
[40] - Quote
Kevall Longstride wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:Better be careful with talking while intoxicated. It did not go well for certain former members of the CSM. True dat. I was there. The problem with the bonus system, and if any Dev's or CPM members could confirm this, is that I understand that the unreal engine has some real problems with it and CCP are having to do some tricks to get it do what they want. We've had in the past several instances where bonuses were not being applied because it was clashing with other bonuses, etc etc. so while its nice to bandy about ideas for bonuses, we have to take into account the technical difficulties of pulling it off. I suspect it's the reason we have a role bonus and racial bonus. It might be all that the engine is capable of at the moment.
The fact that we have an SP system and role bonuses is a miracle in itself in an engine that really wasn't built to support such a system. Unreal Engine was originally designed to support old-school 'twitch' shooters where the most you got was unlocks of new weapons based on time played (and / or mods based on those weapons).
From a training developer's point of view, I would LOVE to know how they managed that, though I'm sure they'll never tell (rightly so to).
The 'tag' system devs mentioned earlier is probably key to this principal, but I don't know the limits to which it can be pushed, or if tags require much more memory due to stacking bonuses or other such coding developments.
I think CCP is doing the very best, and honestly behind the scenes this game would have to have some cutting edge stuff to get it to do what it does, we just need to help them with direction, and not call **** every time something goes off rails.
Once you go Black, you just never go back!
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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance
1163
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Posted - 2014.02.14 12:54:00 -
[41] - Quote
Of course this will all be limited by the capability of the system available but this was more of a brainstorm of how we would change the bonus structure if we had the resources to do so.
My main point is that, to get people to even use the assault suits, they need to be better at their role than logistics are. In a sense, we are trying to blindly give CCP ideas on thought paths they should be taking to avoid issues with the playerbase who have been saying that the slayer logi is too good at doing both since the release of the cal logi.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2484
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Posted - 2014.02.14 13:14:00 -
[42] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Again...the reload time reduction is significant but I can get the exact same stats plus damage buff with the CalCommando. Can you think of a bonus that could be applied to Rail weapons that would be equivalent to the other bonuses other than reload speed? I mean without changed all the bonuses to something completely different? Good question...i've seen several possible solutions and here are a few: 1) decreased spool time for rail tech weapons. Roughly, I think CCP will probably increase spool time by X % and my proposal would be to have rail tech (light and sidearm) have a reduction of spool time per level so that it's roughly, perhaps a sliver more, than it is now. This is very much inline with the Amarr and Minmatar bonuses that are proposed and spool reduction is the only weapon drawback i'm aware of that currently doesn't have an SP sink to offset it somewhere. I like this solution, if the charge time on the Rail Rifle is increased slightly. The bonus would make it so that Caldari Assault could use the Rail Rifle effectively in CQC, but other suits would have to pair it with a CQC sidearm. I assume this bonus would effect the Charged Sniper Rifle as well.
Fox Gaden: DUST Wall of Fame, 2014
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
743
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Posted - 2014.02.14 15:47:00 -
[43] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Again...the reload time reduction is significant but I can get the exact same stats plus damage buff with the CalCommando. Can you think of a bonus that could be applied to Rail weapons that would be equivalent to the other bonuses other than reload speed? I mean without changed all the bonuses to something completely different? Good question...i've seen several possible solutions and here are a few: 1) decreased spool time for rail tech weapons. Roughly, I think CCP will probably increase spool time by X % and my proposal would be to have rail tech (light and sidearm) have a reduction of spool time per level so that it's roughly, perhaps a sliver more, than it is now. This is very much inline with the Amarr and Minmatar bonuses that are proposed and spool reduction is the only weapon drawback i'm aware of that currently doesn't have an SP sink to offset it somewhere. I like this solution, if the charge time on the Rail Rifle is increased slightly. The bonus would make it so that Caldari Assault could use the Rail Rifle effectively in CQC, but other suits would have to pair it with a CQC sidearm. I assume this bonus would effect the Charged Sniper Rifle as well.
That's generality the idea.
I've thought for a long time the Amarr Assault bonus was the model to use when looking at how role / racial bonuses can add depth to the game. I was a long time SCR user prior to the RR coming out and I could be effective with the weapon but there was a small and distinct advantage the Amarr Assaulters had when using the laser weapons that I didn't have access to.
Basically, the overall concept would be to highlight the synergy between using Racial Suits and Racial Weapons while making sure it doesn't pigeon hole you into certain combos.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
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Aeon Amadi
Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance
5009
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Posted - 2014.02.21 08:43:00 -
[44] - Quote
Boy this thread de-railed pretty damn quick.
Anyway, based on your original post: CCP isn't right, but they're not wrong either. There's things that we have to consider that we don't know yet. They say that the dispersion reduction on the Gallente Assault is necessary because of changes in 1.8, which can only make me speculate that they're increasing the dispersion/kick on the Assault Rifle in general being as that is the only weapon that the reduction really applies to. On the subject of a reload bonus, they might be increasing the reload times on the weapons as a measure to increase TTK. We don't know yet.
While I'm generally adverse to "CCP knows best" (they have a lot of hair-brained ideas but who doesn't) this is one of those things where, unfortunately, unless provided more information, all we can do is wait and see. I'd wager that that is why they're ignoring the community on this one; that there is something we don't know about and the knowledge can't be shared until it's more apt and ready.
Hope that helps.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2590
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Posted - 2014.02.21 20:20:00 -
[45] - Quote
Interesting....
The Assault (Blaster) Rifle is supposed to have the highest DPS but the shortest effective range.
If they nerf the damage on the Rail Rifle and Combat Rifle, but leave it the same on the Assault Rifle, it would bring their damage more in line with how those weapons should be. But to keep the Assault Rifle from staying OP, they can increase the dispersion to reduce the range at which it is effective, and increase kick which again will make it harder to apply full damage to the target at longer ranges. This would make the Assault Rifle more of a CQC weapon except on Gellente Assauls which get less dispersion and kick.
Fox Gaden: DUST Wall of Fame, 2014
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TEXA5 HiTM4N
ROGUE SPADES
442
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Posted - 2014.02.22 00:32:00 -
[46] - Quote
i 'd rather hear the final stats before i start spouting non sense. however, i dont see how rapid reload will help out a caldari assault vs an assault logi. i mean its already a skill isnt it?
how about a longer zoom for rail rifles since they are medium to long range combat?
Everything I say or do has the utmost importance.
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Heathen Bastard
The Bastard Brigade
984
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Posted - 2014.02.22 17:37:00 -
[47] - Quote
Since I've thrown my card at this hat, I'll go on record as saying that the Rail Rifle is the best/second best rifle, hands down in every situation except extreme CQC, and even there, it performs admirably. The suit bonus reinforces what is basically the one area it really needs, it's reload, having the slowest reload speed of any of the rifles. While not as bad a bonus as it's made out to be by some of the more extreme posters, they could stand to reinforce it's strengths.
But, with unknown nerfs coming to the rifle, this particular bonus may well be helpful. We don't know as they have yet to release concrete stats on the adjusted weaponry for the patch. If they say, took an axe to how much ammo is in the magazine, you will need to reload much more often, and someone with this bonus instantly becomes much more deadly to the opposing team than someone without who will possibly miss the opportunity for killing an enemy, defending a point, or assaulting a point due to needing to reload and giving them vital seconds to hit cover, complete a hack, or inform them of his position.
While the bonus could stand to reinforce it's strengths(my suggestion would be an optimal range increase, or kick reduction, maybe both at 2%/level, as it lines up with caldari rail combat doctrine as established in EVE, hit 'em hard from as far away as you possibly can. Kill them before they can even get into their falloff) If the nerf is as heavy-handed as we've come to see from CCP, the reload bonus could be quite useful.
Of course, CCP could take a third option and design the weapons to go with their particular suits(axing certain aspects of multiple weapons that are being boosted by their assault suit), which would basically cripple the guns being used on any other suit while giving the assault a tangible advantage with them.
If you hear the words "WORTH IT!" look about, something hilarious just happened.
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