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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
1149
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Posted - 2014.02.11 05:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
My issue with it is that it still does not give any real benefit to using an assault over a logi in frontline combat unless they are changing up the pg/cpu costs of the weapons as well.
Honestly, they should lower the baseline dps of the light weapons and then have assault suits have a bonus to their racial weapons. This means that a logi could equip the same weapon but would not be as effective with it.
In EVE, ships get a damage bonus for their racial weapon type. I would hope that Dust goes this route as well as they release more weapons for each race. That would allow for an expansion of suit types based on the bonuses that they give.
If you give the suits the bonus, it expands variability. You could have a min assault with a bonus to projectile weapons and one with a bonus to explosive.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
1154
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Posted - 2014.02.12 18:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
I think one thing that people are overlooking is the player size in matches. In a 16 v 16 scenario, there is not much room for specialization. This is especially the case with the larger maps.
Too many times, you will have to spread your team out to hold objectives which limits the composition of your squads.
Take a PC team for example.
This is typically made up of 2-3 vehicle users which means that you have 13-14 infantry to hold at least 3 points over the match. Given the amount of fighting that occurs around those points, it is typically brawler types that are the most effective. If the player counts were expanded, it would lead to the ability to add more diverse suits and play styles to the mix.
One of the biggest hurdles is going to be making assaults actually the preferable choice as a dps dealer. They have to have some advantage as far as bonuses that a logi cannot achieve.
Lets look at each suit bonus as it would pertain to this type of play (based on limited information about changes to suits)
Assault [5% reduction to PG/CPU cost of light/sidearm weapons]
- Caldari Assault: +5% to reload speed of hybrid railgun light/sidearm weapons per level.
This will have minimal impact in most fights. The caldari assault would only be chosen if its fitting abilities allowed for it to have better gank or tank over other assaults. Changes to the rail rifle would have a massive impact on the use of this suit which makes it very risky.
- Gallente Assault: 5% reduction to hybrid - blaster light/sidearm hip-fire dispersion and kick per level.
Hip fire for the assault rifle is something that is used in tight quarters so I can see how this would be a benefit for Gallente Assaults. Also, taking into account that the AR has not suffered as much from the nerf/buff cycle as other weapons, it would be a much safer choice for players.
- Minmatar Assault: +5% to projectile light/sidearm clip size per level.
This is probably the most balanced approach aside from the Amarr to an assault suit though it still does not make it that much better than a logistics. When taken into account, this is a better bonus than reload speed as it allows for much more dps given on an attacking enemy and especially the heavies. Still, unless something is done about the extremely tight fitting abilities of the suit, it will be left aside.
- Amarr Assault: 5% reduction to laser weaponry heat build-up per level.
Like the Cal Assault, the Amarr is dependent on the abilities of the weapons it is using. While the SCR has not fallen victim to the cycle too much, the laser rifle has been collecting dust for months.
Logistics [5% reduction to PG/CPU cost of equipment]
- Caldari Logistics: +10% to nanohive max. nanites and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level.
Nanohives, while great for pub matches, are limited in PC. Clones just dont live long enough for ammo replenishment to be of much use. The possible exploit with this are logistics that armor tank and use the triage hives as self armor repair. This would make the Cal Logi preferable over the Cal Assault as a frontline fighter.
- Gallente Logistics: +10% to active scanner visibility duration and +5% to active scanner precision per level.
As the scanners have not been nerfed as far as db rating from what I have seen, the Gal Logi will again be a prime choice for competitive play. If the slots are not changed, then it will still be able to massively armor tank while loading up on damage mods in the highs. Given that it is only missing out on hipfire dispersion for ARs compared to the assault, it is a better frontline fighter than the Gal Assault.
- Minmatar Logistics: +10% to repair tool range and 5% to repair amount per level.
The Minmatar Logistics will get the most niche bonus out of all of the suits offered for competitive play. The focus on the repair tool means that they would only be good when coupled with an armor tanked heavy. Their bonus to speed is nullified as they will be limited to the speed of the heavy. This will mean that they will be the last choice of all of the logistics suits. The Minmatar suits will be black sheep if the current fitting limitations are kept.
- Amarr Logistics: 10% reduction to drop uplink spawn time and +2 to max. spawn count per level.
The Amarr Logistics will be heavily used in competitive play based on the abilities that it gives with uplinks which is crucial.
So, what does this all mean?
Logistics are still the winners out of all of the new suit stats simply due to the fact that their abilities give aide to a battle with almost no detriment to their ability to deal DPS. Also, they are not as reliant on the nerf/buff cycle of weapons as assaults are due to their bonuses.
Most players will either be using Gal or Amarr Logis with a Cal here and there. The Min Logis will only see play if the team uses armor heavies to some extent but that is completely dependent on the nerf/buff of the HMG.
The bonuses to assaults means that there will be a very high sensitivity from the playerbase to what the devs do to their weapons. As many younger characters do not have the SP to skill into multiple suits, they might find that their suit and weapon of choice have become almost unusable if the nerf hammer hits them too hard. This might lead to them quitting the game if all they feel is frustration.
This is why I feel the only way to balance logis and assaults is to lower the dps of all weapons and give assaults a bonus in that regards. It balances out their lack of multiple equipment and tight fittings. Logis will move to what they are supposed to be in giving logistical advantages to the team and can still support in firefights but at a lesser extent than assaults. The logi will still see play in PC with their bonuses to equipment (especially Amarr and Gallente).
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
1157
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Posted - 2014.02.13 14:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Canari Elphus wrote: Stuff You make a strong argument Canari Elphus. There are a few details I might dispute, but the overall argument is solid. So were you thinking a 2% per level damage bonus for Assault suits? I like the flavour of the current racial assault suit bonuses, but I agree they are probably not significant enough for someone to pick an Assault suit over a logi suit. I mean when Minmitar Assault had the bonus to sidearm clip size there were some of us using SMG as primary weapon on those suits, but most did not bother. It added flavour, but was not an important enough bonus to make you feel like you had to take advantage of it. These bonuses feel the same way. But your suggested damage bonus for Assault suits is different. People who want to do max damage will go for the assault suit. Normally I donGÇÖt like straight damage bonuses, but in this case, to define Assault as GÇ£the Damage classGÇ¥, I think the simple and obvious approach might be best. I think 2% per level, essentially a built in Complex Damage mod at max level, would be the way to go. Even if they kept all the currently proposed bonuses and just added a second class bonus of 1% damage per level, that might be enough. It would only be the equivalent of an Enhanced Damage mod, but without a stacking penalty. Of course Weapon damage would have to be reduced as you say, and the effect this would have on Scout suits would have to be looked at as well.
I think a mixed bonus would be appropriate for assaults. One for the role and one for the racial.
These are a couple spitball ideas:
Minmitar:
Assault Suit Bonus - 1% damage to projectile and explosive weapons
Minmatar Bonus - 2% bonus to dropsuit sprint speed
Caldari:
Assault Suit Bonus - 1% damage to hybrid weapons (EVE bonus can be used for blasters and rails)
Caldari Bonus - 5% bonus to shield recharge delay
Gallente:
Assault Suit Bonus - 1% damage to hybrid weapons
Gallente Bonus - 2% bonus to armor plating
Amarr:
Assault Suit Bonus - 1% damage to laser weapons
Amarr Bonus - 5% bonus to laser weapon heat build up
I agree that scouts will need to have their bonuses looked at but the total 5% damage bonus is not enough to make them useless. Their new cloaking ability will allow them to get the drop on other suits which could more than make up for the damage advantage of assaults.
This is why I wish we had access to private test servers to test these adjustments.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
1161
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Posted - 2014.02.13 17:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
Kevall Longstride wrote:Having two racial bonuses is not a good idea at the moment and once again I think that wishing is father of the thought.
Having a role bonus common to all suits in a role plus 1 racial bonus is easier to understand and more importantly to balance. And with the TTK problems we have, the last thing we need right now is a DPS increase across a whole role.
Beside having two racial bonuses is likely to the purview of the pirate faction suits when they arrive.
I appreciate the condsideration of TTK but that is why I am advocating a DPS reduction in weapons to begin with. This is simply about the suits themselves and, with the reduction of DPS across weapons, this becomes fair and gives the assault class a reason to exist when compared to logistics.
As far as dual bonuses. I find that this will not hinder any possible pirate faction suits that come about. Many T2 ships in EVE have dual bonuses with one being racial and one being role specific so this is not divergent from that.
Pirate faction ships have their bonuses based on proficiency in two racial classes and a bonus from the pirate faction itself which, again, would not be outdone by the assault bonuses I proposed if applied to the suits.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
1163
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Posted - 2014.02.14 12:54:00 -
[5] - Quote
Of course this will all be limited by the capability of the system available but this was more of a brainstorm of how we would change the bonus structure if we had the resources to do so.
My main point is that, to get people to even use the assault suits, they need to be better at their role than logistics are. In a sense, we are trying to blindly give CCP ideas on thought paths they should be taking to avoid issues with the playerbase who have been saying that the slayer logi is too good at doing both since the release of the cal logi.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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