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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
738
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Posted - 2014.02.11 03:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
To the CPM and CPM 1 candidates,
I'm requesting your comment on this thread reference the CCP proposed assault suit bonuses.
According to CCP Saberwing he and CCP Remnant have read and acknowledged the significant amount of feedback reference the proposed Caldari Assault suit bonus needing to be re-worked and apparently have decided that we will like the reload bonus better despite the very consistent response to the contrary.
Questions to the CPM and Candidates...will you go on record as to your positions on this topic and your reactions to CCP Remnant's response?
If possible can you dual post into the thread linked above to give the community greater exposure to your response.
Thank you for your time.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
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Mossellia Delt
Militaires Sans Jeux
911
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Posted - 2014.02.11 04:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
Link broken, one to many http's
Join the Channel - CPM1 Candidates - Get to know who's running.
Delt for CPM1
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
738
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Posted - 2014.02.11 04:28:00 -
[3] - Quote
Mossellia Delt wrote:Link broken, one to many http's
Fixed. Thanks for the notification.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
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Mossellia Delt
Militaires Sans Jeux
912
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Posted - 2014.02.11 04:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'm more concerned about them changing the minmatar explosive weapon bonus. The reload bonus sounds alright, cuts down on the extra sp sink in RR for each weapon.
Join the Channel - CPM1 Candidates - Get to know who's running.
Delt for CPM1
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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance
1149
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Posted - 2014.02.11 05:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
My issue with it is that it still does not give any real benefit to using an assault over a logi in frontline combat unless they are changing up the pg/cpu costs of the weapons as well.
Honestly, they should lower the baseline dps of the light weapons and then have assault suits have a bonus to their racial weapons. This means that a logi could equip the same weapon but would not be as effective with it.
In EVE, ships get a damage bonus for their racial weapon type. I would hope that Dust goes this route as well as they release more weapons for each race. That would allow for an expansion of suit types based on the bonuses that they give.
If you give the suits the bonus, it expands variability. You could have a min assault with a bonus to projectile weapons and one with a bonus to explosive.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
738
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Posted - 2014.02.11 05:28:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mossellia Delt wrote:I'm more concerned about them changing the minmatar explosive weapon bonus. The reload bonus sounds alright, cuts down on the extra sp sink in RR for each weapon.
There is no indication that they have removed the reload speed skill for any of the Caldari weapons. In theory you can bring the total reload down by, what...50% if you max the skill and suit bonus. Doesn't really contribute to the long range flanker style.
Additionally, you can achieve the same effect with the Commando and get the additional dmg bonus based on the proposed suit stats.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
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Soraya Xel
The Corporate Raiders Top Men.
1440
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Posted - 2014.02.11 05:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
An ally of mine (full disclosure, on that, though I read the posts, and liked it, and then realized it was him) said something I liked:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1815274#post1815274
Villanor Aquarius wrote:Bonuses should not cover a weapons weakness, that leads to homogenization. The bonuses should emphasize weapon strength. For Caldari it should be either range, spool reduction, or kick reduction. For Gallente it should be a very minor damage boost. For Minmatar it should be blast radius on explosives and ammo capacity, not clip size. For Amarr it should be charge up reduction and damage ramp-up increase.
The last thing, weapons and tanks shouldn't be as closely linked. For instance Caldari and Gallente should get their respective bonus to all hybrid weapons. This way if you are focused on shields you can still go any hybrid weapon but they'll perform differently than a Gallente suit using a hybrid.
Explosives are viable on either armor or shields as Minmatar traditionally can go with either. In the current state you are restricted to weapons based on what tank you want or vice versa and that's a shame as it's not the case in eve and it's one of the huge draws of fittings in Eve.
Increasing viable build variety is important for enjoyable gameplay and the current bonuses do the opposite.
In particular, that bonuses shouldn't reduce a weakness as much as they should enhance a unique strength. (I actually think his Caldari Assault suggestion, interestingly enough, contradicts that overall suggestion to some degree.) The medium rifles do feel, actually, very similar in many regards, and I'd like them to, if anything, feel more different. Highlighting and emphasizing the parts of them that are unique helps with that, and also, helps informs the player what sort of elements on the gun are unique, right on the skill.
As far as balance against the other announced bonuses, there is a huge point that reload bonus doesn't help you at all in the initial engagement, whereas reduced kick and dispersion, reduced heat buildup, and even additional clip size is all helpful in the very short term. Reload is the last of these various racial bonuses to have an effective purpose. I can see engagements I've had where it could nudge the difference, but not compared to some of the others offered. And the community can see that, I think.
I like Villanor's other thoughts on fitting flexibility too, which is why I quoted the whole post. ;)
I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
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Spartacus Dust
The-Legionnaires The CORVOS
105
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Posted - 2014.02.11 05:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
Canari Elphus wrote:My issue with it is that it still does not give any real benefit to using an assault over a logi in frontline combat unless they are changing up the pg/cpu costs of the weapons as well.
Honestly, they should lower the baseline dps of the light weapons and then have assault suits have a bonus to their racial weapons. This means that a logi could equip the same weapon but would not be as effective with it.
In EVE, ships get a damage bonus for their racial weapon type. I would hope that Dust goes this route as well as they release more weapons for each race. That would allow for an expansion of suit types based on the bonuses that they give.
If you give the suits the bonus, it expands variability. You could have a min assault with a bonus to projectile weapons and one with a bonus to explosive.
Beautiful in Bold. I totally agree.
Twitter @Matthew_Dust
Candidate for the CPM1 One Universe//One War
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
13046
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Posted - 2014.02.11 08:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
While I think too many partons have undersold the value of the rapid reload (which is excessively powerful bonus and thousands of more dps per minute but thats just a terrible scenario) far too many have made the argument on how lame the bonus was without any clear intentions of either providing a better bonus nor clearly defining the issue at hand that the rail rifle itself among one of four weapons to potentially benefit is what one would call a 'perfect' weapon.
Thus appropriately any % x bonus to the rail rifle would and should be meet with nearly equal amounts of wtf or lame.
I am afraid that for the caldari rail rifle and magsec to be better harmonized with an assault suit skill worthy for the assault would be to significantly raise their charge times to the point it becomes an inconvenience to most operators; make it a very uncomfortable weapon to use in cqc, or even in its extended range but not make it too high of a charge that one cannot get the first shot out before he dies to a threat he prepared against first.
Gallente bonus is another bag of beams I am afraid.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Kevall Longstride
DUST University Ivy League
961
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Posted - 2014.02.11 09:21:00 -
[10] - Quote
I freely admit that my biggest weakness as a candidate is that I'm not as much a balance and stat junkie as others that are standing. I'm not going to pretend otherwise as I'll just get cet caught out.
My focus for what I'd like to achieve on the CPM is a betterment of the NPE and to increase retention of new players, something I like to think that we achieve in DUST University on a weekly basis if I'm seeing from the Eve client is anything to go by. Making it possible to run a corp in Dust without the Eve client is another focus of mine.
But a lot of the feedback from players regarding reload bonus is coming from those that admit within their own posts, that they consider reload as a minor skill, not as important as say, proficiency to increase DPS. This in itself makes me question how much they really claim to know.
I consider the reload skill as vitally important to any of the light weapons, more so perhaps than even the profiency skill in certain combat situations.
DPS is not just a measure of the damage per round but a measure of how much damage you can sustain over time. Being able to reload quickly and reapply damage increases the DPS in a more subtle but often winning way. I've personally lost count how many times I've gone one on one with another assault or logi, with both of us firing at each at the same time, and I've won the encounter, purely because I've reloaded my clip and firing at them before they've even pulled their old clip out.
I would say that that those that claim that reload means nothing should reevaluate their playstyle with that suit as find a another that suits their style better. Your not playing to the strengths of the suit, you want the suit to play to yours. And when too many are doing that, then balancing become almost impossible.
Mercenary Clone of Dennie Fleetfoot
CEO of DUST University
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Soraya Xel
The Corporate Raiders Top Men.
1444
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Posted - 2014.02.11 14:40:00 -
[11] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I am afraid that for the caldari rail rifle and magsec to be better harmonized with an assault suit skill worthy for the assault would be to significantly raise their charge times to the point it becomes an inconvenience to most operators; make it a very uncomfortable weapon to use in cqc, or even in its extended range but not make it too high of a charge that one cannot get the first shot out before he dies to a threat he prepared against first.
In some regards, I think it's important that the rail rifle be the definitively second worst weapon to use in CQC, short of the sniper rifle. When I am rail rifling, and I get into CQC, I should feel a distinct need to switch to a sidearm. (Sometimes I do, with the current fit, but not always. I switch to an AR fit though when I'm inside certain cities, because of the rail rifle's CQC deficiency.)
Kevall Longstride wrote:DPS is not just a measure of the damage per round but a measure of how much damage you can sustain over time. Being able to reload quickly and reapply damage increases the DPS in a more subtle but often winning way. I've personally lost count how many times I've gone one on one with another assault or logi, with both of us firing at each at the same time, and I've won the encounter, purely because I've reloaded my clip and firing at them before they've even pulled their old clip out.
I think we all have. But what others are probably focusing on, is the fact that most engagements between two players with medium rifles end long before a reload is necessary. Whereas all of the other assault bonuses will help them much more immediately.
I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
739
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Posted - 2014.02.11 16:17:00 -
[12] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:While I think too many partons have undersold the value of the rapid reload (which is excessively powerful bonus and thousands of more dps per minute but thats just a terrible scenario) far too many have made the argument on how lame the bonus was without any clear intentions of either providing a better bonus nor clearly defining the issue at hand that the rail rifle itself among one of four weapons to potentially benefit is what one would call a 'perfect' weapon.
Thus appropriately any % x bonus to the rail rifle would and should be meet with nearly equal amounts of wtf or lame.
I am afraid that for the caldari rail rifle and magsec to be better harmonized with an assault suit skill worthy for the assault would be to significantly raise their charge times to the point it becomes an inconvenience to most operators; make it a very uncomfortable weapon to use in cqc, or even in its extended range but not make it too high of a charge that one cannot get the first shot out before he dies to a threat he prepared against first.
Gallente bonus is another bag of beams I am afraid.
IWS for the record I said haven't said that 25% addition to reload is insignificant. My point to CCP Saberwing is that there are significantly more useful perks to explore that highlight the Caldari playstyle or directly mitigate the primary short coming of a given racial weapons suit (I.e. Minmatar and Amarr).
My other concern is that the bonus is mimicked in the Commando class and you can select a SP sink option in all weapons rapid reload already. The reload time of a shield tank hit-n-run race that focuses on long range striking power isn't a major deficit.
A quick search of the relevant threads indicate several viable options for useful perks that aren't OP or unrealistic.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
739
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Posted - 2014.02.11 16:30:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kevall Longstride wrote: I would say that that those that claim that reload means nothing should reevaluate their playstyle with that suit as find a another that suits their style better. Your not playing to the strengths of the suit, you want the suit to play to yours. And when too many are doing that, then balancing become almost impossible.
Kevall,
You are making some fairly strong statements in reference play style options...the disconnect is the perception of playstyles.
Based on the high DPS, stand and trade in CQC style of the Gallente I can make a much more relevant case for the Gal to have the proposed Caldari reload bonus.
Again, no one is saying the bonus isn't substantive but when taken into account against the relative playstyle of the Caldari the bonus is devalued for the Assault specialist. Consider these factors: rail weapons are low ROF giving longer trigger time, they are optimized for longer range fights where engagements can be less frenetic, and the Caldari shield tank is based on strike / withdraw / strike tactics. All of these factors devalue the reload bonus to the Caldari but doesn't mean it's not a solid bonus to perhaps other suits.
So, to your point of playing with the strengths of the suit - how does the reload bonus play to the strengths of the Caldari Assault?
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
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Kevall Longstride
DUST University Ivy League
971
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Posted - 2014.02.11 17:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:So, to your point of playing with the strengths of the suit - how does the reload bonus play to the strengths of the Caldari Assault?
You already answered that. The Caldari are a long/range hit and fade playstyle. Play to that playstyle, staying at range, kiting the enemy from there then rapid reload becomes very important. It enables a constant level of DPS from range.
If your rushing into cqc using a rail gun, when it's designed to be best used at range then that is not playing to it playing style and part of the reason the RR is considered OP at the moment. Because it can work well at both range and cqc is why it's replaced the AR as the go to light weapon choice.
The hip fire and dispersion bonus for the Gallante Assault is perfect for how the AR should operate, short to midrange, within the cities. Rapid reload is perfect for the longer range RR as it minimises the time an enemy has to rush you so they can bring their weapons to its optimal range. Particularly when the rail weapons have smaller ammo clips to burn through.
Mercenary Clone of Dennie Fleetfoot
CEO of DUST University
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SILENTSAM 69
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
643
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Posted - 2014.02.11 17:36:00 -
[15] - Quote
My Caldari Assualt will get a reload bonus? Nice
Considering how often reloading faster is imortant, this will be an amazing bonus. I am glad I am sticking with the Caldari Assault. Everything I have heard about it I love. |
Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
739
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Posted - 2014.02.11 22:57:00 -
[16] - Quote
Kevall Longstride wrote:Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:So, to your point of playing with the strengths of the suit - how does the reload bonus play to the strengths of the Caldari Assault?
You already answered that. The Caldari are a long/range hit and fade playstyle. Play to that playstyle, staying at range, kiting the enemy from there then rapid reload becomes very important. It enables a constant level of DPS from range. If your rushing into cqc using a rail gun, when it's designed to be best used at range then that is not playing to it playing style and part of the reason the RR is considered OP at the moment. Because it can work well at both range and cqc is why it's replaced the AR as the go to light weapon choice. The hip fire and dispersion bonus for the Gallante Assault is perfect for how the AR should operate, short to midrange, within the cities. Rapid reload is perfect for the longer range RR as it minimises the time an enemy has to rush you so they can bring their weapons to its optimal range. Particularly when the rail weapons have smaller ammo clips to burn through.
I think well have to agree to disagree on this one. We are simply seeing different perspectives of the Caldari playstyle. I have been shield tank pure / CalAssault from day one and actually try to play it that way and at least in my experiences I don't have the same overwhelming need for more a reload bonus than I can already get via the weapon skill tree SP sink.
Thoughts on double tapping the reload bonus with the Caldari Commando class or that it already has the aforementioned weapon SP sink option? This was a key issue for me...have multiple options to offset reload speed if I wanted, I didn't need another.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
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Appia Vibbia
Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance
1118
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Posted - 2014.02.11 23:35:00 -
[17] - Quote
CCP Saberwing wrote:Assault [5% reduction to PG/CPU cost of light/sidearm weapons] - Caldari Assault: +5% to reload speed of hybrid railgun light/sidearm weapons per level. - Gallente Assault: 5% reduction to hybrid - blaster light/sidearm hip-fire dispersion and kick per level. - Minmatar Assault: +5% to projectile light/sidearm and +1 to Minmatar explosive weaponry clip size per level. - Amarr Assault: 5% reduction to laser weaponry heat build-up per level.. I just don't like this. On Appia I have Gallente Assault Operation lvl 1 and Amarr and Caldari Assault Operation at level 3 I've played a lot of PC and I enjoy Faction Warfare so I also have skill-reduced suits from salvage or purchase one tier higher. I have a toxin AR (blaster) with 0 SP invested, lvl 3 laser rifle (laser), proto scrambler pistol (laser), scrambler rifle (laser), shotgun (blaster), rail rifle (railgun), and sniper rifle (railgun). and nova knives, smg, flaylock, mass driver, and swarms but no bonus to those from skills.
right now, if these changes were implemented without an SP refunded, I'd have to say that the Caldari the most useless and the biggest nerf to the suit. Rail Rifle or Sniper Rifle I am using it from far away to pick people off outside their optimal range. When someone does close in on me, I run away to where they need to engage me in CQC. Now aside from the fact that the Rail Rifle has no downside to being in close quarters especially if you know the guy is coming at you from a particular direction I can always switch to the Scrambler Pistol which is far more effective. I can also plan it out to tear away the shields with the pistol and finish him off with the RR. When running a Rail Rifle I have time to plan out how to fight someone because I kite them out to where I want to fight. I don't "chase kills" in this suit. So on this suit and this build, I am gaining CPU and PG from my weapons but am losing 6% shield HP and 6% shield recharge speed and gaining 15% reload speed on a weapon I rarely in dire need to reload faster. I am also only going to benefit the reload of my light weapon and not my sidearm because I like to mix and match full auto with semi auto and shield damage with armor damage. I think this bonus would be most effective if I ran my scrambler rifle or laser rifle with a Magsec SMG.
My Gallente Suit is getting what I think to be the most overpowered improvement. I'm armor tanking, I don't care for shields and shield recharge. My highs are occupied by damage mods. No loss there. Then I get to keep my fitting bonus I already had... well except I don't get that bonus to Sniper Rifle and Rail Rifle anymore . Running around with my 0SP AR I now have the equivalent to sharpshooter level 1 without having to pay for it. So if I haven't skilled into Assault Rifle or Shotguns this seems pretty nice. However, the sharpshooter skill already exists. Sharpshooter 5 already has this weapon firing with hardly any bullet dispersion. While the shotgun's shotgun operation skill also decrease that weapon's dispersion. At some point the weapons' skills and the Gallente Assault Operation skill adds up to the point of being redundant and adding no net benefit. Testing with other alts I've personally found an Assault Rifle or Combat Rifle at level 1 operations and level 5 sharpshooter to be far more effective in combat that a Duvolle or Boundless without Sharpshooter.
The Minmatar Assault bonus is something that I do not have on Appia. I do have it with a combat rifle and SMG on another character however. I kind of like this one. It is expanding on what the bonus already was and including light weapons with it as well. It may be more effective on an assault combat rifle than on a regular variant but it'll be nice. The loss of the shield bonus is going to hit a little bit hard but on a suit with such an unfortunate slot layout the little reduction to weapon fitting cost will be nice.
The Amarr Assault will be getting 4 PG back on the Viziam Scrambler RIfle and 19-23 CPU back on it depending on what level Light Weapon Operations is at. So that is pretty nice. The shield bonus being absent will hurt it more than the Gallente but less than the Minmatar and Caldari. The racial bonus is not changing at all for them... I don't know. It's nice that it effects the Scrambler Rifle and Laser Rifle but it doesn't do anything for the Scrambler Pistol. Maybe if an Amarr themed SMG is released that will have a heat build up and it will help it out.
In Eve the ship you use gives you a bonus to Hybrid, Laser, Projectiles, or Explosives and it varies from ship to ship how much or what the bonus is but it is based off the spaceship command skill related to that ship. I can see how CCP is trying to carry over that onto their Assault and Heavy Frame suits, but I think the skill bonuses should be something to enhance a playstyle rather than a weapon type. I think the bonuses now are restrictive. I agree with some that giving bonus to make all the weapon equal rather than emphasizing their strong-points would be a better direction to take it,
I really think the bonuses should emphasize a playstyle associated with the suit rather than a bonus to racial weapons.
Appia Vibbia for CPM1
[email protected] (checked every Monday/Wednesday/Friday)
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Derrith Erador
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
941
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Posted - 2014.02.12 00:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
Appia Vibbia wrote:CCP Saberwing wrote:Assault [5% reduction to PG/CPU cost of light/sidearm weapons] - Caldari Assault: +5% to reload speed of hybrid railgun light/sidearm weapons per level. - Gallente Assault: 5% reduction to hybrid - blaster light/sidearm hip-fire dispersion and kick per level. - Minmatar Assault: +5% to projectile light/sidearm and +1 to Minmatar explosive weaponry clip size per level. - Amarr Assault: 5% reduction to laser weaponry heat build-up per level.. I just don't like this. On Appia I have Gallente Assault Operation lvl 1 and Amarr and Caldari Assault Operation at level 3 I've played a lot of PC and I enjoy Faction Warfare so I also have skill-reduced suits from salvage or purchase one tier higher. I have a toxin AR (blaster) with 0 SP invested, lvl 3 laser rifle (laser), proto scrambler pistol (laser), scrambler rifle (laser), shotgun (blaster), rail rifle (railgun), and sniper rifle (railgun). and nova knives, smg, flaylock, mass driver, and swarms but no bonus to those from skills. right now, if these changes were implemented without an SP refunded, I'd have to say that the Caldari the most useless and the biggest nerf to the suit. Rail Rifle or Sniper Rifle I am using it from far away to pick people off outside their optimal range. When someone does close in on me, I run away to where they need to engage me in CQC. Now aside from the fact that the Rail Rifle has no downside to being in close quarters especially if you know the guy is coming at you from a particular direction I can always switch to the Scrambler Pistol which is far more effective. I can also plan it out to tear away the shields with the pistol and finish him off with the RR. When running a Rail Rifle I have time to plan out how to fight someone because I kite them out to where I want to fight. I don't "chase kills" in this suit. So on this suit and this build, I am gaining CPU and PG from my weapons but am losing 6% shield HP and 6% shield recharge speed and gaining 15% reload speed on a weapon I rarely in dire need to reload faster. I am also only going to benefit the reload of my light weapon and not my sidearm because I like to mix and match full auto with semi auto and shield damage with armor damage. I think this bonus would be most effective if I ran my scrambler rifle or laser rifle with a Magsec SMG. My Gallente Suit is getting what I think to be the most overpowered improvement. I'm armor tanking, I don't care for shields and shield recharge. My highs are occupied by damage mods. No loss there. Then I get to keep my fitting bonus I already had... well except I don't get that bonus to Sniper Rifle and Rail Rifle anymore . Running around with my 0SP AR I now have the equivalent to sharpshooter level 1 without having to pay for it. So if I haven't skilled into Assault Rifle or Shotguns this seems pretty nice. However, the sharpshooter skill already exists. Sharpshooter 5 already has this weapon firing with hardly any bullet dispersion. While the shotgun's shotgun operation skill also decrease that weapon's dispersion. At some point the weapons' skills and the Gallente Assault Operation skill adds up to the point of being redundant and adding no net benefit. Testing with other alts I've personally found an Assault Rifle or Combat Rifle at level 1 operations and level 5 sharpshooter to be far more effective in combat that a Duvolle or Boundless without Sharpshooter. The Minmatar Assault bonus is something that I do not have on Appia. I do have it with a combat rifle and SMG on another character however. I kind of like this one. It is expanding on what the bonus already was and including light weapons with it as well. It may be more effective on an assault combat rifle than on a regular variant but it'll be nice. The loss of the shield bonus is going to hit a little bit hard but on a suit with such an unfortunate slot layout the little reduction to weapon fitting cost will be nice. The Amarr Assault will be getting 4 PG back on the Viziam Scrambler RIfle and 19-23 CPU back on it depending on what level Light Weapon Operations is at. So that is pretty nice. The shield bonus being absent will hurt it more than the Gallente but less than the Minmatar and Caldari. The racial bonus is not changing at all for them... I don't know. It's nice that it effects the Scrambler Rifle and Laser Rifle but it doesn't do anything for the Scrambler Pistol. Maybe if an Amarr themed SMG is released that will have a heat build up and it will help it out. In Eve the ship you use gives you a bonus to Hybrid, Laser, Projectiles, or Explosives and it varies from ship to ship how much or what the bonus is but it is based off the spaceship command skill related to that ship. I can see how CCP is trying to carry over that onto their Assault and Heavy Frame suits, but I think the skill bonuses should be something to enhance a playstyle rather than a weapon type. I think the bonuses now are restrictive. I agree with some that giving bonus to make all the weapon equal rather than emphasizing their strong-points would be a better direction to take it, I really think the bonuses should emphasize a playstyle associated with the suit rather than a bonus to racial weapons.
Alright, listen. You don't like me, and well, I'm neutral. But I have to agree changing the bonuses to the cal and Amarrican! suits will kill them. Don't touch the cal, unless giving it a 1% per level buff. The gallente assault suit has always been handicapped, which is a shame, because if it had that little extra PG it would be awesome, and the hobo suit, meh, I couldn't care less about that.
beatin' slaves and whippin' knaves All in a days work for an Amarrican!
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Appia Vibbia
Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance
1121
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Posted - 2014.02.12 00:52:00 -
[19] - Quote
Derrith Erador wrote:Alright, listen. You don't like me, and well, I'm neutral. But I have to agree changing the bonuses to the cal and Amarrican! suits will kill them. Don't touch the cal, unless giving it a 1% per level buff. The gallente assault suit has always been handicapped, which is a shame, because if it had that little extra PG it would be awesome, and the hobo suit, meh, I couldn't care less about that. I only don't like you because you take away my private time with Lady. #jealouswoman
Appia Vibbia for CPM1
[email protected] (checked every Monday/Wednesday/Friday)
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Killar-12
The Corporate Raiders Top Men.
2302
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Posted - 2014.02.12 01:16:00 -
[20] - Quote
Canari Elphus wrote:My issue with it is that it still does not give any real benefit to using an assault over a logi in frontline combat unless they are changing up the pg/cpu costs of the weapons as well.
Honestly, they should lower the baseline dps of the light weapons and then have assault suits have a bonus to their racial weapons. This means that a logi could equip the same weapon but would not be as effective with it.
In EVE, ships get a damage bonus for their racial weapon type. I would hope that Dust goes this route as well as they release more weapons for each race. That would allow for an expansion of suit types based on the bonuses that they give.
If you give the suits the bonus, it expands variability. You could have a min assault with a bonus to projectile weapons and one with a bonus to explosive.
This Ideally, Villanor's point as the back up plan.
Listen
I'll change the song every week
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2471
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Posted - 2014.02.12 11:22:00 -
[21] - Quote
With a longer TTK the Shield suit play style of ducking behind cover for a moment to allow your shields to regenerate will be a lot more viable, and the bonus will also allow you to reload every time you do so without as much fear of getting caught out in the middle of a reload cycle by an enemy flanking you.
You need to look at all the changes together.
Essentially a Caldari Assault suit with a Rail Rifle, played the way the Caldari Assault suit was designed to be played, will always have ammo in the magazine.
Fox Gaden: DUST Wall of Fame, 2014
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
739
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Posted - 2014.02.12 15:30:00 -
[22] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:With a longer TTK the Shield suit play style of ducking behind cover for a moment to allow your shields to regenerate will be a lot more viable, and the bonus will also allow you to reload every time you do so without as much fear of getting caught out in the middle of a reload cycle by an enemy flanking you.
You need to look at all the changes together.
Essentially a Caldari Assault suit with a Rail Rifle, played the way the Caldari Assault suit was designed to be played, will always have ammo in the magazine.
I think some of us are looking at the changes holistically. Like i said, reload bonus isn't a throwaway...it is less useful to the Caldari than the bonuses the other races are getting (save perhaps Gallente).
I can already short up my reload speed via a weapon skill and while playing the mid to long range style we both agree is Caldari in nature I've rarely been flanked in the way you describe. I've been rolled up plenty of time but usually because I didn't see them coming...certainly not due to reload speed.
If you want the long range suppression role (steady rate of fire and minimal reload breaks) the Caldari Commando seems tailor made for that. I can get the EXACT same reload bonus + weapon reload SP sink AND get a damage bonus to rail rifles.
So what is giving the CalAssault a distinct flavor or highlights their playstyle? Are they just meant to be a speedier version of the CalCommando?
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
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Killar-12
The Corporate Raiders Top Men.
2310
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Posted - 2014.02.12 16:43:00 -
[23] - Quote
I'd like to see the PRO Gal assault get a bit more PG at the cost of some CPU, and I'd like a Damage or RoF bonus, even like 1% or 2% per level.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2472
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Posted - 2014.02.12 17:09:00 -
[24] - Quote
With Caldari Assault to 5 and Reload to 5:
The Bolt Pistol will reload in 1.35 seconds. That is only about 3 times the normal delay between shots (ROF is 0.4) Damage per shot ranges from 135 to 148.5.
Not to mention what it will do to the Tactical Sniper Rifle.
The Magsec SMG will reload in 1.6 seconds, which is not half bad either.
Fox Gaden: DUST Wall of Fame, 2014
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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance
1154
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Posted - 2014.02.12 18:46:00 -
[25] - Quote
I think one thing that people are overlooking is the player size in matches. In a 16 v 16 scenario, there is not much room for specialization. This is especially the case with the larger maps.
Too many times, you will have to spread your team out to hold objectives which limits the composition of your squads.
Take a PC team for example. This is typically made up of 2-3 vehicle users which means that you have 13-14 infantry to hold at least 3 points over the match. Given the amount of fighting that occurs around those points, it is typically brawler types that are the most effective. If the player counts were expanded, it would lead to the ability to add more diverse suits and play styles to the mix.
One of the biggest hurdles is going to be making assaults actually the preferable choice as a dps dealer. They have to have some advantage as far as bonuses that a logi cannot achieve.
Lets look at each suit bonus as it would pertain to this type of play (based on limited information about changes to suits)
Assault [5% reduction to PG/CPU cost of light/sidearm weapons] - Caldari Assault: +5% to reload speed of hybrid railgun light/sidearm weapons per level.
This will have minimal impact in most fights. The caldari assault would only be chosen if its fitting abilities allowed for it to have better gank or tank over other assaults. Changes to the rail rifle would have a massive impact on the use of this suit which makes it very risky.
- Gallente Assault: 5% reduction to hybrid - blaster light/sidearm hip-fire dispersion and kick per level.
Hip fire for the assault rifle is something that is used in tight quarters so I can see how this would be a benefit for Gallente Assaults. Also, taking into account that the AR has not suffered as much from the nerf/buff cycle as other weapons, it would be a much safer choice for players.
- Minmatar Assault: +5% to projectile light/sidearm clip size per level.
This is probably the most balanced approach aside from the Amarr to an assault suit though it still does not make it that much better than a logistics. When taken into account, this is a better bonus than reload speed as it allows for much more dps given on an attacking enemy and especially the heavies. Still, unless something is done about the extremely tight fitting abilities of the suit, it will be left aside.
- Amarr Assault: 5% reduction to laser weaponry heat build-up per level.
Like the Cal Assault, the Amarr is dependent on the abilities of the weapons it is using. While the SCR has not fallen victim to the cycle too much, the laser rifle has been collecting dust for months.
Logistics [5% reduction to PG/CPU cost of equipment] - Caldari Logistics: +10% to nanohive max. nanites and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level.
Nanohives, while great for pub matches, are limited in PC. Clones just dont live long enough for ammo replenishment to be of much use. The possible exploit with this are logistics that armor tank and use the triage hives as self armor repair. This would make the Cal Logi preferable over the Cal Assault as a frontline fighter.
- Gallente Logistics: +10% to active scanner visibility duration and +5% to active scanner precision per level.
As the scanners have not been nerfed as far as db rating from what I have seen, the Gal Logi will again be a prime choice for competitive play. If the slots are not changed, then it will still be able to massively armor tank while loading up on damage mods in the highs. Given that it is only missing out on hipfire dispersion for ARs compared to the assault, it is a better frontline fighter than the Gal Assault.
- Minmatar Logistics: +10% to repair tool range and 5% to repair amount per level.
The Minmatar Logistics will get the most niche bonus out of all of the suits offered for competitive play. The focus on the repair tool means that they would only be good when coupled with an armor tanked heavy. Their bonus to speed is nullified as they will be limited to the speed of the heavy. This will mean that they will be the last choice of all of the logistics suits. The Minmatar suits will be black sheep if the current fitting limitations are kept.
- Amarr Logistics: 10% reduction to drop uplink spawn time and +2 to max. spawn count per level.
The Amarr Logistics will be heavily used in competitive play based on the abilities that it gives with uplinks which is crucial.
So, what does this all mean? Logistics are still the winners out of all of the new suit stats simply due to the fact that their abilities give aide to a battle with almost no detriment to their ability to deal DPS. Also, they are not as reliant on the nerf/buff cycle of weapons as assaults are due to their bonuses.
Most players will either be using Gal or Amarr Logis with a Cal here and there. The Min Logis will only see play if the team uses armor heavies to some extent but that is completely dependent on the nerf/buff of the HMG.
The bonuses to assaults means that there will be a very high sensitivity from the playerbase to what the devs do to their weapons. As many younger characters do not have the SP to skill into multiple suits, they might find that their suit and weapon of choice have become almost unusable if the nerf hammer hits them too hard. This might lead to them quitting the game if all they feel is frustration.
This is why I feel the only way to balance logis and assaults is to lower the dps of all weapons and give assaults a bonus in that regards. It balances out their lack of multiple equipment and tight fittings. Logis will move to what they are supposed to be in giving logistical advantages to the team and can still support in firefights but at a lesser extent than assaults. The logi will still see play in PC with their bonuses to equipment (especially Amarr and Gallente).
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
741
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Posted - 2014.02.12 20:22:00 -
[26] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:With Caldari Assault to 5 and Reload to 5:
The Bolt Pistol will reload in 1.35 seconds. That is only about 3 times the normal delay between shots (ROF is 0.4) Damage per shot ranges from 135 to 148.5.
Not to mention what it will do to the Tactical Sniper Rifle.
The Magsec SMG will reload in 1.6 seconds, which is not half bad either.
Again...the reload time reduction is significant but I can get the exact same stats plus damage buff with the CalCommando.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2475
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Posted - 2014.02.13 13:57:00 -
[27] - Quote
Canari Elphus wrote: Stuff You make a strong argument Canari Elphus. There are a few details I might dispute, but the overall argument is solid. So were you thinking a 2% per level damage bonus for Assault suits?
I like the flavour of the current racial assault suit bonuses, but I agree they are probably not significant enough for someone to pick an Assault suit over a logi suit. I mean when Minmitar Assault had the bonus to sidearm clip size there were some of us using SMG as primary weapon on those suits, but most did not bother. It added flavour, but was not an important enough bonus to make you feel like you had to take advantage of it. These bonuses feel the same way.
But your suggested damage bonus for Assault suits is different. People who want to do max damage will go for the assault suit. Normally I donGÇÖt like straight damage bonuses, but in this case, to define Assault as GÇ£the Damage classGÇ¥, I think the simple and obvious approach might be best. I think 2% per level, essentially a built in Complex Damage mod at max level, would be the way to go.
Even if they kept all the currently proposed bonuses and just added a second class bonus of 1% damage per level, that might be enough. It would only be the equivalent of an Enhanced Damage mod, but without a stacking penalty.
Of course Weapon damage would have to be reduced as you say, and the effect this would have on Scout suits would have to be looked at as well.
Fox Gaden: DUST Wall of Fame, 2014
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2475
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Posted - 2014.02.13 14:00:00 -
[28] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:Again...the reload time reduction is significant but I can get the exact same stats plus damage buff with the CalCommando. Can you think of a bonus that could be applied to Rail weapons that would be equivalent to the other bonuses other than reload speed? I mean without changed all the bonuses to something completely different?
Fox Gaden: DUST Wall of Fame, 2014
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Canari Elphus
Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance
1157
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Posted - 2014.02.13 14:27:00 -
[29] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Canari Elphus wrote: Stuff You make a strong argument Canari Elphus. There are a few details I might dispute, but the overall argument is solid. So were you thinking a 2% per level damage bonus for Assault suits? I like the flavour of the current racial assault suit bonuses, but I agree they are probably not significant enough for someone to pick an Assault suit over a logi suit. I mean when Minmitar Assault had the bonus to sidearm clip size there were some of us using SMG as primary weapon on those suits, but most did not bother. It added flavour, but was not an important enough bonus to make you feel like you had to take advantage of it. These bonuses feel the same way. But your suggested damage bonus for Assault suits is different. People who want to do max damage will go for the assault suit. Normally I donGÇÖt like straight damage bonuses, but in this case, to define Assault as GÇ£the Damage classGÇ¥, I think the simple and obvious approach might be best. I think 2% per level, essentially a built in Complex Damage mod at max level, would be the way to go. Even if they kept all the currently proposed bonuses and just added a second class bonus of 1% damage per level, that might be enough. It would only be the equivalent of an Enhanced Damage mod, but without a stacking penalty. Of course Weapon damage would have to be reduced as you say, and the effect this would have on Scout suits would have to be looked at as well.
I think a mixed bonus would be appropriate for assaults. One for the role and one for the racial.
These are a couple spitball ideas:
Minmitar: Assault Suit Bonus - 1% damage to projectile and explosive weapons Minmatar Bonus - 2% bonus to dropsuit sprint speed
Caldari: Assault Suit Bonus - 1% damage to hybrid weapons (EVE bonus can be used for blasters and rails) Caldari Bonus - 5% bonus to shield recharge delay
Gallente: Assault Suit Bonus - 1% damage to hybrid weapons Gallente Bonus - 2% bonus to armor plating
Amarr: Assault Suit Bonus - 1% damage to laser weapons Amarr Bonus - 5% bonus to laser weapon heat build up
I agree that scouts will need to have their bonuses looked at but the total 5% damage bonus is not enough to make them useless. Their new cloaking ability will allow them to get the drop on other suits which could more than make up for the damage advantage of assaults.
This is why I wish we had access to private test servers to test these adjustments.
Canari Elphus for CPM1
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Kevall Longstride
DUST University Ivy League
981
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Posted - 2014.02.13 16:21:00 -
[30] - Quote
Having two racial bonuses is not a good idea at the moment and once again I think that wishing is father of the thought.
Having a role bonus common to all suits in a role plus 1 racial bonus is easier to understand and more importantly to balance. And with the TTK problems we have, the last thing we need right now is a DPS increase across a whole role.
Beside having two racial bonuses is likely to the purview of the pirate faction suits when they arrive.
Mercenary Clone of Dennie Fleetfoot
CEO of DUST University
CPM1 candidate
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