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How BPOs could be fixed ASAP and bridging the manufacturing gap

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Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2149	Posted - 2014.02.10 14:15:00 - [1] - Quote It's been said by CCP and others many times that BPOs break the game economy because they provide a free unlimited supply of items (albeit low value ones but the value is irrelevant in the big picture anyway). However, BPOs are an intrisic part of the New Eden universe and could continue to be a fantastic way for CCP to bring in revenue. The following idea does not vary hugely from the current/old situation and potentially could be implemented in time for fanfest (depending on what is already lined up for dev sprints over the next few months): 1) Create BPOs for every single item in the game (excluding officer salvage) 2) Make them cost many millions of isk / lots of aurum 3) BPOs no longer provide free unlimited items but players get the BPO'd items for much cheaper than the BPC market value 4) BPCs are still available from the main market at current prices (or increased prices, whatever) The next step would be to provide players with the ability to purchase manufacturing materials from NPC (and later Eve) mining corps, which would be required to create items from BPO plans. This would restore BPOs to useful items both to players and CCP without breaking the economy or future possibilities of the player market; in fact it would provide a starting platform for both manufacturing and the player market as well as fitting in well with the way BPOs and BPCs have worked in Eve for years. Some caveats to control the effect of BPOs on the current game economy could be: - Militia BPOs cost up to 10 million isk each - Standard BPOs cost up to 50 million isk each - Advanced BPOs cost up to 100 million isk each - Proto BPOs are extremely rare salvage only (say 0.01% chance) Up to Advanced BPOs could have a 0.1% salvage chance. A new BPO section could be added to the marketplace with up to Advanced BPOs available for aurum of similar values to what they were before they were removed from the market. The price of items created from BPOs could be 1/2 of the market price making them long term investments, so players buying them would feel like they have to keep playing to get the full value of what they have bought. In the future, when we have a player market, manufacturing time and materials cost could be added, so that players can't just quickly flood the market with cheap gear and undermine the economy. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Drapedup Drippedout 0uter.Heaven 350	Posted - 2014.02.10 14:26:00 - [2] - Quote BPO's were fixed when they removed them from the market. Neighborhood Bully prof 5 "Gimme yo lunch money"
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2191	Posted - 2014.02.10 14:29:00 - [3] - Quote I'd be fine with this, but I don't think it's a quick solution. It would probably take a long time to implement. Also, do people really think 600-3000 isk is breaking the economy? "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2150	Posted - 2014.02.10 14:35:00 - [4] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: I'd be fine with this, but I don't think it's a quick solution. It would probably take a long time to implement. Also, do people really think 600-3000 isk is breaking the economy? Restore BPOs - make refilling them cost isk; can't imagine a quicker way of getting BPOs back into the game. Granted, I have no idea how backed up CCPs sprint plans are but 3 months for a change like this seems reasonable. And yes, 600-3000 isk when multiplied by the many thousands of times they are used and lost every day is breaking the economy. However, that is not the only point - this is not only fixing a broken part of the game; it's extending it and providing a platform for the future of the game. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Aikuchi Tomaru Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1747	Posted - 2014.02.10 14:36:00 - [5] - Quote Fixed ASAP -> Needs a lot of new mechanics and items. Sign up for Caldari FW and defeat the evil Gallente Overlords!
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2150	Posted - 2014.02.10 14:36:00 - [6] - Quote Drapedup Drippedout wrote: BPO's were fixed when they removed them from the market. They were not fixed by being removed because thosuands of people already had the BPOs and continue to use them on a daily basis. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2150	Posted - 2014.02.10 14:39:00 - [7] - Quote Aikuchi Tomaru wrote: Fixed ASAP -> Needs a lot of new mechanics and items. 1 new mechanic - BPO refills cost isk. 2 if you include the salvage part. Yes, lots of new items but if the number is a problem, they can just restore all the old BPOs to the market that already exist on the server and add the other new BPOs later. If you come up with a faster useful solution, please share it. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Yelhsa Jin-Mao Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 331	Posted - 2014.02.10 14:39:00 - [8] - Quote I have 62 BPOs and you can't have any of them! I can has ISK
THUNDERGROOVE ZionTCD 491	Posted - 2014.02.10 14:41:00 - [9] - Quote Remove all free suits while you're at it, does nothing but ruin the economy Director of ZionTCD Amarr Logi \| Amarr Sentinel \| Amarr Scout (SoonGäó) TDBS
Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 3008	Posted - 2014.02.10 14:43:00 - [10] - Quote For Blueprint Originals to not disrupt a future economy they will require a bill of materials in order to produce. The simplest material would be some form of 'nanite base'. Actually, all BPO and BPC should require this. How is this introduced to the battlefield? The simplest is just to tax each use and assume that whoever brought in the MCC and placed the supply depots and CRUs loaded them with the base material and then charge you. Once player made MCCs, depots and CRUS are added then each would have a reserve of the base material. There should then be a limit to the material just as teams must commit biomass to the PC battles. Then you can either tie this items to the EVE economy or add material acquisition to PVE. // Lance Commander // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana

Drapedup Drippedout 0uter.Heaven 350	Posted - 2014.02.10 14:45:00 - [11] - Quote Simple...attach the value of the standard item to the bpo so that when it's lost in battle it doesn't cost the owner, but still ads the isk to the payout pool at the end of the match. CCP put bpo's in the game to make money, they made A LOT of money off of them. Why should the community have to deal with CCP not having the foresight and fortitude to realize that they made the mistake? Fix it so suit lost still produces ISK payout, but BPO's should not cost owner anything to use. They should not be consumable in any regard. Neighborhood Bully prof 5 "Gimme yo lunch money"
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2150	Posted - 2014.02.10 14:45:00 - [12] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: For Blueprint Originals to not disrupt a future economy they will require a bill of materials in order to produce. The simplest material would be some form of 'nanite base'. Actually, all BPO and BPC should require this. How is this introduced to the battlefield? The simplest is just to tax each use and assume that whoever brought in the MCC and placed the supply depots and CRUs loaded them with the base material and then charge you. Once player made MCCs, depots and CRUS are added then each would have a reserve of the base material. There should then be a limit to the material just as teams must commit biomass to the PC battles. Then you can either tie this items to the EVE economy or add material acquisition to PVE. Getting a bit ahead of me here but the basic principles hold. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2150	Posted - 2014.02.10 14:49:00 - [13] - Quote Drapedup Drippedout wrote: Simple...attach the value of the standard item to the bpo so that when it's lost in battle it doesn't cost the owner, but still ads the isk to the payout pool at the end of the match. CCP put bpo's in the game to make money, they made A LOT of money off of them. Why should the community have to deal with CCP not having the foresight and fortitude to realize that they made the mistake? Fix it so suit lost still produces ISK payout, but BPO's should not cost owner anything to use. They should not be consumable in any regard. The problem is not the BPOs not adding to payout; the problem is people getting free unlimited items. Free stuff = no risk = broken risk <> reward mechanics Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Nirwanda Vaughns 323	Posted - 2014.02.10 14:49:00 - [14] - Quote been on about this since the issue of removing bpos from market. to bring htem in immediatly and to help those of us find a purpose for all the junk salavage we get then do as you say. introduce BPOs for every item in game for a high AUR price. seeing as our mercs live in stations allow us to both reprocess items in order to build from the bpos. manufaturing skill gives +1 manufacturing job per level manufacturing efficiency +10% per level items produced per cycle refining efficiency +10% materials recovered from reprocessing then as the game grows we could receive materials from the PvE drone infestation mode and when market opens up noobs could use manufacturing as a side income to help them get hold of cheap suits Proto and proud!!
knight of 6 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1376	Posted - 2014.02.10 14:49:00 - [15] - Quote ugh care bear sht. okay lets play this game I mine in null (no really I do). I can get any mineral I choose and ship it back to hi-sec for manufacturing or manufacture it in null and ship the product to local market. there are two ways to do a dust market: 1: the market is decentralized items can be listed at any market hub and mercs can buy them and have them show up in the inventory auto magically cause mercs can't move and don't really have any need to. 2: a centralized market, items intended for mercenary use must be brought to a system containing mercs to be sold turning mercenary systems into massive trade hubs. this next part of the thought experiment assumes that there is a 1:1 ratio of mat value to product value (I.E a 100K dropsuit is worth 100K in materials) in market option one there is no shipping cost I mine, refine, manufacture, and sell everything from null. so if I mine 500 mill worth of mats (I mine and ship in blocks of 500 mil) and create 500 mil worth of suits then contract them to knight of 6 for the low cost of zero isk I would have 8771 prototype dropsuits... and you think proto stomping is bad now. I need to go to class, I'll finish this post later expect an edit, but you can see where this is going... "God favors the side with the best artillery"* ~ Napoleon Ko6, scout. CLOSED BETA VET
Korvin Lomont United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 602	Posted - 2014.02.10 14:53:00 - [16] - Quote Before we start fixing the drastical influence of BPO's that save a few thousend ISk per battle, CCP should fix PCQ farming where everyday MILLIONS of ISK is thrown in economy for free day by day (BTW what economy???)
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2150	Posted - 2014.02.10 14:59:00 - [17] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: ugh care bear sh*t. okay lets play this game I mine in null (no really I do). I can get any mineral I choose and ship it back to hi-sec for manufacturing or manufacture it in null and ship the product to local market. there are two ways to do a dust market: 1: the market is decentralized items can be listed at any market hub and mercs can buy them and have them show up in the inventory auto magically cause mercs can't move and don't really have any need to. 2: a centralized market, items intended for mercenary use must be brought to a system containing mercs to be sold turning mercenary systems into massive trade hubs. this next part of the thought experiment assumes that there is a 1:1 ratio of mat value to product value (I.E a 100K dropsuit is worth 100K in materials) in market option one there is no shipping cost I mine, refine, manufacture, and sell everything from null. so if I mine 500 mill worth of mats (I mine and ship in blocks of 500 mil) and create 500 mil worth of suits then contract them to knight of 6 for the low cost of zero isk I would have 8771 prototype dropsuits... and you think proto stomping is bad now. I need to go to class, I'll finish this post later expect an edit, but you can see where this is going... The Eve <> Dust link would need to be complete before anything like this could be done and please note that I mentioned proto BPOs would only be available as extremely rare salvage. Keep it to the basics for now - BPOs available, cost isk to refill and lots to buy the BPO itself. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Nirwanda Vaughns 323	Posted - 2014.02.10 14:59:00 - [18] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: ugh care bear sh*t. okay lets play this game I mine in null (no really I do). I can get any mineral I choose and ship it back to hi-sec for manufacturing or manufacture it in null and ship the product to local market. there are two ways to do a dust market: 1: the market is decentralized items can be listed at any market hub and mercs can buy them and have them show up in the inventory auto magically cause mercs can't move and don't really have any need to. 2: a centralized market, items intended for mercenary use must be brought to a system containing mercs to be sold turning mercenary systems into massive trade hubs. this next part of the thought experiment assumes that there is a 1:1 ratio of mat value to product value (I.E a 100K dropsuit is worth 100K in materials) in market option one there is no shipping cost I mine, refine, manufacture, and sell everything from null. so if I mine 500 mill worth of mats (I mine and ship in blocks of 500 mil) and create 500 mil worth of suits then contract them to knight of 6 for the low cost of zero isk I would have 8771 prototype dropsuits... and you think proto stomping is bad now. I need to go to class, I'll finish this post later expect an edit, but you can see where this is going... idea i had for making the market 'lore friendly' for us mercs is that when we buy/sell stuf off market the item is 'delivered' to/for us by NPC freighters in a given time limit so i could set up a sell order in the next region over (15jumps for example) and it will take 5mins per jump and a jump fee per jump for the items to arrive and become available for sale. as you probs see in eve there are npc caravans and atm our warbarges are moved immediatly by NPC that way it encourages sellign in home stations to reduce the cost of settign up the items further away Proto and proud!!
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2150	Posted - 2014.02.10 15:00:00 - [19] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: Before we start fixing the drastical influence of BPO's that save a few thousend ISk per battle, CCP should fix PCQ farming where everyday MILLIONS of ISK is thrown in economy for free day by day (BTW what economy???) There's nothing to say both can not be fixed at the same time - there's more than 1 dev at CCP. Both these things must be fixed before this game can be considered to have a working economy. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2150	Posted - 2014.02.10 15:03:00 - [20] - Quote Good ideas Nirwanda but again getting a little ahead of me there - in order for this to come in at a reasonably quick timescale, we need to add as few new mechanics as possible. Manufacturing materials should come later - for now, just pay a little isk to refill BPOs. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts

Dremel wp Shadow Company HQ Lokun Listamenn 18	Posted - 2014.02.10 15:19:00 - [21] - Quote If there is to be a player run economy, and blueprint production is going to be part of it, then realize this means the removal of the unlimited supply of advanced and protype gear from the market. In other words, you won't be able to find this stuff in quantities to use for any and every game, even if you have the money for it. What would the billionaires have to spend their ISK on? Other hand, could reduce the pubstomping, and give older players a different 'game mode' to play that helps them to build their proto/advance gear. http://i.imgur.com/sDVthSP.gif
NextDark Knight Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 181	Posted - 2014.02.10 15:30:00 - [22] - Quote It's not game breaking, The Mega corps that make the weapons pay for the BPO costs to promote the weapons. Forge Changes needed Officer Splash 3.0, Proto 2.7 Advanced 2.5 Standard 2.1. Original ROF needs to return!
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 4439	Posted - 2014.02.10 15:33:00 - [23] - Quote No BPOs for ISK outside the player market. No BPOs for any gear higher than Standard. As long as BPOs remain infinite-use, this is a simple way to avoid them being OP. In terms of breaking the market, no sale of BPOs would solve the problem pretty easily as a short term solution. Below is a better solution for the long term. Introduce mining facilities which collect raw materials. BPOs require these materials to produce BPCs. Infinite BPCs can be created from a BPO, as long as the resources are available. Adding materials to the NPC market provides a measure of stability to prices - players won't buy from one another unless they're undercutting NPC prices, so players can't artificially inflate the cost of running BPOs. Larger corporations will be able to control territory and produce materials, making their BPO operating costs less than those of the smaller corps who have to buy the materials to use. Either option will be cheaper than buying the regular items repeatedly. PvE raids on NPC mining facilities could be added as an alternative method of acquiring resources for BPOs. This could expand into a hybrid game-mode with a later introduction of defense contracts on mining facilities, where players raiding a facility could be intercepted by another team of players instead of NPC defenses.
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2150	Posted - 2014.02.10 15:34:00 - [24] - Quote Dremel wp wrote: If there is to be a player run economy, and blueprint production is going to be part of it, then realize this means the removal of the unlimited supply of advanced and protype gear from the market. In other words, you won't be able to find this stuff in quantities to use for any and every game, even if you have the money for it. What would the billionaires have to spend their ISK on? Other hand, could reduce the pubstomping, and give older players a different 'game mode' to play that helps them to build their proto/advance gear. Why would the NPC market have to disappear? It can still exist; it will just be out-competed by the player market. And also, never underestimate the power of carebears - there will always be people looking to make a quick buck by keeping a steady supply of gear going. And if stuff gets low on supply, then it'll just become more valuable, encouraging people to build it. That's supply and demand for you. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2150	Posted - 2014.02.10 15:35:00 - [25] - Quote NextDark Knight wrote: It's not game breaking, The Mega corps that make the weapons pay for the BPO costs to promote the weapons. How is unlimited free anything not economy breaking? Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2150	Posted - 2014.02.10 15:40:00 - [26] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: No BPOs for ISK outside the player market. No BPOs for any gear higher than Standard. Introduce mining facilities which collect raw materials. BPOs require these materials to produce BPCs. Infinite BPCs can be created from a BPO, as long as the resources are available. Adding materials to the NPC market provides a measure of stability to prices - players won't buy from one another unless they're undercutting NPC prices, so players can't artificially inflate the cost of running BPOs. Larger corporations will be able to control territory and produce materials, making their BPO operating costs less than those of the smaller corps who have to buy the materials to use. Either option will be cheaper than buying the regular items repeatedly. PvE raids on NPC mining facilities could be added as an alternative method of acquiring resources for BPOs. This could expand into a hybrid game-mode with a later introduction of defense contracts on mining facilities, where players raiding a facility could be intercepted by another team of players instead of NPC defenses. All good points but for way into the future. I do believe though that BPOs should be available for isk (albeit at vast amounts of isk) because otherwise you'll be locking manufacturing and trade away from free to play players and one thing CCP has always promoted for Dust514 is all content open to all players. I don't see any problem with BPOs for higher than standard gear, as long as it's implemented in way that still requires players to spend both time and money to replace every item that is lost. The alternative is to eternally rely on the NPC market to provide high end gear and that means we only get half an economy. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
ANON Cerberus Tiny Toons 338	Posted - 2014.02.10 16:23:00 - [27] - Quote So a blueprint that saves at most a couple of thousand isk is a problem to the economy? Yet PC corps with god knows how many locked districts that still create millions of isk a day in passive form is ok? LOL
Drapedup Drippedout 0uter.Heaven 354	Posted - 2014.02.10 17:06:00 - [28] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Drapedup Drippedout wrote: Simple...attach the value of the standard item to the bpo so that when it's lost in battle it doesn't cost the owner, but still ads the isk to the payout pool at the end of the match. CCP put bpo's in the game to make money, they made A LOT of money off of them. Why should the community have to deal with CCP not having the foresight and fortitude to realize that they made the mistake? Fix it so suit lost still produces ISK payout, but BPO's should not cost owner anything to use. They should not be consumable in any regard. The problem is not the BPOs not adding to payout; the problem is people getting free unlimited items. Free stuff = no risk = broken risk <> reward mechanics Free? I paid money for them -_- Neighborhood Bully prof 5 "Gimme yo lunch money"
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2151	Posted - 2014.02.10 17:14:00 - [29] - Quote ANON Cerberus wrote: So a blueprint that saves at most a couple of thousand isk is a problem to the economy? Yet PC corps with god knows how many locked districts that still create millions of isk a day in passive form is ok? LOL I didn't say free PC isk wasn't a problem - both are and both need fixing if we ever want a fully functional economy. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2151	Posted - 2014.02.10 17:15:00 - [30] - Quote Drapedup Drippedout wrote: Django Quik wrote: Drapedup Drippedout wrote: Simple...attach the value of the standard item to the bpo so that when it's lost in battle it doesn't cost the owner, but still ads the isk to the payout pool at the end of the match. CCP put bpo's in the game to make money, they made A LOT of money off of them. Why should the community have to deal with CCP not having the foresight and fortitude to realize that they made the mistake? Fix it so suit lost still produces ISK payout, but BPO's should not cost owner anything to use. They should not be consumable in any regard. The problem is not the BPOs not adding to payout; the problem is people getting free unlimited items. Free stuff = no risk = broken risk <> reward mechanics Free? I paid money for them -_- Like actual real money. Not this make believe isk stuff As did I but we're talking about the ingame economy, not your penny jar, so this make believe isk stuff is what really matters. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts



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