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A note about Scrambler Rifle Users

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Aisha Ctarl Fatal Absolution Public Disorder. 3203	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:21:00 - [1] - Quote I'm getting real sick and tired of people coming on these forums and accusing SCR users of being modded controller users. It's really starting to come across as an excuse and general butt hurt by the lesser skilled DUST population. Not all SCR users use modded controllers - personally I see no need for it. If you got killed by a SCR faster than your mind could register it is probably due to one or more of the following. 1) You're in a low HP suit and got OHK'ed - I'd recommend you slap some plates on that sucker 2) You're standing still in the open - You're a SCR user's wet dream 3) You're in a shield tanked suit - yes this is similar to number one 4) The SCR user that killed you is simply proficient in this weapon and has become very deadly with it - in short he/she is better than you and you got out skilled Sorry to burst your bubble, but some players are just more skilled with it than others; if you die to one before you even know what is going on, don't immediately label them as a "modded controller user," maybe they have just been using it since 5.14.13 and is their bread and butter. I'm a narcissist, LIKE MY POSTS =^,.,^=
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 6766	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:23:00 - [2] - Quote I just find it wonderful when people send me hate mail, Get Goods, or X message having used a Rail Rifle or Combat Rifle. Combat Rifle has essentially no recoil for its massive RoF RR has AR equivalent DPS out to about 90+m Both with great optics.... How could you not do well with those guns? "Just know that though our enemies may only #YOLO, through God's grace we can #YOLF at his side." - Disciple of Kesha
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 410	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:25:00 - [3] - Quote Aisha Ctarl wrote: I'm getting real sick and tired of people coming on these forums and accusing SCR users of being modded controller users. It's really starting to come across as an excuse and general butt hurt by the lesser skilled DUST population. Not all SCR users use modded controllers - personally I see no need for it. If you got killed by a SCR faster than your mind could register it is probably due to one or more of the following. 1) You're in a low HP suit and got OHK'ed - I'd recommend you slap some plates on that sucker 2) You're standing still in the open - You're a SCR user's wet dream 3) You're in a shield tanked suit - yes this is similar to number one 4) The SCR user that killed you is simply proficient in this weapon and has become very deadly with it - in short he/she is better than you and you got out skilled Sorry to burst your bubble, but some players are just more skilled with it than others; if you die to one before you even know what is going on, don't immediately label them as a "modded controller user," maybe they have just been using it since 5.14.13 and is their bread and butter. Plus a modded ScR will overheat/stop firing in about a second, meaning if he/she misses a couple of times he/she is now helpless for 5-6 seconds. Also, a CR would be more deadly with a properly modded controller, it does a full 25% more damage per trigger pull, can fire for 3 seconds straight, and doesn't overheat. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Lynn Beck Granite Mercenary Division Top Men. 694	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:29:00 - [4] - Quote My only beef with SCR is your ability to out Burst-DPS a shotgun/cr/knife user that can't 1hko you and your 1100 HP. You can instantly deal 1700 damage(thats my average OH- at 16 shots, dealing 78 damage base, not to mention the buildup of tiers and dmg mods) You have high ehp, ALONG WITH supreme gank. The very existence of Amarr outmodes any reason for running a minmatar setup. Under 28db Officially nerfproof (predicting CR nerf February '14) Selling SP: 10k SP per 100k ISK.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 6767	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:31:00 - [5] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: My only beef with SCR is your ability to out Burst-DPS a shotgun/cr/knife user that can't 1hko you and your 1100 HP. You can instantly deal 1700 damage(thats my average OH- at 16 shots, dealing 78 damage base, not to mention the buildup of tiers and dmg mods) You have high ehp, ALONG WITH supreme gank. The very existence of Amarr outmodes any reason for running a minmatar setup. Really.....as I see it the massive disparity between sprint speed, Minmatar capacity for gank, and CR being outright top dog out to 60m....... I don't ever see why the Minmatar players would ever have a reason to *****. "Just know that though our enemies may only #YOLO, through God's grace we can #YOLF at his side." - Disciple of Kesha
AddictPunk Nyain San Renegade Alliance 11	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:35:00 - [6] - Quote I'm the one that uses Carthum + 3 damage mods complex & prof lvl 5?
Aisha Ctarl Fatal Absolution Public Disorder. 3203	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:35:00 - [7] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: My only beef with SCR is your ability to out Burst-DPS a shotgun/cr/knife user that can't 1hko you and your 1100 HP. You can instantly deal 1700 damage(thats my average OH- at 16 shots, dealing 78 damage base, not to mention the buildup of tiers and dmg mods) You have high ehp, ALONG WITH supreme gank. The very existence of Amarr outmodes any reason for running a minmatar setup. If I have 1100 eHP on an Advanced Amarr suit there's a problem that CCP needs to look into because I'd be a hacker. If I have 1100 eHP on an Amarr Proto Assault a.k0, there is also a problem so I'm gonna go ahead and stop you from spreading that BS right now. Usually when a SCR user is snuck up on by a NK, CR, or Shotgun user, the SCR user won't take the time to charge a shot, but simply spam in the general direction of the threat - if he/she takes out the NK, CR, or Shotgun user, then by all means that poor sap sucks complete ass at the game. Supreme Tank AND Gank is rewarded to the Gallente as well there chief. Once again - excuses and butt hurt. I'm a narcissist, LIKE MY POSTS =^,.,^=
xSir Campsalotx G0DS AM0NG MEN 108	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:37:00 - [8] - Quote Yes per trigger cr does more but not dps wise, also im pretty sure heat build up is per second not per shot, and lol skilled there were hardly any SCR users before auto aim and the few that did use it were meh. Just to show I have no bias in this Prof 4 SCR, prof 2 Duvolle, prof 3 rail, prof 3 CR. Do I think it's OP... Only on the Amarr assualt which is how it should be but Im almost certain many people use modded controllers. Look at the old duvolle tac its rof got reduced and surprise everyone stops using it.
Michael Arck Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu 3098	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:37:00 - [9] - Quote LOL yea Aisha...stop it in its track!! Don't let them what they did to my beloved like they will do to yours. I'm so upset right now. I just can't believe it. Thanks to the dummies who continually try their hardest to turn this game into a cream puff. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. For the State!! [email protected]
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 6767	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:38:00 - [10] - Quote AddictPunk wrote: I'm the one that uses Carthum + 3 damage mods complex & prof lvl 5? You corp is the closest thing this game has to pirates. I am not wholly unsurprised. "Just know that though our enemies may only #YOLO, through God's grace we can #YOLF at his side." - Disciple of Kesha

Aisha Ctarl Fatal Absolution Public Disorder. 3203	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:41:00 - [11] - Quote xSir Campsalotx wrote: Yes per trigger cr does more but not dps wise, also im pretty sure heat build up is per second not per shot, and lol skilled there were hardly any SCR users before auto aim and the few that did use it were meh. Just to show I have no bias in this Prof 4 SCR, prof 2 Duvolle, prof 3 rail, prof 3 CR. Do I think it's OP... Only on the Amarr assualt which is how it should be but Im almost certain many people use modded controllers. Look at the old duvolle tac its rof got reduced and surprise everyone stops using it. The reason that no one uses the TAC AR anymore is not that it got a ROF nerf, it is the fact it got a magazine nerf as well. Eighteen rounds isn't really much to go on. I'm a narcissist, LIKE MY POSTS =^,.,^=
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2171	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:41:00 - [12] - Quote Aisha Ctarl wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: My only beef with SCR is your ability to out Burst-DPS a shotgun/cr/knife user that can't 1hko you and your 1100 HP. You can instantly deal 1700 damage(thats my average OH- at 16 shots, dealing 78 damage base, not to mention the buildup of tiers and dmg mods) You have high ehp, ALONG WITH supreme gank. The very existence of Amarr outmodes any reason for running a minmatar setup. If I have 1100 eHP on an Advanced Amarr suit there's a problem that CCP needs to look into because I'd be a hacker. If I have 1100 eHP on an Amarr Proto Assault a.k0, there is also a problem so I'm gonna go ahead and stop you from spreading that BS right now. Usually when a SCR user is snuck up on by a NK, CR, or Shotgun user, the SCR user won't take the time to charge a shot, but simply spam in the general direction of the threat - if he/she takes out the NK, CR, or Shotgun user, then by all means that poor sap sucks complete ass at the game. Supreme Tank AND Gank is rewarded to the Gallente as well there chief. Once again - excuses and butt hurt. The Gallente Logi, yes. The Gallente Assault, no. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3374	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:42:00 - [13] - Quote Aisha Ctarl wrote: I'm getting real sick and tired of people coming on these forums and accusing SCR users of being modded controller users. It's really starting to come across as an excuse and general butt hurt by the lesser skilled DUST population. Not all SCR users use modded controllers - personally I see no need for it. If you got killed by a SCR faster than your mind could register it is probably due to one or more of the following. 1) You're in a low HP suit and got OHK'ed - I'd recommend you slap some plates on that sucker 2) You're standing still in the open - You're a SCR user's wet dream 3) You're in a shield tanked suit - yes this is similar to number one 4) The SCR user that killed you is simply proficient in this weapon and has become very deadly with it - in short he/she is better than you and you got out skilled Sorry to burst your bubble, but some players are just more skilled with it than others; if you die to one before you even know what is going on, don't immediately label them as a "modded controller user," maybe they have just been using it since 5.14.13 and is their bread and butter. I doubt most Scrambler users have a modded controller, but I think people suspect it because it was pointed out on the forums exactly how you could use a modded controller with one. Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
Cyrius Li-Moody 3325	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:42:00 - [14] - Quote Ganking a nova knifer or shotgun while they have the jump on you isn't exactly hard with a scrambler rifle. Come on now. Most scout suits are around 300 hp. You deal that with a headshot and a body blow before any of those weapons can kill you. Hit detection is god awful for both of those weapons. As for the minnie assault. Come on. A min assault is not beating a scrambler rifle EVER in close quarters if that scrambler rifle user isn't an idiot. It'll only be a halfway decent fight if the minmatar assault gets the jump on the scrambler rifle while he's out in the open. edit: words are hard. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 9093	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:42:00 - [15] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: My only beef with SCR is your ability to out Burst-DPS a shotgun/cr/knife user that can't 1hko you and your 1100 HP. You can instantly deal 1700 damage(thats my average OH- at 16 shots, dealing 78 damage base, not to mention the buildup of tiers and dmg mods) You have high ehp, ALONG WITH supreme gank. The very existence of Amarr outmodes any reason for running a minmatar setup. 1100 HP? 1700 damage alpha? These figures are incorrect. Unless you are talking about a Gallogi or Heavy, you cannot get 1100 HP. And if you tank either of those heavily enough to get that much HP you are not dealing 1700 damage alpha. Hell, with triple damage mods prof 5 does not do 1700 alpha. That is not 'instantly'. Cody Sietz wrote: Aisha Ctarl wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: My only beef with SCR is your ability to out Burst-DPS a shotgun/cr/knife user that can't 1hko you and your 1100 HP. You can instantly deal 1700 damage(thats my average OH- at 16 shots, dealing 78 damage base, not to mention the buildup of tiers and dmg mods) You have high ehp, ALONG WITH supreme gank. The very existence of Amarr outmodes any reason for running a minmatar setup. If I have 1100 eHP on an Advanced Amarr suit there's a problem that CCP needs to look into because I'd be a hacker. If I have 1100 eHP on an Amarr Proto Assault a.k0, there is also a problem so I'm gonna go ahead and stop you from spreading that BS right now. Usually when a SCR user is snuck up on by a NK, CR, or Shotgun user, the SCR user won't take the time to charge a shot, but simply spam in the general direction of the threat - if he/she takes out the NK, CR, or Shotgun user, then by all means that poor sap sucks complete ass at the game. Supreme Tank AND Gank is rewarded to the Gallente as well there chief. Once again - excuses and butt hurt. The Gallente Logi, yes. The Gallente Assault, no. This. ZATARA CARRIES US ALL Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution MAG Raven
Soldier Sorajord Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION 59	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:44:00 - [16] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: My only beef with SCR is your ability to out Burst-DPS a shotgun/cr/knife user that can't 1hko you and your 1100 HP. You can instantly deal 1700 damage(thats my average OH- at 16 shots, dealing 78 damage base, not to mention the buildup of tiers and dmg mods) You have high ehp, ALONG WITH supreme gank. The very existence of Amarr outmodes any reason for running a minmatar setup. But that same fact leads to a high heatup. Your best amarr knows when to charge his shots and when to rapid fire. Sora's the name. Gallente is my game. Yup! Gallente Specialist Here :) Chromosome Veteran *Subsonic.*
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 6767	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:50:00 - [17] - Quote Soldier Sorajord wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: My only beef with SCR is your ability to out Burst-DPS a shotgun/cr/knife user that can't 1hko you and your 1100 HP. You can instantly deal 1700 damage(thats my average OH- at 16 shots, dealing 78 damage base, not to mention the buildup of tiers and dmg mods) You have high ehp, ALONG WITH supreme gank. The very existence of Amarr outmodes any reason for running a minmatar setup. But that same fact leads to a high heatup. Your best amarr knows when to charge his shots and when to rapid fire. Even then we cannot reach the insane alpha this guy is trying to say we can..... "Just know that though our enemies may only #YOLO, through God's grace we can #YOLF at his side." - Disciple of Kesha
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1873	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:51:00 - [18] - Quote Are that many people really using modded controllers? I doubt it. I will tell you however what is really happening, ScR users are holding the charge, while some spams scanners. This is why the Scanner functions need an overhaul. This is why the ScR needs a penalty for holding the chare for longer than 10secs. Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Cyrius Li-Moody 3326	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:53:00 - [19] - Quote I've been hit with a burst for over 1900 damage by a viziam in a split second. The game doesn't exactly calculate damage correctly most of the time. Most of the time viziams will burst you down ~1200 though. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Aisha Ctarl Fatal Absolution Public Disorder. 3204	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:55:00 - [20] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Are that many people really using modded controllers? I doubt it. I will tell you however what is really happening, ScR users are holding the charge, while some spams scanners. This is why the Scanner functions need an overhaul. This is why the ScR needs a penalty for holding the chare for longer than 10secs. I won't lie - I am guilty of holding the charge, hell, I'll wait and walking around corners still holding a charge, but I wasn't aware of the scanner thing because I usually run solo. I'm a narcissist, LIKE MY POSTS =^,.,^=

Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 413	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:55:00 - [21] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: My only beef with SCR is your ability to out Burst-DPS a shotgun/cr/knife user that can't 1hko you and your 1100 HP. You can instantly deal 1700 damage(thats my average OH- at 16 shots, dealing 78 damage base, not to mention the buildup of tiers and dmg mods) You have high ehp, ALONG WITH supreme gank. The very existence of Amarr outmodes any reason for running a minmatar setup. #1 you assume a modded controller. If you do some goolge searching, you will find average clicks-per-second at 5.0-6.0, meaning that the ScR is doing 430 DPS at standard for the non-cheaters. If you also use this trigger speed for the CR, you will notice that it does 576 DPS. The difference beyond the OVERWHELMING DPS ADVANTAGE the CR has for non-cheaters? The CR will not overheat... period. The ScR will overheat in under 3 seconds, and you will be defenseless for another 5-6 seconds afterwards. So to recap: Unless you use a turbo controller CR > ScR DPS CR > ScR skill required CR > ScR overheat CR > ScR sustained DPS (more than double) CR > ScR fitting requirements ScR > CR charged shot ScR > CR range. Yeah that looks just a bit one sided. While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Protocake JR Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 1314	Posted - 2014.02.07 21:57:00 - [22] - Quote I want to add to the list. It's also possible that you are being team fired upon. It's also possible that network related lag isn't allowing the game to tell you that you are being shot at. By the time the game tells you that you are taking damage, you are already 90% dead. These near instant kills aren't exclusive to the SCR. I've been killed faster than I can do a 180 degree turn (I have the sensitivity maxed), while strafing, in a 700+ hp suit, by a militia assault rifle user who just got his first kill after dying 17 times in a row. The PC and SL should fit into the Sidearm slot so it's accessible and practical to carry one. AV spam vs V spam
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1873	Posted - 2014.02.07 22:01:00 - [23] - Quote Aisha Ctarl wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Are that many people really using modded controllers? I doubt it. I will tell you however what is really happening, ScR users are holding the charge, while some spams scanners. This is why the Scanner functions need an overhaul. This is why the ScR needs a penalty for holding the chare for longer than 10secs. I won't lie - I am guilty of holding the charge, hell, I'll wait and walking around corners still holding a charge, but I wasn't aware of the scanner thing because I usually run solo. Is frequent among wolfpacks. One spams scanners, while the rest hold a charge, you walk round a corner and dead, no matter the suit you wear. Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 2519	Posted - 2014.02.07 22:01:00 - [24] - Quote Where was this thread when people were bitching about the TAC rifle You can bomb it, you can strafe it, you can cover it with poison, you can turn it into glass, but you don't own it unles
Lea Silencio 0uter.Heaven Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 1273	Posted - 2014.02.07 22:09:00 - [25] - Quote xSir Campsalotx wrote: Yes per trigger cr does more but not dps wise, also im pretty sure heat build up is per second not per shot, and lol skilled there were hardly any SCR users before auto aim and the few that did use it were meh. Just to show I have no bias in this Prof 4 SCR, prof 2 Duvolle, prof 3 rail, prof 3 CR. Do I think it's OP... Only on the Amarr assualt which is how it should be but Im almost certain many people use modded controllers. Look at the old duvolle tac its rof got reduced and surprise everyone stops using it. 1. Again, to accuse people that run it with the Amarr assault bonus as you "being certain many people use modded controllers" is a false statement, an accusation that you CANNOT prove, and a slap in the face to any SCR user worth their salt who have been in it since day 1. Ignorance at its finest. 2. There are less skilled SCR users than before, with the emergence of the CR and the RR. Fact. Just take a look at the killfeeds next time you are in game. 3. People didn't stop using the TAC because of ROF nerf. They did so because of the horrendous nerf to that weapon's recoil. I know...I used the TAC exclusively up until it happened, even through the dominance of the Creodron breach AR in Mordu's Private Trials. I love my semi-auto weapons. 4. Heat build up is technically per shot with continuous fire, be it fast or slow. If you keep firing without a pause in between, you WILL pop. For someone who has skils invested in each, man...you have no idea what you are talking about in regard to the SCR. Best to either stay quiet or you know, actually TEST your theory before jumping on here with an opinion. PurificationGäó It's what I do. Amarr Victor
Marlin Kirby KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 330	Posted - 2014.02.07 22:21:00 - [26] - Quote Lea Silencio wrote: 3. People didn't stop using the TAC because of ROF nerf. They did so because of the horrendous nerf to that weapon's recoil. I know...I used the TAC exclusively up until it happened, even through the dominance of the Creodron breach AR in Mordu's Private Trials. I love my semi-auto weapons. I didn't start using the TAC until after it got nerfed and the recoil and hip fire made me cry. The not Logic Bomb! -->We need better comms!<--
xSir Campsalotx G0DS AM0NG MEN 108	Posted - 2014.02.07 22:23:00 - [27] - Quote Aisha Ctarl wrote: xSir Campsalotx wrote: Yes per trigger cr does more but not dps wise, also im pretty sure heat build up is per second not per shot, and lol skilled there were hardly any SCR users before auto aim and the few that did use it were meh. Just to show I have no bias in this Prof 4 SCR, prof 2 Duvolle, prof 3 rail, prof 3 CR. Do I think it's OP... Only on the Amarr assualt which is how it should be but Im almost certain many people use modded controllers. Look at the old duvolle tac its rof got reduced and surprise everyone stops using it. The reason that no one uses the TAC AR anymore is not that it got a ROF nerf, it is the fact it got a magazine nerf as well. Eighteen rounds isn't really much to go on. Buff that rof to the way it used to be, it will have similar dps as scrambler with no overheat I'd use it and I suspect so would the community.
Lea Silencio 0uter.Heaven Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 1273	Posted - 2014.02.07 22:24:00 - [28] - Quote Marlin Kirby wrote: Lea Silencio wrote: 3. People didn't stop using the TAC because of ROF nerf. They did so because of the horrendous nerf to that weapon's recoil. I know...I used the TAC exclusively up until it happened, even through the dominance of the Creodron breach AR in Mordu's Private Trials. I love my semi-auto weapons. I didn't start using the TAC until after it got nerfed and the recoil and hip fire made me cry. I am so sorry about that, bud. No one told you it was awful? No warning at all? Yeah, I had to put it down after they over-nerfed that recoil. I like precision weapons and the TAC turned into the furthest thing from one. I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, I swear. It made me sad/bitter. Lol. PurificationGäó It's what I do. Amarr Victor
Magnus Amadeuss Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 414	Posted - 2014.02.07 22:24:00 - [29] - Quote You know Lynn: I know for some reason you are super anti-amarr and all but why are you looking at the problem of modded controllers and thinking, "Nerf amarr?" If you were to say suggest to cap the RoF for all single shot weapons at say 400 RPM (6.666 rounds per second) I could get on board. The reasoning behind this would be apparent: Nerf any advantage turbo controllers get from weapon RoF. But no, you hate amarr (which no one thinks is overpowered) sooo much that you instantly jump to "nerf amarr." While there is no better place to be wealthy than the Gallente Federation, there is no hell worse for the poor either.
Marlin Kirby KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 330	Posted - 2014.02.07 22:28:00 - [30] - Quote Lea Silencio wrote: Marlin Kirby wrote: Lea Silencio wrote: 3. People didn't stop using the TAC because of ROF nerf. They did so because of the horrendous nerf to that weapon's recoil. I know...I used the TAC exclusively up until it happened, even through the dominance of the Creodron breach AR in Mordu's Private Trials. I love my semi-auto weapons. I didn't start using the TAC until after it got nerfed and the recoil and hip fire made me cry. I am so sorry about that, bud. No one told you it was awful? No warning at all? Yeah, I had to put it down after they over-nerfed that recoil. I like precision weapons and the TAC turned into the furthest thing from one. I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, I swear. It made me sad/bitter. Lol. Oh, I knew it was nerfed. Unforchantly CCP's infamous nerfing track record was not known to me at the time. I figured "it couldn't be that bad." .......it was that bad. The not Logic Bomb! -->We need better comms!<--



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