DUST Search - To The Pilots Fearing The Caldari Sentinels

Atiim wrote:

If I were you, I'd be even more scared of the Minmatar Commando than the Caldari Sentinel.

Here's a bit of theory crafting:

The Minmatar Commando has a +2% bonus to explosive weapons per level, giving a total of 10% extra damage at level 5 (Which is a free Complex Damage Modifier).

2 Complex Damage Mods will grant a total of 19.56% extra damage, plus the extra 10% from the bonus you receive, and an additional 15% extra damage you receive from Proficiency Level V.

That's a grand total of 44.56% additional damage.

Now keep in mind that Swarm Launchers have a +20% damage increased towards armored vehicles, making it a grand total of 64.56% additional damage.

Along with this, the Swarm Launcher AI almost always targets the weak spot of HAVs, which I assume gives a 20% damage boost as well.

That's a whopping 84.56% damage boost towards armored vehicles, and a 64.56% damage boost towards shielded vehicles.

So from my calculations:

2,436HP of damage per volley towards armored vehicles.

2,172HP of damage per volley towards shielded vehicles.

Why else should you be afraid you ask? A Commando has 2 Light Weapon slots and high base HP, meaning a Minmatar Commando user can (and should) be carrying a Swarm Launcher AT ALL TIMES., while not requiring support from a squad for ammo like the Sentinels, as Commando drop-suits also have an equipment slot; and without sacrificing it's Anti-Infantry abilities.

Thought 1.6 was bad? At least then people actually had to go to a Supply Depot.

((This assumes that the Minmatar Commando will have at least 2 high slots at PRO, and the damage mod's stacking penalties were calculated using this tool here.))

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Reav Hannari Red Rock Outriders 2686	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:58:00 - [31] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I am shure when if ever they get around adding a minmatar rocket launcher the caldari one will go back to a kinetic killer. Yes, please. I'll take mine in rust brown. A dozen cases to start with would be just fine. // Venge Captain // Matari Logistics / Scout / Pilot // @ReesNoturana
Aizen Intiki Hell's Gate Inc League of Infamy 716	Posted - 2014.01.20 20:03:00 - [32] - Quote Atiim wrote: Aizen Intiki wrote: lolo, Atiim, swarms never hit the weak spot. Done the math, and they never hit it. Really, because every time I fire at a tank they always hit the back of the tank That is the weak-spot right? NO, the back is not the weak spot. There's a specific spot on the HAV's that's on the back that is the weak spot. They never hit it. "Hello, world!" lol, sounds like something a whore lover would say Alt of the great Godin I like chocolate ^___^
Aizen Intiki Hell's Gate Inc League of Infamy 716	Posted - 2014.01.20 20:03:00 - [33] - Quote Atiim wrote: Aizen Intiki wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I am shure when if ever they get around adding a minmatar rocket launcher the caldari one will go back to a kinetic killer. No, ** rocket launchers. I want a flak cannon to deal with DS's, and future air vehicles. Couldn't we have both? Choices are always best. Fine. But Flak cannon first. "Hello, world!" lol, sounds like something a whore lover would say Alt of the great Godin I like chocolate ^___**^
Jason Pearson 4051	Posted - 2014.01.20 20:05:00 - [34] - Quote Atiim wrote: Atiim wrote: If I were you, I'd be even more scared of the Minmatar Commando than the Caldari Sentinel. Here's a bit of theory crafting: The Minmatar Commando has a +2% bonus to explosive weapons per level, giving a total of 10% extra damage at level 5 (Which is a free Complex Damage Modifier). 2 Complex Damage Mods will grant a total of 19.56% extra damage, plus the extra 10% from the bonus you receive, and an additional 15% extra damage you receive from Proficiency Level V. That's a grand total of 44.56% additional damage. Now keep in mind that Swarm Launchers have a +20% damage increased towards armored vehicles, making it a grand total of 64.56% additional damage. Along with this, the Swarm Launcher AI almost always targets the weak spot of HAVs, which I assume gives a 20% damage boost as well. That's a whopping 84.56% damage boost towards armored vehicles, and a 64.56% damage boost towards shielded vehicles. So from my calculations: 2,436HP of damage per volley towards armored vehicles. 2,172HP of damage per volley towards shielded vehicles. Why else should you be afraid you ask? A Commando has 2 Light Weapon slots and high base HP, meaning a Minmatar Commando user can (and should) be carrying a Swarm Launcher AT ALL TIMES., while not requiring support from a squad for ammo like the Sentinels, as Commando drop-suits also have an equipment slot; and without sacrificing it's Anti-Infantry abilities. Thought 1.6 was bad? At least then people actually had to go to a Supply Depot. ((This assumes that the Minmatar Commando will have at least 2 high slots at PRO, and the damage mod's stacking penalties were calculated using this tool here.)) So what you're saying.. is we don't need to nerf HAVs? yay King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire \\ Bad Mathematician You're a total git, Jason. - kingbabar
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 3717	Posted - 2014.01.20 20:06:00 - [35] - Quote Aizen Intiki wrote: NO, the back is not the weak spot. There's a specific spot on the HAV's that's on the back that is the weak spot. They never hit it. Are you referring to that small crack in between the engine? If they never hit it, then I guess I will have to edit my math again. But later, because I couldn't be bothered right now. What Would Larry Do? He'd probably drink some Quafe... Goes To Refrigerator
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 3717	Posted - 2014.01.20 20:08:00 - [36] - Quote Jason Pearson wrote: So what you're saying.. is we don't need to nerf HAVs? yay Well, in a way yes I am. But doesn't this concern you? 4x Complex Damage Mods with Wyrikomi Breach Forge Guns and Minmatar Commando's dealing about 2.5k HP per swarm. Maybe I should send The Attorney General some mail and ISK saying that he finally won. What Would Larry Do? He'd probably drink some Quafe... Goes To Refrigerator
Lonewolf Heavy ROGUE SPADES 16	Posted - 2014.01.20 20:09:00 - [37] - Quote CCP wolfman already said there was going to be changes to Damage mods so that TTK wouldnt be so low Blueberries are delicious and an essential part of my diet ;) Commando/Heavy Willing to PC for anyone for a low price
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 3720	Posted - 2014.01.20 20:13:00 - [38] - Quote Lonewolf Heavy wrote: CCP wolfman already said there was going to be changes to Damage mods so that TTK wouldn't be so low Oh. Well then he better up the damage on Niche weapons that rely on them, otherwise the rifles would still out-perform them in every way possible. And AV weapons.... They would die. What Would Larry Do? He'd probably drink some Quafe... Goes To Refrigerator
Jason Pearson 4052	Posted - 2014.01.20 20:29:00 - [39] - Quote Atiim wrote: Well, in a way yes I am. But doesn't this concern you? 4x Complex Damage Mods with Wyrikomi Breach Forge Guns and Minmatar Commando's dealing about 2.5k HP per swarm. Maybe I should send The Attorney General some mail and ISK saying that he finally won. Doesn't really. Walk me through how we're going to have these very good suits with high damage and such, You're going to need fully spec'd suits to do this sort of damage, no? I'll still be strong due to my Hardeners, but will you wreck a hell of a lot faster now, which is good. King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire \\ Bad Mathematician You're a total git, Jason. - kingbabar
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 3721	Posted - 2014.01.20 20:39:00 - [40] - Quote Jason Pearson wrote: Doesn't really. Walk me through how we're going to have these very good suits with high damage and such, You're going to need fully spec'd suits to do this sort of damage, no? The Wyrikomi Breach Forge gun is the hardest hitting infantry AV weapon in the game. Now slap 4 Complex Damage Mods onto that. As For The Minmatar Commando, it has a bonus to explosive weapons, which packs an extreme punch when you add damage mods and an alleged hit to the weak-spot. Jason Pearson wrote: I'll still be strong due to my Hardeners, but will you wreck a hell of a lot faster now, which is good. Exactly. With hardeners up, AV will be able to push you back; giving friendly infantry units some breathing room to focus and re-assess the situation. With hardeners down, AV will LOLWTFBBQPWN you. Hopefully this is working as intended. What Would Larry Do? He'd probably drink some Quafe... Goes To Refrigerator

Charlotte O'Dell Fatal Absolution Covert Intervention 1698	Posted - 2014.01.20 20:49:00 - [41] - Quote There Atiim. You have your EZ mode OHK swarms again. Now stop complaining. Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
Jason Pearson 4052	Posted - 2014.01.20 20:49:00 - [42] - Quote Atiim wrote: Jason Pearson wrote: Doesn't really. Walk me through how we're going to have these very good suits with high damage and such, You're going to need fully spec'd suits to do this sort of damage, no? The Wyrikomi Breach Forge gun is the hardest hitting infantry AV weapon in the game. Now slap 4 Complex Damage Mods onto that. As For The Minmatar Commando, it has a bonus to explosive weapons, which packs an extreme punch when you add damage mods and an alleged hit to the weak-spot. Jason Pearson wrote: I'll still be strong due to my Hardeners, but will you wreck a hell of a lot faster now, which is good. Exactly. With hardeners up, AV will be able to push you back; giving friendly infantry units some breathing room to focus and re-assess the situation. With hardeners down, AV will LOLWTFBBQPWN you. Hopefully this is working as intended. Slapping four damage mods on will make you very weak though, right? It'll be fine, and if it gets real bad, it can be nerfed a little. I do have a feeling all damage mods are game breaking but meh. King of the Forums // Vehicle Specialist for Hire \\ Bad Mathematician You're a total git, Jason. - kingbabar
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1509	Posted - 2014.01.20 21:19:00 - [43] - Quote gbghg wrote: actually i think both of you are calculating your maths wrong because i ended up with a 50.24% increase against Armour. you guys are remembering that you have to subtract the previous total percentage from 100% then take the percentage off that, so if you add a 15% modifier onto a 10% modifier you get a total of 23.5% because you subtract 10% off 100% then add 15% of 90%. this would mean a proto swarm is doing 1983 damage to armour per volley. Not correct. That is what you'll be doing with hardeners for vehicles, hacking mods and other stuff where you decrease something (yes, when using hardeners you reduce the amount of damage you take from 100%, not increase the amount of resist you have). For damage mods and other stuff that increases something you just multiply everything together (with stacking penalties on mods), so my math still stands. That means the math in the OP is still wrong and the correct math is: Bendtner92 wrote: Math is still wrong though. Base damage * 1.1 (suit bonus) * 1.15 (proficiency) * approx 1.196 (two damage mods) * 1.2 (damage to armor) = around 81.5% more damage to armor. Edit: Other fun facts include: Proto Swarms are 1320 damage, so that would be around 2400 damage to armor. That would be around 1440 damage to armor if you're hitting while an armor hardener is active. That would be around 1600 damage to shields. That would be around 640 damage to shields if you're hitting while a shield hardener is active. Winner of the EU Squad Cup & the closed beta Tester's Tournament. Go Go Power Rangers!
Toby Flenderson research lab 193	Posted - 2014.01.20 21:37:00 - [44] - Quote The OP stacked the damage increases additively. Wouldn't they stack multiplicatively since the suit/proficiency/damage mods are all separate skills? What I mean is that it would be Damage * 1.1 for the suit. Then (Damage * 1.1) * 1.15 for the proficiency. Then ((Damage * 1.1) * 1.15) * 1.187) for two damage mods? This is equivalently Damage * 1.50. If SLs still have 222 per missile with 3 missiles you get Damage = 222 * 6 = 1332. Thus a SL yielding Minmatar Commando with 2 damage mods would deal 2000 damage. To armor that would be 2000 * 1.2 = 2,400 damage per volley. Let me know if I made a mistake, but this is how I thought it worked as far as different skills are concerned.
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1512	Posted - 2014.01.20 21:39:00 - [45] - Quote Toby Flenderson wrote: The OP stacked the damage increases additively. Wouldn't they stack multiplicatively since the suit/proficiency/damage mods are all separate skills? You are completely correct and your math is 100% correct as I have also showed earlier in this thread. Edit: Except that I think proto swarms do 1320 damage, but that's just a minor thing. Winner of the EU Squad Cup & the closed beta Tester's Tournament. Go Go Power Rangers!
Aizen Intiki Hell's Gate Inc League of Infamy 716	Posted - 2014.01.20 22:02:00 - [46] - Quote Atiim wrote: Aizen Intiki wrote: NO, the back is not the weak spot. There's a specific spot on the HAV's that's on the back that is the weak spot. They never hit it. Are you referring to that small crack in between the engine? If they never hit it, then I guess I will have to edit my math again. But later, because I couldn't be bothered right now. There is no crack. On Gallente hulls, it's the exhaust holes, and on the Caldari hulls, it's on the reactors. swarms never hit either. "Hello, world!" lol, sounds like something a whore lover would say Alt of the great Godin I like chocolate ^___^
darkiller240 WarRavens Auxiliaries League of Infamy 292	Posted - 2014.01.20 22:03:00 - [47] - Quote Great Dropships will be useless again "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 2220	Posted - 2014.01.21 00:07:00 - [48] - Quote gbghg wrote: actually i think both of you are calculating your maths wrong because i ended up with a 50.24% increase against Armour. you guys are remembering that you have to subtract the previous total percentage from 100% then take the percentage off that, so if you add a 15% modifier onto a 10% modifier you get a total of 23.5% because you subtract 10% off 100% then add 15% of 90%. this would mean a proto swarm is doing 1983 damage to armour per volley. Subtracting from 100% is only required for negative modifiers. For example, you subtract the resistance into 100% at each step to flip it and get the remaining percentage of damage left so you can multiply it correctly. This prevents resistance from reaching 100%. The equivalent for positive attributes like damage is to simply multiply them as is. Nothing else is needed. It's pretty simple. Every modifier, even if they all come from the same type of module, are multiplied together. Nothing is added. The only complicated part is adding the penalties. Bendtner92 wrote: Toby Flenderson wrote: The OP stacked the damage increases additively. Wouldn't they stack multiplicatively since the suit/proficiency/damage mods are all separate skills? You are completely correct and your math is 100% correct as I have also showed earlier in this thread. Edit: Except that I think proto swarms do 1320 damage, but that's just a minor thing. Check the damage module bonus for his math and yours. Yours is correct as you multiplied it and can be obtained directly from the wiki's module stacking calculator. His added the two together. So, technically, his is wrong. Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn. Panda.
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 2220	Posted - 2014.01.21 00:16:00 - [49] - Quote Just for the record, as far as I can see, Bendtner92's math is correct. They deal around 2400 damage to armor and 1600 to shields. Keep in mind that you can already do over 2000 damage a swarm. Calculating the damage and being in awe is useless. At the end of the day, you deal 10% more than you do now. The damage of the Minmatar Commando maxed with 2 Complex Light Damage Modifiers is only around 1% higher than the damage of any suit with 4. Take a light suit, max everything, use 4 modifiers and there you go, 1.8 Swarms. Of course, Commandos have 2 light slots and the need for only 2 Modifiers will make this easier to run and still have room for tanking in the lows but it shouldn't be Armageddon. They are sturdier and they can either defend themselves better or dual wield to minimize downtime and that's about it. Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn. Panda.
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 3730	Posted - 2014.01.21 00:21:00 - [50] - Quote ... What Would Larry Do? He'd probably drink some Quafe... Goes To Refrigerator

Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 3270	Posted - 2014.01.21 00:35:00 - [51] - Quote Someone was saying (with respect to damage bonuses earlier) that it isn't clear that the Swarm Launcher would receive a bonus from an explosive modifier, because it didn't seem to have that tag in the SDE: tag.1tag_weapon tag.2tag_light tag.3tag_handheld_weapon tag.0tag_weapon_swarmlauncher tag.4tag_weaponclass_hybrid I haven't actually poked around the SDE though. I can't think of anything else in the game currently that gives a bonus to explosive weapons only, so I don't know how you'd parse that before the suit is released. It's also possible those tags haven't been added yet. Join my cult.
KING CHECKMATE Ametat Security Amarr Empire 3835	Posted - 2014.01.21 00:38:00 - [52] - Quote DOnt Forget The Gallente Commando! Remember Commandos get up to 25% Rapid Reload Speed! FOR ALL LIGHT WEAPONS! Random scrub: '' trololol look at that ***** killing all my team with a Duvolle! LAV Murder taxi! attaaaack!!!1!!1!* Random Scrub [ Allotek Plasma Cannon ] Gallente Commando 1.969 s Reload speed on PC might be something to look at, specially because it has high effectiveness over infantry too. Not saying is the beta,just something else to look at... ;) GIVE ME A RESPEC CCP.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 4383	Posted - 2014.01.21 00:38:00 - [53] - Quote ah thank you both of you for the corrections, that makes sense. Lv 4 forum warrior Bringer of Bacon Knight of AMV's
Yoma Carrim Situation Normal all fraked up 278	Posted - 2014.01.21 00:42:00 - [54] - Quote Is it just me or did this entire thread degrade into an argument over math? if not carry on o7 When you turn a corner and find the entire enemy team.Oh Heck Logi, Tanker, Heavy
Adelia Lafayette Science For Death 561	Posted - 2014.01.21 00:43:00 - [55] - Quote this is why I'm annoyed damage types were not included from the beginning. missiles should be coming in 4 flavors. Currently its a caldari weapon firing minmatar ammo when it should be a weapon all 4 races use with their specific ammo. Assault dropship gets blown up.... (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ "Kitten this I'm out"... ..."I'm back"
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 3731	Posted - 2014.01.21 00:59:00 - [56] - Quote @Zeylon Rho I parsed the Swarm Launcher as an explosive weapon because there is a page on DUST 514's website that explains shield/armor damage modifications due to weapon types; In this page, the Swarm Launcher is listed as an explosive weapon, which would also explain it's -/+20% damage bonus to shields and armor respectively. I can't find the link though. What Would Larry Do? He'd probably drink some Quafe... Goes To Refrigerator
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 3731	Posted - 2014.01.21 01:01:00 - [57] - Quote Adelia Lafayette wrote: this is why I'm annoyed damage types were not included from the beginning. missiles should be coming in 4 flavors. Currently its a caldari weapon firing minmatar ammo when it should be a weapon all 4 races use with their specific ammo. Damage types are included. Hybrid, Laser, Explosive, and Projectile. A Caldari weapon firing explosives doesn't necessarily mean that it's firing rounds produced by Minmatar corporations. What Would Larry Do? He'd probably drink some Quafe... Goes To Refrigerator
Atiim Living Like Larry Schwag 3731	Posted - 2014.01.21 01:02:00 - [58] - Quote Yoma Carrim wrote: Is it just me or did this entire thread degrade into an argument over math? if not carry on o7 It's a lot better than what I predicted it would degrade into... Anyways, I'm just glad to see signs of intelligence on the forums. What Would Larry Do? He'd probably drink some Quafe... Goes To Refrigerator
Borne Velvalor Endless Hatred 2221	Posted - 2014.01.21 01:07:00 - [59] - Quote Yoma Carrim wrote: Is it just me or did this entire thread degrade into an argument over math? if not carry on o7 Kind of. The simplest view, IMO, is that we do 10% more damage, which you can already stack more modifiers to get in 1.7 anyway. I've ran dual STD swarms on a Commando suit on my alt and they are hilarious. Great fun using them to destroy Somas. Many suits I've worn, many burdens I've borne, for the oaths I've sworn. Panda.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 4388	Posted - 2014.01.21 02:01:00 - [60] - Quote Atiim wrote: Yoma Carrim wrote: Is it just me or did this entire thread degrade into an argument over math? if not carry on o7 It's a lot better than what I predicted it would degrade into... Anyways, I'm just glad to see signs of intelligence on the forums. meh, degrading into a maths argument is more novel than degrading into the usual balance argument and anyone browsing the thread now has a better understanding of how the modules work, me included. Lv 4 forum warrior Bringer of Bacon Knight of AMV's



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