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A visual guide to what Teiricide will do for suits.

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Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12048	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:02:00 - [1] - Quote Since people can't read. Before Teiricide With Captions After Teiricide Edit : Yes I noticed the link slot on the pre teiricide being a typo sorry. As you can see this gets rid of climbing up the tree overall but now breaks out into branching the tree out to more interesting branches. Militia -> Basic Tech 1 -> Advanced Tech 2 as you can notice is losing slots as it goes up but it trades it for additional specialized bonuses. Suits start off with meager fittings when you train their suit command to 1, but as you train up command skills for the specific suits that need it to operate you will be then getting more fitting, and more bonuses thus allows you to develop and specialize the suit further. Also under Teiricide 'type 2 and type 3s' return and are a part of the logical progression where type 2 and 3s are not better just different dice rolled for the same class. Tech 1s get tech 2 previews of the suits as you can notice one class is suited to being a pilot, one a scout, and one a spec ops by slot layouts alone. Milita (not shown) post teiricide has 'fixed bonuses' and does not gain anything per level and fitting overall is pretty low despite having the highest number of slots verses its tech 1 cousin. While powerful for a rookie at the start once the rookie starts investing into the skill of the amarr light around lvl 2 and 3 the tech 1 suits start to outperform the militia suit in terms of fitting then bonuses. Despite this none of the suits get obsoleted by skill training as the captioned pre teiricide cuts out clearly. A maxed out amarr light operator can still effectively use the tech 1 suits to a great advantage and would currently achieve the 'going cheaper' motif the current specialist advanced suits enjoy. While tech 2 is for going 'pro'. The only reason not to use a certain suit on any of these post teiricide trees is the simple fact its not your play style, some people like their sidearms some don't care to lose it for a second equipment slot. And yes the three tech 1 suits will have different models under the new teiricide when art allows for it. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Lynn Beck Granite Mercenary Division Top Men. 534	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:06:00 - [2] - Quote FIRST! And i don't know if troll or no troll... Under 28db Officially nerfproof (predicting CR nerf February '14) I have a God, His name is Dakka.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens League of Infamy 304	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:08:00 - [3] - Quote What is the likelihood of this happening? Thanks for all the information you are constantly giving us players. Be well. -Joseph
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12050	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:09:00 - [4] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: What is the likelihood of this happening? Thanks for all the information you are constantly giving us players. Be well. -Joseph Dunno, but I got a fugly stick ready for this to get something like it or similar verses what I been hearing is the future plans. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Zekain K Expert Intervention Caldari State 1037	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:10:00 - [5] - Quote Meh seems like too much work, and Ccp doesn't like work. *CALDARI not so MASTER RACE* Forum Warrior Level: 10
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12050	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:11:00 - [6] - Quote Zekain K wrote: Meh seems like too much work, and Ccp doesn't like work. This will actually save them quite a bit of work instead. On an equivalent role to suit scale this takes 7 suits ccp currently has between 2 roles and reduces to 3 with no scaling needs. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Gemini Reynolds Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 123	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:15:00 - [7] - Quote I like the idea IWS. Here's wishing I had the patience to actually run through all the suits and numbers in my head lol but good show.
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1970	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:17:00 - [8] - Quote Lets say this magically solves all of the 'balance' problems as you see them, after tiericide how does the economics of suits work? Will light suit v.1 be as cheap/expensive as light suit v.3? If I'm accumulating larger piles of isk, what am I generally spending it on? If the grade of equipment doesn't exponentially increase my isk cost to field it, where does my isk go? Does it just pile up? When I can choose a 1k isk suit, a 10k isk suit, and a 100k isk suit, then a 200k isk payout means something substantial. When/if all suits are similarly only specifically useful and similarly priced: 1) How does that effect the entry cost of suits-the price new players are paying to be competitive in them? 2) Are you going to assume that most of the cost of fits will lie in module fitting now? 3) Proponents of tiericide propose that suit bonuses rather than module fits will determine the uniqueness of different suit types/roles...what does this mean for the uniqueness of how each one is fit? What I haven't heard from the tiericide folks is the approach tiericide will take toward the faucet:sink relationship that current STD>ADV>PRO gear has set up. The current tiers forces a significant relationship between cost and profit per match based on how strong of a suit you field. The reason there is so much isk in the game at the moment has much less to do with tier/dropsuit balance and much more to do with the design of PC and the salvage rebates with Chromosome/Uprising. It is statistically impossible for everyone to eventually be running proto AND profit unless they all are just walking around in the game and not shooting each other. Tl;DR: please also explain the micro/macro economic/cost/profit/incentive side of tiericide. Otherwise, I think this idea leads to an unsustainable and ultimately boring system.
Cyrius Li-Moody The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR. 2840	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:17:00 - [9] - Quote I support. std/adv/pro needs to go. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Tallen Ellecon KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1200	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:21:00 - [10] - Quote I like it and I don't know why anyone wouldn't, but I wonder if this cuts into CCPs bottom line. Tarn chose peace. Tallen chose war. Where is my Gallente sidearm? SoonGäó514

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12053	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:21:00 - [11] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: Lets say this magically solves all of the 'balance' problems as you see them, after tiericide how does the economics of suits work? Will light suit v.1 be as cheap/expensive as light suit v.3? If I'm accumulating larger piles of isk, what am I generally spending it on? If the grade of equipment doesn't exponentially increase my isk cost to field it, where does my isk go? Does it just pile up? When I can choose a 1k isk suit, a 10k isk suit, and a 100k isk suit, then a 200k isk payout means something substantial. When/if all suits are similarly only specifically useful and similarly priced: 1) How does that effect the entry cost of suits-the price new players are paying to be competitive in them? 2) Are you going to assume that most of the cost of fits will lie in module fitting now? 3) Proponents of tiericide propose that suit bonuses rather than module fits will determine the uniqueness of different suit types/roles...what does this mean for the uniqueness of how each one is fit? What I haven't heard from the tiericide folks is the approach tiericide will take toward the faucet:sink relationship that current STD>ADV>PRO gear has set up. The current tiers forces a significant relationship between cost and profit per match based on how strong of a suit you field. The reason there is so much isk in the game at the moment has much less to do with tier/dropsuit balance and much more to do with the design of PC and the salvage rebates with Chromosome/Uprising. It is statistically impossible for everyone to eventually be running proto AND profit unless they all are just walking around in the game and not shooting each other. Tl;DR: please also explain the micro/macro economic/cost/profit/incentive side of tiericide. Otherwise, I think this idea leads to an unsustainable and ultimately boring system. Costs move over the modules instead. Tech 1 suit with basic modules and guns will be in similar price to current base suits and base modules in pricing. A tech 2 suit with mostly proto modules and guns will be slightly more expensive than current proto layouts. A tech 1 suit with advanced/proto mix or tech 2 suit with basic advanced should be around the same cost as todays proto to advanced fit prices being costs effective for performance. Thus its going to be up to the player to determine (and it is currently like this) how expensive his fit is going to be, Thales or not to Thales? Thales are going to be an estimate 20 million isk already which are typically being fitted on a suit that barely costs 1/100th of that price. When manufacturing comes in, tech 1 suits are easily manufactured as are the modules, meta modules and tech 2s will be slightly more difficult requiring a technology base on either behalf of the eve overlords ( who may be the ones ultimately building all of this stuff ) or ourselves to make them possible and those can become a point in conflict. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
TechMechMeds Swamp Marines 2087	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:23:00 - [12] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Since people can't read. Before Teiricide With Captions After Teiricide (and yes I realized I need to find an image hosting service without annoying advertisements) Edit : Yes I noticed the link slot on the pre teiricide being a typo sorry; and no the slots are theorycrafting from flipping the minmatar suit over...) As you can see this gets rid of climbing up the tree overall but now breaks out into branching the tree out to more interesting branches. Militia -> Basic Tech 1 -> Advanced Tech 2 as you can notice is losing slots as it goes up but it trades it for additional specialized bonuses. Suits start off with meager fittings when you train their suit command to 1, but as you train up command skills for the specific suits that need it to operate you will be then getting more fitting, and more bonuses thus allows you to develop and specialize the suit further. Also under Teiricide 'type 2 and type 3s' return and are a part of the logical progression where type 2 and 3s are not better just different dice rolled for the same class. Tech 1s get tech 2 previews of the suits as you can notice one class is suited to being a pilot, one a scout, and one a spec ops by slot layouts alone. Milita (not shown) post teiricide has 'fixed bonuses' and does not gain anything per level and fitting overall is pretty low despite having the highest number of slots verses its tech 1 cousin. While powerful for a rookie at the start once the rookie starts investing into the skill of the amarr light around lvl 2 and 3 the tech 1 suits start to outperform the militia suit in terms of fitting then bonuses. Despite this none of the suits get obsoleted by skill training as the captioned pre teiricide cuts out clearly. A maxed out amarr light operator can still effectively use the tech 1 suits to a great advantage and would currently achieve the 'going cheaper' motif the current specialist advanced suits enjoy. While tech 2 is for going 'pro'. The only reason not to use a certain suit on any of these post teiricide trees is the simple fact its not your play style, some people like their sidearms some don't care to lose it for a second equipment slot. And yes the three tech 1 suits will have different models under the new teiricide when art allows for it. I'm still not getting it lol. Wow it actually looks good, iv not seen anything posted on the subject that states anything other than that we'd all be more equal and we'd be grinding to remove inherent penalties, nothing mentioned as far as iv seen about opneninbg up opportunities for more suit variants. This is the first post iv seen that shows any enjoyable benefit for tiericide and I'm now for it. Thank you. Level 2 forum warrior. Minmatar and Gallente fw. I sold my wife and kids to the Amarr for isk, its a valid tactic.
Guildo Crow ZionTCD Public Disorder. 188	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:25:00 - [13] - Quote I support this thread, and all mentions of Tiercide. Bringing back the type 2 suits is a fantastic idea, I almost forgot about those things. (initially their intent was for gameplay symmetry) Has there been any response, official or not, from CCP regarding Tiercide?
Lynn Beck Granite Mercenary Division Top Men. 534	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:27:00 - [14] - Quote Would like to see some numbers on how much you expect things to cost, is this going to mimic the EVE setup where a T1 ship costs 300k, but the T2 equivelent is like (not sure) 2 mill? Or would specializing be same cost or negligibly higher, but module costs jumping like 1k-10k-40k a module? Under 28db Officially nerfproof (predicting CR nerf February '14) I have a God, His name is Dakka.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12053	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:28:00 - [15] - Quote Guildo Crow wrote: I support this thread, and all mentions of Tiercide. Bringing back the type 2 suits is a fantastic idea, I almost forgot about those things. (initially their intent was for gameplay symmetry) Has there been any response, official or not, from CCP regarding Tiercide? I had to have to start a fire somewhere. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1971	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:28:00 - [16] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: Lets say this magically solves all of the 'balance' problems as you see them, after tiericide how does the economics of suits work? Will light suit v.1 be as cheap/expensive as light suit v.3? If I'm accumulating larger piles of isk, what am I generally spending it on? If the grade of equipment doesn't exponentially increase my isk cost to field it, where does my isk go? Does it just pile up? When I can choose a 1k isk suit, a 10k isk suit, and a 100k isk suit, then a 200k isk payout means something substantial. When/if all suits are similarly only specifically useful and similarly priced: 1) How does that effect the entry cost of suits-the price new players are paying to be competitive in them? 2) Are you going to assume that most of the cost of fits will lie in module fitting now? 3) Proponents of tiericide propose that suit bonuses rather than module fits will determine the uniqueness of different suit types/roles...what does this mean for the uniqueness of how each one is fit? What I haven't heard from the tiericide folks is the approach tiericide will take toward the faucet:sink relationship that current STD>ADV>PRO gear has set up. The current tiers forces a significant relationship between cost and profit per match based on how strong of a suit you field. The reason there is so much isk in the game at the moment has much less to do with tier/dropsuit balance and much more to do with the design of PC and the salvage rebates with Chromosome/Uprising. It is statistically impossible for everyone to eventually be running proto AND profit unless they all are just walking around in the game and not shooting each other. Tl;DR: please also explain the micro/macro economic/cost/profit/incentive side of tiericide. Otherwise, I think this idea leads to an unsustainable and ultimately boring system. Costs move over the modules instead. Tech 1 suit with basic modules and guns will be in similar price to current base suits and base modules in pricing. A tech 2 suit with mostly proto modules and guns will be slightly more expensive than current proto layouts. A tech 1 suit with advanced/proto mix or tech 2 suit with basic advanced should be around the same cost as todays proto to advanced fit prices being costs effective for performance. Thus its going to be up to the player to determine (and it is currently like this) how expensive his fit is going to be, Thales or not to Thales? Thales are going to be an estimate 20 million isk already which are typically being fitted on a suit that barely costs 1/100th of that price. When manufacturing comes in, tech 1 suits are easily manufactured as are the modules, meta modules and tech 2s will be slightly more difficult requiring a technology base on either behalf of the eve overlords ( who may be the ones ultimately building all of this stuff ) or ourselves to make them possible and those can become a point in conflict. So would you say then that, "Under tiericide, the bonuses and base stats on your suit will have the greater impact on the role of the suit than the way they are fit?"
R F Gyro Clones 4u 1043	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:28:00 - [17] - Quote While I'd love to see this implemented, it looks like it would be a massive amount of work, and would need a huge amount of balancing itself. I'm not sure I'd put this at the top of the pile, priority-wise. RF Gyro: 12.5% damage bonus; 10.5% rate of fire bonus
Tallen Ellecon KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1201	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:29:00 - [18] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: Lets say this magically solves all of the 'balance' problems as you see them, after tiericide how does the economics of suits work? Will light suit v.1 be as cheap/expensive as light suit v.3? If I'm accumulating larger piles of isk, what am I generally spending it on? If the grade of equipment doesn't exponentially increase my isk cost to field it, where does my isk go? Does it just pile up? When I can choose a 1k isk suit, a 10k isk suit, and a 100k isk suit, then a 200k isk payout means something substantial. When/if all suits are similarly only specifically useful and similarly priced: 1) How does that effect the entry cost of suits-the price new players are paying to be competitive in them? 2) Are you going to assume that most of the cost of fits will lie in module fitting now? 3) Proponents of tiericide propose that suit bonuses rather than module fits will determine the uniqueness of different suit types/roles...what does this mean for the uniqueness of how each one is fit? What I haven't heard from the tiericide folks is the approach tiericide will take toward the faucet:sink relationship that current STD>ADV>PRO gear has set up. The current tiers forces a significant relationship between cost and profit per match based on how strong of a suit you field. The reason there is so much isk in the game at the moment has much less to do with tier/dropsuit balance and much more to do with the design of PC and the salvage rebates with Chromosome/Uprising. It is statistically impossible for everyone to eventually be running proto AND profit unless they all are just walking around in the game and not shooting each other. Tl;DR: STD>ADV>PRO largely exists as an economic disincentive against fielding higher tier gear because pub match profit is so low. Please explain the micro/macro economic/cost/profit/incentive side of tiericide. Otherwise, I think this idea leads to an unsustainable and ultimately boring system. I think a good answer to this question would be to to make higher tiered modules a bigger cost sink. The frame should be just that, a frame. Right now higher tiers only benifit from the higher number of slots and PG/CPU, if the new suits slots were filled with more expensive modules than there would still be a way to make the same suit cost substantially more. Tarn chose peace. Tallen chose war. Where is my Gallente sidearm? SoonGäó514
stlcarlos989 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 950	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:29:00 - [19] - Quote So is this is just what you want to see? Or is CCP actually considering this? I think would be good for the game but I doubt CCP had any intention on doing this. Also try imgur. STB Director, #1 in Warpoints E3 Closed Beta Build, Water Pipe Aficionado
Fire of Prometheus DUST University Ivy League 2889	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:30:00 - [20] - Quote I'm ok with it as long as the t2 suits LOOK the same as the current proto suits Commando 6 // A.R.C Commander // D-Uni instructor

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1482	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:30:00 - [21] - Quote Whats your opinion on modules? Keep them as is or change how they skill up? 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12058	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:30:00 - [22] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: Would like to see some numbers on how much you expect things to cost, is this going to mimic the EVE setup where a T1 ship costs 300k, but the T2 equivelent is like (not sure) 2 mill? Or would specializing be same cost or negligibly higher, but module costs jumping like 1k-10k-40k a module? I don't want to see the suits go sky high though and overall it would be just estimates. Until I have a fuller picture on my end (this is taken from another project of mine) I cannot give anything accurate I say 150-250k tops for a 'proto' suit with no offshot weapons 70-150k for your cost effective builds 20-50k for a tech 1 bare bones suit. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12058	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:31:00 - [23] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Whats your opinion on modules? Keep them as is or change how they skill up? Modules will mostly still stay the same (withstanding balance needs between level) cept for in prices to eat up what suit prices are lost out with this change. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1482	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:36:00 - [24] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Whats your opinion on modules? Keep them as is or change how they skill up? Modules will mostly still stay the same (withstanding balance needs between level) cept for in prices to eat up what suit prices are lost out with this change. How do you feel about modules having inherent disadvantages that decrease as tier increases paired with a smaller increase in benefit to what we have now? I'm mostly concerned with excessive stacking of modules, particularly HP and Damage modules on the fits we see currently. It would be much akin to some of the 1.7 vehicle modules. 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12058	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:38:00 - [25] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: Lets say this magically solves all of the 'balance' problems as you see them, after tiericide how does the economics of suits work? Will light suit v.1 be as cheap/expensive as light suit v.3? If I'm accumulating larger piles of isk, what am I generally spending it on? If the grade of equipment doesn't exponentially increase my isk cost to field it, where does my isk go? Does it just pile up? When I can choose a 1k isk suit, a 10k isk suit, and a 100k isk suit, then a 200k isk payout means something substantial. When/if all suits are similarly only specifically useful and similarly priced: 1) How does that effect the entry cost of suits-the price new players are paying to be competitive in them? 2) Are you going to assume that most of the cost of fits will lie in module fitting now? 3) Proponents of tiericide propose that suit bonuses rather than module fits will determine the uniqueness of different suit types/roles...what does this mean for the uniqueness of how each one is fit? What I haven't heard from the tiericide folks is the approach tiericide will take toward the faucet:sink relationship that current STD>ADV>PRO gear has set up. The current tiers forces a significant relationship between cost and profit per match based on how strong of a suit you field. The reason there is so much isk in the game at the moment has much less to do with tier/dropsuit balance and much more to do with the design of PC and the salvage rebates with Chromosome/Uprising. It is statistically impossible for everyone to eventually be running proto AND profit unless they all are just walking around in the game and not shooting each other. Tl;DR: please also explain the micro/macro economic/cost/profit/incentive side of tiericide. Otherwise, I think this idea leads to an unsustainable and ultimately boring system. Costs move over the modules instead. Tech 1 suit with basic modules and guns will be in similar price to current base suits and base modules in pricing. A tech 2 suit with mostly proto modules and guns will be slightly more expensive than current proto layouts. A tech 1 suit with advanced/proto mix or tech 2 suit with basic advanced should be around the same cost as todays proto to advanced fit prices being costs effective for performance. Thus its going to be up to the player to determine (and it is currently like this) how expensive his fit is going to be, Thales or not to Thales? Thales are going to be an estimate 20 million isk already which are typically being fitted on a suit that barely costs 1/100th of that price. When manufacturing comes in, tech 1 suits are easily manufactured as are the modules, meta modules and tech 2s will be slightly more difficult requiring a technology base on either behalf of the eve overlords ( who may be the ones ultimately building all of this stuff ) or ourselves to make them possible and those can become a point in conflict. So would you say then that, "Under tiericide, the bonuses and base stats on your suit will have the greater impact on the role of the suit than the way they are fit?" Not exactly Tech 1 are generalists for example the amarr light may get a blanket bonuses (armor efficancy % & Energy weapon efficancy%) Where tech 2 is more specific (Laser Optimal %, Armor repair rates % Cloak module effectiveness, Sensor Booster Bonus %) Also most tech 2s are trading in specific 'noise' out to focus on its true passion. Tech 1 bonuses are slightly weaker than tech 2 specifics but because tech 1 skills cover a broad number of modules it gains quite a bit of flexibility of how it can go about doing its business while still maintaining its racial identity, there will be suit stats/fitting and slot layouts that synergizes greatly with the modules installed still with its race. For example a reduced heat traite may be mostly amarrian but there are other weapons that still build up heat outside of the amarrian arsenal. Tech 2 suits are somewhat built up around use of certain modules to overperform in that area that a tech 1 cannot exactly match, but tech 2 trades up flexibility for it combined with their increased costs this is a double sacrifice to break the mold as you're now discounting a major factor as to why its missing a slot or two. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Quil Evrything Triple Terrors 731	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:39:00 - [26] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Since people can't read. people apparently cant spell, either Please edit your post and fix; it's driving me nuts "Tiericide" Also,when posting images that include text, please use png, not jpg. Lossy compression makes for fuzzy text :(
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12060	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:42:00 - [27] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Whats your opinion on modules? Keep them as is or change how they skill up? Modules will mostly still stay the same (withstanding balance needs between level) cept for in prices to eat up what suit prices are lost out with this change. How do you feel about modules having inherent disadvantages that decrease as tier increases paired with a smaller increase in benefit to what we have now? I'm mostly concerned with excessive stacking of modules, particularly HP and Damage modules on the fits we see currently. It would be much akin to some of the 1.7 vehicle modules. Most of the time this is done through fitting and gains, the gains from meta 4 to 5 is not as strong as 1 to 2 as well. Fitting will be more important under this model of tetricide I purposed (there are many other ways to do this, mine's slightly more complicated) so overall to go full proto requires a bit of dedication to make it all work out. A player in advanced gear would not feel entirely outclassed as much by a full proto but the full proto is paying a lot in time, isk, and risks for that slight edge he needs for whatever grudge match he's in and its not something he can casually use anymore. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1972	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:42:00 - [28] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Whats your opinion on modules? Keep them as is or change how they skill up? Modules will mostly still stay the same (withstanding balance needs between level) cept for in prices to eat up what suit prices are lost out with this change. See my point above. If you are then asking suit stats and bonuses to define roles, but increasing module costs, how much have you considered the marginal benefit of fitting STD>ADV>PRO modules? Additionally, we start to get into a UI/Feedback issue then where players can currently be pretty aware of the marginal differences between suit performance just by looking at different suits (like the sharpshooter skill issue from updates prior). To the extent that modules did or did not determine performance differences you would be messing with this ability to prejudge your effectiveness vs. a target. Also, dropsuit visuals and naming conventions would present its own learning curve to the new player that may not first be evident. Knowing all of the various races' individual t1 and t2 light/medium/heavy flavors would be tremendously overwhelming compared to the more conventionaly hierarchical approach that we currently have.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12060	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:54:00 - [29] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Whats your opinion on modules? Keep them as is or change how they skill up? Modules will mostly still stay the same (withstanding balance needs between level) cept for in prices to eat up what suit prices are lost out with this change. See my point above. If you are then asking suit stats and bonuses to define roles, but increasing module costs, how much have you considered the marginal benefit of fitting STD>ADV>PRO modules? Additionally, we start to get into a UI/Feedback issue then where players can currently be pretty aware of the marginal differences between suit performance just by looking at different suits (like the sharpshooter skill issue from updates prior). To the extent that modules did or did not determine performance differences you would be messing with this ability to prejudge your effectiveness vs. a target. Also, dropsuit visuals and naming conventions would present its own learning curve to the new player that may not first be evident. Knowing all of the various races' individual t1 and t2 light/medium/heavy flavors would be tremendously overwhelming compared to the more conventionaly hierarchical approach that we currently have. Standards would likely decrease (as the base suit is probably going to be more expensive than current base suits) Advances and protos might spike up. Intel window should start shifting to displaying Amarr Recon. Amarr Scout. as more important information, as long as each class is well themed and races are well understood, one would not have to know what exactly the bonuses are for the amarr recon to know what type of threats he can pose. Its amarrian, he's going to hit hard and take a beating, he's a recon, he's going to be the hardest thing to sneak up let alone hide from. If done right that is. Also shooter players have been rather capable of IDing and counter threatening against a very rich variety target environment before as not only weapons have been providing 'classes' of enemies but compounding with classes with different guns has been multiplying that in a multiplayer field. Just some games don't emphasize either. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Gemini Reynolds Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 123	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:57:00 - [30] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Whats your opinion on modules? Keep them as is or change how they skill up? Modules will mostly still stay the same (withstanding balance needs between level) cept for in prices to eat up what suit prices are lost out with this change. See my point above. If you are then asking suit stats and bonuses to define roles, but increasing module costs, how much have you considered the marginal benefit of fitting STD>ADV>PRO modules? Additionally, we start to get into a UI/Feedback issue then where players can currently be pretty aware of the marginal differences between suit performance just by looking at different suits (like the sharpshooter skill issue from updates prior). To the extent that modules did or did not determine performance differences you would be messing with this ability to prejudge your effectiveness vs. a target. Also, dropsuit visuals and naming conventions would present its own learning curve to the new player that may not first be evident. Knowing all of the various races' individual t1 and t2 light/medium/heavy flavors would be tremendously overwhelming compared to the more conventionaly hierarchical approach that we currently have. Personal anecdote: I rather enjoy the challenge of having to learn to tie what name to what inherent abilities. It took some time to do with Eve's ships, but that only caused me to become more invested in the game as a whole. Variations can be defined in as simple a means as a palette swap (see Logi and/or proto) to make it a little simpler (basics, not specifics). I cannot say this would be true of all players. Just, as noted, a personal anecdote.

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1496	Posted - 2014.01.14 20:58:00 - [31] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Whats your opinion on modules? Keep them as is or change how they skill up? Modules will mostly still stay the same (withstanding balance needs between level) cept for in prices to eat up what suit prices are lost out with this change. How do you feel about modules having inherent disadvantages that decrease as tier increases paired with a smaller increase in benefit to what we have now? I'm mostly concerned with excessive stacking of modules, particularly HP and Damage modules on the fits we see currently. It would be much akin to some of the 1.7 vehicle modules. Most of the time this is done through fitting and gains, the gains from meta 4 to 5 is not as strong as 1 to 2 as well. Fitting will be more important under this model of tetricide I purposed (there are many other ways to do this, mine's slightly more complicated) so overall to go full proto requires a bit of dedication to make it all work out. A player in advanced gear would not feel entirely outclassed as much by a full proto but the full proto is paying a lot in time, isk, and risks for that slight edge he needs for whatever grudge match he's in and its not something he can casually use anymore. So essentially you're saying cost runs a more linear scale but benefit is logarithmic, I can support that. Its like I tell people "I play EVE, and at the point I'm at now, I'd sell my soul for 1% more of anything". Regardless, while that serves to help the difference in STD>ADV>PRO, I am still concerned about how stale fitting has gotten. Particularly that 'active' tanking in Dust is really underutilized because More HP and Damage is usually the best option. I currently have a thread up which needs to be updated. However it proses a sort of rock, paper scissors between modules where each have a benefit and downside which compliments each other so you're encouraged to mix and match to properly balance positives and negatives to fit your playstyle better. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=135792 1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
Tallen Ellecon KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1201	Posted - 2014.01.14 21:02:00 - [32] - Quote I sure hope you've brought this to CCP. I wish modules were tiered more like they are in EVE to add more variety without making T2 ridiculously better than standard. At the same time the biggest limiting factor is that the whole module and weapon tier system we have now are intertwined with the suit tiering. The extra slots are great but the PG and CPU increase is important because it's still difficult to fit complex modules on a standard suit even with maxed fitting skills. Like I said earlier I think the main problem is that this could cut into the games bottom line, because the gear itself outweighs the bonuses 95 percent of the time. As it stands weapon tiering is probably the most balanced because the passive skills and modules do far more than the actual stat increases for most weapons (excluding ranges) and the higher ISK, CPU, and PG costs balance it a bit. But I think they should scrub the tier systems all together while this game is young. Every skill should contributes to a stat. To continue monotizing all they'd need would have an open market, aur gear, and SP boosters. Boosters still remain important, but now aur versions of gear have less to do with getting ahead, but avoiding grind. Aur could just allow you to access a specialized suit and weapons with no skill, still being balanced because the skills make the suit. If you have the skill you can avoid the grind. Buy gear with Aur, sell it for ISK, avoid unnecessary grind. Now those who never stop playing can make enough in game to buy boosters with ISK, those with $ can sell aurum bought stuff for ISK to avoid grind. If a bonus SP rollover system is implemented (which we need it's one of the few reasons why I hate active boosters, I can't take a break) I'd buy a booster that turned bonus SP into passive SP. Tarn chose peace. Tallen chose war. Where is my Gallente sidearm? SoonGäó514
Gemini Reynolds Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 124	Posted - 2014.01.14 21:17:00 - [33] - Quote Good guide, now you need to expand it.
Aizen Intiki Hell's Gate Inc League of Infamy 685	Posted - 2014.01.14 21:18:00 - [34] - Quote IWS, link the Dust 2.0 project post. Then people can love you even more "Hello, world!" lol, sounds like something a whore lover would say Alt of the great Godin I like chocolate ^___^
Tallen Ellecon KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1201	Posted - 2014.01.14 21:26:00 - [35] - Quote I'm going to keep bumping this thread and pushing this idea until CCP gives us clear reasons why they aren't doing it. It solves the balance problems, adds variety, still incentives grind, and allows people to try useful things out at lower levels. Tarn chose peace. Tallen chose war. Where is my Gallente sidearm? SoonGäó514
TechMechMeds Swamp Marines 2089	Posted - 2014.01.14 21:26:00 - [36] - Quote I'm going to state now why a lot of people are against this idea and very briefly. Any proposal for tiericide mostly concentrates on down sides rather than stating anything beneficial right off the bat and easily gets construed as some kind of random idea that would make dust plain sht. Very many people don't get it, I'll be informing my corp members of this idea as they think the same as I prior to understanding or they don't even know. Mind still blown. Level 2 forum warrior. Minmatar and Gallente fw. I sold my wife and kids to the Amarr for isk, its a valid tactic.
TechMechMeds Swamp Marines 2089	Posted - 2014.01.14 21:35:00 - [37] - Quote Aizen Intiki wrote: IWS, link the Dust 2.0 project post. Then people can love you even more This plehez. Level 2 forum warrior. Minmatar and Gallente fw. I sold my wife and kids to the Amarr for isk, its a valid tactic.
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 426	Posted - 2014.01.14 21:42:00 - [38] - Quote I don't know man. Coming from anyone else, I would say great idea. But you, I just don't know. The hate I feel for you is strong like bear. IWS, tha **, think you are cool or something. Hey, question. WHY THE HAVE THEY NOT DONE THIS? And why did they not start with this! Thanks for the pictures btw. And it's not because people CAN'T read (see there you go simply assuming ** again). Always liked pictures though (like flowcharts) they show the big picture all at once, rather than psuedo code, that makes no sense whatsoever. Might as well just write the damn code out! I do wonder though, why they need to lose slots. What is an example of the kind of bonus you would gain from the suits. I imagine it would have to be rather large. And the slot count seems waay low. I loved the complexity the number of slots gave to my tanks pre 1.7. I spent many hours, simply figuring fits. Now though with tanks, much of that joy is gone. Nothing complex with tank fittings anymore, slap a hardener on there and call it good. I like the idea, but I do wonder about diversity in fits. OH, and before I forget. JOKING with the jabs, ignore them. You are cool or something, I don't hate you, and you don't always make false assumptions. (no more than the rest of us) Nuff Said
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 426	Posted - 2014.01.14 21:48:00 - [39] - Quote Tallen Ellecon wrote: I sure hope you've brought this to CCP. I wish modules were tiered more like they are in EVE to add more variety without making T2 ridiculously better than standard. At the same time the biggest limiting factor is that the whole module and weapon tier system we have now are intertwined with the suit tiering. The extra slots are great but the PG and CPU increase is important because it's still difficult to fit complex modules on a standard suit even with maxed fitting skills. Like I said earlier I think the main problem is that this could cut into the games bottom line, because the gear itself outweighs the bonuses 95 percent of the time. As it stands weapon tiering is probably the most balanced because the passive skills and modules do far more than the actual stat increases for most weapons (excluding ranges) and the higher ISK, CPU, and PG costs balance it a bit. But I think they should scrub the tier systems all together while this game is young. Every skill should contributes to a stat. To continue monotizing all they'd need would have an open market, aur gear, and SP boosters. Boosters still remain important, but now aur versions of gear have less to do with getting ahead, but avoiding grind. Aur could just allow you to access a specialized suit and weapons with no skill, still being balanced because the skills make the suit. If you have the skill you can avoid the grind. Buy gear with Aur, sell it for ISK, avoid unnecessary grind. Now those who never stop playing can make enough in game to buy boosters with ISK, those with $ can sell aurum bought stuff for ISK to avoid grind. If a bonus SP rollover system is implemented (which we need it's one of the few reasons why I hate active boosters, I can't take a break) I'd buy a booster that turned bonus SP into passive SP. Was going to disagree with the AUR part until I read, Buy gear with Aur, sell for ISK, avoid unnecessary grind. The money they could make! It's like selling buying and selling PLEX! Fits nicely with the FTP model! Nuff Said
Cosgar ParagonX 9093	Posted - 2014.01.14 21:50:00 - [40] - Quote This might actually save Dust. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"

Lynn Beck Granite Mercenary Division Top Men. 535	Posted - 2014.01.14 21:56:00 - [41] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Lynn Beck wrote: Would like to see some numbers on how much you expect things to cost, is this going to mimic the EVE setup where a T1 ship costs 300k, but the T2 equivelent is like (not sure) 2 mill? Or would specializing be same cost or negligibly higher, but module costs jumping like 1k-10k-40k a module? I don't want to see the suits go sky high though and overall it would be just estimates. Until I have a fuller picture on my end (this is taken from another project of mine) I cannot give anything accurate I say 150-250k tops for a 'proto' suit with no offshot weapons 70-150k for your cost effective builds 20-50k for a tech 1 bare bones suit. Ok, so suit costs in general are going to go up, but at the same time you get many differebt models with 1 skill, along with an ability to actually specialize with your racial role, instead of simply 'becoming viable' through a 3% here and there. Under 28db Officially nerfproof (predicting CR nerf February '14) I have a God, His name is Dakka.
Vulpes Dolosus SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 609	Posted - 2014.01.14 22:00:00 - [42] - Quote SoGÇª how will this apply to modules and weapons? Dropship Specialist Kills- Incubus: 4; Pythons: 1; Other DS: 28 Gêå1; Tanks: 27 Gêå2 1/1
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12070	Posted - 2014.01.14 22:09:00 - [43] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: SoGÇª how will this apply to modules and weapons? Not as much, I feel the whole progress of modules is far more fitting for an FPS environment and honestly something ccp should have done at the start with eve. You will still have tech 1 base adv and proto then tech 2 modules (if any) with a smattering of officers, army, and pirate factions gear at top of the trees. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Gemini Reynolds Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 126	Posted - 2014.01.14 23:09:00 - [44] - Quote Aizen Intiki wrote: IWS, link the Dust 2.0 project post. Then people can love you even more Doo eet
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12079	Posted - 2014.01.14 23:17:00 - [45] - Quote Gemini Reynolds wrote: Aizen Intiki wrote: IWS, link the Dust 2.0 project post. Then people can love you even more Doo eet been done https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=126376 CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
knight of 6 SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 1031	Posted - 2014.01.15 00:32:00 - [46] - Quote great illustrations and they are immediately familiar to an eve player. if you added in bonuses I think it would better illustrate the effects of tiericide. a T2 (tech 2)(sorta like proto but not at all like proto) frame is simply more specialized than it's tech 1(standard) equivalent. an assault is probably the easiest thing to demonstrate this with. amarr med fame "Paul" bonus: { . [%] laser PG/CPU cost . [%] laser heat build } amarr med frame "Dakar" bonus: { . [%] bonus armor HP . [%] laser laser damage } T2 amarr med frame "Paul" bonus: { . amarr med frame bonus: . { . . [%] laser PG/CPU cost . . [%] laser heat build . { [%] bonus laser damage [%] reload speed reduction } T2 amarr med frame "Dakar" bonus: { . amarr med frame bonus: . { . . [%] bonus armor HP . . [%] swarm launcher damage . { [%] swarm launcher reload speed [%] swarm flight speed } some of you may be saying I was following you until the "T2 Dakar bonus" WTF happened there? welcome to the cluster kitten that is T2 bonuses sometime they completely change the role of the frame. tiericide is interesting because it poses the question "do you want extra damage and tank? or the fitting and heat bonus? and while T2 "Paul" is basically a proto suit, T2 "Dakar" is a beastly AV frame. these questions and trades make it interesting to fight and adds another layer of complexity to fitting without making the fitting process harder to learn. I think tiericide in suits(I haven't been sold on weapons or mods yet) is an extremely interesting Idea that would add needed depth and complexity to the game as well as making it more new player friendly. it should be implemented with the utmost haste. authors notes: Paul and Dakar are names of variables I use in programming, they have no significance. Rarara add post formatting tools to the forums I need my tab key back if you were thinking, those bonuses look familiar .....Paul = Omen .....Dakar = Mallar .....T2 "Paul" = Zealot .....T2 "dakar" = Sacrilege why did I pick Amarr? I fly Amarr in EvE and am familiar with the bonuses, also the Sacrilege demonstrates how drastically fittings can change between T1 and T2 really well. this post took about 3 hours to research, plan out, organize, format, and type, so if you found it helpful I'd appreciate the "like". I don't pander for likes but I feel it's deserved here. thanks! "God favors the side with the best artillery" ~ Napoleon Ko6, scout, tanker. CLOSED BETA VET
deepfried salad gilliam Sanguine Knights 380	Posted - 2014.01.15 01:06:00 - [47] - Quote i am not a fan of tiericide i do believe that the bonuses should be in the suit not the skill and it shouldn't be 5 times the bonus at max lvl the skill tree and suits need a large reworking but that's not the way to go Proud Christian one of the most essential parts of eve is left out of dust: freedom, exploration, open-world gameplay.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12091	Posted - 2014.01.15 02:55:00 - [48] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: great illustrations and they are immediately familiar to an eve player. if you added in bonuses I think it would better illustrate the effects of tiericide. a T2 (tech 2)(sorta like proto but not at all like proto) frame is simply more specialized than it's tech 1(standard) equivalent. an assault is probably the easiest thing to demonstrate this with. amarr med fame "Paul" bonus: { . [%] laser PG/CPU cost . [%] laser heat build } amarr med frame "Dakar" bonus: { . [%] bonus armor HP . [%] laser laser damage } T2 amarr med frame "Paul" bonus: { . amarr med frame bonus: . { . . [%] laser PG/CPU cost . . [%] laser heat build . { [%] bonus laser damage [%] reload speed reduction } T2 amarr med frame "Dakar" bonus: { . amarr med frame bonus: . { . . [%] bonus armor HP . . [%] swarm launcher damage . { [%] swarm launcher reload speed [%] swarm flight speed } some of you may be saying I was following you until the "T2 Dakar bonus" WTF happened there? welcome to the cluster kitten that is T2 bonuses sometime they completely change the role of the frame. tiericide is interesting because it poses the question "do you want extra damage and tank? or the fitting and heat bonus? and while T2 "Paul" is basically a proto suit, T2 "Dakar" is a beastly AV frame. these questions and trades make it interesting to fight and adds another layer of complexity to fitting without making the fitting process harder to learn. I think tiericide in suits(I haven't been sold on weapons or mods yet) is an extremely interesting Idea that would add needed depth and complexity to the game as well as making it more new player friendly. it should be implemented with the utmost haste. authors notes: Paul and Dakar are names of variables I use in programming, they have no significance. Rarara add post formatting tools to the forums I need my tab key back if you were thinking, those bonuses look familiar .....Paul = Omen .....Dakar = Mallar .....T2 "Paul" = Zealot .....T2 "dakar" = Sacrilege why did I pick Amarr? I fly Amarr in EvE and am familiar with the bonuses, also the Sacrilege demonstrates how drastically fittings can change between T1 and T2 really well. this post took about 3 hours to research, plan out, organize, format, and type, so if you found it helpful I'd appreciate the "like". I don't pander for likes but I feel it's deserved here. thanks! Yup basically how I imagined bonuses to work to some degree as well under plan b model. Plan A is to tailor tech 1 suits to being generalists and tech 2 specialists, plan b which I am somewhat trying to move away from as it factors into the 'power creep' would have tech 1 base bonuses and tech 2 building up on tech 1. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
knight guard fury The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 817	Posted - 2014.01.15 03:41:00 - [49] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Since people can't read. Before Teiricide With Captions After Teiricide (and yes I realized I need to find an image hosting service without annoying advertisements) Edit : Yes I noticed the link slot on the pre teiricide being a typo sorry; and no the slots are theorycrafting from flipping the minmatar suit over...) As you can see this gets rid of climbing up the tree overall but now breaks out into branching the tree out to more interesting branches. Militia -> Basic Tech 1 -> Advanced Tech 2 as you can notice is losing slots as it goes up but it trades it for additional specialized bonuses. Suits start off with meager fittings when you train their suit command to 1, but as you train up command skills for the specific suits that need it to operate you will be then getting more fitting, and more bonuses thus allows you to develop and specialize the suit further. Also under Teiricide 'type 2 and type 3s' return and are a part of the logical progression where type 2 and 3s are not better just different dice rolled for the same class. Tech 1s get tech 2 previews of the suits as you can notice one class is suited to being a pilot, one a scout, and one a spec ops by slot layouts alone. Milita (not shown) post teiricide has 'fixed bonuses' and does not gain anything per level and fitting overall is pretty low despite having the highest number of slots verses its tech 1 cousin. While powerful for a rookie at the start once the rookie starts investing into the skill of the amarr light around lvl 2 and 3 the tech 1 suits start to outperform the militia suit in terms of fitting then bonuses. Despite this none of the suits get obsoleted by skill training as the captioned pre teiricide cuts out clearly. A maxed out amarr light operator can still effectively use the tech 1 suits to a great advantage and would currently achieve the 'going cheaper' motif the current specialist advanced suits enjoy. While tech 2 is for going 'pro'. The only reason not to use a certain suit on any of these post teiricide trees is the simple fact its not your play style, some people like their sidearms some don't care to lose it for a second equipment slot. And yes the three tech 1 suits will have different models under the new teiricide when art allows for it. For those of you wondering this was taken from my Dust 2.0 project, part of the 'tech tree' while rather mostly incomplete you can see how things progress through the tech tree. I wont have time to answer everything though as 1 the tree is incomplete and two the answers are going to require another document the inventory which has full descriptors. This is mostly for my own self reference. References: Tech Tree (Work in Progress) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqHgiF-KXQZXdDdKYjRQT193VDlfbFM5b0FwdlB5Ymc&usp=drive_web#gid=3 Dust 2.0 Project https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=126376 i like this idea... and just like eve, instead of getting better stuff as you lvl up the suits, you need to lvl up your skills,shields,armor, etc. to make the suit more effective, thus creating a more balanced game for most players. Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
Cosgar ParagonX 9095	Posted - 2014.01.15 11:59:00 - [50] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: SoGÇª how will this apply to modules and weapons? Not as much, I feel the whole progress of modules is far more fitting for an FPS environment and honestly something ccp should have done at the start with eve. You will still have tech 1 base adv and proto then tech 2 modules (if any) with a smattering of officers, army, and pirate factions gear at top of the trees. As requested added references. Don't ask about stuff on the trees in here ask about it in the other thread. Making extenders and plates similar to vehicles would be a step in the right direction under this system. Large HP bonus, high CPU/PG cost so you can barely fit more than one complex plate or extender depending on your suit while making rechargers, regulators, reppers, and other modules cheaper to fit than they are now. That would deter hybrid tanking from being the only meta and after a few well placed buffs, make other modules more relevant. I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"

Kierkegaard Soren Forsaken Immortals Top Men. 111	Posted - 2014.01.15 12:08:00 - [51] - Quote It just makes sense. In all honestly though, what is the realistic probability that CCP will ever adopt this approach? Dedicated Commando. So it's a good job KDR doesn't bother me, really.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12127	Posted - 2014.01.15 15:22:00 - [52] - Quote Kierkegaard Soren wrote: It just makes sense. In all honestly though, what is the realistic probability that CCP will ever adopt this approach? Depends how much sense I can sell and how much support I can garner. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Adelia Lafayette Science For Death 550	Posted - 2014.01.15 16:22:00 - [53] - Quote Keep fighting the good fight IWS. I have been for this for a while. I hope to see it sooner than soonTM Assault dropship gets blown up.... (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ "Kitten this I'm out"... ..."I'm back"
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 1036	Posted - 2014.01.15 17:01:00 - [54] - Quote CCP should hire you IWS. **** yeah! You hit the nail on the head. CCP could just copypasta this into their item db and it would with high probability work better than what we have today. I support tiericide. Also. Adv/proto vehicles should not be implemented. Just variations of the basic ones and all racial configs as well as pirate factions, etc (similar to OP).
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2015	Posted - 2014.01.15 17:07:00 - [55] - Quote Signed and Supported. A-Teams win Battles B-Teams win Campaigns C-Teams win Wars
Cpt Merdock The Exemplars Top Men. 174	Posted - 2014.01.17 02:28:00 - [56] - Quote I could live with this, it make specialized roles more relevant to the game and may even kill that damn virus known as "Flavour of the Month"
knight guard fury The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 820	Posted - 2014.01.17 02:51:00 - [57] - Quote but we still need to keep our officer weapons though Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12170	Posted - 2014.01.17 04:05:00 - [58] - Quote knight guard fury wrote: but we still need to keep our officer weapons though Like I said weapons and modules are likely to be untouched in this teiricide modules they will be the drive behind specialization as you seek to make these highest end gear fit reliably without sacrificing too much. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12614	Posted - 2014.01.26 06:40:00 - [59] - Quote Cpt Merdock wrote: I could live with this, it make specialized roles more relevant to the game and may even kill that damn virus known as "Flavour of the Month" There will still be a flavour of the month but it will be less pronounced and far far easier to balance out (instead of adjusting up to possibly 9 suits or more (vanity suits) CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Fizzer94 L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1677	Posted - 2014.01.26 07:38:00 - [60] - Quote Hmmm. I'm not sure about your suggested pricings. In EVE, you don't die nearly as much, and keeping a ship from exploding is fairly easy. In Dust... you die. A lot. What if someone wants to run a specialized suit like logistics (tech 2) all the time? Should they just never make profits? The ISK prices should be closer together for the different tech levels, and should all hover around the 10-15K ISK range. Yours Truly, Reginald Fizzer94 Delafontaine III, Esquire

Fizzer94 L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1678	Posted - 2014.01.26 07:39:00 - [61] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: CCP should hire you IWS. **** yeah! You hit the nail on the head. CCP could just copypasta this into their item db and it would with high probability work better than what we have today. I support tiericide. Also. Adv/proto vehicles should not be implemented. Just variations of the basic ones and all racial configs as well as pirate factions, etc (similar to OP). They did hire him. He just isn't getting paid for it... Yours Truly, Reginald Fizzer94 Delafontaine III, Esquire
Maken Tosch Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6581	Posted - 2014.01.26 07:56:00 - [62] - Quote Joseph Ridgeson wrote: What is the likelihood of this happening? Thanks for all the information you are constantly giving us players. Be well. -Joseph This is possible to do. CCP has been known to do well with tiericides in Eve Online. Each tier of the ships retains an ability that other tiers lack. Case in point: Exhumers. Before Tieracide Exhumers >Skiff - Mining yield bonus with bonus to Mercoxit mining and some cargo space. >>Mackinaw - Some more mining yield with bonus to Ice mining. Has more cargo space. >>>Hulk - Best mining Yield with bonus to yield. Has the best cargo space. Notice the arrows next to the ships indicating that you needed to train up the Skiff first before using the Mackinaw and you have to train up the Mackinaw before training the Hulk. After Tieracide Exhumers >Skiff - Bonus to Mercoxit mining but with excellent tanking and warping capabilities for low/null-sec operations. Now often being used as part of a gate-camping fleet due to their high targeting resolution and battleship-like tank against the gate guns. Also the best choice for ninja mining in dangerous areas of space. >Mackinaw - Bonus to Ice mining now with excellent hauling space for ore (up to 35,000m3 of space) but suffers a loss in tanking capabilities due to the expanded cargo hold. The best choice for AFK miners. >Hulk - Not much tank or cargo space, but does offer a tremendous bonus to mining yield making them the best choice for high-yield mining operations. Notice the arrows again signifying that you only need to train up Exhumers to level 1 to access all ships. Further training of this skill will then be used to enhance the ships affected. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer *CLOSED BETA VETERAN SINCE REPLICATION BUILD*
Fizzer94 L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1678	Posted - 2014.01.26 08:02:00 - [63] - Quote ^This is why I want Tiericide. But I would so be not happy if my suit costs 200K by default just because I want to Logi. Yours Truly, Reginald Fizzer94 Delafontaine III, Esquire
THUNDERGROOVE ZionTCD Public Disorder. 473	Posted - 2014.01.26 08:05:00 - [64] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Costs move over the modules instead. What I don't really understand is why anyone would use a suit that is "equal" balance wise to everyone else's yet costs more than what a fit prototype suit currently costs. The lack of an advantage really wouldn't really be worth the cost especially without a passive source of income that is available to the average Dust player(Not the pile of ** that is PC) and even more so with the god awful payouts we've been dealing with the past month and a half. I love the idea of it and really would like to see it happen but the only way I could see it happen is if the T2 suits are in between price wise of ADV and PRO and keeping current module prices/weapon prices the same. Director of ZionTCD** Amarr Logi \| Amarr Sentinel \| Amarr Scout (SoonGäó) TDBS
Maken Tosch Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6581	Posted - 2014.01.26 08:13:00 - [65] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Costs move over the modules instead. What I don't really understand is why anyone would use a suit that is "equal" balance wise to everyone else's yet costs more than what a fit prototype suit currently costs. The lack of an advantage really wouldn't really be worth the cost especially without a passive source of income that is available to the average Dust player(Not the pile of ** that is PC) and even more so with the god awful payouts we've been dealing with the past month and a half. I love the idea of it and really would like to see it happen but the only way I could see it happen is if the T2 suits are in between price wise of ADV and PRO and keeping current module prices/weapon prices the same. What we actually need is a stable industry to manufacture these items ourselves and set the prices ourselves. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer CLOSED BETA VETERAN SINCE REPLICATION BUILD**
Fizzer94 L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1679	Posted - 2014.01.26 08:19:00 - [66] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Costs move over the modules instead. What I don't really understand is why anyone would use a suit that is "equal" balance wise to everyone else's yet costs more than what a fit prototype suit currently costs. The lack of an advantage really wouldn't really be worth the cost especially without a passive source of income that is available to the average Dust player(Not the pile of **** that is PC) and even more so with the god awful payouts we've been dealing with the past month and a half. I love the idea of it and really would like to see it happen but the only way I could see it happen is if the T2 suits are in between price wise of ADV and PRO and keeping current module prices/weapon prices the same. What we actually need is a stable industry to manufacture these items ourselves and set the prices ourselves. Maybe someday. sigh Yours Truly, Reginald Fizzer94 Delafontaine III, Esquire
demonkiller 12 G.L.O.R.Y Public Disorder. 367	Posted - 2014.01.26 08:33:00 - [67] - Quote wait, recon? is this the base light suit? or will there be 3 specialised light suits?
Maken Tosch Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6581	Posted - 2014.01.26 08:44:00 - [68] - Quote demonkiller 12 wrote: wait, recon? is this the base light suit? or will there be 3 specialised light suits? It's just an idea on what tieracide looks like. It's not actual data to go by. Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer *CLOSED BETA VETERAN SINCE REPLICATION BUILD*
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1481	Posted - 2014.01.26 08:55:00 - [69] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: THUNDERGROOVE wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Costs move over the modules instead. What I don't really understand is why anyone would use a suit that is "equal" balance wise to everyone else's yet costs more than what a fit prototype suit currently costs. The lack of an advantage really wouldn't really be worth the cost especially without a passive source of income that is available to the average Dust player(Not the pile of **** that is PC) and even more so with the god awful payouts we've been dealing with the past month and a half. I love the idea of it and really would like to see it happen but the only way I could see it happen is if the T2 suits are in between price wise of ADV and PRO and keeping current module prices/weapon prices the same. What we actually need is a stable industry to manufacture these items ourselves and set the prices ourselves. In one sense we don't set the prices - that comes down to mineral, blueprint and manufacturing costs. Market forces will do the rest. But i'm all in for us having the ability to manufacture for ourselves. It could protect us if any agency(DUST or EVE) tries to corner a market. Hard to do though, the DUST market is large and should be fed by many different manufacturers. I support SP rollover.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12616	Posted - 2014.01.26 09:10:00 - [70] - Quote The thing is though is that under a proper teiricide system a tech 1 suit fully fitted with basic gear is not only perfectly acceptable but the battlefield norm and demanded by leadership. And and proto gear could be treated like eve's where those modules though better are not cost effective to run all the time; what drives this email n eve is supply off said modules. Tech 1 and tech 2 are manufacturable where as their adv, limited, and prototype gear is not and is drops only. Those modules also are tiered as well requiring higher skip levels to use. A prototype module in eve is as powerful as a tech 2 module usually without the skill requirement nor does that t bnifit from tech 2 skills. Either way if teiricide can be pulled off proper tech 1 is going to be the bread and butter. If you want better gear you're going to have to generate game play to obtain them. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked

Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 1093	Posted - 2014.01.26 09:14:00 - [71] - Quote I like that the suits cost less and modules cost more. It definately adds another dimension to theorycrafting, cost efficiency. So, i-¦m assuming you have presented this to CCP. Can you comment if they are positive to tiericide? Or any other change to the infantry skill tree to make dropsuits more accessible in the short term?
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12617	Posted - 2014.01.26 09:24:00 - [72] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: I like that the suits cost less and modules cost more. It definately adds another dimension to theorycrafting, cost efficiency. So, i-¦m assuming you have presented this to CCP. Can you comment if they are positive to tiericide? Or any other change to the infantry skill tree to make dropsuits more accessible in the short term? Actually no, though someone else tweeted my work before I was ready so got things to do. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Marc Rime 231	Posted - 2014.01.26 14:16:00 - [73] - Quote I don't get it. New content doesn't magically appear as a consequence of removing tiers. Removing tiers would only result in 2/3 of the dropsuits disappearing and remove (or at least limit) the whole "should I risk losing ISK on this game, or should I play it safe with weaker fits?"-aspect of the game. Don't get me wrong, more variety and specialised suits would be great, but why not ask for that (if that's what we want)?
fragmentedhackslash FREE AGENTS LP 98	Posted - 2014.01.26 14:34:00 - [74] - Quote I currently have the ability to fit over 30. ISK, AUR,and LP weapons. I am restricted to 28 suit fitments. Fix this please. Pain is just weakness leaving your body. Every day is a holiday. Every meal is a feast.
Cooper Eudaemon DUST University Ivy League 150	Posted - 2014.01.26 15:19:00 - [75] - Quote I hate to be that guy, but I can't see the pictures you linked. Wat do. I need a break from Dust! I'll just go hop on the forums... I need a break from the forums! I'll just go hop on Dust...
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12626	Posted - 2014.01.26 16:12:00 - [76] - Quote Marc Rime wrote: I don't get it. New content doesn't magically appear as a consequence of removing tiers. Removing tiers would only result in 2/3 of the dropsuits disappearing and remove (or at least limit) the whole "should I risk losing ISK on this game, or should I play it safe with weaker fits?"-aspect of the game. Don't get me wrong, more variety and specialised suits would be great, but why not ask for that (if that's what we want)? Currently right now we have problems in the overall arching design of the game. You are right on the grounds of content being removed. Where you missing the point is the quality and retention of content. Let's take weapons in other popular FPS games then. Doom 2 You start off with the measly pistol, but as you go further along you eventually get the minigun and never looked back. The two uses the same ammo but the mini-gun is far vastly superior to the pistol due to the rate of fire alone, there is simply no need to swap back to the pistol ever unless you wanted to be macho that day but we go the chainsaw for that. Now lets take a look at a shooter that in similar analogy performed teiricide on the guns. Halo: Combat Evolved You pick up the magnum. Yet despite picking up the assault rifle, plasma rifle, and even more powerful weapons such as rocket launcher and sniper rifle the pistol remains and still is an amazing powerful and a weapon you can not only fallback onto but if the game supported it enough beat the game with its use and it would actually not be considered a macho move but the exact opposite. In dust 514 we have dozens of suits that fall into the category of the doom pistol. that by simply getting the minigun equivalent there is no need to go back to those suits ever, not even to save isk because the suit of higher tier is absolutely better in every way imaginable including the cost effectiveness. While ideally would be to replace the suits individually this is not possible for every suit is a totem in what we have at most 20 totem poles. So to remedy this the need to come in and chop these totems apart and place them into different totem poles all together. A teiricide with the new racial suits included and preserving the number of classes would lead to 24 totem poles still despite losing 2/3rd of the suits. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Fizzer94 L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1687	Posted - 2014.01.26 16:16:00 - [77] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Marc Rime wrote: I don't get it. New content doesn't magically appear as a consequence of removing tiers. Removing tiers would only result in 2/3 of the dropsuits disappearing and remove (or at least limit) the whole "should I risk losing ISK on this game, or should I play it safe with weaker fits?"-aspect of the game. Don't get me wrong, more variety and specialised suits would be great, but why not ask for that (if that's what we want)? Currently right now we have problems in the overall arching design of the game. You are right on the grounds of content being removed. Where you missing the point is the quality and retention of content. Let's take weapons in other popular FPS games then. Doom 2 You start off with the measly pistol, but as you go further along you eventually get the minigun and never looked back. The two uses the same ammo but the mini-gun is far vastly superior to the pistol due to the rate of fire alone, there is simply no need to swap back to the pistol ever unless you wanted to be macho that day but we go the chainsaw for that. Now lets take a look at a shooter that in similar analogy performed teiricide on the guns. Halo: Combat Evolved You pick up the magnum. Yet despite picking up the assault rifle, plasma rifle, and even more powerful weapons such as rocket launcher and sniper rifle the pistol remains and still is an amazing powerful and a weapon you can not only fallback onto but if the game supported it enough beat the game with its use and it would actually not be considered a macho move but the exact opposite. I just realized that the Scrambler Pistol is > Combat Evolved Pistol. ScP is OP as hell. Jus'sayin. Yours Truly, Reginald Fizzer94 Delafontaine III, Esquire
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12627	Posted - 2014.01.26 16:32:00 - [78] - Quote Cooper Eudaemon wrote: I hate to be that guy, but I can't see the pictures you linked. Wat do. Well I won't do quick captions but I am sure you can look this document up right? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqHgiF-KXQZXdDdKYjRQT193VDlfbFM5b0FwdlB5Ymc&usp=docslist_api#gid=0 This is mostly my idea and there are a few extra classes thrown in but these suits in this chart are the only one of its tier. There is no advanced or prototype suit. Take note of the suit type designation and see how things progress between the skill levels needed by displayed names. Then you can mouse over the names for the light frames and read their bonuses and compare the stats between tech 1 and tech 2. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Maken Tosch Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6586	Posted - 2014.01.26 17:34:00 - [79] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: In one sense we don't set the prices - that comes down to mineral, blueprint and manufacturing costs. Market forces will do the rest. But i'm all in for us having the ability to manufacture for ourselves. It could protect us if any agency(DUST or EVE) tries to corner a market. Hard to do though, the DUST market is large and should be fed by many different manufacturers. Actually in Eve Online we do set the prices regardless of the mineral costs. And I mean that in the sense that we have the physical/technical capability to do so. Pretty much like that joke on why Cain killed Abel. Because he was Able. Often times people try to set higher prices than normal which is often a tactic used by smart marketeers who run margin trade scams. How this specific scam works can be best described by this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=18942 I'm not sure if this tactic is still being used today since the thread I linked dates back a few years. Can someone who is also an Eve player confirm this? Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer *CLOSED BETA VETERAN SINCE REPLICATION BUILD*
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12634	Posted - 2014.01.26 17:58:00 - [80] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: In one sense we don't set the prices - that comes down to mineral, blueprint and manufacturing costs. Market forces will do the rest. But i'm all in for us having the ability to manufacture for ourselves. It could protect us if any agency(DUST or EVE) tries to corner a market. Hard to do though, the DUST market is large and should be fed by many different manufacturers. Actually in Eve Online we do set the prices regardless of the mineral costs. And I mean that in the sense that we have the physical/technical capability to do so. Pretty much like that joke on why Cain killed Abel. Because he was Able. Often times people try to set higher prices than normal which is often a tactic used by smart marketeers who run margin trade scams. How this specific scam works can be best described by this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=18942 I'm not sure if this tactic is still being used today since the thread I linked dates back a few years. Can someone who is also an Eve player confirm this? It is still around today unfortunately. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked

Noragee Silverfire HavoK Core RISE of LEGION 47	Posted - 2014.01.26 18:24:00 - [81] - Quote Finally convinced me that this is a good idea and will improve the game. Signs name to effort.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 1482	Posted - 2014.01.26 18:28:00 - [82] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: In one sense we don't set the prices - that comes down to mineral, blueprint and manufacturing costs. Market forces will do the rest. But i'm all in for us having the ability to manufacture for ourselves. It could protect us if any agency(DUST or EVE) tries to corner a market. Hard to do though, the DUST market is large and should be fed by many different manufacturers. Actually in Eve Online we do set the prices regardless of the mineral costs. And I mean that in the sense that we have the physical/technical capability to do so. Pretty much like that joke on why Cain killed Abel. Because he was Able. Often times people try to set higher prices than normal which is often a tactic used by smart marketeers who run margin trade scams. How this specific scam works can be best described by this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=18942 I'm not sure if this tactic is still being used today since the thread I linked dates back a few years. Can someone who is also an Eve player confirm this? I've used that scam myself to control specific ammo pricing for 10 jumps in under-serviced missioning systems, but tbh it's a few years since i've engaged in such practices. I really just tried it for purposes of self-education, your Honor. It's an income stream that relies on human error/laziness. Technically you are right, the system allows us to set whatever prices we choose and so it should. Margin scams are interesting but are also a special case. In our context and for this argument that's largely irrelevant. Look at the margins on T1 ships in EVE - so thin that a dedicated manufacturer needs a highly refined & active supply network, market pvp, and a maniacal eye for efficiencies to turn any profit at all. In this far more common scenario, prices are set by the blueprint specified material requirements, supply & demand, speculation & manipulation respectively, with orders of magnitude between their relative effect on the final market price of commodity items. The big question for DUST will be the nature of the localization of the market and the transportation mechanisms available to Bunnies. It's the regional gating of the market that makes much of the price manipulation possible in EVE. At this point i'm not sure how much that is going to affect us. But even in the worst-case scenario(i.e. just like EVE), newbros should be well-protected in their suit/module cost by virtue of the fact that everything they use ought to be a high-volume commodity item. The vets may have to pay a little more attention when shopping for their more-rare gear. I support SP rollover.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 6011	Posted - 2014.01.26 18:52:00 - [83] - Quote Another seal of approval for the ironwolf! Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Mortedeamor 1285	Posted - 2014.01.26 19:10:00 - [84] - Quote ive agreed with you iws on this ever since you explained it to me on irc..its a simply marvelous idea that i pray ccp takes very VERY seriously as this would certainly bring life and versatility to a game that i have grown to hate keep up the good work you are a steady pillar pointing ccp to the right path you have my thanks :p +1 for IWS to stay as cpm more-tae-dee-um-more stop asking how to pronounce my name its quiet irritating
Marc Rime 233	Posted - 2014.01.26 21:53:00 - [85] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: In dust 514 we have dozens of suits that fall into the category of the doom pistol. that by simply getting the minigun equivalent there is no need to go back to those suits ever, not even to save isk because the suit of higher tier is absolutely better in every way imaginable including the cost effectiveness. But they're not always more cost efficient, if they were, everyone would always run proto and they don't. It's only safe when you're on the team doing the stomping. In a balanced game or on the losing team you're likely to lose ISK - though it may be worth it anyway ofc ;). The above isn't really the point though. Even if I'm wrong and proto is always better I don't see the problem with tiers. So what if MLT, STD and ADV suits are mere stepping stones until you reach "endgame"? No resources are wasted on them -- it's not like they could free up awesome suit models or something if they would only remove the tiers. In EVE, it made sense, but the situation there was totally different from what we have here. ...or is there something I'm missing?
Waiyu Ren Immortal Guides 18	Posted - 2014.01.26 23:25:00 - [86] - Quote The grind to get from the first stepping stone to the "endgame" is obscene. And i'm saying that as a dedicated RPG enthusiast... I actually gave up on the event this week, because after doing the math i saw that all i was going to get out of it for the effort i was willing to put in, was an advanced level suit. Once i actually figured out how to play this game, and understand what everything did, my first thought was "WTF. I skill up, get automatically better at a base-line level, but also have access to equipment now that is also better at the base-line?" The way it is set up now is as if this were meant to be a PvE game.... It isn't. Skill upgrading OR suit upgrading, yeah fine, but double-dipping? That is a truly horrible thing to let players do to each other, it will always be abused where and how it can. Also, and kind of trolling, kind of serious, I would even like to see advanced and pro modules getting more efficient rather than simply better. Have the suits all have more slots, but most of them simply can't be used until a player can afford to fit the more efficient versions, with stacking bonus reductions of course! Shouting doesn't make your opinion seem more valid, it just makes you seem more annoying.
manboar thunder fist SAM-MIK 25	Posted - 2014.01.26 23:48:00 - [87] - Quote I prefer the current 1.8 will shoot my amarr logi in the face with an ion pistol then bury it under a caldari heavy. No, not alive thankfully
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12647	Posted - 2014.01.27 00:58:00 - [88] - Quote Marc Rime wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: In dust 514 we have dozens of suits that fall into the category of the doom pistol. that by simply getting the minigun equivalent there is no need to go back to those suits ever, not even to save isk because the suit of higher tier is absolutely better in every way imaginable including the cost effectiveness. But they're not always more cost efficient, if they were, everyone would always run proto and they don't. It's only safe when you're on the team doing the stomping. In a balanced game or on the losing team you're likely to lose ISK - though it may be worth it anyway ofc ;). The above isn't really the point though. Even if I'm wrong and proto is always better I don't see the problem with tiers. So what if MLT, STD and ADV suits are mere stepping stones until you reach "endgame"? No resources are wasted on them -- it's not like they could free up awesome suit models or something if they would only remove the tiers. In EVE, it made sense, but the situation there was totally different from what we have here. ...or is there something I'm missing? EDIT: Again, the kind of variety you've outlined would be really nice to have. I'm just saying it's possible to add that type of content without removing the tiers, and that removing the tiers won't really speed up or ease the creation of that content. One scenario would be the prototype medium frame of being an underclasses tier worth none of the skill points going into it. For cost savings the general populance would use advanced suits instead of proto or straight militia for lost cause fighting. Under my tiericide idea (as there is more than one way yo skin this cat) everyone who trained even trains one level into that suit gets the best suit available. The difference between a newbie and a rookie is how much more potential that can be squeezed.out of that dropsuit bonus and expanded fitting ability. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Cooper Eudaemon DUST University Ivy League 158	Posted - 2014.01.27 01:47:00 - [89] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Cooper Eudaemon wrote: I hate to be that guy, but I can't see the pictures you linked. Wat do. Well I won't do quick captions but I am sure you can look this document up right? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqHgiF-KXQZXdDdKYjRQT193VDlfbFM5b0FwdlB5Ymc&usp=docslist_api#gid=0 This is mostly my idea and there are a few extra classes thrown in but these suits in this chart are the only one of its tier. There is no advanced or prototype suit. Take note of the suit type designation and see how things progress between the skill levels needed by displayed names. Then you can mouse over the names for the light frames and read their bonuses and compare the stats between tech 1 and tech 2. Seems like a completely different paradigm than what we have now; though I don't play EVE, this layout seems to mesh better with how skills and ships and fittings work in that game. It is a good bit more complicated, and my only concern is that it might raise the barrier of entry to the point that, like EVE, a new player would be utterly lost without the help of a corp and several hours of study in wikis and on youtube. I need a break from Dust! I'll just go hop on the forums... I need a break from the forums! I'll just go hop on Dust...
One Eyed King Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic 258	Posted - 2014.01.27 02:18:00 - [90] - Quote Yes please!!! In IWS we trust. This scout thanks you CCP!!!

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12649	Posted - 2014.01.27 05:05:00 - [91] - Quote Cooper Eudaemon wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Cooper Eudaemon wrote: I hate to be that guy, but I can't see the pictures you linked. Wat do. Well I won't do quick captions but I am sure you can look this document up right? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqHgiF-KXQZXdDdKYjRQT193VDlfbFM5b0FwdlB5Ymc&usp=docslist_api#gid=0 This is mostly my idea and there are a few extra classes thrown in but these suits in this chart are the only one of its tier. There is no advanced or prototype suit. Take note of the suit type designation and see how things progress between the skill levels needed by displayed names. Then you can mouse over the names for the light frames and read their bonuses and compare the stats between tech 1 and tech 2. Seems like a completely different paradigm than what we have now; though I don't play EVE, this layout seems to mesh better with how skills and ships and fittings work in that game. It is a good bit more complicated, and my only concern is that it might raise the barrier of entry to the point that, like EVE, a new player would be utterly lost without the help of a corp and several hours of study in wikis and on youtube. Ah but the barrier of entry is now an educational one, no longer that of just having lots of sp and top end gear. If you fit your suit like some of the best veterans with some of the weaker modules you can manage to fit at early levels you should perform nearly as admirably as the veteran stats wise. Ultimately this gets rid of 'proto stomping' as well without removing veteran feel of progression. Veterans will have access to the most exotic and hardest to fit modules for that every ounce of performance when the time calls for it because the cost and frequency of the modules providing that much more powerful is not as likely when player market is fully involved making it very cost inefficient to run in a normal non isk gaining activity (PVP should remain a material gathering activity, co-op missioning when and if introduced should be isk generating activity, with market and loot being the isk transferral activity.) CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Joel II X Dah Gods O Bacon 689	Posted - 2014.01.27 05:46:00 - [92] - Quote With tiericide, what suits will we have? Ones that look like their standard variant, or their prototype variants?
Pvt Numnutz Black Phoenix Mercenaries Legacy Rising 685	Posted - 2014.01.27 06:02:00 - [93] - Quote I don't like the idea for tierecide on suits. I think it would make it more dull.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12657	Posted - 2014.01.27 06:17:00 - [94] - Quote Joel II X wrote: With tiericide, what suits will we have? Ones that look like their standard variant, or their prototype variants? leaning toward prototype slot layouts for tech 1, and advanced layouts for tech 2s (they get more bonuses and built in stats to make up for it though) CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12670	Posted - 2014.01.27 17:16:00 - [95] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: I don't like the idea for tierecide on suits. I think it would make it more dull. Explain? because we are rapidly approaching in the number of suits beyond the number of ships eve online has and we have FAR FAR fewer ways to enjoy the game whereas in eve almost every ship is a new experience. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Tallen Ellecon KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1311	Posted - 2014.01.27 17:51:00 - [96] - Quote This is the kind of overhaul I'd like to see sooner rather than later. It would require a complete respec on an Uprising 1.0 scale. Where is my Gallente sidearm? 1.8? When is that? SoonGäó514
Viktor Hadah Jr Critical-Impact 2195	Posted - 2014.01.28 07:34:00 - [97] - Quote Where do BPO's fit in this master plan? Selling Rare Templar BPO's 250Mil ISK
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12698	Posted - 2014.01.28 07:35:00 - [98] - Quote Viktor Hadah Jr wrote: Where do BPO's fit in this master plan? As manufacturing devices. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 1101	Posted - 2014.01.28 08:25:00 - [99] - Quote I have never seen a person this dedicated to changing a game. Since you are also a CPM, I think CCP should integrate your work and involve you in the dev process somehow. Maybe they should put together a taskforce consisting of CCP Wolfman and IWS to perform tiericide on suits. Your work will give them a great pointer in the right direction, but I guess they want to change stuff as well, since everything might not fit into their design philosophy. Estimated manhours: 1 month IWS + 1 month CCP employee (Wolfman). 1 month of manhours to implement for CCP Shanghai when specification is finished. Of course, IWS should be paid for his work as a consultant for CCP. Prepare for 1.8: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPhISgw3I2w
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 476	Posted - 2014.01.28 18:08:00 - [100] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Viktor Hadah Jr wrote: Where do BPO's fit in this master plan? As manufacturing devices. Hey, sorry off topic, but free bump. I take back the mean things I ever said to you. You are right, about Takahiro Kashuken, sense isn't a strong point of his. Sorry fella. Nuff Said

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12727	Posted - 2014.01.28 18:22:00 - [101] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Viktor Hadah Jr wrote: Where do BPO's fit in this master plan? As manufacturing devices. Hey, sorry off topic, but free bump. I take back the mean things I ever said to you. You are right, about Takahiro Kashuken, sense isn't a strong point of his. Sorry fella. That's okay just when you cut through many brambles as I have you get to know who hardheaded or not. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Ivan Avogadro Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 666	Posted - 2014.01.28 18:26:00 - [102] - Quote I like the idea. But whether or not Tiericide is the answer, I do believe CCP needs to do something about the PRO Frame suits, which are simultaneously more expensive and have less bonuses.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 12736	Posted - 2014.01.28 20:32:00 - [103] - Quote Ivan Avogadro wrote: I like the idea. But whether or not Tiericide is the answer, I do believe CCP needs to do something about the PRO Frame suits, which are simultaneously more expensive and have less bonuses. While tetricide may not be the answer I know what isn't the answer either and that is they current system. Something needs to change somehow. There are also like I said other people's approaches to teiricide; my model just happens to copy eve's a bit more closely. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 13106	Posted - 2014.02.16 20:22:00 - [104] - Quote Refreshing. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 1232	Posted - 2014.02.16 20:28:00 - [105] - Quote More like This is what it would do to dropsuits in DUST. Yet again a fix because everyone plays public high security matches because there isn't anything else to do. A Giant waste of time for a problem that exists for a completely different reason.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 13108	Posted - 2014.02.16 21:34:00 - [106] - Quote Bethhy wrote: More like This is what it would do to dropsuits in DUST. Yet again a fix because everyone plays public high security matches because there isn't anything else to do. A Giant waste of time for a problem that exists for a completely different reason. The number of problems are excessively massive and are not isolated to just pub stomping to which I will say that gear restrictions which have been proven WILL NOT FIX. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
IMMORTAL WAR HERO NECROM0NGERS The CORVOS 83	Posted - 2014.02.16 21:40:00 - [107] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Since people can't read. Before Tiericide With Captions After Tiericide Another one in document format https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqHgiF-KXQZXdHRRekNzRFppTTloVmJjQ2xJb1VOTkE&usp=drive_web#gid=3 (and yes I realized I need to find an image hosting service without annoying advertisements) Edit : Yes I noticed the link slot on the pre tiericide being a typo sorry; and no the slots are theorycrafting from flipping the minmatar suit over...) As you can see this gets rid of climbing up the tree overall but now breaks out into branching the tree out to more interesting branches. Militia -> Basic Tech 1 -> Advanced Tech 2 as you can notice is losing slots as it goes up but it trades it for additional specialized bonuses. Suits start off with meager fittings when you train their suit command to 1, but as you train up command skills for the specific suits that need it to operate you will be then getting more fitting, and more bonuses thus allows you to develop and specialize the suit further. Also under Tiericide 'type 2 and type 3s' return and are a part of the logical progression where type 2 and 3s are not better just different dice rolled for the same class. Tech 1s get tech 2 previews of the suits as you can notice one class is suited to being a pilot, one a scout, and one a spec ops by slot layouts alone. Milita (not shown) post tiericide has 'fixed bonuses' and does not gain anything per level and fitting overall is pretty low despite having the highest number of slots verses its tech 1 cousin. While powerful for a rookie at the start once the rookie starts investing into the skill of the amarr light around lvl 2 and 3 the tech 1 suits start to outperform the militia suit in terms of fitting then bonuses. Despite this none of the suits get obsoleted by skill training as the captioned pre tiericide cuts out clearly. A maxed out amarr light operator can still effectively use the tech 1 suits to a great advantage and would currently achieve the 'going cheaper' motif the current specialist advanced suits enjoy. While tech 2 is for going 'pro'. The only reason not to use a certain suit on any of these post tiericide trees is the simple fact its not your play style, some people like their sidearms some don't care to lose it for a second equipment slot. And yes the three tech 1 suits will have different models under the new tiericide when art allows for it. For those of you wondering this was taken from my Dust 2.0 project, part of the 'tech tree' while rather mostly incomplete you can see how things progress through the tech tree. I wont have time to answer everything though as 1 the tree is incomplete and two the answers are going to require another document the inventory which has full descriptors. This is mostly for my own self reference. References: Tech Tree (Work in Progress) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqHgiF-KXQZXdDdKYjRQT193VDlfbFM5b0FwdlB5Ymc&usp=drive_web#gid=3 Dust 2.0 Project https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=126376 have i ever mentioned your my favourite cpm. hi xd Frowned upon by amateurs: The object of war is not to die for your country but make the other bastard die for his. GSP
IMMORTAL WAR HERO NECROM0NGERS The CORVOS 83	Posted - 2014.02.16 21:50:00 - [108] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Since people can't read. Before Tiericide With Captions After Tiericide Another one in document format https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqHgiF-KXQZXdHRRekNzRFppTTloVmJjQ2xJb1VOTkE&usp=drive_web#gid=3 (and yes I realized I need to find an image hosting service without annoying advertisements) Edit : Yes I noticed the link slot on the pre tiericide being a typo sorry; and no the slots are theorycrafting from flipping the minmatar suit over...) As you can see this gets rid of climbing up the tree overall but now breaks out into branching the tree out to more interesting branches. Militia -> Basic Tech 1 -> Advanced Tech 2 as you can notice is losing slots as it goes up but it trades it for additional specialized bonuses. Suits start off with meager fittings when you train their suit command to 1, but as you train up command skills for the specific suits that need it to operate you will be then getting more fitting, and more bonuses thus allows you to develop and specialize the suit further. Also under Tiericide 'type 2 and type 3s' return and are a part of the logical progression where type 2 and 3s are not better just different dice rolled for the same class. Tech 1s get tech 2 previews of the suits as you can notice one class is suited to being a pilot, one a scout, and one a spec ops by slot layouts alone. Milita (not shown) post tiericide has 'fixed bonuses' and does not gain anything per level and fitting overall is pretty low despite having the highest number of slots verses its tech 1 cousin. While powerful for a rookie at the start once the rookie starts investing into the skill of the amarr light around lvl 2 and 3 the tech 1 suits start to outperform the militia suit in terms of fitting then bonuses. Despite this none of the suits get obsoleted by skill training as the captioned pre tiericide cuts out clearly. A maxed out amarr light operator can still effectively use the tech 1 suits to a great advantage and would currently achieve the 'going cheaper' motif the current specialist advanced suits enjoy. While tech 2 is for going 'pro'. The only reason not to use a certain suit on any of these post tiericide trees is the simple fact its not your play style, some people like their sidearms some don't care to lose it for a second equipment slot. And yes the three tech 1 suits will have different models under the new tiericide when art allows for it. For those of you wondering this was taken from my Dust 2.0 project, part of the 'tech tree' while rather mostly incomplete you can see how things progress through the tech tree. I wont have time to answer everything though as 1 the tree is incomplete and two the answers are going to require another document the inventory which has full descriptors. This is mostly for my own self reference. References: Tech Tree (Work in Progress) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqHgiF-KXQZXdDdKYjRQT193VDlfbFM5b0FwdlB5Ymc&usp=drive_web#gid=3 Dust 2.0 Project https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=126376 your a genius man Frowned upon by amateurs: The object of war is not to die for your country but make the other bastard die for his. GSP
IMMORTAL WAR HERO NECROM0NGERS The CORVOS 83	Posted - 2014.02.16 21:57:00 - [109] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Since people can't read. people apparently cant spell, either Please edit your post and fix; it's driving me nuts "Tiericide" Also,when posting images that include text, please use png, not jpg. Lossy compression makes for fuzzy text :( lol i dont know what the word lossy is. Frowned upon by amateurs: The object of war is not to die for your country but make the other bastard die for his. GSP
Adelia Lafayette Science For Death 680	Posted - 2014.02.16 22:01:00 - [110] - Quote Oh this thread is still kicking about... I still support it. Assault dropship gets blown up.... (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ "Kitten this I'm out"... ..."I'm back"

Smooth Assassin Stardust Incorporation IMMORTAL REGIME 887	Posted - 2014.02.16 22:02:00 - [111] - Quote You lost me at ammar... *Assassination is my thing.*
TheAmazing FlyingPig Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 5775	Posted - 2014.02.16 22:09:00 - [112] - Quote CCP should take a lesson from CCP. Removing tiers will remove tears. Never forget May 14, 2013: Beta 2.0
Th3rdSun L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 601	Posted - 2014.02.16 23:14:00 - [113] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: Lets say this magically solves all of the 'balance' problems as you see them, after tiericide how does the economics of suits work? Will light suit v.1 be as cheap/expensive as light suit v.3? If I'm accumulating larger piles of isk, what am I generally spending it on? If the grade of equipment doesn't exponentially increase my isk cost to field it, where does my isk go? Does it just pile up? When I can choose a 1k isk suit, a 10k isk suit, and a 100k isk suit, then a 200k isk payout means something substantial. When/if all suits are similarly only specifically useful and similarly priced: 1) How does that effect the entry cost of suits-the price new players are paying to be competitive in them? 2) Are you going to assume that most of the cost of fits will lie in module fitting now? 3) Proponents of tiericide propose that suit bonuses rather than module fits will determine the uniqueness of different suit types/roles...what does this mean for the uniqueness of how each one is fit? What I haven't heard from the tiericide folks is the approach tiericide will take toward the faucet:sink relationship that current STD>ADV>PRO gear has set up. The current tiers forces a significant relationship between cost and profit per match based on how strong of a suit you field. The reason there is so much isk in the game at the moment has much less to do with tier/dropsuit balance and much more to do with the design of PC and the salvage rebates with Chromosome/Uprising. It is statistically impossible for everyone to eventually be running proto AND profit unless they all are just walking around in the game and not shooting each other. Tl;DR: STD>ADV>PRO largely exists as an economic disincentive against fielding higher tier gear because pub match profit is so low. Please explain the micro/macro economic/cost/profit/incentive side of tiericide. Otherwise, I think this idea leads to an unsustainable and ultimately boring system. Good F'n post bro! +1


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