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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1496
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Posted - 2014.01.14 20:58:00 -
[31] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Whats your opinion on modules? Keep them as is or change how they skill up? Modules will mostly still stay the same (withstanding balance needs between level) cept for in prices to eat up what suit prices are lost out with this change. How do you feel about modules having inherent disadvantages that decrease as tier increases paired with a smaller increase in benefit to what we have now? I'm mostly concerned with excessive stacking of modules, particularly HP and Damage modules on the fits we see currently. It would be much akin to some of the 1.7 vehicle modules. Most of the time this is done through fitting and gains, the gains from meta 4 to 5 is not as strong as 1 to 2 as well. Fitting will be more important under this model of tetricide I purposed (there are many other ways to do this, mine's slightly more complicated) so overall to go full proto requires a bit of dedication to make it all work out. A player in advanced gear would not feel entirely outclassed as much by a full proto but the full proto is paying a lot in time, isk, and risks for that slight edge he needs for whatever grudge match he's in and its not something he can casually use anymore.
So essentially you're saying cost runs a more linear scale but benefit is logarithmic, I can support that. Its like I tell people "I play EVE, and at the point I'm at now, I'd sell my soul for 1% more of anything". Regardless, while that serves to help the difference in STD>ADV>PRO, I am still concerned about how stale fitting has gotten. Particularly that 'active' tanking in Dust is really underutilized because More HP and Damage is usually the best option.
I currently have a thread up which needs to be updated. However it proses a sort of rock, paper scissors between modules where each have a benefit and downside which compliments each other so you're encouraged to mix and match to properly balance positives and negatives to fit your playstyle better.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=135792
1.8 Analysis - Sentinel Damage Efficiency Calcs
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Tallen Ellecon
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
1201
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Posted - 2014.01.14 21:02:00 -
[32] - Quote
I sure hope you've brought this to CCP. I wish modules were tiered more like they are in EVE to add more variety without making T2 ridiculously better than standard. At the same time the biggest limiting factor is that the whole module and weapon tier system we have now are intertwined with the suit tiering. The extra slots are great but the PG and CPU increase is important because it's still difficult to fit complex modules on a standard suit even with maxed fitting skills.
Like I said earlier I think the main problem is that this could cut into the games bottom line, because the gear itself outweighs the bonuses 95 percent of the time. As it stands weapon tiering is probably the most balanced because the passive skills and modules do far more than the actual stat increases for most weapons (excluding ranges) and the higher ISK, CPU, and PG costs balance it a bit.
But I think they should scrub the tier systems all together while this game is young. Every skill should contributes to a stat.
To continue monotizing all they'd need would have an open market, aur gear, and SP boosters. Boosters still remain important, but now aur versions of gear have less to do with getting ahead, but avoiding grind. Aur could just allow you to access a specialized suit and weapons with no skill, still being balanced because the skills make the suit. If you have the skill you can avoid the grind. Buy gear with Aur, sell it for ISK, avoid unnecessary grind. Now those who never stop playing can make enough in game to buy boosters with ISK, those with $ can sell aurum bought stuff for ISK to avoid grind.
If a bonus SP rollover system is implemented (which we need it's one of the few reasons why I hate active boosters, I can't take a break) I'd buy a booster that turned bonus SP into passive SP.
Tarn chose peace. Tallen chose war. Where is my Gallente sidearm?
SoonGäó514
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Gemini Reynolds
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
124
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Posted - 2014.01.14 21:17:00 -
[33] - Quote
Good guide, now you need to expand it. |
Aizen Intiki
Hell's Gate Inc League of Infamy
685
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Posted - 2014.01.14 21:18:00 -
[34] - Quote
IWS, link the Dust 2.0 project post. Then people can love you even more
"Hello, world!" lol, sounds like something a whore lover would say
Alt of the great Godin
I like chocolate ^___^
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Tallen Ellecon
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
1201
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Posted - 2014.01.14 21:26:00 -
[35] - Quote
I'm going to keep bumping this thread and pushing this idea until CCP gives us clear reasons why they aren't doing it. It solves the balance problems, adds variety, still incentives grind, and allows people to try useful things out at lower levels.
Tarn chose peace. Tallen chose war. Where is my Gallente sidearm?
SoonGäó514
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TechMechMeds
Swamp Marines
2089
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Posted - 2014.01.14 21:26:00 -
[36] - Quote
I'm going to state now why a lot of people are against this idea and very briefly.
Any proposal for tiericide mostly concentrates on down sides rather than stating anything beneficial right off the bat and easily gets construed as some kind of random idea that would make dust plain sht.
Very many people don't get it, I'll be informing my corp members of this idea as they think the same as I prior to understanding or they don't even know.
Mind still blown.
Level 2 forum warrior.
Minmatar and Gallente fw.
I sold my wife and kids to the Amarr for isk, its a valid tactic.
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TechMechMeds
Swamp Marines
2089
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Posted - 2014.01.14 21:35:00 -
[37] - Quote
Aizen Intiki wrote:IWS, link the Dust 2.0 project post. Then people can love you even more
This plehez.
Level 2 forum warrior.
Minmatar and Gallente fw.
I sold my wife and kids to the Amarr for isk, its a valid tactic.
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance
426
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Posted - 2014.01.14 21:42:00 -
[38] - Quote
I don't know man. Coming from anyone else, I would say great idea. But you, I just don't know. The hate I feel for you is strong like bear. IWS, tha ****, think you are cool or something.
Hey, question. WHY THE **** HAVE THEY NOT DONE THIS? And why did they not start with this!
Thanks for the pictures btw. And it's not because people CAN'T read (see there you go simply assuming **** again). Always liked pictures though (like flowcharts) they show the big picture all at once, rather than psuedo code, that makes no sense whatsoever. Might as well just write the damn code out!
I do wonder though, why they need to lose slots. What is an example of the kind of bonus you would gain from the suits. I imagine it would have to be rather large. And the slot count seems waay low. I loved the complexity the number of slots gave to my tanks pre 1.7. I spent many hours, simply figuring fits. Now though with tanks, much of that joy is gone. Nothing complex with tank fittings anymore, slap a hardener on there and call it good.
I like the idea, but I do wonder about diversity in fits.
OH, and before I forget. JOKING with the jabs, ignore them. You are cool or something, I don't hate you, and you don't always make false assumptions. (no more than the rest of us)
Nuff Said
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance
426
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Posted - 2014.01.14 21:48:00 -
[39] - Quote
Tallen Ellecon wrote:I sure hope you've brought this to CCP. I wish modules were tiered more like they are in EVE to add more variety without making T2 ridiculously better than standard. At the same time the biggest limiting factor is that the whole module and weapon tier system we have now are intertwined with the suit tiering. The extra slots are great but the PG and CPU increase is important because it's still difficult to fit complex modules on a standard suit even with maxed fitting skills.
Like I said earlier I think the main problem is that this could cut into the games bottom line, because the gear itself outweighs the bonuses 95 percent of the time. As it stands weapon tiering is probably the most balanced because the passive skills and modules do far more than the actual stat increases for most weapons (excluding ranges) and the higher ISK, CPU, and PG costs balance it a bit.
But I think they should scrub the tier systems all together while this game is young. Every skill should contributes to a stat.
To continue monotizing all they'd need would have an open market, aur gear, and SP boosters. Boosters still remain important, but now aur versions of gear have less to do with getting ahead, but avoiding grind. Aur could just allow you to access a specialized suit and weapons with no skill, still being balanced because the skills make the suit. If you have the skill you can avoid the grind. Buy gear with Aur, sell it for ISK, avoid unnecessary grind. Now those who never stop playing can make enough in game to buy boosters with ISK, those with $ can sell aurum bought stuff for ISK to avoid grind.
If a bonus SP rollover system is implemented (which we need it's one of the few reasons why I hate active boosters, I can't take a break) I'd buy a booster that turned bonus SP into passive SP.
Was going to disagree with the AUR part until I read,
Buy gear with Aur, sell for ISK, avoid unnecessary grind.
The money they could make! It's like selling buying and selling PLEX! Fits nicely with the FTP model!
Nuff Said
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Cosgar
ParagonX
9093
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Posted - 2014.01.14 21:50:00 -
[40] - Quote
This might actually save Dust.
I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
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Lynn Beck
Granite Mercenary Division Top Men.
535
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Posted - 2014.01.14 21:56:00 -
[41] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Lynn Beck wrote:Would like to see some numbers on how much you expect things to cost, is this going to mimic the EVE setup where a T1 ship costs 300k, but the T2 equivelent is like (not sure) 2 mill?
Or would specializing be same cost or negligibly higher, but module costs jumping like 1k-10k-40k a module? I don't want to see the suits go sky high though and overall it would be just estimates. Until I have a fuller picture on my end (this is taken from another project of mine) I cannot give anything accurate I say 150-250k tops for a 'proto' suit with no offshot weapons 70-150k for your cost effective builds 20-50k for a tech 1 bare bones suit. Ok, so suit costs in general are going to go up, but at the same time you get many differebt models with 1 skill, along with an ability to actually specialize with your racial role, instead of simply 'becoming viable' through a 3% here and there.
Under 28db
Officially nerfproof (predicting CR nerf February '14)
I have a God, His name is Dakka.
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Vulpes Dolosus
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
609
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Posted - 2014.01.14 22:00:00 -
[42] - Quote
SoGǪ how will this apply to modules and weapons?
Dropship Specialist
Kills- Incubus: 4; Pythons: 1; Other DS: 28 Gêå1; Tanks: 27 Gêå2
1/1
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
12070
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Posted - 2014.01.14 22:09:00 -
[43] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:SoGǪ how will this apply to modules and weapons?
Not as much, I feel the whole progress of modules is far more fitting for an FPS environment and honestly something ccp should have done at the start with eve.
You will still have tech 1 base adv and proto then tech 2 modules (if any) with a smattering of officers, army, and pirate factions gear at top of the trees.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Gemini Reynolds
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
126
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Posted - 2014.01.14 23:09:00 -
[44] - Quote
Aizen Intiki wrote:IWS, link the Dust 2.0 project post. Then people can love you even more
Doo eet |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
12079
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Posted - 2014.01.14 23:17:00 -
[45] - Quote
Gemini Reynolds wrote:Aizen Intiki wrote:IWS, link the Dust 2.0 project post. Then people can love you even more
Doo eet
been done https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=126376
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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knight of 6
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
1031
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Posted - 2014.01.15 00:32:00 -
[46] - Quote
great illustrations and they are immediately familiar to an eve player.
if you added in bonuses I think it would better illustrate the effects of tiericide. a T2 (tech 2)(sorta like proto but not at all like proto) frame is simply more specialized than it's tech 1(standard) equivalent.
an assault is probably the easiest thing to demonstrate this with.
amarr med fame "Paul" bonus: { . [%] laser PG/CPU cost . [%] laser heat build }
amarr med frame "Dakar" bonus: { . [%] bonus armor HP . [%] laser laser damage }
T2 amarr med frame "Paul" bonus: { . amarr med frame bonus: . { . . [%] laser PG/CPU cost . . [%] laser heat build . { [%] bonus laser damage [%] reload speed reduction }
T2 amarr med frame "Dakar" bonus: { . amarr med frame bonus: . { . . [%] bonus armor HP . . [%] swarm launcher damage . { [%] swarm launcher reload speed [%] swarm flight speed }
some of you may be saying I was following you until the "T2 Dakar bonus" WTF happened there? welcome to the cluster kitten that is T2 bonuses sometime they completely change the role of the frame. tiericide is interesting because it poses the question "do you want extra damage and tank? or the fitting and heat bonus? and while T2 "Paul" is basically a proto suit, T2 "Dakar" is a beastly AV frame. these questions and trades make it interesting to fight and adds another layer of complexity to fitting without making the fitting process harder to learn.
I think tiericide in suits(I haven't been sold on weapons or mods yet) is an extremely interesting Idea that would add needed depth and complexity to the game as well as making it more new player friendly. it should be implemented with the utmost haste.
authors notes:
- Paul and Dakar are names of variables I use in programming, they have no significance.
- Rarara add post formatting tools to the forums I need my tab key back
- if you were thinking, those bonuses look familiar
.....Paul = Omen .....Dakar = Mallar .....T2 "Paul" = Zealot .....T2 "dakar" = Sacrilege
- why did I pick Amarr? I fly Amarr in EvE and am familiar with the bonuses, also the Sacrilege demonstrates how drastically fittings can change between T1 and T2 really well.
this post took about 3 hours to research, plan out, organize, format, and type, so if you found it helpful I'd appreciate the "like". I don't pander for likes but I feel it's deserved here. thanks!
"God favors the side with the best artillery" ~ Napoleon
Ko6, scout, tanker.
CLOSED BETA VET
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deepfried salad gilliam
Sanguine Knights
380
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Posted - 2014.01.15 01:06:00 -
[47] - Quote
i am not a fan of tiericide i do believe that the bonuses should be in the suit not the skill and it shouldn't be 5 times the bonus at max lvl
the skill tree and suits need a large reworking but that's not the way to go
Proud Christian
one of the most essential parts of eve is left out of dust: freedom, exploration, open-world gameplay.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
12091
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Posted - 2014.01.15 02:55:00 -
[48] - Quote
knight of 6 wrote:great illustrations and they are immediately familiar to an eve player. if you added in bonuses I think it would better illustrate the effects of tiericide. a T2 (tech 2)(sorta like proto but not at all like proto) frame is simply more specialized than it's tech 1(standard) equivalent. an assault is probably the easiest thing to demonstrate this with. amarr med fame "Paul" bonus:{ . [%] laser PG/CPU cost . [%] laser heat build } amarr med frame "Dakar" bonus:{ . [%] bonus armor HP . [%] laser laser damage } T2 amarr med frame "Paul" bonus:{ . amarr med frame bonus: . { . . [%] laser PG/CPU cost . . [%] laser heat build . { [%] bonus laser damage [%] reload speed reduction } T2 amarr med frame "Dakar" bonus:{ . amarr med frame bonus: . { . . [%] bonus armor HP . . [%] swarm launcher damage . { [%] swarm launcher reload speed [%] swarm flight speed } some of you may be saying I was following you until the "T2 Dakar bonus" WTF happened there? welcome to the cluster kitten that is T2 bonuses sometime they completely change the role of the frame. tiericide is interesting because it poses the question "do you want extra damage and tank? or the fitting and heat bonus? and while T2 "Paul" is basically a proto suit, T2 "Dakar" is a beastly AV frame. these questions and trades make it interesting to fight and adds another layer of complexity to fitting without making the fitting process harder to learn. I think tiericide in suits(I haven't been sold on weapons or mods yet) is an extremely interesting Idea that would add needed depth and complexity to the game as well as making it more new player friendly. it should be implemented with the utmost haste. authors notes:
- Paul and Dakar are names of variables I use in programming, they have no significance.
- Rarara add post formatting tools to the forums I need my tab key back
- if you were thinking, those bonuses look familiar
.....Paul = Omen .....Dakar = Mallar .....T2 "Paul" = Zealot .....T2 "dakar" = Sacrilege
- why did I pick Amarr? I fly Amarr in EvE and am familiar with the bonuses, also the Sacrilege demonstrates how drastically fittings can change between T1 and T2 really well.
this post took about 3 hours to research, plan out, organize, format, and type, so if you found it helpful I'd appreciate the "like". I don't pander for likes but I feel it's deserved here. thanks!
Yup basically how I imagined bonuses to work to some degree as well under plan b model.
Plan A is to tailor tech 1 suits to being generalists and tech 2 specialists, plan b which I am somewhat trying to move away from as it factors into the 'power creep' would have tech 1 base bonuses and tech 2 building up on tech 1.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
817
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Posted - 2014.01.15 03:41:00 -
[49] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Since people can't read. Before TeiricideWith Captions After Teiricide (and yes I realized I need to find an image hosting service without annoying advertisements) Edit : Yes I noticed the link slot on the pre teiricide being a typo sorry; and no the slots are theorycrafting from flipping the minmatar suit over...) As you can see this gets rid of climbing up the tree overall but now breaks out into branching the tree out to more interesting branches. Militia -> Basic Tech 1 -> Advanced Tech 2 as you can notice is losing slots as it goes up but it trades it for additional specialized bonuses. Suits start off with meager fittings when you train their suit command to 1, but as you train up command skills for the specific suits that need it to operate you will be then getting more fitting, and more bonuses thus allows you to develop and specialize the suit further. Also under Teiricide 'type 2 and type 3s' return and are a part of the logical progression where type 2 and 3s are not better just different dice rolled for the same class. Tech 1s get tech 2 previews of the suits as you can notice one class is suited to being a pilot, one a scout, and one a spec ops by slot layouts alone. Milita (not shown) post teiricide has 'fixed bonuses' and does not gain anything per level and fitting overall is pretty low despite having the highest number of slots verses its tech 1 cousin. While powerful for a rookie at the start once the rookie starts investing into the skill of the amarr light around lvl 2 and 3 the tech 1 suits start to outperform the militia suit in terms of fitting then bonuses. Despite this none of the suits get obsoleted by skill training as the captioned pre teiricide cuts out clearly. A maxed out amarr light operator can still effectively use the tech 1 suits to a great advantage and would currently achieve the 'going cheaper' motif the current specialist advanced suits enjoy. While tech 2 is for going 'pro'. The only reason not to use a certain suit on any of these post teiricide trees is the simple fact its not your play style, some people like their sidearms some don't care to lose it for a second equipment slot. And yes the three tech 1 suits will have different models under the new teiricide when art allows for it. For those of you wondering this was taken from my Dust 2.0 project, part of the 'tech tree' while rather mostly incomplete you can see how things progress through the tech tree. I wont have time to answer everything though as 1 the tree is incomplete and two the answers are going to require another document the inventory which has full descriptors. This is mostly for my own self reference. References: Tech Tree (Work in Progress) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqHgiF-KXQZXdDdKYjRQT193VDlfbFM5b0FwdlB5Ymc&usp=drive_web#gid=3Dust 2.0 Project https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=126376
i like this idea... and just like eve, instead of getting better stuff as you lvl up the suits, you need to lvl up your skills,shields,armor, etc. to make the suit more effective, thus creating a more balanced game for most players.
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
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Cosgar
ParagonX
9095
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Posted - 2014.01.15 11:59:00 -
[50] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Vulpes Dolosus wrote:SoGǪ how will this apply to modules and weapons? Not as much, I feel the whole progress of modules is far more fitting for an FPS environment and honestly something ccp should have done at the start with eve. You will still have tech 1 base adv and proto then tech 2 modules (if any) with a smattering of officers, army, and pirate factions gear at top of the trees. As requested added references. Don't ask about stuff on the trees in here ask about it in the other thread. Making extenders and plates similar to vehicles would be a step in the right direction under this system. Large HP bonus, high CPU/PG cost so you can barely fit more than one complex plate or extender depending on your suit while making rechargers, regulators, reppers, and other modules cheaper to fit than they are now. That would deter hybrid tanking from being the only meta and after a few well placed buffs, make other modules more relevant.
I tried to put a level into Amarr Commando once, but got a server notification saying "Why?"
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Kierkegaard Soren
Forsaken Immortals Top Men.
111
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Posted - 2014.01.15 12:08:00 -
[51] - Quote
It just makes sense.
In all honestly though, what is the realistic probability that CCP will ever adopt this approach?
Dedicated Commando.
So it's a good job KDR doesn't bother me, really.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
12127
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Posted - 2014.01.15 15:22:00 -
[52] - Quote
Kierkegaard Soren wrote:It just makes sense.
In all honestly though, what is the realistic probability that CCP will ever adopt this approach?
Depends how much sense I can sell and how much support I can garner.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Adelia Lafayette
Science For Death
550
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Posted - 2014.01.15 16:22:00 -
[53] - Quote
Keep fighting the good fight IWS. I have been for this for a while. I hope to see it sooner than soonTM
Assault dropship gets blown up....
(Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ "Kitten this I'm out"...
..."I'm back"
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Spectral Clone
Dust2Dust. Top Men.
1036
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Posted - 2014.01.15 17:01:00 -
[54] - Quote
CCP should hire you IWS. **** yeah! You hit the nail on the head. CCP could just copypasta this into their item db and it would with high probability work better than what we have today.
I support tiericide.
Also. Adv/proto vehicles should not be implemented. Just variations of the basic ones and all racial configs as well as pirate factions, etc (similar to OP). |
Killar-12
The Corporate Raiders Top Men.
2015
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Posted - 2014.01.15 17:07:00 -
[55] - Quote
Signed and Supported.
A-Teams win Battles B-Teams win Campaigns C-Teams win Wars
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Cpt Merdock
The Exemplars Top Men.
174
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Posted - 2014.01.17 02:28:00 -
[56] - Quote
I could live with this, it make specialized roles more relevant to the game and may even kill that damn virus known as "Flavour of the Month" |
knight guard fury
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
820
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Posted - 2014.01.17 02:51:00 -
[57] - Quote
but we still need to keep our officer weapons though
Trust the rust In Rust We Trust Vhreokor Warrior
jack of all trades winmatar specialist master dual tanker
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
12170
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Posted - 2014.01.17 04:05:00 -
[58] - Quote
knight guard fury wrote:but we still need to keep our officer weapons though
Like I said weapons and modules are likely to be untouched in this teiricide modules they will be the drive behind specialization as you seek to make these highest end gear fit reliably without sacrificing too much.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
12614
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Posted - 2014.01.26 06:40:00 -
[59] - Quote
Cpt Merdock wrote:I could live with this, it make specialized roles more relevant to the game and may even kill that damn virus known as "Flavour of the Month"
There will still be a flavour of the month but it will be less pronounced and far far easier to balance out (instead of adjusting up to possibly 9 suits or more (vanity suits)
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Caldari Assault // Unlocked
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Fizzer94
L.O.T.I.S. D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1677
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Posted - 2014.01.26 07:38:00 -
[60] - Quote
Hmmm. I'm not sure about your suggested pricings. In EVE, you don't die nearly as much, and keeping a ship from exploding is fairly easy. In Dust... you die. A lot. What if someone wants to run a specialized suit like logistics (tech 2) all the time? Should they just never make profits? The ISK prices should be closer together for the different tech levels, and should all hover around the 10-15K ISK range.
Yours Truly,
Reginald Fizzer94 Delafontaine III, Esquire
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