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Why are Dust and EVE so different?

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BMSTUBBY KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 558	Posted - 2013.12.31 18:29:00 - [31] - Quote Operative 1171 Aajli wrote: EVE = adults on a computer. DUST = console kiddie crowd with their sucky little joysticks. Reason why DUST will fail until they take it away from the thumb jockeys. - Average age of a PS3 gamer is between 28-35. - Average age of a PC gamer is between 32-38 So yeah your ASSumption is wrong. Meh, F2P Lobby Shooter BattleDuty 514 Working as intended.
Valmorgan Aubaris Stellar and Orbital Strategic Services ACME Holding Conglomerate 100	Posted - 2013.12.31 18:29:00 - [32] - Quote Aizen Intiki wrote: Valmorgan Aubaris wrote: There are things EVE side I've been waiting years and years to see improve as well. - Walking in stations/ personal ownership and customisation of private spaces. - Lifeforms and ability to explore them. - Landing on planets. Ships are way too big to land on planets (other than like frigates and destroyers). Cruisers and battlecurisers could as well, as well as the many different industrials I would think. So, yeah 80% of EVE ships are sized appropriately to land on planets, maybe more. EVE alliance seeks mercs, join Stellar and Orbital Strategic Services today! Let's gank Scotty.
Surt gods end Demon Ronin 1449	Posted - 2013.12.31 18:35:00 - [33] - Quote The minute the FPS was left at the door. That's went it all down hill. It's target audience ignored. You don't call for a contractor if you can do the job yourself. A fun FPS game huh? recent words from ccp. That's not what it use to be tho. mmo/rpg/fps. And that's what started it. Build the foundation of a great FPS game. Then, and only then add the link to eve. So many would have stayed. but many didn't want FPS players here anyway. so how is putting dust on a rig going to get more players? The PC. Home of FPS. When FPS players have already ruled out dust? Many players cared nothing about eve is true. But They didn't have to, to do their jobs. They cared about building their name. of fame. of another arena for fights. everything anyone seeks in any fps game. They were the very point of what Dust advertised for... mercenaries. Eve players will go into a fps game knowing what it was and adapt to it, getting stronger in a new genre while at same time having eve counter parts.
Mitch Laurence The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 45	Posted - 2013.12.31 18:52:00 - [34] - Quote I think the focus was on making something F2P, as opposed to making something CCP. Lose touch with your roots and you fall over. "People will say we're in love." -Hannibal Lecter
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1413	Posted - 2013.12.31 18:59:00 - [35] - Quote Aikuchi Tomaru wrote: Ludvig Enraga wrote: EVE seems like a very competitive PVP MMO that got it right and have pretty good balance and accomodates a variety of playstyles. Dust has disasterous lopsided balance issues and broken metagame (e.g. locked districts). Like all ppl who invested time and/or money in this game I am vexed and disappointed by Dust. However, this is not a trolling thread. I am genuinely curious how the same company can make two games that are that dissimilar in quality especially a company with an apparently good track record of listening to the community. You're funny. Balance in Eve Online ******* sucks. Try going into PvP without having anybody to tell you how it works. You will get ripped to shreds, not even being able scratch your enemy before getting blown up. You have to work through thousands of items, manage to find out what is good and what is not. You need to know how enemy ships are equipped. You either need years of experience you would gain by getting blown up thousands of times or a very good teacher who tells you how things work. Also: It took Eve 10 years to get where it's now. Dust has not even been officially released for a month. +1 QFT(but DUST has been officially released since 5/14/13). And a significant chunk of end-game content is completely inaccessible to newish players. Don't get me wrong, i'm from old-school hardcore EVE and think today's version of EVE is catering a bit too much to the 'challenged' demographic. I love the remorseless brutality, it's why i play the game, but balanced it is not. Luvig Enraga's comparison of DUST with EVE is myopic and deeply flawed. The first point he omitted is the lobby match structure. The second/third points omitted are the hands-on skill a shooter requires and the fact that skill gaps between players are magnified by MMO skillpoint/gear differences. The third point omitted is that fundamental tools such as player market/contracts are not in game yet. He makes a comparison between a 10 year old game and a fundamentally different product still deep in beta(don't bother arguing, peeps). It's a completely pointless comparison. If we want to make a reasonable comparison, let's compare the community-facing interaction of the two development groups: the EVE team vs. the DUST team. Those who have experience with both communities have seen a huge disparity when looking at the feedback-response-feedback cycle between the two devteams and their respective communities. DUST is coming out on the losing side of this and the game is the poorer for it. Are there reasons for it? Of course. Is there a history here that bears on the situation? Of course. But these reasons and rationalizations do not change the user experience or the end result. Opinions do not matter much here, all reasoning should be evidence-based. The truest measure of disconnect with community is player retention rate, especially the new player retention rate. The CPM have told us that with the new EP things are changing at CCP Shanghai. Fingers crossed. I support SP rollover.
R F Gyro Clones 4u 891	Posted - 2013.12.31 19:27:00 - [36] - Quote Ludvig Enraga wrote: EVE seems like a very competitive PVP MMO that got it right and have pretty good balance and accomodates a variety of playstyles. Dust has disasterous lopsided balance issues and broken metagame (e.g. locked districts). Like all ppl who invested time and/or money in this game I am vexed and disappointed by Dust. However, this is not a trolling thread. I am genuinely curious how the same company can make two games that are that dissimilar in quality especially a company with an apparently good track record of listening to the community. CCP built a company in Iceland with a great culture and built Eve online. Their culture kept them going, building steadily, taking bold decisions, listening to their players and learning from their mistakes. Dust was built by CCP Shanghai, which was almost a separate company with a separate culture. I believe this was done to make development cheaper, but I suspect the result was a total shambles. Around the middle of 2013 CCP Iceland realised the trouble they were in and started working to fix it, but it is a hard slog and it is taking time for us to see the results. They'll get there. RF Gyro: 12.5% damage bonus; 10.5% rate of fire bonus
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 6184	Posted - 2013.12.31 19:33:00 - [37] - Quote Aizen Intiki wrote: Valmorgan Aubaris wrote: There are things EVE side I've been waiting years and years to see improve as well. - Walking in stations/ personal ownership and customisation of private spaces. - Lifeforms and ability to explore them. - Landing on planets. Ships are way too big to land on planets (other than like frigates and destroyers). Technically Eve ships are not able to safely fly within the atmosphere of a planet. The core material used in the Eve ship production is Tritanium which is highly unstable when it comes into contact with the atmosphere. Ships will explode like crazy. OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved? *CLOSED BETA VETERAN SINCE REPLICATION BUILD*
Tallen Ellecon KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1157	Posted - 2013.12.31 19:37:00 - [38] - Quote If you guys don't think this game is making money, think again. Tarn chose peace. Tallen chose war. Where is my Gallente sidearm? SoonGäó514
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 617	Posted - 2013.12.31 19:43:00 - [39] - Quote It's simple and i was just talking with IWS about it in another thread and he says it. EVE went after the hardcore MMORPG player first, not the WoW player. then built avenues for the casual gamer without alienating their hardcore player base. DUST is adding fundamental changes to the core of the game like active aim assist to get the casual BF4 and CoD player. And has actively alienating their hardcore FPS player base it was comprised of. different strokes for different folks.
R F Gyro Clones 4u 893	Posted - 2013.12.31 19:50:00 - [40] - Quote Tallen Ellecon wrote: If you guys don't think this game is making money, think again. Care to come up with a justification for that? Here's my best guess... peak concurrent users (4K ?) peak to total active users multiplier (10x ?) proportion of players spending real money on Dust (5% ?) average spend in $ per month for a player who spends real money on Dust ($15 ?) = 4000 * 10 * 0.05 & 15 = $30,000 income per month CCP employees working on Dust (20 ?) Average salary in $ per month ($5K ?) = 20 * 5000 = $100,000 salary expenses per month That's a $70K loss per month, or over $800K per year. Sounds a lot, but it only takes 5,000 Eve subscribers to cover it. RF Gyro: 12.5% damage bonus; 10.5% rate of fire bonus

Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 617	Posted - 2013.12.31 20:00:00 - [41] - Quote R F Gyro wrote: Tallen Ellecon wrote: If you guys don't think this game is making money, think again. Care to come up with a justification for that? Here's my best guess... peak concurrent users (4K ?) peak to total active users multiplier (10x ?) proportion of players spending real money on Dust (5% ?) average spend in $ per month for a player who spends real money on Dust ($15 ?) = 4000 * 10 * 0.05 & 15 = $30,000 income per month CCP employees working on Dust (20 ?) Average salary in $ per month ($5K ?) = 20 * 5000 = $100,000 salary expenses per month That's a $70K loss per month, or over $800K per year. Sounds a lot, but it only takes 5,000 Eve subscribers to cover it. Id imagine server costs are probably one of the most expensive factors... salaries being meh.
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1416	Posted - 2013.12.31 21:03:00 - [42] - Quote Bethhy wrote: It's simple and i was just talking with IWS about it in another thread and he says it. EVE went after the hardcore MMORPG player first, not the WoW player. then built avenues for the casual gamer without alienating their hardcore player base. DUST is adding fundamental changes to the core of the game like active aim assist to get the casual BF4 and CoD player. And has actively alienating their hardcore FPS player base it was comprised of. different strokes for different folks. That may be true, we'll have to wait and see. But CCP has said in the past that they want DUST to be more hardcore that the mass-market shooters. What form that takes is another story, however. What does hardcore mean? In an economic simulator sense, it could mean gear loss/isk efficiency for individual mercs or corps. It could also mean resource-based manufacturing and free market for virtually all in-game items. In a Massive Multiplayer sense, it could mean a full and robust suite of communication & organization tools to allow logistically complex operations of large groups of EVE/DUST individuals and organizations. I could also mean strategically vital shared/complementary resources. In a FPS sense, it mean fidelity of controls and primacy of personal player skill, tactics, strategy. There's really no way around this, hardcore FPS cannot be faked. CCP could afford to close the skill gap to some small extent, but not by much. That's a very incomplete list, it's really just meant as a question to CCP: in what sense is DUST meant to reflect New Eden? My personal opinion is that the game is undergoing an identity crisis atm. My personal opinion and intuition is that DUST's credibility rests solely on its FPS fundamentals. These need to be tight, predictable and flawless - there must be nothing standing between the player's skill and the game. CCP is asking a lot of and promising a lot to new players who come into the game. They are effectively and implicitly creating a contract with new immigrants to New Eden. CCP is saying 'This game is different. This game is harsh, this is New Eden. But it is worth investing in, it is worth the grind and the losses and the stomping.' And that's fine and when we have our content someday it may even be true. But implicit in that promise and central to it's credibility is a commitment from CCP that the player's actions, ability, and decisions matter, because that is the the very definition of hardcore, of 'harsh universe'. The real cost of gap-closing AA or poor raw mechanics is that such measures reveal the deception in the initial promise. After a few days or even hours with the game the seed of doubt is sown, and it swiftly blooms into disappointment and then rejection when peeps realize they have been marketed to and that the core mechanics of the game do not support the hype. I point this out not to bash on CCP, but to make a case for the importance of fidelity in core mechanics, and to suggest that closing the skill gap with measures like aim assist will cost CCP far more than they hope to gain. I support SP rollover.
R F Gyro Clones 4u 893	Posted - 2013.12.31 21:15:00 - [43] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Id imagine server costs are probably one of the most expensive factors... salaries being meh. Really? 4K PCU, of which maybe 1/2 are in battle at any one time, that's 2K. Maybe 100 simultaneous battles? One server core per battle, 8 cores per server is 12 servers. Make that 20 to cover peak load shifting around the world. 5K per server, so 100K for the servers. Give them a 2 year life (call it 20 months), so that's 5K per month for the servers. OK, maybe I'm being wildly overoptimistic, but even if we treble it, it is still a small fraction of their salary bill. RF Gyro: 12.5% damage bonus; 10.5% rate of fire bonus
Akdhar Saif Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative 124	Posted - 2013.12.31 22:14:00 - [44] - Quote Ludvig Enraga wrote: EVE seems like a very competitive PVP MMO that got it right and have pretty good balance and accomodates a variety of playstyles. Dust has disasterous lopsided balance issues and broken metagame (e.g. locked districts). Like all ppl who invested time and/or money in this game I am vexed and disappointed by Dust. However, this is not a trolling thread. I am genuinely curious how the same company can make two games that are that dissimilar in quality especially a company with an apparently good track record of listening to the community. EVE was released 10 years ago....
Darius Ashran Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 35	Posted - 2013.12.31 22:37:00 - [45] - Quote Ludvig Enraga wrote: I am genuinely curious how the same company can make two games that are that dissimilar in quality . Unfortunately, the reason for this stark contrast in quality is very clear if you have been able to talk to the right people. So, if you want an answer. I can give you one for certain. Read on sir. The stumbling starts Starting around 2011, CCP had a not so minor snafu with outside investors demanding certain changes to see quicker returns. The results of this were the attempted monetization of the Incarna expansion by adding in the Nex shop and aurum. Without getting into the not so minor story about the PR problems related to that and some comments/internal notes related on the eve end that got publicized, this also resulted in further delays to an already behind schedule project that was Dust 514. (And no, don't believe the bullshit about protests ending it in eve. It was a pointed demonstration but it had a minor effect.) Later that year, CCP Iceland the main development office for EVE Online let go a good number of personnel and did a major internal restructure. Realizing they had in some ways very much created their own issues and problems, they sought to resolve the issues and IMO as a company did an amazing job. And it resulted in several very well received and excellent content updates over the following 2 years. To help bring together this information relevance, this resulted in CCP having a much more efficient use of development resources, better interdepartmental communications, less bugs, better content role out, and conceptualization before release. Stay with me, gents. This is where you start to care. In 2012 CCP finally announced and publicized DUST 514 to the community and a bit in the gaming press, as well. Mostly it was low key as far as general advertisement campaigns and IP awareness went. The big news, however, was that on May 2012 CCP was going to be opening the close beta for Dust 514. For those around (myself included), this was great news. And we, in alot of ways, got some of what we expected at first. A lol buggy as sin shooter that gave us that warm fuzzy feeling we get when we played EVE Online ( initially a lot of the earlier testers where EVE players). And at the time what we assumed these where classic CCP dev problems, over ambitious execution, not enough testing, and sprinkle some amazing concepts in. And that's pretty standard fair for CCP. But, as time went on into the Closed beta, we started to see a troubling... hell more like outright schizophrenic approach to development. Community communication was very poor. And malcontent started to set in among players, but was mostly kept in check by the " O_o Shiny!" Factor. Shift Now to CCP Shanghai. This gentlemen is the primary office that focuses on Dust 514s Development. It is not the same developers that have been making EVE Online. In point of fact, most of the team was new hire iirc. This may not be clear to some of you as to why this is such a big deal. Some might say " bah same company its same thing" not so. The internal communications issues between CCP Iceland and CCP shanghai, And perhaps more importantly the horrible mismanagement/ incompetent management of the developments teams and virtually no interdepartmental communication results in the, and forgive my bluntness, outright cluster **, that was closed beta development and the open beta/ PC launch. You had to be around to really appreciate how rough the development process was. It had its moments and it was fun sure. But from a development standpoint, you would think we had an executive producer with 11 personality playing with the controls after every major update. Radical changes that made virtually no sense at all, resulting in more work for the development teams to counter their mistakes. In some cases, having to backtrack release implementation of content entirely. Like proto tanks,Black ops tanks( invisible to radar). and lets not forget the early multi stage game modes. Some of this, to be fair, was related to some serious technical issues at CCPs end both inside and outside of the engine itself.( Like the horrible hit detection Q_Q) Most of it however was related to the problems in Shanghai. CCP at this time (roughly around the middle of 2013) decided that serious changes had to be made if Dust514 were to be kept away from tanking outright. So, the salvage efforts began in haste. The Shanghai officer got several new personnel and had many teams restructured and instructed on new interdepartmental communication expectations and the management was restructured with a a few firings and some new hiring. Enter the current " cycle"** Fast forward several months in 2013 from the launch of PC. It's around fall now. And CCP has brought in former EA Executive producer Jean-Charles Gaudechon, to be the new executive producer for Dust 514 at the CCP shanghai office. Around this same time, CCP also announced to the community they would start implementing the content update system as we now know it to be, with more frequent but smaller updates. They have also stepped up the dev/community communication, though many would argue it's still not enough.(True IMO) To bring this all home and give your your answer, good sir . Dust 514 has had a rough time and only recently has it been under proper management. It is not the traditional CCP staff that made EVE Online. But, they are improving and learning. Despite negativity and fatalistic appointments of doom, the game is only just now 7 months old. And, in that time, they have made some very positive, if incremental, progress. With some patience and some luck we will see the product we want. But it will take time to fully realize such an ambitious project, hopefully not as much as EVE did. Hope this helps
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1416	Posted - 2013.12.31 22:45:00 - [46] - Quote +1 Darius. Great synopsis. I support SP rollover.
Sgt Kirk Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 3915	Posted - 2013.12.31 22:55:00 - [47] - Quote Valmorgan Aubaris wrote: There are things EVE side I've been waiting years and years to see improve as well. - Landing on planets. If my lore is right the ships in EVE are made out of a material that does not allow them to come into contact with element(s) found in the atmosphere of habitable planets.
Surt gods end Demon Ronin 1449	Posted - 2013.12.31 23:02:00 - [48] - Quote Darius nailed the long version. But short version is that CCP china. CCP iceland. FPS is new for them. Identity crises indeed dust514 suffered in the early stages. EVE players were in first. when the FPS players came to see what this closed FPS beta game was about, that's when things got ugly. Almost every suggestion that any fps player made back then was meant with a "THIS IS NOT COD" "THIS IS NOT A FPS!!" Not even kidding. "not a fps.." The ones that poured a lot and tho hated or liked tried to help shape dust514 into a great FPS game was muted. till they had enough and left.
Darius Ashran Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 42	Posted - 2013.12.31 23:16:00 - [49] - Quote Surt gods end wrote: Darius nailed the long version. But short version is that CCP china. CCP iceland. FPS is new for them. Identity crises indeed dust514 suffered in the early stages. EVE players were in first. when the FPS players came to see what this closed FPS beta game was about, that's when things got ugly. Almost every suggestion that any fps player made back then was meant with a "THIS IS NOT COD" "THIS IS NOT A FPS!!" Not even kidding. "not a fps.." The ones that poured a lot and tho hated or liked tried to help shape dust514 into a great FPS game was muted. till they had enough and left. To give credit where its due. A lot of the people yelling that where into fan-boy mode pretty hard. And it was bullshit and highly nonconstructive overall. However, man of the early adopting " Shooter verterans" mostly acted as asshats themselves. Many did, in point of fact, want almost exact parallels to COD and BF series. Not all no. But many. So up to a point it was justified criticism. It just got misused and then constantly overused as a trope of the fan-boys for any negative comments.
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1416	Posted - 2013.12.31 23:41:00 - [50] - Quote Darius Ashran wrote: Surt gods end wrote: Darius nailed the long version. But short version is that CCP china. CCP iceland. FPS is new for them. Identity crises indeed dust514 suffered in the early stages. EVE players were in first. when the FPS players came to see what this closed FPS beta game was about, that's when things got ugly. Almost every suggestion that any fps player made back then was meant with a "THIS IS NOT COD" "THIS IS NOT A FPS!!" Not even kidding. "not a fps.." The ones that poured a lot and tho hated or liked tried to help shape dust514 into a great FPS game was muted. till they had enough and left. To give credit where its due. A lot of the people yelling that where into fan-boy mode pretty hard. And it was bullshit and highly nonconstructive overall. However, many of the early adopting " Shooter veterans" mostly acted as asshats themselves. Many did, in point of fact, want almost exact parallels to COD and BF series. Not all no. But many. So up to a point it was justified criticism. It just got misused and then constantly overused as a trope of the fan-boys for any negative comments. Every poster on these forums with any sense at all, from EVE or pure console FPSs, was on CCP from the very beginning about the paramount importance of core FPS mechanics. And a few months ago we were all sick to death of harping 'core mechanics, core mechanics' and the community kinda relaxed it's tone and gave CCP a soft go-ahead for content. I'm as guilty as everybody else, but that was a mistake. Because to state the obvious yet again, said so many time before by so many others, content built on rotten foundations will guaran-f'in-teed turn to kittenpoop every time. That rule has been true forever and it is not going to change for CCP. There's only one way out of this godawful mess and it's right up the frakin' middle. I support SP rollover.

Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 644	Posted - 2014.01.01 02:59:00 - [51] - Quote Well done, Darius. +1 Best capsule version I've seen not rocky early history of Dust. I am cautiously optimistic that CCP has got the ship pointed in the right direction now. Time will tell.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 6195	Posted - 2014.01.01 04:01:00 - [52] - Quote Damn Darius. You nailed it. OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved? *CLOSED BETA VETERAN SINCE REPLICATION BUILD*
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 6195	Posted - 2014.01.01 04:03:00 - [53] - Quote I feel that the first mistake we did as a community was not push CCP hard enough to make sure interdepartmental communication in the Shanghai office was solid and constant like they have in Iceland. OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved? *CLOSED BETA VETERAN SINCE REPLICATION BUILD*
Darius Ashran Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 49	Posted - 2014.01.01 04:52:00 - [54] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Darius Ashran wrote: Surt gods end wrote: Darius nailed the long version. But short version is that CCP china. CCP iceland. FPS is new for them. Identity crises indeed dust514 suffered in the early stages. EVE players were in first. when the FPS players came to see what this closed FPS beta game was about, that's when things got ugly. Almost every suggestion that any fps player made back then was meant with a "THIS IS NOT COD" "THIS IS NOT A FPS!!" Not even kidding. "not a fps.." The ones that poured a lot and tho hated or liked tried to help shape dust514 into a great FPS game was muted. till they had enough and left. To give credit where its due. A lot of the people yelling that where into fan-boy mode pretty hard. And it was bullshit and highly nonconstructive overall. However, many of the early adopting " Shooter veterans" mostly acted as asshats themselves. Many did, in point of fact, want almost exact parallels to COD and BF series. Not all no. But many. So up to a point it was justified criticism. It just got misused and then constantly overused as a trope of the fan-boys for any negative comments. Every poster on these forums with any sense at all, from EVE or pure console FPSs, was on CCP from the very beginning about the paramount importance of core FPS mechanics. And a few months ago we were all sick to death of harping 'core mechanics, core mechanics' and the community kinda relaxed it's tone and gave CCP a soft go-ahead for content. I'm as guilty as everybody else, but that was a mistake. Because to state the obvious yet again, said so many times before by so many others, content built on rotten foundations is guaran-f'in-teed turn to kittenpoop every time. That rule has been true forever and it is not going to change for CCP. There's only one way out of this godawful mess and it's right up the frakin' middle. That issue inst in dispute from me, I agree 100% the original shooter mechanic where pretty awful. Not to mention the hit detection was just horrible. Unplayable sometimes even. However, the current implementation is a big improvement over that even with its problems. I could honestly do without the heavy handed aim assist though. I mean few games use pure raw input I know that. I think everyone does. But the aim assist they have now is just so.... lacking in subtlety is the best way I can think to phrase it. It overcompensates. Its far easier to run without it in general.
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 769	Posted - 2014.01.01 05:07:00 - [55] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: Says not trolling thread...posts under alt after stating to leave forums and Dust for good. You got me! Who are you again? Oh, sht! I just learned you can make a signature! Thanks, CCP! Forums are getting better!
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 769	Posted - 2014.01.01 05:09:00 - [56] - Quote Valmorgan Aubaris wrote: There are things EVE side I've been waiting years and years to see improve as well. - Walking in stations/ personal ownership and customisation of private spaces. - Lifeforms and ability to explore them. - Landing on planets. We are not talking about things we personally want. My thread specifically says that EVE is a successful game with good PVP balance. Dust has terrible balance as a primary cause for its failure. Oh, sht! I just learned you can make a signature! Thanks, CCP! Forums are getting better!
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 769	Posted - 2014.01.01 05:10:00 - [57] - Quote Callidus Vanus wrote: When eve first came out it was completely bashed by almost every reviewer who played it, it had major bugs and balance issues and many people thought it was a wast of time. Sound familiar? I guess. I hope you are right. Genuinely. Oh, sht! I just learned you can make a signature! Thanks, CCP! Forums are getting better!
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 769	Posted - 2014.01.01 05:20:00 - [58] - Quote Lady MDK wrote: Ludvig Enraga wrote: EVE seems like a very competitive PVP MMO that got it right and have pretty good balance and accomodates a variety of playstyles. Dust has disasterous lopsided balance issues and broken metagame (e.g. locked districts). Is it broken because not all of the content is added yet i.e. will tanks be more balanced when all us who started training non Amar suits get a heavy and proper heavy AV gun train into heavies - will we see more heavies take to the field? Not a troll only question The thing I've read about with on here about the locked districts seems similar to me putting a pos up then re-enforcing it myself so I cant be attacked? admittedly it probably wouldn't make me any money if I did this, do districts make money? (I don't play FW) should they be stopped from making money if contested? Ludvig Enraga wrote: Like all ppl who invested time and/or money in this game I am vexed and disappointed by Dust. However, this is not a trolling thread. I am genuinely curious how the same company can make two games that are that dissimilar in quality especially a company with an apparently good track record of listening to the community. Different team, Different Producer (essentially project manager, we are onto our second now in as many years?) I would guess that its been a rough ride so far for them. To be honest despite the Av Nerf (I cant still take out jeeps with a swarm or 2), the rise of the tanks and the fall? of the AR (I still use one on the char I play on - the TAC believe it or not as it suits my playstyle). Despite all the negative forum posts there is still a lot about DUST that I enjoy. Hopefully CCP can capitalise on this and the negatives will be reduced. They do however seem to introduce things that seem cool rather than things that are balanced and I mean this historically as well not just in dust. Take the EVE titan - when it was first introduced here was a ship that could wipe out every ship on grid with it in one blast of its AOE weapon. And if that wasn't bad enough it could wipe out every ship on grid just by being in the same system as them? It took years for someone to listen to what they were being told - this wasn't such a cool feature after all but there was enough game to keep people hanging in there. Personally I would say sometimes they listen too much to some things and not enough to others hence the knee jerk buffs that seem to occur. Possibly a side effect of all the forum whinging about this and that. Thank you for the very long and thoughtful post. I mean it. I think basically what you and others have pointed out is that the way DUST is is just CCP's way of doing business since EVE was just like this years ago. I find this problematic because things that MMO crowd would stand for (i.e. bad PVP balance when there are other things in the game to keep them occupied) will never be accepted by FPS players - I am afraid this game will keep bleeding base, free or not. Oh, sht! I just learned you can make a signature! Thanks, CCP! Forums are getting better!
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 769	Posted - 2014.01.01 05:25:00 - [59] - Quote Aikuchi Tomaru wrote: Ludvig Enraga wrote: EVE seems like a very competitive PVP MMO that got it right and have pretty good balance and accomodates a variety of playstyles. Dust has disasterous lopsided balance issues and broken metagame (e.g. locked districts). Like all ppl who invested time and/or money in this game I am vexed and disappointed by Dust. However, this is not a trolling thread. I am genuinely curious how the same company can make two games that are that dissimilar in quality especially a company with an apparently good track record of listening to the community. You're funny. Balance in Eve Online ******* sucks. Try going into PvP without having anybody to tell you how it works. You will get ripped to shreds, not even being able scratch your enemy before getting blown up. You have to work through thousands of items, manage to find out what is good and what is not. You need to know how enemy ships are equipped. You either need years of experience you would gain by getting blown up thousands of times or a very good teacher who tells you how things work. Also: It took Eve 10 years to get where it's now. Dust has not even been officially released for a year. So basically you are saying that EVE has a deep and intricate PVP system affoding various in depth play styles that take mastery, i.e. having someone teach you a technique that works. In Dust it's simple as 5 not mutually exclusive things that everyone learns in first few hours of playing the game: tanks, callogi, Automatic rifle, nades, damage mods. I fail to see your point. Oh, sht! I just learned you can make a signature! Thanks, CCP! Forums are getting better!
Ludvig Enraga KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 769	Posted - 2014.01.01 05:48:00 - [60] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Aikuchi Tomaru wrote: Ludvig Enraga wrote: EVE seems like a very competitive PVP MMO that got it right and have pretty good balance and accomodates a variety of playstyles. Dust has disasterous lopsided balance issues and broken metagame (e.g. locked districts). Like all ppl who invested time and/or money in this game I am vexed and disappointed by Dust. However, this is not a trolling thread. I am genuinely curious how the same company can make two games that are that dissimilar in quality especially a company with an apparently good track record of listening to the community. You're funny. Balance in Eve Online ******* sucks. Try going into PvP without having anybody to tell you how it works. You will get ripped to shreds, not even being able scratch your enemy before getting blown up. You have to work through thousands of items, manage to find out what is good and what is not. You need to know how enemy ships are equipped. You either need years of experience you would gain by getting blown up thousands of times or a very good teacher who tells you how things work. Also: It took Eve 10 years to get where it's now. Dust has not even been officially released for a month. +1 QFT(but DUST has been officially released since 5/14/13). And a significant chunk of end-game content is completely inaccessible to newish players. Don't get me wrong, i'm from old-school hardcore EVE and think today's version of EVE is catering a bit too much to the 'challenged' demographic. I love the remorseless brutality, it's why i play the game, but balanced it is not. Luvig Enraga's comparison of DUST with EVE is myopic and deeply flawed. The first point he omitted is the lobby match structure. The second/third points omitted are the hands-on skill a shooter requires and the fact that skill gaps between players are magnified by MMO skillpoint/gear differences. The third point omitted is that fundamental tools such as player market/contracts are not in game yet. He makes a comparison between a 10 year old game and a fundamentally different product still deep in beta(don't bother arguing, peeps). It's a completely pointless comparison. If we want to make a reasonable comparison, let's compare the community-facing interaction of the two development groups: the EVE team vs. the DUST team. Those who have experience with both communities have seen a huge disparity when looking at the feedback-response-feedback cycle between the two devteams and their respective communities. DUST is coming out on the losing side of this and the game is the poorer for it. Are there reasons for it? Of course. Is there a history here that bears on the situation? Of course. But these reasons and rationalizations do not change the user experience or the end result. Opinions do not matter much here, all reasoning should be evidence-based. The truest measure of disconnect with community is player retention rate, especially the new player retention rate. The CPM have told us that with the new EP things are changing at CCP Shanghai. Fingers crossed. I am not sure we are on the same page. I simply stated that DUST is terribly lacking by console FPS standards of a game that has been out for 2 years (more or less) and this contrasted to EVE that managed to survive and thrive a decade. All I am saying CCP is failing in DUST and succeded with EVE. There is a disconnect there. Moreover, what I read over and over again in this thread is EVE veterans repeating the same thing a la: "I've been with EVE since the very beginning and it was a total garbage of a game for many, many years and yet I've stuck with it for many years before it finally got half-way decent" This is a staggering oxymoron to me: why did so many of you waste years and years on MMO that was terrible while paying money for it? Just because you hoped that maybe some day it would be decent? I don't think this patient and hopeful mentality will work on consoles. All of this a very curious phenomenon. I appreciate the insight of ppl who have played EVE, especially since early on and offered their comments. Oh, sht! I just learned you can make a signature! Thanks, CCP! Forums are getting better!



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