DUST Search - Why are Dust and EVE so different?

Aikuchi Tomaru wrote:

Ludvig Enraga wrote:

EVE seems like a very competitive PVP MMO that got it right and have pretty good balance and accomodates a variety of playstyles.

Dust has disasterous lopsided balance issues and broken metagame (e.g. locked districts).

Like all ppl who invested time and/or money in this game I am vexed and disappointed by Dust. However, this is not a trolling thread. I am genuinely curious how the same company can make two games that are that dissimilar in quality especially a company with an apparently good track record of listening to the community.

You're funny. Balance in Eve Online ******* sucks. Try going into PvP without having anybody to tell you how it works. You will get ripped to shreds, not even being able scratch your enemy before getting blown up. You have to work through thousands of items, manage to find out what is good and what is not. You need to know how enemy ships are equipped. You either need years of experience you would gain by getting blown up thousands of times or a very good teacher who tells you how things work.

Also: It took Eve 10 years to get where it's now. Dust has not even been officially released for a month.


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Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1413	Posted - 2013.12.31 18:59:00 - [1] - Quote Aikuchi Tomaru wrote: Ludvig Enraga wrote: EVE seems like a very competitive PVP MMO that got it right and have pretty good balance and accomodates a variety of playstyles. Dust has disasterous lopsided balance issues and broken metagame (e.g. locked districts). Like all ppl who invested time and/or money in this game I am vexed and disappointed by Dust. However, this is not a trolling thread. I am genuinely curious how the same company can make two games that are that dissimilar in quality especially a company with an apparently good track record of listening to the community. You're funny. Balance in Eve Online ******* sucks. Try going into PvP without having anybody to tell you how it works. You will get ripped to shreds, not even being able scratch your enemy before getting blown up. You have to work through thousands of items, manage to find out what is good and what is not. You need to know how enemy ships are equipped. You either need years of experience you would gain by getting blown up thousands of times or a very good teacher who tells you how things work. Also: It took Eve 10 years to get where it's now. Dust has not even been officially released for a month. +1 QFT(but DUST has been officially released since 5/14/13). And a significant chunk of end-game content is completely inaccessible to newish players. Don't get me wrong, i'm from old-school hardcore EVE and think today's version of EVE is catering a bit too much to the 'challenged' demographic. I love the remorseless brutality, it's why i play the game, but balanced it is not. Luvig Enraga's comparison of DUST with EVE is myopic and deeply flawed. The first point he omitted is the lobby match structure. The second/third points omitted are the hands-on skill a shooter requires and the fact that skill gaps between players are magnified by MMO skillpoint/gear differences. The third point omitted is that fundamental tools such as player market/contracts are not in game yet. He makes a comparison between a 10 year old game and a fundamentally different product still deep in beta(don't bother arguing, peeps). It's a completely pointless comparison. If we want to make a reasonable comparison, let's compare the community-facing interaction of the two development groups: the EVE team vs. the DUST team. Those who have experience with both communities have seen a huge disparity when looking at the feedback-response-feedback cycle between the two devteams and their respective communities. DUST is coming out on the losing side of this and the game is the poorer for it. Are there reasons for it? Of course. Is there a history here that bears on the situation? Of course. But these reasons and rationalizations do not change the user experience or the end result. Opinions do not matter much here, all reasoning should be evidence-based. The truest measure of disconnect with community is player retention rate, especially the new player retention rate. The CPM have told us that with the new EP things are changing at CCP Shanghai. Fingers crossed. I support SP rollover.
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1416	Posted - 2013.12.31 21:03:00 - [2] - Quote Bethhy wrote: It's simple and i was just talking with IWS about it in another thread and he says it. EVE went after the hardcore MMORPG player first, not the WoW player. then built avenues for the casual gamer without alienating their hardcore player base. DUST is adding fundamental changes to the core of the game like active aim assist to get the casual BF4 and CoD player. And has actively alienating their hardcore FPS player base it was comprised of. different strokes for different folks. That may be true, we'll have to wait and see. But CCP has said in the past that they want DUST to be more hardcore that the mass-market shooters. What form that takes is another story, however. What does hardcore mean? In an economic simulator sense, it could mean gear loss/isk efficiency for individual mercs or corps. It could also mean resource-based manufacturing and free market for virtually all in-game items. In a Massive Multiplayer sense, it could mean a full and robust suite of communication & organization tools to allow logistically complex operations of large groups of EVE/DUST individuals and organizations. I could also mean strategically vital shared/complementary resources. In a FPS sense, it mean fidelity of controls and primacy of personal player skill, tactics, strategy. There's really no way around this, hardcore FPS cannot be faked. CCP could afford to close the skill gap to some small extent, but not by much. That's a very incomplete list, it's really just meant as a question to CCP: in what sense is DUST meant to reflect New Eden? My personal opinion is that the game is undergoing an identity crisis atm. My personal opinion and intuition is that DUST's credibility rests solely on its FPS fundamentals. These need to be tight, predictable and flawless - there must be nothing standing between the player's skill and the game. CCP is asking a lot of and promising a lot to new players who come into the game. They are effectively and implicitly creating a contract with new immigrants to New Eden. CCP is saying 'This game is different. This game is harsh, this is New Eden. But it is worth investing in, it is worth the grind and the losses and the stomping.' And that's fine and when we have our content someday it may even be true. But implicit in that promise and central to it's credibility is a commitment from CCP that the player's actions, ability, and decisions matter, because that is the the very definition of hardcore, of 'harsh universe'. The real cost of gap-closing AA or poor raw mechanics is that such measures reveal the deception in the initial promise. After a few days or even hours with the game the seed of doubt is sown, and it swiftly blooms into disappointment and then rejection when peeps realize they have been marketed to and that the core mechanics of the game do not support the hype. I point this out not to bash on CCP, but to make a case for the importance of fidelity in core mechanics, and to suggest that closing the skill gap with measures like aim assist will cost CCP far more than they hope to gain. I support SP rollover.
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1416	Posted - 2013.12.31 22:45:00 - [3] - Quote +1 Darius. Great synopsis. I support SP rollover.
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Public Disorder. 1416	Posted - 2013.12.31 23:41:00 - [4] - Quote Darius Ashran wrote: Surt gods end wrote: Darius nailed the long version. But short version is that CCP china. CCP iceland. FPS is new for them. Identity crises indeed dust514 suffered in the early stages. EVE players were in first. when the FPS players came to see what this closed FPS beta game was about, that's when things got ugly. Almost every suggestion that any fps player made back then was meant with a "THIS IS NOT COD" "THIS IS NOT A FPS!!" Not even kidding. "not a fps.." The ones that poured a lot and tho hated or liked tried to help shape dust514 into a great FPS game was muted. till they had enough and left. To give credit where its due. A lot of the people yelling that where into fan-boy mode pretty hard. And it was bullshit and highly nonconstructive overall. However, many of the early adopting " Shooter veterans" mostly acted as asshats themselves. Many did, in point of fact, want almost exact parallels to COD and BF series. Not all no. But many. So up to a point it was justified criticism. It just got misused and then constantly overused as a trope of the fan-boys for any negative comments. Every poster on these forums with any sense at all, from EVE or pure console FPSs, was on CCP from the very beginning about the paramount importance of core FPS mechanics. And a few months ago we were all sick to death of harping 'core mechanics, core mechanics' and the community kinda relaxed it's tone and gave CCP a soft go-ahead for content. I'm as guilty as everybody else, but that was a mistake. Because to state the obvious yet again, said so many time before by so many others, content built on rotten foundations will guaran-f'in-teed turn to kittenpoop every time. That rule has been true forever and it is not going to change for CCP. There's only one way out of this godawful mess and it's right up the frakin' middle. I support SP rollover.