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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11399
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Posted - 2013.12.25 12:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
On the grounds of no new content I purpose these changes.
1. Active Scanners will rely on suit or vehicle own natural sensors to find targets. Better the sensors the better it can find things. Lights having the best while heavies the worst. Vehicles are in a similar position with LAVs having the best with HAVs having the worst. Both strength and Range are accounted for.
1a. Fitting Suit Range Amplifiers and Suit Sensor Resolution Modules will enhance active scanner functions.
2. Active scanning player or vehicle will be revealed to the entire hostile team at 2x the range than he can detect at as though he himself had been scanned.
3. Active scanners drop in strength over distance, it is possible to create variants that have sweet spots (long range but nearsighted) or work around this concept.
4. Active scanners activate instantly instead of scanning for 5 seconds. This will prevent 360 scans.
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Spectral Clone
Dust2Dust.
Top Men.
983
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Posted - 2013.12.25 12:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
Good ideas IWS!
One thing I would like to add to your list is that a scan goes on while you press the button, and when you release the button (or the scanner-¦s capacitor depletes) it should stop scanning and start recharging the capacitor. The scanners scan duration would be how long you can scan for, before the capacitor depletes.
I.E. You need to hold down the button to get scan results, you cannot just scan and switch to a weapon, that is a totally unrealistic and broken mechanic.
This change would make scanners a logi tool, and more tactical.
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fragmentedhackslash
FREE AGENTS LP
27
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Posted - 2013.12.25 13:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
Feedback:
A. We need to be able to turn at least 160 degrees. Preforably 360. The reason for this is only those that are away from the fight will scan. Anyone scanning will be hunted down due to visability? That makes it even worse.
B. We need 'hard lock' scan results to be residual. With variations of 5 to 15 seconds. This is essential.
C. Precision enhancement and Range amplification skill tree and modules should affect scan equipment.
D. Suit scan resolution should affect scan equipment.
E. Cloaking will be a major counter to this, it should NOT be. Cloaking vs scanning should be equal, using higher meta level modules / equipment should only enhance the operation of cloaking modules and scanning equipment, not be unbalanced.
F. During the process of adjusting range amplificaton and precision, adjust how the passive skill, fittable modules and suit scan resolution and range amplification affect sniper target acquisition, allows Dropsuit electronics skill tree to be skilled into by others aswell. Also allows 'over the horizon' pro snipers to be effective with 'Long Range' weapon that can not dhoot as far as a rail gun, change this.
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Monkey MAC
Lost Millennium
1314
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Posted - 2013.12.25 13:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ok, well I don't agree with the drawback personally, it completely undoes the scanners main positive.
Instead I propose that instead you only get tag data while the scanner is equipped.
This stops it being by KDR chasers and makes more squad based.
As a buff to scouts they get an option to have a sidearm simultaneously.
Next don't give data real time, instead give snapshots, replace scan time with pulse interval.
This stops 360-¦ scanning tactics, if you want to track infront of you have to continue facing that way.
While scanning shouldn't tag you to your opponents, it should make you easier to scan.
Tanks 514
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Patrick57
Fatal Absolution
3003
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Posted - 2013.12.25 13:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
Do you mean "proposed"?
Not to be a **** or anything, but if you mean "proposed", then the title is very misleading.
When I'm depressed, I cut myself......A BIG SLICE OF CHOCOLATE CAKE! nú+
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pyramidhead 420
Carbon 7
CRONOS.
249
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Posted - 2013.12.25 13:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
1 module slot keeps you off 2 of 3 scanners. pretty easy isnt it? scanners are fine |
fragmentedhackslash
FREE AGENTS LP
29
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Posted - 2013.12.25 13:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:
Next don't give data real time, instead give snapshots, replace scan time with pulse interval.
This stops 360-¦ scanning tactics, if you want to track infront of you have to continue facing that way.
While scanning shouldn't tag you to your opponents, it should make you easier to scan.
Don't give real data time? WHAT THE HECK SON!
Stop 360-¦ scans? HOW ARE YOU MEANT TO SCAN SOMEONE ABOVE OR BELOW YOU THEN?
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Keri Starlight
0uter.Heaven
2197
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Posted - 2013.12.25 14:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
Scanners are fine unless you're a scout. Scouts need a lower base profile.
1 Complex Dampener and you're suddenly beating 95% of scanners. I got dampened, so people, "get dampened".
Just get rid of the "margin of error" thing, that should not be displayed at all.
"I load my gun with love instead of bullets"
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fragmentedhackslash
FREE AGENTS LP
30
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Posted - 2013.12.25 14:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
Keri Starlight wrote:Scanners are fine unless you're a scout. Scouts need a lower base profile.
1 Complex Dampener and you're suddenly beating 95% of scanners. I got dampened, so people, "get dampened".
Just get rid of the "margin of error" thing, that should not be displayed at all.
Cloaking will make this statement redundant.
Pain is just weakness leaving your body.
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Blaze Ashra
Ametat Security
Amarr Empire
40
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Posted - 2013.12.25 14:05:00 -
[10] - Quote
1. I want my range/precision/dampening skills to be the adjusting factor rather than type and I don't want my scanner modules/equipment to be determinant on vehicle/dropsuit type.
1a. Does this apply to vehicle scanners as well?
2. Nope. Make it so that it checks the scanners db level and if they are over it then allow them to show up. If it's going to make me a target and I have no way to counter it then there's no reason to use it.
3. I like this idea.
4. Not sure on this one.
As an aside, I'd rather they not make active scanners or profile dampening useless. I've already got enough prerequisite skills that don't do anything, I don't need another 3 skills to be wasted investments. |
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11402
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Posted - 2013.12.25 14:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
Patrick57 wrote:Do you mean "proposed"?
Not to be a **** or anything, but if you mean "proposed", then the title is very misleading.
Dictionary wrote:
pur-+pose
-êp+Örp+Ös/Submit
verbformal
past tense: purposed; past participle: purposed
1.
have as one's intention or objective.
"God has allowed suffering, even purposed it"
synonyms:intend, mean, aim, plan, design, have the intention; More
Considering that was then and this is now. That is the previous proposal I have established. Thus I am willing to see what others have to say.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11403
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Posted - 2013.12.25 14:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
As for the active scanner revealing the scanners position I have drawn inspiration from submarine warfare.
Submarines use passive sensors most of the time to find other subs and is their ultimate primary means of sensing. The reason being is that if they used sonar every single passive sensor in the area picks them up with high amounts of clarity.
Surface ships especially sub hunters which cannot hide like a sub have nothing to lose giving their position away so its of little risk to them to do so.
This will play a bit more into the cloak and counter dagger game play if this is done this way. A scout not wanting to be seen should be relying on native passive sensors.
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
5031
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Posted - 2013.12.25 14:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
One complex profile mod to beat an ADVANCED active scanner.
TWO Complex profile mods to beat a PROTO active scanner.
So basically, I lose a lot so I can hide from the brick tanked Logi, awesome.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
5032
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Posted - 2013.12.25 14:19:00 -
[14] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Ok, well I don't agree with the drawback personally, it completely undoes the scanners main positive.
Instead I propose that instead you only get tag data while the scanner is equipped.
This stops it being by KDR chasers and makes more squad based.
As a buff to scouts they get an option to have a sidearm simultaneously.
Next don't give data real time, instead give snapshots, replace scan time with pulse interval.
This stops 360-¦ scanning tactics, if you want to track infront of you have to continue facing that way.
While scanning shouldn't tag you to your opponents, it should make you easier to scan.
Monkey, the scanner's main positive is it's ridiculous range and ease of use for practical wallhack.
In order for a passive scanner suit to work, you need:
2-3 range amps (Depending on if you're a scout)
2-3 precision enhancers (ditto)
OR
One equipment that does it all.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Lorhak Gannarsein
882
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Posted - 2013.12.25 14:19:00 -
[15] - Quote
I like these proposed changes (I also agree with Patrick - do please change the title).
I don't have any problem with being reverse-scanned; seems like it might even be helpful. After all, if they know where you are too, it saves a lot of running 
PRO tanker and proud.
Lentarr Legionary.
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fragmentedhackslash
FREE AGENTS LP
30
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Posted - 2013.12.25 14:22:00 -
[16] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:As for the active scanner revealing the scanners position I have drawn inspiration from submarine warfare.
Submarines use passive sensors most of the time to find other subs and hostile surface targets and is their ultimate primary means of sensing. The reason being is that if they used sonar every single passive sensor in the area picks them up with high amounts of clarity.
Surface ships especially sub hunters which cannot hide like a sub have nothing to lose giving their position away so its of little risk to them to do so.
This will play a bit more into the cloak and counter dagger game play if this is done this way. A scout not wanting to be seen should be relying on native passive sensors.
Active sensors only work at 50% of their range or less because there is usually not enough energy to make a return trip back to the sensor in question.
Passive Sensors work at 100% range regardless because they're sensing for energy.
Then syncronise all passive suit san acquisitions from individual suits to the rest of the squad.
Also as sniper scope target acquisition is passive syncronise thisto squad aswell
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Every day is a holiday.
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Blaze Ashra
Ametat Security
Amarr Empire
40
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Posted - 2013.12.25 14:25:00 -
[17] - Quote
Still don't like the idea of punishing someone for using an active scanner when they have an awesome in game counter already. So when are we getting cloaking modules and will they be available for vehicles? I'd like one for my dropship so I have a way to deal with the forge/railgun players. |
Blaze Ashra
Ametat Security
Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2013.12.25 14:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote: A scout not wanting to be seen should be relying on native passive sensors. .
What's wrong with relying on profile dampeners, cover and flanking? The best thing about active scanners is knowing what's around you and determining the strength of your opposition so you can plan your next move without to much of an issue. Now if you're going to make it broadcast your position then it nullifies almost all of the positives. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11404
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Posted - 2013.12.25 14:42:00 -
[19] - Quote
Blaze Ashra wrote:Still don't like the idea of punishing someone for using an active scanner when they have an awesome in game counter already. So when are we getting cloaking modules and will they be available for vehicles? I'd like one for my dropship so I have a way to deal with the forge/railgun players.
Using an active scanner is a massive powerup.
There needs to be a drawback.
And cloaking is non-factor different game play then.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11404
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Posted - 2013.12.25 14:43:00 -
[20] - Quote
Blaze Ashra wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote: A scout not wanting to be seen should be relying on native passive sensors. . What's wrong with relying on profile dampeners, cover and flanking? The best thing about active scanners is knowing what's around you and determining the strength of your opposition so you can plan your next move without to much of an issue. Now if you're going to make it broadcast your position then it nullifies almost all of the positives.
No, not really. Go look up the history of submarine warfare and the use of sonar.
Plays fully into the risk vs reward or creating risk for a reward.
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Yoma Carrim
Situation Normal all fraked up
199
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Posted - 2013.12.25 14:43:00 -
[21] - Quote
Blaze Ashra wrote:Still don't like the idea of punishing someone for using an active scanner when they have an awesome in game counter already. So when are we getting cloaking modules and will they be available for vehicles? I'd like one for my dropship so I have a way to deal with the forge/railgun players.
Oh spec ops dropships yes please (give them a role bonus to reduce a vehicle cloak module's CPU and PG cost)
When you turn a corner and find the entire enemy team.Oh Heck
Logi, Tanker, Heavy
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11404
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Posted - 2013.12.25 14:49:00 -
[22] - Quote
Yoma Carrim wrote:Blaze Ashra wrote:Still don't like the idea of punishing someone for using an active scanner when they have an awesome in game counter already. So when are we getting cloaking modules and will they be available for vehicles? I'd like one for my dropship so I have a way to deal with the forge/railgun players. Oh spec ops dropships yes please (give them a role bonus to reduce a vehicle cloak module's CPU and PG cost)
Unfortunately this is barring new content. If new content was included there be a host of other things including covert stuff and cloaks and their drawbacks.
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I-Shayz-I
I-----I
1734
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Posted - 2013.12.25 14:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
If "1", then better scanners should last for longer times...since the only reason to have better scanners right now is the dB level.
Longer times shouldn't just be a "variant"
Also, better scanners should have a larger scan radius and degree because of 3 and 4
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11407
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Posted - 2013.12.25 14:59:00 -
[24] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:If "1", then better scanners should last for longer times...since the only reason to have better scanners right now is the dB level.
Longer times shouldn't just be a "variant"
Also, better scanners should have a larger scan radius and degree because of 3 and 4
I agree brining in attributes to scanners including range, resolution, strength, and duration and possibly falloff and optimal ranges as well.
Another factor I wouldn't mind added is a scan 'frequency' or a range that a scanner is expert at for example you picked up a scanner that is specifically designed to find equipment. While it may find scouts that dip their signature way too low. It should be mostly useful in finding hostile equipment mostly.
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Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
864
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Posted - 2013.12.25 15:05:00 -
[25] - Quote
Interesting, I had a scanner change thread just the other day myself. It basically just calls for the passive scanners to use a solid increase instead of a percentage increase. Nice ideas here as well.
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Blaze Ashra
Ametat Security
Amarr Empire
42
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Posted - 2013.12.25 15:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:No, not really. Go look up the history of submarine warfare and the use of sonar.
Plays fully into the risk vs reward or creating risk for a reward.
Okay I read this but you still didn't answer the question. How can we counter the drawback you're proposing with current in game content and why should it not be dependent on your decibel level? Seriously I don't want my skills into profile dampening, active scanners and vehicle electronics to be wasted. |
Sana Rayya
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL
Top Men.
578
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Posted - 2013.12.25 15:10:00 -
[27] - Quote
Oh look, another thread made by people unwilling to use profile dampeners. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11407
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Posted - 2013.12.25 15:13:00 -
[28] - Quote
Blaze Ashra wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:No, not really. Go look up the history of submarine warfare and the use of sonar.
Plays fully into the risk vs reward or creating risk for a reward. Okay I read this but you still didn't answer the question. How can we counter the drawback you're proposing with current in game content and why should it not be dependent on your decibel level? Seriously I don't want my skills into profile dampening, active scanners and vehicle electronics to be wasted.
Read 5 on the OP. Passive sensors should get a buff with this considering the proposals will refactor everything related to sensors and how they detect things. Scouts should be getting decent pair of eyes on the back of their heads once skilled.
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I-Shayz-I
I-----I
1736
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Posted - 2013.12.25 15:14:00 -
[29] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Another factor I wouldn't mind added is a scan 'frequency' or a range that a scanner is expert at for example you picked up a scanner that is specifically designed to find equipment. While it may find scouts that dip their signature way too low. It should be mostly useful in finding hostile equipment mostly.
Why not just make a change to equipment that makes it so that you need to hit a certain dB level to find them?
For instance having prototype equipment at 28dB to make it much harder to find a well placed uplink.
Then when they make the adjustment to equipment spam, placement of high level equipment would actaully be rewarded instead of just spamming as much as possible.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11407
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Posted - 2013.12.25 15:15:00 -
[30] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Another factor I wouldn't mind added is a scan 'frequency' or a range that a scanner is expert at for example you picked up a scanner that is specifically designed to find equipment. While it may find scouts that dip their signature way too low. It should be mostly useful in finding hostile equipment mostly. Why not just make a change to equipment that makes it so that you need to hit a certain dB level to find them? For instance having prototype equipment at 28dB to make it much harder to find a well placed uplink. Then when they make the adjustment to equipment spam, placement of high level equipment would actaully be rewarded instead of just spamming as much as possible.
That could work as well. or a variant of the equipment added.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11407
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Posted - 2013.12.25 15:16:00 -
[31] - Quote
Sana Rayya wrote:Oh look, another thread made by people unwilling to use profile dampeners.
Oh look someone who doesn't know that I runs a stealth assault suit.
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Paran Tadec
Imperfect Bastards
1804
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Posted - 2013.12.25 15:23:00 -
[32] - Quote
Heres what Ive told Kane:
Scanners provide a snapshot. Essentially they tell you where someone was at the moment they were scanned. 360 degree scans will still be possible, but itll no longer be possible to track someone through walls. The scan will only show a dot on the radar, and not indicate direction of travel. Instead of chevrons for a scanned redberry, a small scanner icon will appear instead indicating someone was scanned at this spot.
Bittervet Proficiency V
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Grimmiers
0uter.Heaven
395
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Posted - 2013.12.25 15:23:00 -
[33] - Quote
I've requested a few of these changes including the drop off based on range and some fix to the spin scanning. My idea to reduce the spinning was to make it less accurate the more it was rotated.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11408
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Posted - 2013.12.25 15:24:00 -
[34] - Quote
Grimmiers wrote:I've requested a few of these changes including the drop off based on range and some fix to the spin scanning. My idea to reduce the spinning was to make it less accurate the more it was rotated.
I thought of that then I thought about the limitations of the game. If it is possible where 'spinning' just gives you crappy results then yeah I'd go for it. Or that maybe the longer you spray the longer it stays pinged.
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Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate
Amarr Empire
995
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Posted - 2013.12.25 15:29:00 -
[35] - Quote
Cooldown time needs a major increase. Allowing people to spam the scanner is the most glaring flaw of the scanner. Only making a few suits truly effective with it does not address this issue, just limits the pool of people who can abuse it.
!
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11408
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Posted - 2013.12.25 15:32:00 -
[36] - Quote
Krom Ganesh wrote:Cooldown time needs a major increase. Allowing people to spam the scanner is the most glaring flaw of the scanner. Only making a few suits truly effective with it does not address this issue, just limits the pool of people who can abuse it.
I disagree the longer cooldown is countered by just more bodies equipped with it.
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fragmentedhackslash
FREE AGENTS LP
31
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Posted - 2013.12.25 15:37:00 -
[37] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Blaze Ashra wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote: A scout not wanting to be seen should be relying on native passive sensors. . What's wrong with relying on profile dampeners, cover and flanking? The best thing about active scanners is knowing what's around you and determining the strength of your opposition so you can plan your next move without to much of an issue. Now if you're going to make it broadcast your position then it nullifies almost all of the positives. No, not really. Go look up the history of submarine warfare and the use of sonar. Plays fully into the risk vs reward or creating risk for a reward.
This is why we can't have nice things.
Pain is just weakness leaving your body.
Every day is a holiday.
Every meal is a feast.
I am hungry. Let's go eat!
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fragmentedhackslash
FREE AGENTS LP
31
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Posted - 2013.12.25 15:39:00 -
[38] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Krom Ganesh wrote:Cooldown time needs a major increase. Allowing people to spam the scanner is the most glaring flaw of the scanner. Only making a few suits truly effective with it does not address this issue, just limits the pool of people who can abuse it. I disagree the longer cooldown is countered by just more bodies equipped with it.
Which you WILL NOT HAVE more people equipping them if it guves away your position.
Pain is just weakness leaving your body.
Every day is a holiday.
Every meal is a feast.
I am hungry. Let's go eat!
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11411
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Posted - 2013.12.25 15:40:00 -
[39] - Quote
fragmentedhackslash wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Blaze Ashra wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote: A scout not wanting to be seen should be relying on native passive sensors. . What's wrong with relying on profile dampeners, cover and flanking? The best thing about active scanners is knowing what's around you and determining the strength of your opposition so you can plan your next move without to much of an issue. Now if you're going to make it broadcast your position then it nullifies almost all of the positives. No, not really. Go look up the history of submarine warfare and the use of sonar. Plays fully into the risk vs reward or creating risk for a reward. This is why we can't have nice things.
Hey WW1 started with hand waving to the other pilot as you flew over the battlefield.
WW1 Ended with people getting shot down because someone decided they needed to bring a pistol in the air with them. Which lead to a whole assortment of trouble.
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fragmentedhackslash
FREE AGENTS LP
31
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Posted - 2013.12.25 15:46:00 -
[40] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:fragmentedhackslash wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Blaze Ashra wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote: A scout not wanting to be seen should be relying on native passive sensors. . What's wrong with relying on profile dampeners, cover and flanking? The best thing about active scanners is knowing what's around you and determining the strength of your opposition so you can plan your next move without to much of an issue. Now if you're going to make it broadcast your position then it nullifies almost all of the positives. No, not really. Go look up the history of submarine warfare and the use of sonar. Plays fully into the risk vs reward or creating risk for a reward. This is why we can't have nice things. Hey WW1 started with hand waving to the other pilot as you flew over the battlefield. Ended with people getting shot down.
#points at =EvE= stardate...
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Pain is just weakness leaving your body.
Every day is a holiday.
Every meal is a feast.
I am hungry. Let's go eat!
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Blaze Ashra
Ametat Security
Amarr Empire
42
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Posted - 2013.12.25 15:54:00 -
[41] - Quote
So this buff to passive scan range how much do you want it to be? Scouts already had 20 meters for a bit but they reduced it to 15. |
Nocturnal Soul
Immortal Retribution
1381
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Posted - 2013.12.25 15:58:00 -
[42] - Quote
Praise the Iron Wolf, now shove this down CCP rouges pie hole and make it happen.
"The trick to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources..." Albert Einstein
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11413
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Posted - 2013.12.25 16:12:00 -
[43] - Quote
Blaze Ashra wrote:So this buff to passive scan range how much do you want it to be? Scouts already had 20 meters for a bit but they reduced it to 15.
Large and effective enough that a sensored up scout can play around a small socket and know where most people are in it.
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Nocturnal Soul
Immortal Retribution
1383
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Posted - 2013.12.25 16:24:00 -
[44] - Quote
Scouts have a 16m scan while light frames have the 20m passive scan unless they changed that in the resent patch.
"The trick to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources..." Albert Einstein
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DeadlyAztec11
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
2932
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Posted - 2013.12.25 16:42:00 -
[45] - Quote
I agree with your points Wolf, scanners are far too strong, especially at proto.
My alts: GeneralJohnRipper, Draxus Prime, MoonEagle A, Long Evity
And this is why I am the #1 forum warrior.
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Monkey MAC
Lost Millennium
1317
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Posted - 2013.12.25 19:21:00 -
[46] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Ok, well I don't agree with the drawback personally, it completely undoes the scanners main positive.
Instead I propose that instead you only get tag data while the scanner is equipped.
This stops it being by KDR chasers and makes more squad based.
As a buff to scouts they get an option to have a sidearm simultaneously.
Next don't give data real time, instead give snapshots, replace scan time with pulse interval.
This stops 360-¦ scanning tactics, if you want to track infront of you have to continue facing that way.
While scanning shouldn't tag you to your opponents, it should make you easier to scan. Monkey, the scanner's main positive is it's ridiculous range and ease of use for practical wallhack. In order for a passive scanner suit to work, you need: 2-3 range amps (Depending on if you're a scout) 2-3 precision enhancers (ditto) OR One equipment that does it all.
Ridicoulous range and wall hacks shouldn't be positive certainly, while without penalty.
IWS penalty only makes sense with the current configuration, but the one I pose makes scanners fairer, buffs scouts and allows for more variations.
Tanks 514
I told you, I bloody well told you.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
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Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
868
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Posted - 2013.12.25 22:41:00 -
[47] - Quote
Bump. Because, y'know.... DEM SCANZ! And because I'm bored. VERY bored.
Ulthane: Now get off of my property, 'fore more pigeons come looking an' crap on me yard!
Overlord's: Ulath Bosse Zero
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Ghost Kaisar
Titans of Phoenix
1325
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Posted - 2013.12.25 23:19:00 -
[48] - Quote
pyramidhead 420 wrote:1 module slot keeps you off 2 of 3 scanners. pretty easy isnt it? scanners are fine
NOPE.
You do realize that my Minmatar scout only has 2 low slots right?
I want to passively resist proto scanners in my Proto scout suit please. I give up CPU/PG and slots to get a passive dampening, yet scanners still have the upper hand.
Minmatar Faction Warfare: Let's get Organized
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Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
875
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Posted - 2013.12.26 06:52:00 -
[49] - Quote
SOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH BOOOOOOOOOOOORED!
Also, I want this to a lesser extent for the Minnassault. Max skill should give us passive damps enough to avoid Adv scanners since we only have 2 lows and are mostly worthless apart from being able to strafe slightly faster than other mediums.
Ghost Kaisar wrote:pyramidhead 420 wrote:1 module slot keeps you off 2 of 3 scanners. pretty easy isnt it? scanners are fine NOPE. You do realize that my Minmatar scout only has 2 low slots right? I want to passively resist proto scanners in my Proto scout suit please. I give up CPU/PG and slots to get a passive dampening, yet scanners still have the upper hand.
That, or I want proto lvl range on my scans so it might actually be worth throwing something in my 5 highs apart from shields.
Ulthane: Now get off of my property, 'fore more pigeons come looking an' crap on me yard!
Overlord's: Ulath Bosse Zero
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Paran Tadec
Imperfect Bastards
1806
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Posted - 2013.12.26 18:05:00 -
[50] - Quote
Paran Tadec wrote:Heres what Ive told Kane:
Scanners provide a snapshot. Essentially they tell you where someone was at the moment they were scanned. 360 degree scans will still be possible, but itll no longer be possible to track someone through walls. The scan will only show a dot on the radar, and not indicate direction of travel. Instead of chevrons for a scanned redberry, a small scanner icon will appear instead indicating someone was scanned at this spot.
Still the best idea here.
Bittervet Proficiency V
thanks logibro!
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Ryme Intrinseca
The Rainbow Effect
529
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Posted - 2013.12.26 18:09:00 -
[51] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:On the grounds of no new content I purpose these changes.
1. Active Scanners will rely on suit or vehicle own natural sensors to find targets. Better the natural sensors the better it can find things. Lights having the best while heavies the worst. Vehicles are in a similar position with LAVs having the best with HAVs having the worst. Both strength and Range are accounted for. This is to encourage roles of suits and vehicles, scouts becoming scoutier and commandos not able to role stomp on them anymore.
1a. Fitting Suit Range Amplifiers and Suit Sensor Resolution Modules will also enhance active scanner functions. Vehicles are currently lacking the modules and slots to support this at the moment and if added should be a multipurpose module instead of individuals as they are on the dropsuit.
2. Active scanning player or vehicle will be revealed to the entire hostile team at 2x the range than he can detect at as though he himself had been scanned. This is the drawback of using the scanner and cannot be defeated completely without new content (active dampener) This increases interplay and make the game more interesting for those getting scanned and those doing the scanning.
3. Active scanners drop in strength over distance, it is possible to create variants that have sweet spots (long range but nearsighted) or work around this concept.
4. Active scanners activate instantly instead of scanning for 5 seconds. This will prevent 360 scans or sweeping scans. To compensate the scanner cooldown could be toned to allow quicker rescans or new variants brought in that are shorter ranged.
5. Lower the signature radius of the suit the shorter they remain 'pinged' this does combine with items 2 and 3 so scouts and recons who are scanning are not shown for up as long but also scans made by scouts and lights will last much longer than the commando. This is also impart of role fitting as well as making bigger not so much better as larger electronically sized targets will be detrimental.
NOTE:
By no means is this supposed to be a NERF, a pox upon your ignorance for thinking otherwise.
These are all terrible ideas. If it ain't broke don't fix it. |
Paran Tadec
Imperfect Bastards
1806
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Posted - 2013.12.26 18:20:00 -
[52] - Quote
Ryme Intrinseca wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:On the grounds of no new content I purpose these changes.
1. Active Scanners will rely on suit or vehicle own natural sensors to find targets. Better the natural sensors the better it can find things. Lights having the best while heavies the worst. Vehicles are in a similar position with LAVs having the best with HAVs having the worst. Both strength and Range are accounted for. This is to encourage roles of suits and vehicles, scouts becoming scoutier and commandos not able to role stomp on them anymore.
1a. Fitting Suit Range Amplifiers and Suit Sensor Resolution Modules will also enhance active scanner functions. Vehicles are currently lacking the modules and slots to support this at the moment and if added should be a multipurpose module instead of individuals as they are on the dropsuit.
2. Active scanning player or vehicle will be revealed to the entire hostile team at 2x the range than he can detect at as though he himself had been scanned. This is the drawback of using the scanner and cannot be defeated completely without new content (active dampener) This increases interplay and make the game more interesting for those getting scanned and those doing the scanning.
3. Active scanners drop in strength over distance, it is possible to create variants that have sweet spots (long range but nearsighted) or work around this concept.
4. Active scanners activate instantly instead of scanning for 5 seconds. This will prevent 360 scans or sweeping scans. To compensate the scanner cooldown could be toned to allow quicker rescans or new variants brought in that are shorter ranged.
5. Lower the signature radius of the suit the shorter they remain 'pinged' this does combine with items 2 and 3 so scouts and recons who are scanning are not shown for up as long but also scans made by scouts and lights will last much longer than the commando. This is also impart of role fitting as well as making bigger not so much better as larger electronically sized targets will be detrimental.
NOTE:
By no means is this supposed to be a NERF, a pox upon your ignorance for thinking otherwise. These are all terrible ideas. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
Scanner is broke as ffff. I use it all the time.
Bittervet Proficiency V
thanks logibro!
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Ryme Intrinseca
The Rainbow Effect
530
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Posted - 2013.12.26 18:44:00 -
[53] - Quote
Paran Tadec wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:On the grounds of no new content I purpose these changes.
1. Active Scanners will rely on suit or vehicle own natural sensors to find targets. Better the natural sensors the better it can find things. Lights having the best while heavies the worst. Vehicles are in a similar position with LAVs having the best with HAVs having the worst. Both strength and Range are accounted for. This is to encourage roles of suits and vehicles, scouts becoming scoutier and commandos not able to role stomp on them anymore.
1a. Fitting Suit Range Amplifiers and Suit Sensor Resolution Modules will also enhance active scanner functions. Vehicles are currently lacking the modules and slots to support this at the moment and if added should be a multipurpose module instead of individuals as they are on the dropsuit.
2. Active scanning player or vehicle will be revealed to the entire hostile team at 2x the range than he can detect at as though he himself had been scanned. This is the drawback of using the scanner and cannot be defeated completely without new content (active dampener) This increases interplay and make the game more interesting for those getting scanned and those doing the scanning.
3. Active scanners drop in strength over distance, it is possible to create variants that have sweet spots (long range but nearsighted) or work around this concept.
4. Active scanners activate instantly instead of scanning for 5 seconds. This will prevent 360 scans or sweeping scans. To compensate the scanner cooldown could be toned to allow quicker rescans or new variants brought in that are shorter ranged.
5. Lower the signature radius of the suit the shorter they remain 'pinged' this does combine with items 2 and 3 so scouts and recons who are scanning are not shown for up as long but also scans made by scouts and lights will last much longer than the commando. This is also impart of role fitting as well as making bigger not so much better as larger electronically sized targets will be detrimental.
NOTE:
By no means is this supposed to be a NERF, a pox upon your ignorance for thinking otherwise. These are all terrible ideas. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Scanner is broke as ffff. I use it all the time.
Tell me what the problem is and we'll see if there's a solution. If the issue is that it's too hard for scouts to get under the scan, do something that responds specifically to that problem without creating new ones. Lower their profile or give them an extra slot, for instance. Don't just change everything about how scanners work without expecting that to have wider consequences.
All I'm seeing is yet another IWS proposal for sweeping changes that will inevitably nerf something into oblivion, like his ideas always do, whether he means it or not. How are swarmers doing nowadays?
Changes should be about fixing imbalances in the game without creating new ones, not demolishing everything that came before it in the hope that balance emerges spontaneously from the chaos. It never does. |
Sana Rayya
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL
Top Men.
597
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Posted - 2013.12.26 18:57:00 -
[54] - Quote
Changing the active scanner's precision/scan radius to be based on the suit's precision/radius is a bad idea. This is due to the disparity in the values obtainable through modules/skills across the different suit types.
A scanner that is marginally useful on suits without precision/range skills/modules would be super OP on suits that are fully proto in precision/range and stacked with the corresponding proto mods.
Conversely, a scanner that would be equivalent to the present scanners in the hands of a fully precision/range modded suit would be utterly useless on an unmodded suit.
Right now, scanning/dampening has a good balance. Scouts can dodge all but one scanner with minimal effort (202k SP and 1 module costing 15 or 18 CPU). Mediums can dodge all but one scanner with moderate effort (932k SP and 2 modules costing 66 CPU). The one scanner that scans them all is a piece of crap (costs 18 PG, has a 5 second scan time and 5 second paint time, and you must wait 33 seconds between consecutive scans, so you only have data for 30% of the game). If this scanner was OP then you'd run into it a whole lot more, yet I nearly never see it in game. It might as well not even exist, and I for one would support its removal if only to stop QQ.
As Ryme said, if it ain't broke... |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11430
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Posted - 2013.12.26 20:51:00 -
[55] - Quote
Sana Rayya wrote:Changing the active scanner's precision/scan radius to be based on the suit's precision/radius is a bad idea. This is due to the disparity in the values obtainable through modules/skills across the different suit types.
A scanner that is marginally useful on suits without precision/range skills/modules would be super OP on suits that are fully proto in precision/range and stacked with the corresponding proto mods.
Conversely, a scanner that would be equivalent to the present scanners in the hands of a fully precision/range modded suit would be utterly useless on an unmodded suit.
Right now, scanning/dampening has a good balance. Scouts can dodge all but one scanner with minimal effort (202k SP and 1 module costing 15 or 18 CPU). Mediums can dodge all but one scanner with moderate effort (932k SP and 2 modules costing 66 CPU). The one scanner that scans them all is a piece of crap (costs 18 PG, has a 5 second scan time and 5 second paint time, and you must wait 33 seconds between consecutive scans, so you only have data for 30% of the game). If this scanner was OP then you'd run into it a whole lot more, yet I nearly never see it in game. It might as well not even exist, and I for one would support its removal if only to stop QQ.
As Ryme said, if it ain't broke...
It's broke.
We have 69 suits and under a full line up permise 84 . Based on the current slot assignment so far provided by existing suits even at 82 suits only 1 Suit would be capable of beating the scanner. Of the 84 suits at minimal 68 of them can fit the scanner. As of now this is the ONLY module with this type of clear cut disparity, every other module and equipment in the game can and has been defeated by every other suit and platform you can use it on.
Cloaking by all means MUST not be the sole counter but based on what I been hearing so far its not going to be because active scanners are the hard counter for cloaks not the other way around.
These changes would allow ANY suit to defeat an active scanner on the grounds the suit operator knows what the hell he's doing to avoid it. In turn the scan operator can beat any suit provided he knows what the hell he's doing.
Skills and module meta then becomes extra noise on the field and additional make things interesting once cloaks hit the field.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Rail and Combat Rifle =// Unlocked
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RKKR
The Southern Legion
The Umbra Combine
567
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Posted - 2013.12.26 20:57:00 -
[56] - Quote
I introduce to you:
- scout suits
- TacNet
- get rid of active scanners.
You're welcome. |
fragmentedhackslash
FREE AGENTS LP
40
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Posted - 2013.12.26 20:59:00 -
[57] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Sana Rayya wrote:Changing the active scanner's precision/scan radius to be based on the suit's precision/radius is a bad idea. This is due to the disparity in the values obtainable through modules/skills across the different suit types.
A scanner that is marginally useful on suits without precision/range skills/modules would be super OP on suits that are fully proto in precision/range and stacked with the corresponding proto mods.
Conversely, a scanner that would be equivalent to the present scanners in the hands of a fully precision/range modded suit would be utterly useless on an unmodded suit.
Right now, scanning/dampening has a good balance. Scouts can dodge all but one scanner with minimal effort (202k SP and 1 module costing 15 or 18 CPU). Mediums can dodge all but one scanner with moderate effort (932k SP and 2 modules costing 66 CPU). The one scanner that scans them all is a piece of crap (costs 18 PG, has a 5 second scan time and 5 second paint time, and you must wait 33 seconds between consecutive scans, so you only have data for 30% of the game). If this scanner was OP then you'd run into it a whole lot more, yet I nearly never see it in game. It might as well not even exist, and I for one would support its removal if only to stop QQ.
As Ryme said, if it ain't broke... It's broke. We have 69 suits and under a full line up permise 84 . Based on the current slot assignment so far provided by existing suits even at 82 suits only 1 Suit would be capable of beating the scanner. Of the 84 suits at minimal 68 of them can fit the scanner. As of now this is the ONLY module with this type of clear cut disparity, every other module and equipment in the game can and has been defeated by every other suit and platform you can use it on. Cloaking by all means MUST not be the sole counter but based on what I been hearing so far its not going to be because active scanners are the hard counter for cloaks not the other way around. These changes would allow ANY suit to defeat an active scanner on the grounds the suit operator knows what the hell he's doing to avoid it. In turn the scan operator can beat any suit provided he knows what the hell he's doing. Skills and module meta then becomes extra noise on the field and additional make things interesting once cloaks hit the field.
fix the suits then.
Pain is just weakness leaving your body.
Every day is a holiday.
Every meal is a feast.
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Sana Rayya
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL
Top Men.
598
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Posted - 2013.12.26 21:38:00 -
[58] - Quote
Remove the scanner that detects everybody, because it is such a HUGE problem in pubs/FW/PC since everyone is using it (/sarcasm).
Problem solved. Mediums only need two slots to beat the 28dB proto scanners, and a heavy proto sentinel could beat it with four complex dampeners if they wished.
As to your rationale, every suit SHOULDN'T be able to do something as effectively as other suits. A heavy will never be able to run as fast as a scout, nor will the scout be able to have as much EHP as the heavy. If equality was the intention, we'd all have the same suit with a 5/5/4 layout.
I ran the numbers for a suit-based scanner. What I found boiled down to my previous post - you can't design one without it being either too weak for players with no precision/range skills, or too strong for players that have full precision/range skills/modules. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11430
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Posted - 2013.12.26 22:07:00 -
[59] - Quote
fragmentedhackslash wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Sana Rayya wrote:Changing the active scanner's precision/scan radius to be based on the suit's precision/radius is a bad idea. This is due to the disparity in the values obtainable through modules/skills across the different suit types.
A scanner that is marginally useful on suits without precision/range skills/modules would be super OP on suits that are fully proto in precision/range and stacked with the corresponding proto mods.
Conversely, a scanner that would be equivalent to the present scanners in the hands of a fully precision/range modded suit would be utterly useless on an unmodded suit.
Right now, scanning/dampening has a good balance. Scouts can dodge all but one scanner with minimal effort (202k SP and 1 module costing 15 or 18 CPU). Mediums can dodge all but one scanner with moderate effort (932k SP and 2 modules costing 66 CPU). The one scanner that scans them all is a piece of crap (costs 18 PG, has a 5 second scan time and 5 second paint time, and you must wait 33 seconds between consecutive scans, so you only have data for 30% of the game). If this scanner was OP then you'd run into it a whole lot more, yet I nearly never see it in game. It might as well not even exist, and I for one would support its removal if only to stop QQ.
As Ryme said, if it ain't broke... It's broke. We have 69 suits and under a full line up permise 84 . Based on the current slot assignment so far provided by existing suits even at 82 suits only 1 Suit would be capable of beating the scanner. Of the 84 suits at minimal 68 of them can fit the scanner. As of now this is the ONLY module with this type of clear cut disparity, every other module and equipment in the game can and has been defeated by every other suit and platform you can use it on. Cloaking by all means MUST not be the sole counter but based on what I been hearing so far its not going to be because active scanners are the hard counter for cloaks not the other way around. These changes would allow ANY suit to defeat an active scanner on the grounds the suit operator knows what the hell he's doing to avoid it. In turn the scan operator can beat any suit provided he knows what the hell he's doing. Skills and module meta then becomes extra noise on the field and additional make things interesting once cloaks hit the field. fix the suits then.
okay deletes GK. 0 1/4 slot layout to 2.3.
Fix'ed
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Rail and Combat Rifle =// Unlocked
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lordjanuz
Norwegian Dust514 Corporation
Top Men.
250
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Posted - 2013.12.26 22:40:00 -
[60] - Quote
Scanners are fine. |
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Cass Caul
629
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Posted - 2013.12.27 00:35:00 -
[61] - Quote
I am not a big fanof this. As a Gallente Scout, what I want is for passive scanning and active scanning to be competitive.
Range Amplification, Precision Enhancement, and Active Scanner all have the same training multiplier, which means that passive scanning is twice the SP investment that active scanning is.
Active Scanners have 360-¦ vision, my criticism of the twirling around in a circle being an exploit was moved from support/bugs section to the feedback/request section was CCP effectively letting me know that spinning in a circle of 100m radius vision is by design.
The 15db scanner needs to be changed to 24 dB effectively letting a lvl 5 scout wiht lvl3 dampening use 1 module to defeat 1 module.
Scan Radius on all suits needs to be returned to previsous values: 25m for Scouts, 20m for all other suits.
This would make the effects of a single complex Range Amplifier on a Gallente Scout to a comparative, but still lesser, range of an Active Scanner.
Then there is the imbalance of Precision Enhancement and Profile Dampening. Less of the skill's innate bonus and more to the bonus provided by the modules. Increase the Precision Enhancers to e equal to profile dampeners. Then either the values of the ADV and PRO Active Scanners needs to be changed to mimic the effectiveness of passive scanning values.
If that were balanced for similar values, it would still be a high SP and fitting cost to mimic the effectiveness of an Active Scanner. This should be balanced by being able to have more than 1 precision enhancer or range amplifier.
A Gallente Scout should never have to use an Active Scanner to be able to maximize scanning. Having a role based off it, it should have better abilities than a single equipment slot. . . Balance the Active Scanner to the capabilities of Medium Frames.
For the record, I am a Gallente Scout... with proto Gallente and Caldari Logi, adv Gallente and Caldari Assault, and proto amarr assault. when I say I am a scout I mean at heart. It is my love. I just wish it was balanced.
+ÉߦëddGêÇ -çou -Äll+É-çoGö¦
one of 47% of gamers
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Cass Caul
629
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Posted - 2013.12.27 00:50:00 -
[62] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:okay deletes GK. 0 1/4 slot layout to 2.3.
Fix'ed
I know this is sarcasm, but the proto scout suit really needs to have 6 slots like it used to. gk.0 with 2H/4L and mk.0 with the original vk.0's 3H/3L
+ÉߦëddGêÇ -çou -Äll+É-çoGö¦
one of 47% of gamers
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Llast 326
An Arkhos
995
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Posted - 2013.12.27 00:56:00 -
[63] - Quote
Cass Caul wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:okay deletes GK. 0 1/4 slot layout to 2.3.
Fix'ed
I know this is sarcasm, but the proto scout suit really needs to have 6 slots like it used to. gk.0 with 2H/4L and mk.0 with the original vk.0's 3H/3L
Absolutely what should be done.
KRRROOOOOOM
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11437
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Posted - 2013.12.27 05:54:00 -
[64] - Quote
Updated the OP wording a bit.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Rail and Combat Rifle =// Unlocked
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11437
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Posted - 2013.12.27 05:59:00 -
[65] - Quote
Cass Caul wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:okay deletes GK. 0 1/4 slot layout to 2.3.
Fix'ed
I know this is sarcasm, but the proto scout suit really needs to have 6 slots like it used to. gk.0 with 2H/4L and mk.0 with the original vk.0's 3H/3L
Chances are though the gallente gk 0 will likely remain one of the stealth suits as its not a characteristic of either caldari nor amarr both have been traditionally noisy as hell. Amarr are most likely to have 3 and 3 caldari 4 and 2 if they go up to 6 slots if 5 is kept then Amarr is likely to have two equipment slots and 2/3 slot layout, and caldari 4 and 1 slot. Now this is also speculation on my own end about the possible slot layouts and I haven't been able to translate the SDE on my end.
This means that players will be forced to cross train their skill plans into a suit they don't or may not like just to defeat the best prototype scan meaning even with racial equality of all suits only 1 will still remain being able to defeat the scanner.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Rail and Combat Rifle =// Unlocked
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