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Why Factional Warfare LP payments are utterly broken

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Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4841	Posted - 2013.12.21 10:46:00 - [1] - Quote So, I lost all my motivation to play FW. Gallente are kicking ass, so it's not like I'll be helping my faction by playing, so the only thing left for me would be the reward. LP items are basically normal items with lowered skill requirements, but as someone who has maxed almost all the gear he uses, I need them to have good time --> reward investment (as in, the least amount of matches to gain the most amount of items). And that's where payments fall apart. Let's look at the Republic Freedom Mass Driver. ISK cost: 7,083 LP cost: 100 LP Now the Freedom Mass Driver: ISK cost: 47,220 So in order to figure out the LP value, we subtract the ISK cost from the Freedom Mass Drive by the ISK cost of the Republic one, then divide the result with the LP cost. (47,220 - 7,083) / 100 = 401 ISK per LP Now, in order to get the ISK reward per match, we multiply the LP we get per match by the ISK value of LP: You get 659 LP at level 10 if you win, so: 401 * 659 = 264,259 ISK And there is also the LP booster, boosted LP payout is 823 LP: 401 * 823 = 330,023 ISK Seems legit right? You get as much ISK as public contracts right? WRONG. LP is devalued by the fact that you can only buy specific stuff, unlike ISK that is usable to buy everywhere. But you could say that LP items are equal to Aurum items, so it evens out right? But.... Another problem: YOU GET AS MUCH ISK AS PUBLIC CONTRACTS. "Wait what? How is that a problem?" you might ask. I'll tell you why. Because FW matches require more risk. You need to WIN THE MATCH, and you need to endure TEAM KILLING AND you NEED TO GET TO LEVEL 10 JUST to have the same reward as public contracts that have no such problems. So: FW contracts: Have to win the match - Check Have to reach level 10 to have any decent reward - Check Have to endure team killing - Check = Public contracts: Have to win the match - Nope Have to reach level 10 to have any decent reward - Nope Have to endure team killing - Nope Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 6548	Posted - 2013.12.21 10:48:00 - [2] - Quote Try calculating without level 10 standings and a booster. Also, you don't win every match. Level 6 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution Gallente FW - 'Turalyon'
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4842	Posted - 2013.12.21 10:49:00 - [3] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Try calculating without level 10 standings and a booster. Also, you don't win every match. I already calculated without a booster. Plus I mentioned that the fact you don't win every match is a problem in terms of payouts. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Kasote Denzara A Vulture 1446	Posted - 2013.12.21 11:00:00 - [4] - Quote Meh. You can't get specialized weapons without LP, so there's that. You also have (near) zero impact on New Eden outside of FW. "Go ahead and dual tank. My Commando dual ganks." -Kasote Denzara The Traitor, in the name of "freedom".
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4845	Posted - 2013.12.21 11:01:00 - [5] - Quote Kasote Denzara wrote: Meh. You can't get specialized weapons without LP, so there's that. You also have (near) zero impact on New Eden outside of FW. Specialized weapons cost double the LP and ISK. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1287	Posted - 2013.12.21 11:02:00 - [6] - Quote Salvage I get about 90,000 isk salvage on average, more if blow up some tanks. And why are you buying the aurum versions, specialist fitting is where its at! Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
jerrmy12 kahoalii The dyst0pian Corporation Zero-Day 164	Posted - 2013.12.21 11:04:00 - [7] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Kasote Denzara wrote: Meh. You can't get specialized weapons without LP, so there's that. You also have (near) zero impact on New Eden outside of FW. Specialized weapons cost double the LP and ISK. LP payouts should be at least 1,000 at level 1, increasing by around 500 per level, and losing LP at level 1 should be 350 or 400 or something recuruit link 5 to 11 mil isk per 100k recuruit
Kasote Denzara A Vulture 1446	Posted - 2013.12.21 11:04:00 - [8] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Specialized weapons cost double the LP and ISK. Specialized weapons also use CPU and PG of Advanced weapons. You get what you pay for. "Go ahead and dual tank. My Commando dual ganks." -Kasote Denzara The Traitor, in the name of "freedom".
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4845	Posted - 2013.12.21 11:05:00 - [9] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Salvage I get about 90,000 isk salvage on average, more if blow up some tanks. And why are you buying the aurum versions, specialist fitting is where its at! That entirely depends on what other players bring. They could all run BPO's, and they might as well when they realize the payout is so low. And as I said, specialist weapons cost double the LP and ISK. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Ghosts Chance Inf4m0us 523	Posted - 2013.12.21 11:05:00 - [10] - Quote specialist weapons and the faction equipment are priceless cant obtain them anywhere else and they alow for extreme suit fittings and setups.

Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4845	Posted - 2013.12.21 11:06:00 - [11] - Quote Kasote Denzara wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Specialized weapons cost double the LP and ISK. Specialized weapons also use CPU and PG of Advanced weapons. You get what you pay for. So? That doesn't change the fact that LP rewards are low. It's not like these weapons are a great deal or something, they cost double. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 973	Posted - 2013.12.21 11:09:00 - [12] - Quote Expected Payout = Sum(Probablity to win match NPayout for winning match N)(scale factor of loyalty level) Im not putting my foot in FW. It-¦s not good even if you win every match. CCP has miserably failed at understanding a game mode needs incentive to play. Look at this also Cat Merc: https://twitter.com/RegnerBA/status/408964220324032512 Three days before FW 2.0 is released, CCP SoxFour changes the FW rewards to be better. How ****** was it before in that case? Doesnt matter in Dust 514: PC. FW Standing. Tanking Type. Other mods than DMG or HP. Does matter in Dust 514: Rifles.
Bunny Demon Scions of Athra 31	Posted - 2013.12.21 11:12:00 - [13] - Quote jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Kasote Denzara wrote: Meh. You can't get specialized weapons without LP, so there's that. You also have (near) zero impact on New Eden outside of FW. Specialized weapons cost double the LP and ISK. LP payouts should be at least 1,000 at level 1, increasing by around 500 per level, and losing LP at level 1 should be 350 or 400 or something I would go for this because I could run proto every game then..... But so could everyone else so your values may be a bit high Donate isk to the guy above ^ (Or me, whichever you prefer)
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 6548	Posted - 2013.12.21 11:12:00 - [14] - Quote Ghosts Chance wrote: specialist weapons and the faction equipment are priceless cant obtain them anywhere else and they alow for extreme suit fittings and setups. The faction equipment is outperformed by variants you can buy normally, for the most part. Specialist weapons can easily be replaced by an ADV version for the same fittings and only marginally less damage. Level 6 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution Gallente FW - 'Turalyon'
Kasote Denzara A Vulture 1447	Posted - 2013.12.21 11:13:00 - [15] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: So? That doesn't change the fact that LP rewards are low. It's not like these weapons are a great deal or something, they cost double. I'm not arguing with you about the LP payouts. I've been supportive of slightly higher rewards, so do please drop the hostility towards me. I will, however, argue with you about "great deals" since I brought up CPU and PG. I'll go out of my way and mention the Commando suit. This suit at an advanced level has one high, one low, one equipment, two lights. If you've never ran the Commando, PG and CPU management is important. It's like a logistic suit except extremely restrictive on what could be ran. Unlike the logistic suits, however, ever slot in the Commando is important and dictate a style of play entirely on a higher scale. Instead of running a Duvolle and pretty much ** myself, I can run a specialized Duvolle and be able to use the remaining CPU and PG towards either my modules or my other light, which is also extremely important on the Commando. I'll use another example, this one not including me. (How shocking.) Let's talk about newer players. Let's face it: They're not going to immediately know to max out their cores. Maybe this guy spent nearly all his SP on getting operation V, prof. III Plasma Rifle. (Stupid as all hell move, but whatever.) Not only does that guy not have the extra PG and CPU that was gotten from cores, but his entire fitting is structured around a Plasma Rifle and whatever suit he chose to dump the rest in. You're going to stand there and tell me that a prototype weapon that has the CPU and PG of an advanced weapon would not** be ideal to this guy? "Go ahead and dual tank. My Commando dual ganks." -Kasote Denzara The Traitor, in the name of "freedom".
Ghosts Chance Inf4m0us 523	Posted - 2013.12.21 11:16:00 - [16] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Ghosts Chance wrote: specialist weapons and the faction equipment are priceless cant obtain them anywhere else and they alow for extreme suit fittings and setups. The faction equipment is outperformed by variants you can buy normally, for the most part. Specialist weapons can easily be replaced by an ADV version for the same fittings and only marginally less damage. so regular nanite injectors have a 100% res? a 90 rep per second core repair? the uplinks are lackluster ill give you that. and the anti-scout scanner has double the visability. so aside from the uplinks your wrong.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4845	Posted - 2013.12.21 11:18:00 - [17] - Quote Ghosts Chance wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Ghosts Chance wrote: specialist weapons and the faction equipment are priceless cant obtain them anywhere else and they alow for extreme suit fittings and setups. The faction equipment is outperformed by variants you can buy normally, for the most part. Specialist weapons can easily be replaced by an ADV version for the same fittings and only marginally less damage. so regular nanite injectors have a 100% res? a 90 rep per second core repair? the uplinks are lackluster ill give you that. and the anti-scout scanner has double the visability. so aside from the uplinks your wrong. Proto nanite injectors do 100%. Focused Core Repair tool does 175 hp/s. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4845	Posted - 2013.12.21 11:22:00 - [18] - Quote Kasote Denzara wrote: Cat Merc wrote: So? That doesn't change the fact that LP rewards are low. It's not like these weapons are a great deal or something, they cost double. I'm not arguing with you about the LP payouts. I've been supportive of slightly higher rewards, so do please drop the hostility towards me. I will, however, argue with you about "great deals" since I brought up CPU and PG. I'll go out of my way and mention the Commando suit. This suit at an advanced level has one high, one low, one equipment, two lights. If you've never ran the Commando, PG and CPU management is important. It's like a logistic suit except extremely restrictive on what could be ran. Unlike the logistic suits, however, ever slot in the Commando is important and dictate a style of play entirely on a higher scale. Instead of running a Duvolle and pretty much ** myself, I can run a specialized Duvolle and be able to use the remaining CPU and PG towards either my modules or my other light, which is also extremely important on the Commando. I'll use another example, this one not including me. (How shocking.) Let's talk about newer players. Let's face it: They're not going to immediately know to max out their cores. Maybe this guy spent nearly all his SP on getting operation V, prof. III Plasma Rifle. (Stupid as all hell move, but whatever.) Not only does that guy not have the extra PG and CPU that was gotten from cores, but his entire fitting is structured around a Plasma Rifle and whatever suit he chose to dump the rest in. You're going to stand there and tell me that a prototype weapon that has the CPU and PG of an advanced weapon would not be ideal to this guy? That's true, but those are a few edge cases where this stuff is useful. Most other times I just say ** it and run a GEK, because it's much cheaper, and the damage increase to a duvolle is only marginal. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
jerrmy12 kahoalii The dyst0pian Corporation Zero-Day 165	Posted - 2013.12.21 11:25:00 - [19] - Quote Bunny Demon wrote: jerrmy12 kahoalii wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Kasote Denzara wrote: Meh. You can't get specialized weapons without LP, so there's that. You also have (near) zero impact on New Eden outside of FW. Specialized weapons cost double the LP and ISK. LP payouts should be at least 1,000 at level 1, increasing by around 500 per level, and losing LP at level 1 should be 350 or 400 or something I would go for this because I could run proto every game then..... But so could everyone else so your values may be a bit high everyone spams proto logi's, and 1,000 lp is like 3 fittings, besides you HAVE to win, and people who are rich spam proto, this would make the game balanced no more STD VS proto matches. risk=reward recuruit link 5 to 11 mil isk per 100k recuruit
Ghosts Chance Inf4m0us 523	Posted - 2013.12.21 11:29:00 - [20] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Ghosts Chance wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Ghosts Chance wrote: specialist weapons and the faction equipment are priceless cant obtain them anywhere else and they alow for extreme suit fittings and setups. The faction equipment is outperformed by variants you can buy normally, for the most part. Specialist weapons can easily be replaced by an ADV version for the same fittings and only marginally less damage. so regular nanite injectors have a 100% res? a 90 rep per second core repair? the uplinks are lackluster ill give you that. and the anti-scout scanner has double the visability. so aside from the uplinks your wrong. Proto nanite injectors do 100%. Focused Core Repair tool does 175 hp/s. proto injectors do 80% the repper is a better version of a different varient of repair tool :P so while the focused repairs more, the republic one is better in other areas plus FW was made with the market in mind. and those exclusive items + salvage from the match will INCREASE the isk payout per match. so while right NOW its not worth it to run proto (obviously) once the market launches (SOONtm) the isk generation from FW will go WAY up

Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 6552	Posted - 2013.12.21 11:39:00 - [21] - Quote Ghosts Chance wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Ghosts Chance wrote: specialist weapons and the faction equipment are priceless cant obtain them anywhere else and they alow for extreme suit fittings and setups. The faction equipment is outperformed by variants you can buy normally, for the most part. Specialist weapons can easily be replaced by an ADV version for the same fittings and only marginally less damage. so regular nanite injectors have a 100% res? a 90 rep per second core repair? the uplinks are lackluster ill give you that. and the anti-scout scanner has double the visability. so aside from the uplinks your wrong. 90 rep per second core repair - check, six kin triage. Duvolle quantum > the federation scanner. Nanite injectors with 100%, I'll give you that. But barely, seeing as that 20% will rarely make a difference. The nanohives are also pointless because ammo is plentiful with semidecent hives anyway. And, as you said, the uplinks are lacklustre. Level 6 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution Gallente FW - 'Turalyon'
Ghosts Chance Inf4m0us 523	Posted - 2013.12.21 11:41:00 - [22] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Ghosts Chance wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Ghosts Chance wrote: specialist weapons and the faction equipment are priceless cant obtain them anywhere else and they alow for extreme suit fittings and setups. The faction equipment is outperformed by variants you can buy normally, for the most part. Specialist weapons can easily be replaced by an ADV version for the same fittings and only marginally less damage. so regular nanite injectors have a 100% res? a 90 rep per second core repair? the uplinks are lackluster ill give you that. and the anti-scout scanner has double the visability. so aside from the uplinks your wrong. 90 rep per second core repair - check, six kin triage. Duvolle quantum > the federation scanner. Nanite injectors with 100%, I'll give you that. But barely, seeing as that 20% will rarely make a difference. The nanohives are also pointless because ammo is plentiful with semidecent hives anyway. And, as you said, the uplinks are lacklustre. plus FW was made with the market in mind. and those exclusive items + salvage from the match will INCREASE the isk payout per match. so while right NOW its not worth it to run proto (obviously) once the market launches (SOONtm) the isk generation from FW will go WAY up by your own numbers this will double to tripple the FW ISK profits over pub matches depending on market values (since popular AUR gear will also be more valuble then regular isk gear due to reduced skill requirements, meaning that republic freedom will sell for more then the isk freedom :P by YOUR numbers FW pays out on average the same as a pub match.... and nobody uses proto there right?
FEELIN FROGGY Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 8	Posted - 2013.12.21 12:32:00 - [23] - Quote I can't even believe you are complaining about this. Caldari have it 10x as hard as you stinky Frogs. My main is still only lvl 2 Caldari after doing dozens and dozens of matches. Know why, because we hardly ever fuking win, thus never gain standing. All you Frogs have the easy mode on cruise control because there are so damn many of you spamming FW and so few Caldari. You could AFK all the time and make more LP than I ever will actually trying to win a game. STFU you little bitchh! Destroy the Frogs . . . from within.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 762	Posted - 2013.12.21 13:01:00 - [24] - Quote FEELIN FROGGY wrote: I can't even believe you are complaining about this. Caldari have it 10x as hard as you stinky Frogs. My main is still only lvl 2 Caldari after doing dozens and dozens of matches. Know why, because we hardly ever fuking win, thus never gain standing. All you Frogs have the easy mode on cruise control because there are so damn many of you spamming FW and so few Caldari. You could AFK all the time and make more LP than I ever will actually trying to win a game. STFU you little bitchh! He brings up a good point in an obtuse way (p.s. Totally support griefing Gallente, why should they be immune). One of the bigger issues is that it's all or none and payouts have little to nothing to do with your contribution. I could AFK in Gallente FW for a single day and gain substantially more LP and standings than I have in the past week of playing hard and dying in Amarr FW. The worst blueberry on the winning team who goes 1/15 with 50 WP gets 10x the benefits of the best player on the losing side who goes 12/10 with 2000 WP (been there done that). Same with someone who AFK'd. That's wrong. No question that winning should get you a bigger payout, but all or nothing is BS and is only going to make FW more unbalanced because people are bailing out (on Caldari especially) in droves. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor!
Ghosts Chance Inf4m0us 525	Posted - 2013.12.21 13:27:00 - [25] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: FEELIN FROGGY wrote: I can't even believe you are complaining about this. Caldari have it 10x as hard as you stinky Frogs. My main is still only lvl 2 Caldari after doing dozens and dozens of matches. Know why, because we hardly ever fuking win, thus never gain standing. All you Frogs have the easy mode on cruise control because there are so damn many of you spamming FW and so few Caldari. You could AFK all the time and make more LP than I ever will actually trying to win a game. STFU you little bitchh! He brings up a good point in an obtuse way (p.s. Totally support griefing Gallente, why should they be immune). One of the bigger issues is that it's all or none and payouts have little to nothing to do with your contribution. I could AFK in Gallente FW for a single day and gain substantially more LP and standings than I have in the past week of playing hard and dying in Amarr FW. The worst blueberry on the winning team who goes 1/15 with 50 WP gets 10x the benefits of the best player on the losing side who goes 12/10 with 2000 WP (been there done that). Same with someone who AFK'd. That's wrong. No question that winning should get you a bigger payout, but all or nothing is BS and is only going to make FW more unbalanced because people are bailing out (on Caldari especially) in droves. win loss ratio kinda defeats that 1 AFK player loweres the chance of a win. so you will lose more games AFKing then if you were playing. lowering your LP gain. a good squad with a high win loss ratio in FW will make substantially more playing then AFKing. its a higher level of play in FW, winning MEANS something, and people will play hard for the win as a result, right now without the market its lackluster, but once the market comes the payouts from wins and salvage will STILL pay out more isk then pub matches. for instance, as amaar against proto stomping minmatar you will make substantial isk in salvage alone, alowing you to run decent gear without draining your wallet without a win. and those wins will be substatially more profitable as amaar then on the oposit side as minmatar due to reduced availability of amaar LP items, their ISK values will be ALOT higher and so much more profit will be made off wins for amaar then minmatar. it sucks right now because there is no market, but once the market comes out the profit for FW will pay for itself even on losing teams.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4847	Posted - 2013.12.21 14:06:00 - [26] - Quote FEELIN FROGGY wrote: I can't even believe you are complaining about this. Caldari have it 10x as hard as you stinky Frogs. My main is still only lvl 2 Caldari after doing dozens and dozens of matches. Know why, because we hardly ever fuking win, thus never gain standing. All you Frogs have the easy mode on cruise control because there are so damn many of you spamming FW and so few Caldari. You could AFK all the time and make more LP than I ever will actually trying to win a game. STFU you little bitchh! Butthurt much? Try actually winning you ****. This isn't about Caldari vs Gallente. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 762	Posted - 2013.12.21 14:08:00 - [27] - Quote You are assuming that if you AFK in Gallente FW you are more likely to lose than if you play well in Caldari. That assumption is incorrect. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor!
Ghosts Chance Inf4m0us 525	Posted - 2013.12.21 14:10:00 - [28] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: You are assuming that if you AFK in Gallente FW you are more likely to lose than if you play well in Caldari. That assumption is incorrect. me and my squad did caldari and win 80% of our games.... its not as hard to win as you think, it just requires that you bring friends.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4847	Posted - 2013.12.21 14:12:00 - [29] - Quote Ghosts Chance wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: You are assuming that if you AFK in Gallente FW you are more likely to lose than if you play well in Caldari. That assumption is incorrect. me and my squad did caldari and win 80% of our games.... its not as hard to win as you think, it just requires that you bring friends. Or not suck. I wonder how many that complain about blueberries in Caldari FW are actually bad themselves. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 762	Posted - 2013.12.21 14:28:00 - [30] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Ghosts Chance wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: You are assuming that if you AFK in Gallente FW you are more likely to lose than if you play well in Caldari. That assumption is incorrect. me and my squad did caldari and win 80% of our games.... its not as hard to win as you think, it just requires that you bring friends. Or not suck. I wonder how many that complain about blueberries in Caldari FW are actually bad themselves. Spin it all you want, but when the NF squads decided they needed to start qsynching that's all the proof I needed that it wasn't just my bad luck and lack of l33t skillz. Again, if 7 people (I have pics) on my team end up with 0 WP and the #4 player on the board is a shotgun/revive awoxer not much can be done about that. (King kobrah was in my squad, does he need to git gud?) I have no doubt there are bad players complaining but that doesn't mean the system isn't flawed. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor!

Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4848	Posted - 2013.12.21 14:32:00 - [31] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Ghosts Chance wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: You are assuming that if you AFK in Gallente FW you are more likely to lose than if you play well in Caldari. That assumption is incorrect. me and my squad did caldari and win 80% of our games.... its not as hard to win as you think, it just requires that you bring friends. Or not suck. I wonder how many that complain about blueberries in Caldari FW are actually bad themselves. Spin it all you want, but when the NF squads decided they needed to start qsynching that's all the proof I needed that it wasn't just my bad luck and lack of l33t skillz. Again, if 7 people (I have pics) on my team end up with 0 WP and the #4 player on the board is a shotgun/revive awoxer not much can be done about that. (King kobrah was in my squad, does he need to git gud?) I have no doubt there are bad players complaining but that doesn't mean the system isn't flawed. Not sure about the system flawed part. What makes you think that? From what I'm seeing, there are simply better Gallente players. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Ghosts Chance Inf4m0us 525	Posted - 2013.12.21 14:34:00 - [32] - Quote im moving back over to winmatar soon, not becuase of jumping on the bandwagon, but because everything i run is minmatar, suits, guns, explosives, all of it.... i want dem specialist combat rifles... OP ADV assault incoming
Sgt Kirk SyNergy Gaming EoN. 3731	Posted - 2013.12.21 14:36:00 - [33] - Quote Hey Wang or Frame, you see this crap?
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 762	Posted - 2013.12.21 14:38:00 - [34] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Ghosts Chance wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: You are assuming that if you AFK in Gallente FW you are more likely to lose than if you play well in Caldari. That assumption is incorrect. me and my squad did caldari and win 80% of our games.... its not as hard to win as you think, it just requires that you bring friends. Or not suck. I wonder how many that complain about blueberries in Caldari FW are actually bad themselves. Spin it all you want, but when the NF squads decided they needed to start qsynching that's all the proof I needed that it wasn't just my bad luck and lack of l33t skillz. Again, if 7 people (I have pics) on my team end up with 0 WP and the #4 player on the board is a shotgun/revive awoxer not much can be done about that. (King kobrah was in my squad, does he need to git gud?) I have no doubt there are bad players complaining but that doesn't mean the system isn't flawed. Not sure about the system flawed part. What makes you think that? From what I'm seeing, there are simply better Gallente players. Whatever "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor!
Izlare Lenix FREE AGENTS LP 47	Posted - 2013.12.21 14:44:00 - [35] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Ghosts Chance wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: You are assuming that if you AFK in Gallente FW you are more likely to lose than if you play well in Caldari. That assumption is incorrect. me and my squad did caldari and win 80% of our games.... its not as hard to win as you think, it just requires that you bring friends. Or not suck. I wonder how many that complain about blueberries in Caldari FW are actually bad themselves. Spin it all you want, but when the NF squads decided they needed to start qsynching that's all the proof I needed that it wasn't just my bad luck and lack of l33t skillz. Again, if 7 people (I have pics) on my team end up with 0 WP and the #4 player on the board is a shotgun/revive awoxer not much can be done about that. (King kobrah was in my squad, does he need to git gud?) I have no doubt there are bad players complaining but that doesn't mean the system isn't flawed. Not sure about the system flawed part. What makes you think that? From what I'm seeing, there are simply better Gallente players. It is not that all the Gallente are better players. They have more players. WAY more players. And so yes buy default they have a larger pool of better players and more players with high SP than the Caldari do. The main problem with the Caldari side is the massive amount of noobs and randoms that get thrown into a cal match because the other three races were already filled up. So even when the few good Caldari work together, we often still lose because the rest of our team is so awful. There is not much a six man squad can do on the Caldari side when the rest of the team gets you cloned or they hide in the red line/afk in the MCC.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4850	Posted - 2013.12.21 14:50:00 - [36] - Quote Izlare Lenix wrote: It is not that all the Gallente are better players. They have more players. WAY more players. And so yes buy default they have a larger pool of better players and more players with high SP than the Caldari do. The main problem with the Caldari side is the massive amount of noobs and randoms that get thrown into a cal match because the other three races were already filled up. So even when the few good Caldari work together, we often still lose because the rest of our team is so awful. There is not much a six man squad can do on the Caldari side when the rest of the team gets you cloned or they hide in the red line/afk in the MCC. huh... That's an interesting analysis. Though I'm pretty sure Caldari are the most popular race. They are in EVE so I wonder why it would be different in Dust. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Benjamin Ciscko The Generals General Tso's Alliance 412	Posted - 2013.12.21 14:59:00 - [37] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Salvage I get about 90,000 isk salvage on average, more if blow up some tanks. And why are you buying the aurum versions, specialist fitting is where its at! I run MinMatar and we crush everyone so all I get is militia crap in salvage occasionally ADV once in a blue moon PRO, and on top of that it is all Amarr so I can not even use half of it and I once destroyed a tank at least 3 times maybe more and my squad got it in salvage not me who put the expensive assets on the line to destroy it. Tanker/Assault Can I have my ADV and PRO tanks now (Honeyed Lamb enroute).
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 764	Posted - 2013.12.21 15:00:00 - [38] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Izlare Lenix wrote: It is not that all the Gallente are better players. They have more players. WAY more players. And so yes buy default they have a larger pool of better players and more players with high SP than the Caldari do. The main problem with the Caldari side is the massive amount of noobs and randoms that get thrown into a cal match because the other three races were already filled up. So even when the few good Caldari work together, we often still lose because the rest of our team is so awful. There is not much a six man squad can do on the Caldari side when the rest of the team gets you cloned or they hide in the red line/afk in the MCC. huh... That's an interesting analysis. Though I'm pretty sure Caldari are the most popular race. They are in EVE so I wonder why it would be different in Dust. Cuz herp derp FREEEEDOOOMM! Also: really cat? You have not seen any of the 58 threads detailing this exact population disparity this week? (Marauder would also like to have a word with you.) "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor!
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4851	Posted - 2013.12.21 15:04:00 - [39] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Izlare Lenix wrote: It is not that all the Gallente are better players. They have more players. WAY more players. And so yes buy default they have a larger pool of better players and more players with high SP than the Caldari do. The main problem with the Caldari side is the massive amount of noobs and randoms that get thrown into a cal match because the other three races were already filled up. So even when the few good Caldari work together, we often still lose because the rest of our team is so awful. There is not much a six man squad can do on the Caldari side when the rest of the team gets you cloned or they hide in the red line/afk in the MCC. huh... That's an interesting analysis. Though I'm pretty sure Caldari are the most popular race. They are in EVE so I wonder why it would be different in Dust. Cuz herp derp FREEEEDOOOMM! Also: really cat? You have not seen any of the 58 threads detailing this exact population disparity this week? (Marauder would also like to have a word with you.) Didn't watch this space for a while, I had some issues IRL with my equipment and stuff, had to fix it all. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 2718	Posted - 2013.12.21 15:13:00 - [40] - Quote Why do so many people think FW should be entirely viable on its own? Put an Isk price on any of the unique LP items then we'll talk. No.

John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 764	Posted - 2013.12.21 15:16:00 - [41] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Izlare Lenix wrote: It is not that all the Gallente are better players. They have more players. WAY more players. And so yes buy default they have a larger pool of better players and more players with high SP than the Caldari do. The main problem with the Caldari side is the massive amount of noobs and randoms that get thrown into a cal match because the other three races were already filled up. So even when the few good Caldari work together, we often still lose because the rest of our team is so awful. There is not much a six man squad can do on the Caldari side when the rest of the team gets you cloned or they hide in the red line/afk in the MCC. huh... That's an interesting analysis. Though I'm pretty sure Caldari are the most popular race. They are in EVE so I wonder why it would be different in Dust. Cuz herp derp FREEEEDOOOMM! Also: really cat? You have not seen any of the 58 threads detailing this exact population disparity this week? (Marauder would also like to have a word with you.) Didn't watch this space for a while, I had some issues IRL with my equipment and stuff, had to fix it all. That's what you get for playing with the cords! Bad kitty! (Go ahead and catch up and the discussion can continue later once you are up to speed) "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor!
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4852	Posted - 2013.12.21 15:16:00 - [42] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: Why do so many people think FW should be entirely viable on its own? Put an Isk price on any of the unique LP items then we'll talk. Because it should. After 200 matches of grinding to get any decent reward, it should be enough to be sustainable. If not then, why waste my time? I will just run pub matches and buy FW gear from suckers in the market Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4852	Posted - 2013.12.21 15:17:00 - [43] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Cat Merc wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Izlare Lenix wrote: It is not that all the Gallente are better players. They have more players. WAY more players. And so yes buy default they have a larger pool of better players and more players with high SP than the Caldari do. The main problem with the Caldari side is the massive amount of noobs and randoms that get thrown into a cal match because the other three races were already filled up. So even when the few good Caldari work together, we often still lose because the rest of our team is so awful. There is not much a six man squad can do on the Caldari side when the rest of the team gets you cloned or they hide in the red line/afk in the MCC. huh... That's an interesting analysis. Though I'm pretty sure Caldari are the most popular race. They are in EVE so I wonder why it would be different in Dust. Cuz herp derp FREEEEDOOOMM! Also: really cat? You have not seen any of the 58 threads detailing this exact population disparity this week? (Marauder would also like to have a word with you.) Didn't watch this space for a while, I had some issues IRL with my equipment and stuff, had to fix it all. That's what you get for playing with the cords! Bad kitty! (Go ahead and catch up and the discussion can continue later once you are up to speed) Can you direct me to some threads? Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 764	Posted - 2013.12.21 15:19:00 - [44] - Quote I'll be glad to... later. Pulled a 24hr shift IRL myself, I have no idea why I'm not in bed yet. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor!
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4852	Posted - 2013.12.21 15:27:00 - [45] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: I'll be glad to... later. Pulled a 24hr shift IRL myself, I have no idea why I'm not in bed yet. lol Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 2409	Posted - 2013.12.21 15:36:00 - [46] - Quote Kasote Denzara wrote: Cat Merc wrote: So? That doesn't change the fact that LP rewards are low. It's not like these weapons are a great deal or something, they cost double. I'm not arguing with you about the LP payouts. I've been supportive of slightly higher rewards, so do please drop the hostility towards me. I will, however, argue with you about "great deals" since I brought up CPU and PG. I'll go out of my way and mention the Commando suit. This suit at an advanced level has one high, one low, one equipment, two lights. If you've never ran the Commando, PG and CPU management is important. It's like a logistic suit except extremely restrictive on what could be ran. Unlike the logistic suits, however, ever slot in the Commando is important and dictate a style of play entirely on a higher scale. Instead of running a Duvolle and pretty much ** myself, I can run a specialized Duvolle and be able to use the remaining CPU and PG towards either my modules or my other light, which is also extremely important on the Commando. I'll use another example, this one not including me. (How shocking.) Let's talk about newer players. Let's face it: They're not going to immediately know to max out their cores. Maybe this guy spent nearly all his SP on getting operation V, prof. III Plasma Rifle. (Stupid as all hell move, but whatever.) Not only does that guy not have the extra PG and CPU that was gotten from cores, but his entire fitting is structured around a Plasma Rifle and whatever suit he chose to dump the rest in. You're going to stand there and tell me that a prototype weapon that has the CPU and PG of an advanced weapon would not** be ideal to this guy? I think people tend to get hostile when they are trying to prove a point that is painfully obvious and someone responds with, "but I like the pretty lights". Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.
Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 541	Posted - 2013.12.21 16:06:00 - [47] - Quote FW payouts are probably structured with an eye I towards the coming player market. The equation changes a bit when you can sell / trade salvage.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 524	Posted - 2013.12.21 16:20:00 - [48] - Quote the isk cost in the LP store is lame.. If people are already investing their ISK into FW with assets why does it cost more to utilize the rewards of your efforts and investment. ISK sinks are cool, I'm all for them as this entire game was built around the premise. But that ISK cost along with Loyalty Points hurts new players and middle of the road players... where it usually won't hurt the vets ever, keeping the poor down, or making them have to save just to actually use the rewards after they just saved ISK for hour's to play FW is just... Please CCP start making new accounts and you get no ISK from developer means... and all of you try and make it in the DUST world.. Unless your a deadeye or very good with giving minimal input's with Aim assist, then the game is out of reach for a lot of people. We need to start keeping all those New accounts created every day the numbers have been the most encouraging thing though these last patches, you just need some attention on keeping them around a bit longer.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4857	Posted - 2013.12.21 16:24:00 - [49] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: FW payouts are probably structured with an eye I towards the coming player market. The equation changes a bit when you can sell / trade salvage. Judging from EVE, +10%. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Heinrich Jagerblitzen D3LTA FORC3 1262	Posted - 2013.12.21 17:03:00 - [50] - Quote Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: FW payouts are probably structured with an eye I towards the coming player market. The equation changes a bit when you can sell / trade salvage. Probably? Probably??? Of course they're geared towards the existence of a player market. There is no question about this. The problem is that we dont have a player market. I also have no idea when we'll get one. It's a daunting task that CCP has been overly confident about delivering time and time again all the way up to the point where they sit down and look at it and go "holy ****" and than move on to other lower hanging fruit. This is exactly why I urged them not to release the LP store without it, or at the very least, to fix the utterly broken payout scheme as a short-term holdover. They didnt, and this is exactly Cat Merc is absolutely correct in his assessment. We can only evaluate features in the present, as they stand today. "But ________ is coming next!" should never be justification for leaving a broken system in the game that causes players to get burnt out while they wait for a feature with no guaranteed delivery date in sight. The payouts need to be increased, to allow for sustainability, even if "sustainable" means running an occasional match to get the small amount of isk needed to shop in the LP store. Occasional pub matches mixed in is more than fine, but LP should still buy mercs most of the gear they need to keep fighting in FW. Right now, this just isn't the case. We're asked to grind 200 matches to get to a payout level that's even remotely palatable even in winning conditions, which are of course never guaranteed. Any system that asks players to invest in 200 matches but isn't giving them the resources they need to get that far without going bankrupt is broken. I stand firmly with the OP here. CCP can always revert the temporary buffs when they do release the market, whenever that occurs, and rely on salvage and specialist items to replace that value. But I have no idea when that will occur, its not something we should count on, and so the system needs a fix regardless of future plans.

Heinrich Jagerblitzen D3LTA FORC3 1262	Posted - 2013.12.21 17:09:00 - [51] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Please CCP start making new accounts and you get no ISK from developer means... and all of you try and make it in the DUST world.. Unless your a deadeye or very good with giving minimal input's with Aim assist, then the game is out of reach for a lot of people. We need to start keeping all those New accounts created every day the numbers have been the most encouraging thing though these last patches, you just need some attention on keeping them around a bit longer. All CCP characters start as scratch noobs and are NOT given any developer isk. This is in accordance with strict limitations on disrupting the sandbox, and is enforced by the Internal Affairs department. If you see a dev running around in proto gear, even during an event, its because he's sat down and invested the hours into this game across many months to both skill into the gear and earn the isk needed to cover his losses.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4858	Posted - 2013.12.21 17:22:00 - [52] - Quote Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote: Jaysyn Larrisen wrote: FW payouts are probably structured with an eye I towards the coming player market. The equation changes a bit when you can sell / trade salvage. Probably? Probably??? Of course they're geared towards the existence of a player market. There is no question about this. The problem is that we dont have a player market. I also have no idea when we'll get one. It's a daunting task that CCP has been overly confident about delivering time and time again all the way up to the point where they sit down and look at it and go "holy ****" and than move on to other lower hanging fruit. This is exactly why I urged them not to release the LP store without it, or at the very least, to fix the utterly broken payout scheme as a short-term holdover. They didnt, and this is exactly Cat Merc is absolutely correct in his assessment. We can only evaluate features in the present, as they stand today. "But ________ is coming next!" should never be justification for leaving a broken system in the game that causes players to get burnt out while they wait for a feature with no guaranteed delivery date in sight. The payouts need to be increased, to allow for sustainability, even if "sustainable" means running an occasional match to get the small amount of isk needed to shop in the LP store. Occasional pub matches mixed in is more than fine, but LP should still buy mercs most of the gear they need to keep fighting in FW. Right now, this just isn't the case. We're asked to grind 200 matches to get to a payout level that's even remotely palatable even in winning conditions, which are of course never guaranteed. Any system that asks players to invest in 200 matches but isn't giving them the resources they need to get that far without going bankrupt is broken. I stand firmly with the OP here. CCP can always revert the temporary buffs when they do release the market, whenever that occurs, and rely on salvage and specialist items to replace that value. But I have no idea when that will occur, its not something we should count on, and so the system needs a fix regardless of future plans. I approve of this product and/or service. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 2411	Posted - 2013.12.21 17:37:00 - [53] - Quote Bethhy wrote: the isk cost in the LP store is lame.. If people are already investing their ISK into FW with assets why does it cost more to utilize the rewards of your efforts and investment. ISK sinks are cool, I'm all for them as this entire game was built around the premise. But that ISK cost along with Loyalty Points hurts new players and middle of the road players... where it usually won't hurt the vets ever, keeping the poor down, or making them have to save just to actually use the rewards after they just saved ISK for hour's to play FW is just... This is exactly the problem with ISK sinks. Especially when you consider that hiding in a redline in a pub match rewards a player more than rocking out at a point and possibly losing 5-10 suits. In other words take away the 10.0 KDR gods of Dust and it's not possible to build an impressive wallet by using mid and high level gear to win in pub matches. It's very apparent that a huge chunk of the player base has spent months grinding away solo for ISK and SP and it's killed team play. The ISK payout model is broken on all levels. To me it's the biggest problem in Dust at the moment. I believe the answer could be to have current ISK payouts in pubs DOUBLED for the winning side. Then increase the LP rewards a bit like many have proposed. There also needs to be some incentive given for getting out of an NPC corp. Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 2413	Posted - 2013.12.21 17:51:00 - [54] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Bethhy wrote: the isk cost in the LP store is lame.. If people are already investing their ISK into FW with assets why does it cost more to utilize the rewards of your efforts and investment. ISK sinks are cool, I'm all for them as this entire game was built around the premise. But that ISK cost along with Loyalty Points hurts new players and middle of the road players... where it usually won't hurt the vets ever, keeping the poor down, or making them have to save just to actually use the rewards after they just saved ISK for hour's to play FW is just... This is exactly the problem with ISK sinks. Especially when you consider that hiding in a redline in a pub match rewards a player more than rocking out at a point and possibly losing 5-10 suits. In other words take away the 10.0 KDR gods of Dust and it's not possible to build an impressive wallet by using mid and high level gear to win in pub matches. It's very apparent that a huge chunk of the player base has spent months grinding away solo for ISK and SP and it's killed team play. The ISK payout model is broken on all levels. To me it's the biggest problem in Dust at the moment. I believe the answer could be to have current ISK payouts in pubs DOUBLED for the winning side. Then increase the LP rewards a bit like many have proposed. There also needs to be some incentive given for getting out of an NPC corp. I'd like to add WHY I think asking players to grind in standard gear 90% of the time is bad. - this game is a freakin grind - gotta get that SP to get that awesome thing - then realize that you can only use that awesome thing once in a blue moon or go bankrupt My biggest problem with this is that you can't expect lower skilled and mid level players to stick with that scenario long term. I don't think any player could expect for 0-17 to lead to profit, but currently 10-5 in ADV gear isn't sustainable in pubs. We are pissed about FW payouts, but when compounded with the screwed up incentives in pubs it's BRUTAL. I'll counter to any response that the results are in and the player base absolutely sucks at the game I started playing over a year ago. Remove time in battle from ISK payout formula and provide a bonus to winning team... Watch battles become fun again.
Avinash Decker Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 90	Posted - 2013.12.21 19:35:00 - [55] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: So, I lost all my motivation to play FW. Gallente are kicking ass, so it's not like I'll be helping my faction by playing, so the only thing left for me would be the reward. LP items are basically normal items with lowered skill requirements, but as someone who has maxed almost all the gear he uses, I need them to have good time --> reward investment (as in, the least amount of matches to gain the most amount of items). And that's where payments fall apart. Let's look at the Republic Freedom Mass Driver. ISK cost: 7,083 LP cost: 100 LP Now the Freedom Mass Driver: ISK cost: 47,220 So in order to figure out the LP value, we subtract the ISK cost from the Freedom Mass Drive by the ISK cost of the Republic one, then divide the result with the LP cost. (47,220 - 7,083) / 100 = 401 ISK per LP Now, in order to get the ISK reward per match, we multiply the LP we get per match by the ISK value of LP: You get 659 LP at level 10 if you win, so: 401 * 659 = 264,259 ISK Provided by Arkena: 130726 ISK at level 0 130726 ISK at level 1 140350 ISK at level 2 150375 ISK at level 3 161603 ISK at level 4 186064 ISK at level 5 199297 ISK at level 6 214134 ISK at level 7 229372 ISK at level 8 246214 ISK at level 9 264259 ISK at level 10 Seems legit right? You get as much ISK as public contracts at level 10 right? WRONG. LP is devalued by the fact that you can only buy specific stuff, unlike ISK that is usable to buy everywhere. But you could say that LP items are equal to Aurum items, so it evens out right? But.... Another problem: YOU GET AS MUCH ISK AS PUBLIC CONTRACTS. "Wait what? How is that a problem?" you might ask. I'll tell you why. Because FW matches require more risk. You need to WIN THE MATCH, and you need to endure TEAM KILLING AND you NEED TO GET TO LEVEL 10 JUST to have the same reward as public contracts that have no such problems. If you don't win the match, your payout is a fraction! You have to grind 200 matches before you have this payout! You have the risk of dumb teammates who don't watch their fire, and griefers. So: FW contracts: Have to win the match - Check Have to reach level 10 to have any decent reward - Check Have to endure team killing - Check = Public contracts: Have to win the match - Nope Have to reach level 10 to have any decent reward - Nope Have to endure team killing - Nope tl;dr Risk vs Reward is broken in FW and payouts need a massive increase before it's viable. Edit: Cat Merc wrote: Kasote Denzara wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Specialized weapons cost double the LP and ISK. Specialized weapons also use CPU and PG of Advanced weapons. You get what you pay for. So? That doesn't change the fact that LP rewards are low. It's not like these weapons are a great deal or something, they cost double. Specialist weapons and equipment cost double, and no, they aren't priceless, especially not once the secondary market comes in. Also added to the fact the some factions are just worse than the other and the players that exclusively play that faction will lose isk more faster and general be far less rewarded than the other that wins constantly.
Aikuchi Tomaru Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1386	Posted - 2013.12.21 20:02:00 - [56] - Quote So, I made a fitting. Caldari Assault. It's using 3 Faction items. The Proto Nanohive with reduced skill requirements, the proto Dropsuit and the Specialized RR ... I played a LOT of Caldari FW. I have about 9.000 LP and I could afford this fitting 15 times ... **** yeah. Really. This is the reason why I don't use faction items. They are extremely expensive. Especially when it's so hard to get LP for a faction. Currently I'm just saving up that stuff so I can use it in PvE. Playing a week of FW to be able to run a Proto Faction Fitting for 1 or 2 matches is definitely not worth it.
low genius The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 1032	Posted - 2013.12.21 20:09:00 - [57] - Quote tl;dr there are much better reasons to play fw than for 'gear with lower skill requirements'
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4866	Posted - 2013.12.21 20:17:00 - [58] - Quote low genius wrote: tl;dr there are much better reasons to play fw than for 'gear with lower skill requirements' Like? It needs to be a tangible reward. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
m twiggz Pradox One Proficiency V. 175	Posted - 2013.12.21 20:33:00 - [59] - Quote Factional Warefare really needs a change to the LP payout. Its sad that some players can do very well on a losing team and end up with the same reward as the people AFK'ing in the MCC. This also works both ways. If you're on a winning team and AFK'ing you get the same amount of LP as the people actually losing suits and going for the win. Given you have the same level for that particular faction, but I assume you get my point.
Aikuchi Tomaru Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1387	Posted - 2013.12.21 20:37:00 - [60] - Quote m twiggz wrote: Factional Warefare really needs a change to the LP payout. Its sad that some players can do very well on a losing team and end up with the same reward as the people AFK'ing in the MCC. This also works both ways. If you're on a winning team and AFK'ing you get the same amount of LP as the people actually losing suits and going for the win. Given you have the same level for that particular faction, but I assume you get my point. 2 things should happen: 1. Your WP should increase your LP payout 2. LP payout needs to be bigger. Something about 1200 at level 10 would be good.

Mortedeamor Wraith Shadow Guards D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1050	Posted - 2013.12.21 20:43:00 - [61] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: So, I lost all my motivation to play FW. Gallente are kicking ass, so it's not like I'll be helping my faction by playing, so the only thing left for me would be the reward. LP items are basically normal items with lowered skill requirements, but as someone who has maxed almost all the gear he uses, I need them to have good time --> reward investment (as in, the least amount of matches to gain the most amount of items). And that's where payments fall apart. Let's look at the Republic Freedom Mass Driver. ISK cost: 7,083 LP cost: 100 LP Now the Freedom Mass Driver: ISK cost: 47,220 So in order to figure out the LP value, we subtract the ISK cost from the Freedom Mass Drive by the ISK cost of the Republic one, then divide the result with the LP cost. (47,220 - 7,083) / 100 = 401 ISK per LP Now, in order to get the ISK reward per match, we multiply the LP we get per match by the ISK value of LP: You get 659 LP at level 10 if you win, so: 401 * 659 = 264,259 ISK Provided by Arkena: 130726 ISK at level 0 130726 ISK at level 1 140350 ISK at level 2 150375 ISK at level 3 161603 ISK at level 4 186064 ISK at level 5 199297 ISK at level 6 214134 ISK at level 7 229372 ISK at level 8 246214 ISK at level 9 264259 ISK at level 10 Seems legit right? You get as much ISK as public contracts at level 10 right? WRONG. LP is devalued by the fact that you can only buy specific stuff, unlike ISK that is usable to buy everywhere. But you could say that LP items are equal to Aurum items, so it evens out right? But.... Another problem: YOU GET AS MUCH ISK AS PUBLIC CONTRACTS. "Wait what? How is that a problem?" you might ask. I'll tell you why. Because FW matches require more risk. You need to WIN THE MATCH, and you need to endure TEAM KILLING AND you NEED TO GET TO LEVEL 10 JUST to have the same reward as public contracts that have no such problems. If you don't win the match, your payout is a fraction! You have to grind 200 matches before you have this payout! You have the risk of dumb teammates who don't watch their fire, and griefers. So: FW contracts: Have to win the match - Check Have to reach level 10 to have any decent reward - Check Have to endure team killing - Check = Public contracts: Have to win the match - Nope Have to reach level 10 to have any decent reward - Nope Have to endure team killing - Nope tl;dr Risk vs Reward is broken in FW and payouts need a massive increase before it's viable. Edit: Cat Merc wrote: Kasote Denzara wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Specialized weapons cost double the LP and ISK. Specialized weapons also use CPU and PG of Advanced weapons. You get what you pay for. So? That doesn't change the fact that LP rewards are low. It's not like these weapons are a great deal or something, they cost double. Specialist weapons and equipment cost double, and no, they aren't priceless, especially not once the secondary market comes in. the solution is simple....play a better game...almost 2 years now and risk vs rewards as never once been balanced or even worth it..mathematically the only smart thing to do in dust is afk..we all know this
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy 778	Posted - 2013.12.21 21:16:00 - [62] - Quote Aikuchi Tomaru wrote: m twiggz wrote: Factional Warefare really needs a change to the LP payout. Its sad that some players can do very well on a losing team and end up with the same reward as the people AFK'ing in the MCC. This also works both ways. If you're on a winning team and AFK'ing you get the same amount of LP as the people actually losing suits and going for the win. Given you have the same level for that particular faction, but I assume you get my point. 2 things should happen: 1. Your WP should increase your LP payout 2. LP payout needs to be bigger. Something about 1200 at level 10 would be good. And there needs to be some (small is fine) standings increase for the top players on the losing team, otherwise the tide of battle will never turn b/c people will keep leaving the losing side (I.e., Caldari) and set up a vicious cycle. "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu Amarr victor!
MINA Longstrike 2Shitz 1Giggle 176	Posted - 2013.12.22 02:08:00 - [63] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Izlare Lenix wrote: It is not that all the Gallente are better players. They have more players. WAY more players. And so yes buy default they have a larger pool of better players and more players with high SP than the Caldari do. The main problem with the Caldari side is the massive amount of noobs and randoms that get thrown into a cal match because the other three races were already filled up. So even when the few good Caldari work together, we often still lose because the rest of our team is so awful. There is not much a six man squad can do on the Caldari side when the rest of the team gets you cloned or they hide in the red line/afk in the MCC. huh... That's an interesting analysis. Though I'm pretty sure Caldari are the most popular race. They are in EVE so I wonder why it would be different in Dust. You're not looking at why they're so popular in eve, and that's because of the ease of use that missiles provide and how easy shield tanking is. In dust gallente are popular because of the duvolle and the gallogi, both of which were considered op for quote some time (and in many ways still are).


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