Spin it all you want, but when the NF squads decided they needed to start qsynching that's all the proof I needed that it wasn't just my bad luck and lack of l33t skillz. Again, if 7 people (I have pics) on my team end up with 0 WP and the #4 player on the board is a shotgun/revive awoxer not much can be done about that.
(King kobrah was in my squad, does he need to git gud?)

I have no doubt there are bad players complaining but that doesn't mean the system isn't flawed.

Not sure about the system flawed part.

What makes you think that?

From what I'm seeing, there are simply better Gallente players.

Not sure about the system flawed part.

What makes you think that?

From what I'm seeing, there are simply better Gallente players.

It is not that all the Gallente are better players. They have more players. WAY more players. And so yes buy default they have a larger pool of better players and more players with high SP than the Caldari do.

The main problem with the Caldari side is the massive amount of noobs and randoms that get thrown into a cal match because the other three races were already filled up.

So even when the few good Caldari work together, we often still lose because the rest of our team is so awful.

There is not much a six man squad can do on the Caldari side when the rest of the team gets you cloned or they hide in the red line/afk in the MCC.

Salvage

I get about 90,000 isk salvage on average, more if blow up some tanks.
And why are you buying the aurum versions, specialist fitting is where its at!

huh...
That's an interesting analysis.

Though I'm pretty sure Caldari are the most popular race.
They are in EVE so I wonder why it would be different in Dust.

Cuz herp derp FREEEEDOOOMM!

Also: really cat? You have not seen any of the 58 threads detailing this exact population disparity this week?
(Marauder would also like to have a word with you.)

Didn't watch this space for a while, I had some issues IRL with my equipment and stuff, had to fix it all.

Why do so many people think FW should be entirely viable on its own?

Put an Isk price on any of the unique LP items then we'll talk.

That's what you get for playing with the cords! Bad kitty!

(Go ahead and catch up and the discussion can continue later once you are up to speed)

I'll be glad to... later. Pulled a 24hr shift IRL myself, I have no idea why I'm not in bed yet.

I'm not arguing with you about the LP payouts. I've been supportive of slightly higher rewards, so do please drop the hostility towards me.

I will, however, argue with you about "great deals" since I brought up CPU and PG.

I'll go out of my way and mention the Commando suit. This suit at an advanced level has one high, one low, one equipment, two lights. If you've never ran the Commando, PG and CPU management is important. It's like a logistic suit except extremely restrictive on what could be ran. Unlike the logistic suits, however, ever slot in the Commando is important and dictate a style of play entirely on a higher scale. Instead of running a Duvolle and pretty much **** myself, I can run a specialized Duvolle and be able to use the remaining CPU and PG towards either my modules or my other light, which is also extremely important on the Commando.

I'll use another example, this one not including me. (How shocking.)

Let's talk about newer players. Let's face it: They're not going to immediately know to max out their cores. Maybe this guy spent nearly all his SP on getting operation V, prof. III Plasma Rifle. (Stupid as all hell move, but whatever.) Not only does that guy not have the extra PG and CPU that was gotten from cores, but his entire fitting is structured around a Plasma Rifle and whatever suit he chose to dump the rest in. You're going to stand there and tell me that a prototype weapon that has the CPU and PG of an advanced weapon would not be ideal to this guy?

FW payouts are probably structured with an eye I towards the coming player market. The equation changes a bit when you can sell / trade salvage.

FW payouts are probably structured with an eye I towards the coming player market. The equation changes a bit when you can sell / trade salvage.

Please CCP start making new accounts and you get no ISK from developer means... and all of you try and make it in the DUST world.. Unless your a deadeye or very good with giving minimal input's with Aim assist, then the game is out of reach for a lot of people. We need to start keeping all those New accounts created every day the numbers have been the most encouraging thing though these last patches, you just need some attention on keeping them around a bit longer.

Probably? Probably??? Of course they're geared towards the existence of a player market. There is no question about this.

The problem is that we dont have a player market. I also have no idea when we'll get one. It's a daunting task that CCP has been overly confident about delivering time and time again all the way up to the point where they sit down and look at it and go "holy ****" and than move on to other lower hanging fruit. This is exactly why I urged them not to release the LP store without it, or at the very least, to fix the utterly broken payout scheme as a short-term holdover. They didnt, and this is exactly Cat Merc is absolutely correct in his assessment.

We can only evaluate features in the present, as they stand today. "But ________ is coming next!" should never be justification for leaving a broken system in the game that causes players to get burnt out while they wait for a feature with no guaranteed delivery date in sight. The payouts need to be increased, to allow for sustainability, even if "sustainable" means running an occasional match to get the small amount of isk needed to shop in the LP store. Occasional pub matches mixed in is more than fine, but LP should still buy mercs most of the gear they need to keep fighting in FW. Right now, this just isn't the case.

We're asked to grind 200 matches to get to a payout level that's even remotely palatable even in winning conditions, which are of course never guaranteed. Any system that asks players to invest in 200 matches but isn't giving them the resources they need to get that far without going bankrupt is broken. I stand firmly with the OP here.

CCP can always revert the temporary buffs when they do release the market, whenever that occurs, and rely on salvage and specialist items to replace that value. But I have no idea when that will occur, its not something we should count on, and so the system needs a fix regardless of future plans.

the isk cost in the LP store is lame..

If people are already investing their ISK into FW with assets why does it cost more to utilize the rewards of your efforts and investment.

ISK sinks are cool, I'm all for them as this entire game was built around the premise. But that ISK cost along with Loyalty Points hurts new players and middle of the road players... where it usually won't hurt the vets ever, keeping the poor down, or making them have to save just to actually use the rewards after they just saved ISK for hour's to play FW is just...

This is exactly the problem with ISK sinks. Especially when you consider that hiding in a redline in a pub match rewards a player more than rocking out at a point and possibly losing 5-10 suits. In other words take away the 10.0 KDR gods of Dust and it's not possible to build an impressive wallet by using mid and high level gear to win in pub matches.

It's very apparent that a huge chunk of the player base has spent months grinding away solo for ISK and SP and it's killed team play. The ISK payout model is broken on all levels. To me it's the biggest problem in Dust at the moment.

I believe the answer could be to have current ISK payouts in pubs DOUBLED for the winning side. Then increase the LP rewards a bit like many have proposed. There also needs to be some incentive given for getting out of an NPC corp.

So, I lost all my motivation to play FW.
Gallente are kicking ass, so it's not like I'll be helping my faction by playing, so the only thing left for me would be the reward.

LP items are basically normal items with lowered skill requirements, but as someone who has maxed almost all the gear he uses, I need them to have good time --> reward investment (as in, the least amount of matches to gain the most amount of items).

And that's where payments fall apart.

---

Let's look at the Republic Freedom Mass Driver.
ISK cost: 7,083
LP cost: 100 LP

Now the Freedom Mass Driver:
ISK cost: 47,220

So in order to figure out the LP value, we subtract the ISK cost from the Freedom Mass Drive by the ISK cost of the Republic one, then divide the result with the LP cost.

(47,220 - 7,083) / 100 = 401 ISK per LP

---

Now, in order to get the ISK reward per match, we multiply the LP we get per match by the ISK value of LP:
You get 659 LP at level 10 if you win, so:
401 * 659 = 264,259 ISK

Provided by Arkena:
130726 ISK at level 0
130726 ISK at level 1
140350 ISK at level 2
150375 ISK at level 3
161603 ISK at level 4
186064 ISK at level 5
199297 ISK at level 6
214134 ISK at level 7
229372 ISK at level 8
246214 ISK at level 9
264259 ISK at level 10

Seems legit right?
You get as much ISK as public contracts at level 10 right?
WRONG.
LP is devalued by the fact that you can only buy specific stuff, unlike ISK that is usable to buy everywhere.
But you could say that LP items are equal to Aurum items, so it evens out right? But....

Another problem:
YOU GET AS MUCH ISK AS PUBLIC CONTRACTS.
"Wait what? How is that a problem?" you might ask.
I'll tell you why.

Because FW matches require more risk.

You need to WIN THE MATCH, and you need to endure TEAM KILLING AND you NEED TO GET TO LEVEL 10 JUST to have the same reward as public contracts that have no such problems.

If you don't win the match, your payout is a fraction!

You have to grind 200 matches before you have this payout!

You have the risk of dumb teammates who don't watch their fire, and griefers.

So:
FW contracts:
Have to win the match - Check
Have to reach level 10 to have any decent reward - Check
Have to endure team killing - Check

=

Public contracts:
Have to win the match - Nope
Have to reach level 10 to have any decent reward - Nope
Have to endure team killing - Nope



tl;dr
Risk vs Reward is broken in FW and payouts need a massive increase before it's viable.


Edit:


Specialist weapons and equipment cost double, and no, they aren't priceless, especially not once the secondary market comes in.

tl;dr

there are much better reasons to play fw than for 'gear with lower skill requirements'

Factional Warefare really needs a change to the LP payout. Its sad that some players can do very well on a losing team and end up with the same reward as the people AFK'ing in the MCC. This also works both ways. If you're on a winning team and AFK'ing you get the same amount of LP as the people actually losing suits and going for the win. Given you have the same level for that particular faction, but I assume you get my point.