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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
4841
   |
Posted - 2013.12.21 10:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, I lost all my motivation to play FW.
Gallente are kicking ass, so it's not like I'll be helping my faction by playing, so the only thing left for me would be the reward.
LP items are basically normal items with lowered skill requirements, but as someone who has maxed almost all the gear he uses, I need them to have good time --> reward investment (as in, the least amount of matches to gain the most amount of items).
And that's where payments fall apart.
Let's look at the Republic Freedom Mass Driver.
ISK cost: 7,083
LP cost: 100 LP
Now the Freedom Mass Driver:
ISK cost: 47,220
So in order to figure out the LP value, we subtract the ISK cost from the Freedom Mass Drive by the ISK cost of the Republic one, then divide the result with the LP cost.
(47,220 - 7,083) / 100 = 401 ISK per LP
Now, in order to get the ISK reward per match, we multiply the LP we get per match by the ISK value of LP:
You get 659 LP at level 10 if you win, so:
401 * 659 = 264,259 ISK
And there is also the LP booster, boosted LP payout is 823 LP:
401 * 823 = 330,023 ISK
Seems legit right?
You get as much ISK as public contracts right?
WRONG.
LP is devalued by the fact that you can only buy specific stuff, unlike ISK that is usable to buy everywhere.
But you could say that LP items are equal to Aurum items, so it evens out right? But....
Another problem:
YOU GET AS MUCH ISK AS PUBLIC CONTRACTS.
"Wait what? How is that a problem?" you might ask.
I'll tell you why.
Because FW matches require more risk.
You need to WIN THE MATCH, and you need to endure TEAM KILLING AND you NEED TO GET TO LEVEL 10 JUST to have the same reward as public contracts that have no such problems.
So:
FW contracts:
Have to win the match - Check
Have to reach level 10 to have any decent reward - Check
Have to endure team killing - Check
=
Public contracts:
Have to win the match - Nope
Have to reach level 10 to have any decent reward - Nope
Have to endure team killing - Nope
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
4842
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 10:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Try calculating without level 10 standings and a booster.
Also, you don't win every match.
I already calculated without a booster.
Plus I mentioned that the fact you don't win every match is a problem in terms of payouts.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
4845
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 11:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
Kasote Denzara wrote:Meh. You can't get specialized weapons without LP, so there's that. You also have (near) zero impact on New Eden outside of FW.
Specialized weapons cost double the LP and ISK.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
4845
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 11:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Salvage
I get about 90,000 isk salvage on average, more if blow up some tanks.
And why are you buying the aurum versions, specialist fitting is where its at!
That entirely depends on what other players bring.
They could all run BPO's, and they might as well when they realize the payout is so low.
And as I said, specialist weapons cost double the LP and ISK.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
4845
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 11:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kasote Denzara wrote:Cat Merc wrote:
Specialized weapons cost double the LP and ISK.
Specialized weapons also use CPU and PG of Advanced weapons. You get what you pay for.
So?
That doesn't change the fact that LP rewards are low.
It's not like these weapons are a great deal or something, they cost double.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
4845
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 11:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:specialist weapons and the faction equipment are priceless
cant obtain them anywhere else and they alow for extreme suit fittings and setups.
The faction equipment is outperformed by variants you can buy normally, for the most part. Specialist weapons can easily be replaced by an ADV version for the same fittings and only marginally less damage. so regular nanite injectors have a 100% res? a 90 rep per second core repair? the uplinks are lackluster ill give you that. and the anti-scout scanner has double the visability. so aside from the uplinks your wrong.
Proto nanite injectors do 100%.
Focused Core Repair tool does 175 hp/s.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
4845
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 11:22:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kasote Denzara wrote:Cat Merc wrote:
So?
That doesn't change the fact that LP rewards are low.
It's not like these weapons are a great deal or something, they cost double.
I'm not arguing with you about the LP payouts. I've been supportive of slightly higher rewards, so do please drop the hostility towards me. I will, however, argue with you about "great deals" since I brought up CPU and PG. I'll go out of my way and mention the Commando suit. This suit at an advanced level has one high, one low, one equipment, two lights. If you've never ran the Commando, PG and CPU management is important. It's like a logistic suit except extremely restrictive on what could be ran. Unlike the logistic suits, however, ever slot in the Commando is important and dictate a style of play entirely on a higher scale. Instead of running a Duvolle and pretty much **** myself, I can run a specialized Duvolle and be able to use the remaining CPU and PG towards either my modules or my other light, which is also extremely important on the Commando. I'll use another example, this one not including me. (How shocking.) Let's talk about newer players. Let's face it: They're not going to immediately know to max out their cores. Maybe this guy spent nearly all his SP on getting operation V, prof. III Plasma Rifle. (Stupid as all hell move, but whatever.) Not only does that guy not have the extra PG and CPU that was gotten from cores, but his entire fitting is structured around a Plasma Rifle and whatever suit he chose to dump the rest in. You're going to stand there and tell me that a prototype weapon that has the CPU and PG of an advanced weapon would not be ideal to this guy?
That's true, but those are a few edge cases where this stuff is useful.
Most other times I just say **** it and run a GEK, because it's much cheaper, and the damage increase to a duvolle is only marginal.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
4847
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 14:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
FEELIN FROGGY wrote:I can't even believe you are complaining about this. Caldari have it 10x as hard as you stinky Frogs. My main is still only lvl 2 Caldari after doing dozens and dozens of matches. Know why, because we hardly ever fuking win, thus never gain standing.
All you Frogs have the easy mode on cruise control because there are so damn many of you spamming FW and so few Caldari. You could AFK all the time and make more LP than I ever will actually trying to win a game.
STFU you little bitchh!
Butthurt much?
Try actually winning you ****.
This isn't about Caldari vs Gallente.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
4847
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 14:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:You are assuming that if you AFK in Gallente FW you are more likely to lose than if you play well in Caldari. That assumption is incorrect. me and my squad did caldari and win 80% of our games.... its not as hard to win as you think, it just requires that you bring friends.
Or not suck.
I wonder how many that complain about blueberries in Caldari FW are actually bad themselves.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
4848
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 14:32:00 -
[10] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Ghosts Chance wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:You are assuming that if you AFK in Gallente FW you are more likely to lose than if you play well in Caldari. That assumption is incorrect. me and my squad did caldari and win 80% of our games.... its not as hard to win as you think, it just requires that you bring friends. Or not suck. I wonder how many that complain about blueberries in Caldari FW are actually bad themselves. Spin it all you want, but when the NF squads decided they needed to start qsynching that's all the proof I needed that it wasn't just my bad luck and lack of l33t skillz. Again, if 7 people (I have pics) on my team end up with 0 WP and the #4 player on the board is a shotgun/revive awoxer not much can be done about that. (King kobrah was in my squad, does he need to git gud?) I have no doubt there are bad players complaining but that doesn't mean the system isn't flawed.
Not sure about the system flawed part.
What makes you think that?
From what I'm seeing, there are simply better Gallente players.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
4850
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 14:50:00 -
[11] - Quote
Izlare Lenix wrote:
It is not that all the Gallente are better players. They have more players. WAY more players. And so yes buy default they have a larger pool of better players and more players with high SP than the Caldari do.
The main problem with the Caldari side is the massive amount of noobs and randoms that get thrown into a cal match because the other three races were already filled up.
So even when the few good Caldari work together, we often still lose because the rest of our team is so awful.
There is not much a six man squad can do on the Caldari side when the rest of the team gets you cloned or they hide in the red line/afk in the MCC.
huh...
That's an interesting analysis.
Though I'm pretty sure Caldari are the most popular race.
They are in EVE so I wonder why it would be different in Dust.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
4851
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Posted - 2013.12.21 15:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Izlare Lenix wrote:
It is not that all the Gallente are better players. They have more players. WAY more players. And so yes buy default they have a larger pool of better players and more players with high SP than the Caldari do.
The main problem with the Caldari side is the massive amount of noobs and randoms that get thrown into a cal match because the other three races were already filled up.
So even when the few good Caldari work together, we often still lose because the rest of our team is so awful.
There is not much a six man squad can do on the Caldari side when the rest of the team gets you cloned or they hide in the red line/afk in the MCC.
huh... That's an interesting analysis. Though I'm pretty sure Caldari are the most popular race. They are in EVE so I wonder why it would be different in Dust. Cuz herp derp FREEEEDOOOMM! Also: really cat? You have not seen any of the 58 threads detailing this exact population disparity this week? (Marauder would also like to have a word with you.)
Didn't watch this space for a while, I had some issues IRL with my equipment and stuff, had to fix it all.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
|
Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
4852
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 15:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
Chunky Munkey wrote:Why do so many people think FW should be entirely viable on its own?
Put an Isk price on any of the unique LP items then we'll talk.
Because it should.
After 200 matches of grinding to get any decent reward, it should be enough to be sustainable.
If not then, why waste my time?
I will just run pub matches and buy FW gear from suckers in the market 
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
|
Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
4852
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 15:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:Cat Merc wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Izlare Lenix wrote:
It is not that all the Gallente are better players. They have more players. WAY more players. And so yes buy default they have a larger pool of better players and more players with high SP than the Caldari do.
The main problem with the Caldari side is the massive amount of noobs and randoms that get thrown into a cal match because the other three races were already filled up.
So even when the few good Caldari work together, we often still lose because the rest of our team is so awful.
There is not much a six man squad can do on the Caldari side when the rest of the team gets you cloned or they hide in the red line/afk in the MCC.
huh... That's an interesting analysis. Though I'm pretty sure Caldari are the most popular race. They are in EVE so I wonder why it would be different in Dust. Cuz herp derp FREEEEDOOOMM! Also: really cat? You have not seen any of the 58 threads detailing this exact population disparity this week? (Marauder would also like to have a word with you.) Didn't watch this space for a while, I had some issues IRL with my equipment and stuff, had to fix it all. That's what you get for playing with the cords! Bad kitty! (Go ahead and catch up and the discussion can continue later once you are up to speed)
Can you direct me to some threads?
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
|
Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
4852
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 15:27:00 -
[15] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:I'll be glad to... later. Pulled a 24hr shift IRL myself, I have no idea why I'm not in bed yet.
lol
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
4857
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 16:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:FW payouts are probably structured with an eye I towards the coming player market. The equation changes a bit when you can sell / trade salvage.
Judging from EVE, +10%.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
|
Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
4858
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 17:22:00 -
[17] - Quote
Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote:Jaysyn Larrisen wrote:FW payouts are probably structured with an eye I towards the coming player market. The equation changes a bit when you can sell / trade salvage. Probably? Probably??? Of course they're geared towards the existence of a player market. There is no question about this. The problem is that we dont have a player market. I also have no idea when we'll get one. It's a daunting task that CCP has been overly confident about delivering time and time again all the way up to the point where they sit down and look at it and go "holy ****" and than move on to other lower hanging fruit. This is exactly why I urged them not to release the LP store without it, or at the very least, to fix the utterly broken payout scheme as a short-term holdover. They didnt, and this is exactly Cat Merc is absolutely correct in his assessment. We can only evaluate features in the present, as they stand today. "But ________ is coming next!" should never be justification for leaving a broken system in the game that causes players to get burnt out while they wait for a feature with no guaranteed delivery date in sight. The payouts need to be increased, to allow for sustainability, even if "sustainable" means running an occasional match to get the small amount of isk needed to shop in the LP store. Occasional pub matches mixed in is more than fine, but LP should still buy mercs most of the gear they need to keep fighting in FW. Right now, this just isn't the case. We're asked to grind 200 matches to get to a payout level that's even remotely palatable even in winning conditions, which are of course never guaranteed. Any system that asks players to invest in 200 matches but isn't giving them the resources they need to get that far without going bankrupt is broken. I stand firmly with the OP here. CCP can always revert the temporary buffs when they do release the market, whenever that occurs, and rely on salvage and specialist items to replace that value. But I have no idea when that will occur, its not something we should count on, and so the system needs a fix regardless of future plans.
I approve of this product and/or service.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
4866
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 20:17:00 -
[18] - Quote
low genius wrote:tl;dr
there are much better reasons to play fw than for 'gear with lower skill requirements'
Like?
It needs to be a tangible reward.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
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