| Pages: 1 2 :: [one page] |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
mollerz
Minja Scouts
1403
   |
Posted - 2013.12.20 03:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
I just want to start by refering to the Mk.0 scout suit description since their introduction:
Quote:The Scout dropsuit is a lightweight suit optimized for enhanced mobility, multi-spectrum stealth, and heightened awareness. Augmented joint servo motors give every movement extra speed and flexibility, while integrated friction and impact dampening materials reduce the overall sound signature.
Biotic augments make this suit ideal for a melee-focused role. Woven into the suit, a tremor membrane saturates muscles with nutrients amplifying the cross-sectional force of physical strikes. Combined with rigorous training, this temporarily enhanced strength and dexterity make the Minmatar Scout almost unmatched in hand-to-hand combat.
When missions call for speed and stealth, situations in which heavily armored suits would be more of a burden than an advantage, a scout dropsuit is the best option. The enhanced mobility it provides makes up for its relatively low protection, and when combined with stealth technology modules, the scout suit is the obvious choice for infiltration, counter-espionage, and assassination.
1) The act of attacking would break the cloak. Not the turning off the module and then attacking. Not switching to a weapon from a scanner type of equipment.
2) You can not sprint without causing a lot of visual distortion and making you far easier to see, yet not totally decloak as well. The cloak would resume fully as you transitioned into walk speed. This way you couldn't just run up to a group fully cloaked and uncloak as you swung your knives.
3) If you break your cloak there should be a recovery period based on a skill level. Not ten minutes either. perhaps 30s to start with a 10% decrease per cloaking skill.
4) the cloak should take up a high slot. The balance is perpetuated by the vulnurability of the suit. equipping a cloak then further weakens a scouts defenses as they lose a shield extender. Losing a shield extender on even a proto minja currently still keeps you at 300EHP total fully skilled out.
5) minjas and ganjas should have different cloaking utlizations. Ganja more recon based. minja more assasination based. both races should have a counter espionage version.
Furthermore, in any design implementations. I need to insist it is true to the Proto minja scout description that has been on the suit since their inception.
- It is definitely a module- high slot makes the most sense.
- It is balanced by the already existing weakness of the suit, thus draconian fittings and irregular slot placement is not a balance in any which way.
- It is combat worthy to the point of accentuating assassination, recon, and counter espionage per the description.
#shittycoding
|
Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
1809
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 04:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
Would it be a used in the equipment slot?
Also, Ginja.
But I like yours better ;)
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
|
Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate
Amarr Empire
957
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 04:08:00 -
[3] - Quote
Is this an active cloak or a passive cloak?
!
|
KING CHECKMATE
Scions of Athra
3389
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 04:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:Would it be a used in the equipment slot?
Also, Ginja.
But I like yours better ;)
GÖª If its an equipment Logis will abuse it as well,going as far as packing Cloaking + A.Sanners making Scouts useless (even more).
GÖª Cloaking SHOULD be scout only too.
AV-TANK BALANCE = https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1612446#post1612446
|
Cyrius Li-Moody
The New Age Outlaws
WINMATAR.
2358
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 04:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
I hope they just give all scouts 2 equipment slots and give them a bonus to equipping them. So you can have the utility of two piece of equipment with a gimped tank or DPS or one piece of equipment, a cloak, and a decent tank.
Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
|
Otrera Goddess
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
104
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 04:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
Give me a cloak now  |
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
5949
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
CCP Frame and CCP Remnant have confirmed that cloaks will be equipment items.
Sources:
http://dust514.com/news/2013/12/interview-with-ccp-remnant/
http://dust514.com/news/blog/2013/03/equipment-is-your-friend/
OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
|
Sinboto Simmons
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
3290
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ganja
Sinboto - The True Blood Minja
Forum Warrior level 3
STB-Infantry (Demolition)
|
Sam Tektzby
Better Hide R Die
42
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
Oki they basicaly steal cloak from Blacklight: Retribution how it seems.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTGpzBWHDv4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nHoNUaD-NY
Support - Tactician/Medic
|
T8R Raid
BIG BAD W0LVES
104
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
Often times, i feel like my ginja gk.0 is already cloaked, most people rely on scanners and their radar. give me a cloak and it'll have no better description than 'rude'. also, logis do everything better already, dont let them have cloaks too. that would be lame, and if you're hellbent on letting them fit it. make it so they cant fit anything but a standard weapon with no mods. just to prove the point thats it really a scout tool.
Unchecked dishonesty can promote the perception that one must cheat to remain competitive.
|
|
|
Aero Yassavi
Scions of Athra
4188
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
It's been confirmed as an equipment for a long time, NOT a module. The reason is because they want to add it in soon, but they don't have any interface currently for active modules on dropsuits. So why go through all the work of creating that just for one item when they can instead make it an equipment and then activate it from the equipment wheel. Just makes more sense for CCP.
Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
|
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
5951
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
I want that machete!
OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
|
Aero Yassavi
Scions of Athra
4188
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
T8R Raid wrote:Often times, i feel like my ginja gk.0 is already cloaked, most people rely on scanners and their radar. give me a cloak and it'll have no better description than 'rude'. also, logis do everything better already, dont let them have cloaks too. that would be lame, and if you're hellbent on letting them fit it. make it so they cant fit anything but a standard weapon with no mods. just to prove the point thats it really a scout tool.
That's pretty much how CCP's been describing it. The fitting costs will be crazy high so you cannot fit it on any suit unless you want to sacrifice both firepower and defenses, but scouts will get a hefty fitting reduction bonus.
Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
|
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
5951
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:52:00 -
[14] - Quote
T8R Raid wrote:Often times, i feel like my ginja gk.0 is already cloaked, most people rely on scanners and their radar. give me a cloak and it'll have no better description than 'rude'. also, logis do everything better already, dont let them have cloaks too. that would be lame, and if you're hellbent on letting them fit it. make it so they cant fit anything but a standard weapon with no mods. just to prove the point thats it really a scout tool.
As a dedicated scout, I actually condone allowing every suit class to fit a cloak IF they have the equipment slot for it.
If you read the link that I provided, you can see that CCP Remnant mentioned that scouts will get a fitting bonus for cloaks. This will mean that a Logi will be able to use it but at the cost of fitting other modules which he might need to compete. Heavies currently don't have any equipment slots so we can rule out any threat of invisible HMGs. Scouts in the meantime will have full reign on the cloak since they will be able to fit everything else without having to worry about their CPU/PG.
There is also the fact that scouts might also be given an additional perk in which the cloak will fluctuate less when used on a scout instead of a Logi.
In Eve Online, every ship can fit a cloak, but the Covert Ops ships are the only ones capable of warping while cloaked, capable of instantly targeting without suffering any targeting delay penalty that others have to deal with, and they don't suffer any speed penalty when activated.
But to fair, even in Eve Online, there is a certain cloak that can only be fitted on a Covert Ops and that's the Covert Ops Cloaking Device.
In Dust, there should be a standard cloak that is available for all suits but can work better on scouts. But at the same time, there should be a high-tier Covert Ops cloaking equipment that can only be fitted on the prototype-level scout suit or a highly-specialized Covert Ops scout suit.
OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
|
Sam Tektzby
Better Hide R Die
42
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:55:00 -
[15] - Quote
In Blacklight retributon you have:
Knife
Bigger knife
Trowing knives (throw/melee - my favorite on my speed cloak class)
Machete
Crowbar
Hammer (my second melee arm)
and wierd thingies like:
Electric shurikens (throw/melee - on wall or floor working like stunt mines)
Explosive tomahawh (throw/melee - in wall or floor working lke remote explosive).
Support - Tactician/Medic
|
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
5951
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:57:00 -
[16] - Quote
Sam Tektzby wrote:In Blacklight retributon you have: Knife, Bigger knife, Trowing knives (my favorite on my speed cloak class), Machete, Crowbar, Hammer and wierd thingies like Electric shurikens (on wall or floor working like stunt mines) and Explosive tomahawh (in wall or floor working lke remote explosive).
**** those other things. I just want the machete.
OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
|
Tch Tch
Red Shirts Away Team
90
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
Why not put active modules on the same wheel as equipment... There is plenty of space on the wheel, we already use it.
Simplest solution and the least training required to adapt to. Maybe visually have a different colour for active modules.
Turrent - the sound a tankers pants makes when he finds out the four swarm militia doing squats around him aren't AFK.
|
Sam Tektzby
Better Hide R Die
42
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 06:04:00 -
[18] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Sam Tektzby wrote:In Blacklight retributon you have: Knife, Bigger knife, Trowing knives (my favorite on my speed cloak class), Machete, Crowbar, Hammer and wierd thingies like Electric shurikens (on wall or floor working like stunt mines) and Explosive tomahawh (in wall or floor working lke remote explosive). **** those other things. I just want the machete.
Wait i know you XD
http://collider.com/wp-content/uploads/machete-danny-trejo-image.jpg
Support - Tactician/Medic
|
mr musturd
0uter.Heaven
168
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 11:07:00 -
[19] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Sam Tektzby wrote:In Blacklight retributon you have: Knife, Bigger knife, Trowing knives (my favorite on my speed cloak class), Machete, Crowbar, Hammer and wierd thingies like Electric shurikens (on wall or floor working like stunt mines) and Explosive tomahawh (in wall or floor working lke remote explosive). **** those other things. I just want the machete.
if you get a machete i want one as well. also the cloak better be an equipment item im not sacrificing a high slot! |
Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
384
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 11:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:T8R Raid wrote:Often times, i feel like my ginja gk.0 is already cloaked, most people rely on scanners and their radar. give me a cloak and it'll have no better description than 'rude'. also, logis do everything better already, dont let them have cloaks too. that would be lame, and if you're hellbent on letting them fit it. make it so they cant fit anything but a standard weapon with no mods. just to prove the point thats it really a scout tool. As a dedicated scout, I actually condone allowing every suit class to fit a cloak IF they have the equipment slot for it. If you read the link that I provided, you can see that CCP Remnant mentioned that scouts will get a fitting bonus for cloaks. This will mean that a Logi will be able to use it but at the cost of fitting other modules which he might need to compete. Heavies currently don't have any equipment slots so we can rule out any threat of invisible HMGs. Scouts in the meantime will have full reign on the cloak since they will be able to fit everything else without having to worry about their CPU/PG. There is also the fact that scouts might also be given an additional perk in which the cloak will fluctuate less when used on a scout instead of a Logi. In Eve Online, every ship can fit a cloak, but the Covert Ops ships are the only ones capable of warping while cloaked, capable of instantly targeting without suffering any targeting delay penalty that others have to deal with, and they don't suffer any speed penalty when activated. But to fair, even in Eve Online, there is a certain cloak that can only be fitted on a Covert Ops and that's the Covert Ops Cloaking Device. In Dust, there should be a standard cloak that is available for all suits but can work better on scouts. But at the same time, there should be a high-tier Covert Ops cloaking equipment that can only be fitted on the prototype-level scout suit or a highly-specialized Covert Ops scout suit.
I fear that scouts won't be a good choice for cloaking equipment unless they get a HUGE boost to fitting reqs.
Scouts have the lowest CPU rating(apart from commandos I think) and not that much PG as well. So any medium suit will have a good chance to have more overall effective cloaked fittings. A good bonus to compensate could be that only scouts can move or sprint while cloaking is active let every other suit break the cloak when they move.... |
|
|
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
4265
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 11:37:00 -
[21] - Quote
Korvin Lomont wrote:A good bonus to compensate could be that only scouts can move or sprint while cloaking is active let every other suit break the cloak when they move....
There's going to be a "shimmer" effect on cloaks which makes you not-quite-invisible. Movement will make it worse. It's been proposed that this shimmer would be greatly reduced on Scouts.
You don't break cloak by moving, but you become LESS invisible, and Scouts don't take as hard a hit as other suits. If they do it right, it'll be good. If they do it wrong, the movement will expose you obviously enough that even a Scout might as well be breaking cloak if they try to run. |
Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service
RISE of LEGION
384
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 11:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Korvin Lomont wrote:A good bonus to compensate could be that only scouts can move or sprint while cloaking is active let every other suit break the cloak when they move.... There's going to be a "shimmer" effect on cloaks which makes you not-quite-invisible. Movement will make it worse. It's been proposed that this shimmer would be greatly reduced on Scouts. You don't break cloak by moving, but you become LESS invisible, and Scouts don't take as hard a hit as other suits. If they do it right, it'll be good. If they do it wrong, the movement will expose you obviously enough that even a Scout might as well be breaking cloak if they try to run.
Well I guess it will partly depend on how significant the scouts bonus to cloaking devices will be. But looking at current skill bonusses I am a little concerned that tis bonus will be something around 10% per level, this can easily compensated by medium suits with their better slot layout and higher CPU ratings...
Of course it also depends on massive the shimmering effect on non scoutsuits will be compared to scouts, but in general CCP has showed that they don't like scouts very much. |
FAKIR REDETTa
0uter.Heaven
31
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 12:43:00 -
[23] - Quote
a visible cloak is useless make it spy tf2 |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust.
1985
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 12:45:00 -
[24] - Quote
I mentioned this before elsewhere but ingame descriptions are so horrendously out of date that they should not be taken as any current or future intention for anything at all.
Dust2Dust - Funeral arrangements for all of New Eden. Join our public channel D2D. to chat and squad with us.
|
Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate
Amarr Empire
957
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 13:43:00 -
[25] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:It's been confirmed as an equipment for a long time, NOT a module. The reason is because they want to add it in soon, but they don't have any interface currently for active modules on dropsuits. So why go through all the work of creating that just for one item when they can instead make it an equipment and then activate it from the equipment wheel. Just makes more sense for CCP.
Because CCP has the logistics class which they plan to be the best at using equipment. However, the cloak and things like e-war, hardeners, etc. are not things that the logi should excel at using but will if they are implemented as equipment. (Not to mention they just make more sense as being a part of the suit and not an outside device) It makes more sense to update the interface to include active modules because it is work that gives CCP more freedom in how to add new content to the game. Creating a game can't be about taking the easiest path, it requires taking the best path that creates a good foundation to build the game upon.
!
|
mollerz
Minja Scouts
1406
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 20:15:00 -
[26] - Quote
T8R Raid wrote:Often times, i feel like my ginja gk.0 is already cloaked, most people rely on scanners and their radar. give me a cloak and it'll have no better description than 'rude'. also, logis do everything better already, dont let them have cloaks too. that would be lame, and if you're hellbent on letting them fit it. make it so they cant fit anything but a standard weapon with no mods. just to prove the point thats it really a scout tool.
I've been getting snuck up on by you guys a lot :)
#shittycoding
|
mollerz
Minja Scouts
1406
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 20:18:00 -
[27] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Korvin Lomont wrote:A good bonus to compensate could be that only scouts can move or sprint while cloaking is active let every other suit break the cloak when they move.... There's going to be a "shimmer" effect on cloaks which makes you not-quite-invisible. Movement will make it worse. It's been proposed that this shimmer would be greatly reduced on Scouts. You don't break cloak by moving, but you become LESS invisible, and Scouts don't take as hard a hit as other suits. If they do it right, it'll be good. If they do it wrong, the movement will expose you obviously enough that even a Scout might as well be breaking cloak if they try to run.
I picture basically playing red light green light lol.
#shittycoding
|
mollerz
Minja Scouts
1406
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 20:21:00 -
[28] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:I mentioned this before elsewhere but ingame descriptions are so horrendously out of date that they should not be taken as any current or future intention for anything at all.
That doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken seriously. I realize that CCP is just basically sloppy as all ****, but c'mon. Get a fricken copyrighter intern to do a sweep and adjust everything for accuracy. It really is shameful how much information is missing.
LAZY.
#shittycoding
|
Ghost Kaisar
Kinsho Swords
Caldari State
1272
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 20:25:00 -
[29] - Quote
Also realize that most scouts won't use it to sneak RIGHT up onto the target.
I will probably end up using mine to stage ambushes and to make hasty get-aways.
Think of it this way. Why have a cloak going when nobody can see you?
Use the cloak to traverse high visibility areas, and let it recharge while you are hidden.
Use it for ambushes. Kill 2 targets, and the rest start running after you. Retreat into room. Stand in corner. Cloak. They walk in, don't see anything, and then continue moving, thinking that the scout has run off elsewhere. If they don't see you cloak, they can't know that you have one on.
Play smart people 
Minmatar Faction Warfare: Let's get Organized
|
Slag Emberforge
Immortal Retribution
346
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 20:31:00 -
[30] - Quote
I agree that any active modules should have their own slot, therefore by necessity "niche" rolls aka the non-versatile suits should have actives built in, cloaks for scouts, active self reps or hardeners for heavies.
Although it would be pretty phenomenal to Be a cloaked heavy in a room with a point, and a HMG... Buwahahahaha it'd be so deliciously evil. |
|
|
mollerz
Minja Scouts
1406
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 20:37:00 -
[31] - Quote
Krom Ganesh wrote:Aero Yassavi wrote:It's been confirmed as an equipment for a long time, NOT a module. The reason is because they want to add it in soon, but they don't have any interface currently for active modules on dropsuits. So why go through all the work of creating that just for one item when they can instead make it an equipment and then activate it from the equipment wheel. Just makes more sense for CCP. Because CCP has the logistics class which they plan to be the best at using equipment. However, the cloak and things like e-war, hardeners, etc. are not things that the logi should excel at using but will if they are implemented as equipment. (Not to mention they just make more sense as being a part of the suit and not an outside device) It makes more sense to update the interface to include active modules because it is work that gives CCP more freedom in how to add new content to the game. Creating a game can't be about taking the easiest path, it requires taking the best path that creates a good foundation to build the game upon.
Equipment slots in dust seem to be medium slots in eve. I felt this especially became so when they introduced scanning equipment.
It is a shame they went the route of equipment, and not the route they took in Eve. A high slot makes the most sense when you factor in achieving parity between the two settings. The covert ops cloak should be included with the regular cloak, and only fitted by light suits. Pilot suits should be exempt of course, but free to fit the regular cloak. I don't mind if logis have a lesser cloak, they just make juicier targets is all.
If a scout gets two equipment slots and the cloak is activated on the equipment wheel is there really any difference? Well, it makes the scout more powerful if it's an Eq slot. I get to keep all my shielding/dam modding capabilities. I just shudder to think I am going to have to use that sloppy ass janky equipment wheel to go in and out of cloaking. It already is a huge ***** just to throw out a compact nano hive sometimes. Not to mention- Then I can't hold my knives while I am cloaked. It would render cloaking useless for assassination purposes making the minja scout suit gimped once again.
#shittycoding
|
mollerz
Minja Scouts
1406
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 20:44:00 -
[32] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:Also realize that most scouts won't use it to sneak RIGHT up onto the target. I will probably end up using mine to stage ambushes and to make hasty get-aways. Think of it this way. Why have a cloak going when nobody can see you? Use the cloak to traverse high visibility areas, and let it recharge while you are hidden. Use it for ambushes. Kill 2 targets, and the rest start running after you. Retreat into room. Stand in corner. Cloak. They walk in, don't see anything, and then continue moving, thinking that the scout has run off elsewhere. If they don't see you cloak, they can't know that you have one on. Play smart people
The minja suit has the highest walk speed of any suit, so fitted with knives, you would sneak right up to a target.
Every scout would find a different use based on a role. That's the sandbox way, and that is the long standing eve way. To relegate the cloak to only be used one way defeats it's purpose.
The cloak is a tool that, in the right scouts hands, will be used for infiltration, counter-espionage, and assassination. Evasion will be one primary use for it, but assassination will be as well.
I already think I know how I will use it, just as you do by your own example. There is no guarantee it will be easily used in any way if it is equipment.
Oh, and to clarify an above posters question, there is no doubt it should be an active module and not a passive one. The time you can remain cloaked should be skill based, and amount to a few minutes (not 20 seconds).
#shittycoding
|
Roger Cordill
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
293
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 20:49:00 -
[33] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Cody Sietz wrote:Would it be a used in the equipment slot?
Also, Ginja.
But I like yours better ;) GÖª If its an equipment Logis will abuse it as well,going as far as packing Cloaking + A.Sanners making Scouts useless (even more).
GÖª Cloaking SHOULD be scout only too.
Message from Godin: Learn to read:
CCP Remnant wrote:Alas, poor Scout, I knew him!
The ScoutGÇÖs not gotten too much love in recent months. What started out as a bullet-strafing monster back in Chromosome has slowly been marginalized as other aspects of the game have been worked on and improved. IGÇÖm happy to say that soon the Scout class should be wholly rejuvenated (or at the very least, be in a much better place). The introduction of cloaking equipment and revamped bonuses should help the Scout find his rightful place in the battlefield hierarchy. To me, the Scout role has always been about creating a disruptive force on the battlefield. HeGÇÖs the guy that can cover enough ground quickly enough to get drop uplinks into the right places (that is, if everyone didnGÇÖt carry one, but more on that later), hack objectives back, disperse squad members (nothing makes people scatter faster than a KC-amped shotgunner) and generally make a nuisance of himself.
The Scout role will get very high PG/CPU bonuses to fitting cloak equipment, making it just about the only role that can feasibly fit a cloak field without having to sacrifice the rest of its fit. Individual race skill bonuses will create opportunities for cloaked scouts to scan further and longer than other dropsuits, to have less GÇ£shimmerGÇ¥ as they move, and have lower innate scan profiles so that they can be visually and electronically invisible. These should help create more useful assassins, intel gatherers, and saboteurs. And in time, the introduction of additional Scout specializations will be added to further push the boundaries of the little Light Suit That Could. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
5958
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 21:18:00 -
[34] - Quote
Korvin Lomont wrote:I fear that scouts won't be a good choice for cloaking equipment unless they get a HUGE boost to fitting reqs.
Scouts have the lowest CPU rating(apart from commandos I think) and not that much PG as well. So any medium suit will have a good chance to have more overall effective cloaked fittings. A good bonus to compensate could be that only scouts can move or sprint while cloaking is active let every other suit break the cloak when they move....
And that is a very important point that we need to make to CCP. My suggestion for this is to make the cloaking equipment cost about at least 350 CPU and about 80 PG which is enough to take up more than half the space of a Logistics Mk.0. But give the scout a fitting bonus of -99% reduction in CPU/PG usage of the item. As a result, the scout will only need just less than 5 points of CPU/PG to fit it.
OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
|
mollerz
Minja Scouts
1407
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 01:08:00 -
[35] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Korvin Lomont wrote:I fear that scouts won't be a good choice for cloaking equipment unless they get a HUGE boost to fitting reqs.
Scouts have the lowest CPU rating(apart from commandos I think) and not that much PG as well. So any medium suit will have a good chance to have more overall effective cloaked fittings. A good bonus to compensate could be that only scouts can move or sprint while cloaking is active let every other suit break the cloak when they move.... And that is a very important point that we need to make to CCP. My suggestion for this is to make the cloaking equipment cost about at least 350 CPU and about 80 PG which is enough to take up more than half the space of a Logistics Mk.0. But give the scout a fitting bonus of -99% reduction in CPU/PG usage of the item. As a result, the scout will only need just less than 5 points of CPU/PG to fit it.
That would be good. I liked your bringing up the covert ops cloak especially.
If they develop this so you have to hold a scanner like device while running around cloaked it will be an instant loser. It is a shame they, once again, forged on with a dead in the water design. One more thing I won't use meant for scouts  Just like when scanners came out.. oops! Can't fit them due to no CPU.
Regardless, I hope they overhaul everything much better for infantry than they did for vehicles.
#shittycoding
|
mollerz
Minja Scouts
1407
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 01:10:00 -
[36] - Quote
Roger Cordill wrote:
Message from Godin: Learn to read:
Snip of lameness
Sorry what was that? Godin's small pecker in your mouth is making it hard to understand you.
#shittycoding
|
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
5961
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 05:06:00 -
[37] - Quote
mollerz wrote:That would be good. I liked your bringing up the covert ops cloak especially. If they develop this so you have to hold a scanner like device while running around cloaked it will be an instant loser. It is a shame they, once again, forged on with a dead in the water design. One more thing I won't use meant for scouts Just like when scanners came out.. oops! Can't fit them due to no CPU. Regardless, I hope they overhaul everything much better for infantry than they did for vehicles.
Actually, I like the idea of the cloak being something you can hold in your hand while running cloaked but then that will depend on how it's implemented. Do I have to keep it in my hand in order for the cloak to remain active or can I just swap to a weapon and keep the cloak active so long as I don't do any attacks such detonating REs or stabbing with the nova knives? I would very much prefer the latter if it's possible.
But yeah, here are my proposed stats for the cloak:
Standard Cloak (can fit on all suit classes and tiers)
CPU: 350
PG: 80
Cooldown Upon Deactivation: 30 Seconds
Cloak Stability Rating while Moving: 4 (moderate-high shimmer)
Cloak Stability Rating while Sprinting: 2 (high shimmer)
Bonuses when fitted on Scout: -99% reduction on CPU/PG usage and a +3 Cloak Stability Rating for moving and sprinting.
Covert Ops Cloak (can only be fitted on specialty Covert Ops Scout or Prototype Scout)
CPU: 350
PG: 80
Cooldown: 15 seconds
Cloak Stability Rating while Moving: 10 (no shimmer)
Cloak Stability Rating while Sprinting: 8 (very low shimmer)
Bonus when fitted on Prototype Scout: -99% reduction on CPU/PG usage
Bonus when fitted on Covert Ops Specialty Scout: -99% reduction on CPU/PG usage with -25% reduction to cooldown timer
Skill Prerequisite for Standard Cloak:
Cloaking Equipment Skill Book Level 1 ( -5% reduction to cooldown timer per level )
Skill Prerequisites for Covert Ops Cloak:
Cloaking Equipment Skill Book Level 5 ( -5% reduction to cooldown timer per level )
Cloaking Equipment Proficiency Skill Book Level 1 ( -3% reduction to cooldown timer per level )
What do you guys think?
OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
|
Kasira Vorrikesh
Fraternity of St. Venefice
Amarr Empire
46
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 05:27:00 -
[38] - Quote
My dreams for the cloak (without having read anyone else's):
Given just how terrible the scout suit is, I'd rather they make the cloak built-in to the scout suit. Not a module or equipment. You buy a scout suit, you get the cloak in each and every suit. Having integrated cloak would finally explain why scout suits have laughable slot and CPU/PG stats, right?
As for how I'd like it to work: always on. You move, you shimmer. You move fast, you shimmer rapidly. You stop, you go completely invisible after, say, 5 seconds. A skill might lower the total-invisibility time. You fire any weapon (including grenades but not REs), you become totally visible. You are fired upon (hit), you become totally visible. Time to regain invisibility would work like shield depletion, i.e, longer than shimmer timer.
Flux grenades would disrupt cloak and disable it for an arbitrarily long amount of time; 30 seconds?
If other suits would be allowed to use cloak, it'd be in the form of a module or equipment, would not allow movement while cloaked (only stationary to set up ambushes), and would have long cooldowns.
That's all I can think of for now.
|
OZAROW
WarRavens
League of Infamy
1108
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 16:36:00 -
[39] - Quote
I love how it says unmatched in stealth an hand to hand combat, yet it's base melee is horrible , even with my passive h2h at 3 it's only 100 |
CommanderBolt
ACME SPECIAL FORCES
465
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 17:21:00 -
[40] - Quote
Kasira Vorrikesh wrote:My dreams for the cloak (without having read anyone else's):
Given just how terrible the scout suit is, I'd rather they make the cloak built-in to the scout suit. Not a module or equipment. You buy a scout suit, you get the cloak in each and every suit. Having integrated cloak would finally explain why scout suits have laughable slot and CPU/PG stats, right?
As for how I'd like it to work: always on. You move, you shimmer. You move fast, you shimmer rapidly. You stop, you go completely invisible after, say, 5 seconds. A skill might lower the total-invisibility time. You fire any weapon (including grenades but not REs), you become totally visible. You are fired upon (hit), you become totally visible. Time to regain invisibility would work like shield depletion, i.e, longer than shimmer timer.
Flux grenades would disrupt cloak and disable it for an arbitrarily long amount of time; 30 seconds?
If other suits would be allowed to use cloak, it'd be in the form of a module or equipment, would not allow movement while cloaked (only stationary to set up ambushes), and would have long cooldowns.
That's all I can think of for now.
Edit* integrated cloak scout suit would cost a little more than non-cloak scout suit, which would still be available.
That's not a bad idea.
They could incorporate it in a similar fashion as they have in EVE online.
(For comparison scout suits = covert ops ships)
Scout / covert ops - can fit cloak = Can move freely with cloak using parameters you set out (Or something similar)
Other suits / other ships - can fit cloak = peanalised - can only move very very slowly while under cloak or maybe unable to move I dont know.
In EVE only cov-ops type vessels can warp cloaked. All others are stuck at sub light speeds (Even then they are stuck at VERY slow speeds) In DUST we dont warp so I guess running and sprinting would be the equivalent. |
|
|
CommanderBolt
ACME SPECIAL FORCES
465
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 17:23:00 -
[41] - Quote
OZAROW wrote:I love how it says unmatched in stealth an hand to hand combat, yet it's base melee is horrible , even with my passive h2h at 3 it's only 100
Yea and the commando who is about as slow as a normal heavy has really high melee damage.... makes little sense to me. |
mollerz
Minja Scouts
1409
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 17:34:00 -
[42] - Quote
OZAROW wrote:I love how it says unmatched in stealth an hand to hand combat, yet it's base melee is horrible , even with my passive h2h at 3 it's only 100
I know. It's kind of a joke. The little guy who thinks he's tuff. You can just hear the heavies laughing 
The only thing melee is good for on a scout is to avoid the slash animation misfire. Another thing about their concept of melee and hand to hand differentiation is that melee is commonly referred to and accepted as combat with an edged weapon. They should just make melee and knives the same thing, and then let us use mybrofibil to boost knife and melee damage and drop the silly notion of having to use sidearm dam mods to buff knives.
#shittycoding
|
mollerz
Minja Scouts
1409
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 17:46:00 -
[43] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:
What do you guys think?
All of that is awesome man. I hope you bent that to their ear in their design phase!
With REs, wouldn't the act of dropping the first RE break your cloak? The RE object falling out of the cloak field would break it no?
Knives- I think you should be able to have them equipped while maintaining the cloak. Or maybe minja knives only allow it? The point being, you can't charge your knives or you'd break cloak. The energy from the charge hitting the blades would break the shimmer, if you will.
So let's say it is equipment, that means you'd have to break cloak to switch to a weapon or equipment, then fire or use equipment. Very unwieldy and basically worthless. But, if you could switch tot he cloak equipment, and then activate, then switch to a weapon/equipment while not breaking your cloak... well, it would be sloppy but somewhat useable. Truly, the CCP way.
#shittycoding
|
mollerz
Minja Scouts
1409
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 17:48:00 -
[44] - Quote
Kasira Vorrikesh wrote:
As for how I'd like it to work: always on. You move, you shimmer. You move fast, you shimmer rapidly. You stop, you go completely invisible after, say, 5 seconds.
Everything you said is pretty cool, save that part.
You should immediately go invisible. Or it should be 1s and reduced by skill to 0s.
#shittycoding
|
Oswald Rehnquist
942
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 18:38:00 -
[45] - Quote
The Passive Module Cloak (PMC) is limited to offense meaning it wouldn't be a defensive tool, 30 seconds is a while to depend on the cloak for defense, thus old fashioned hiding would be needed, it would also limit your decloaking kills / offensive nature to single targets, which is fine because such limitations are actually good. Another thing to consider is that the 30 second delay makes it more useful at long range combat than cqc, I run both so it doesn't matter too much.
Whether you actually answer them or not, questions I have about the PMC though are
1) how strong of a cloak is it if it is on 24/7 without an action breaking it? (it connection with question #2)
2) If it is a module what happens when you stack them?
3) I didn't see it in your op, is it scout only?
4) I'm assuming hacking and equipment would count as an action, what would ADSing do?
I personally would like ewar and cloaks to stay equipment but have modules effecting them, so you can technically run an entire ewar suit. The modules then could be used to expand the effectiveness or the range of the ewar. Ewar would cost the logi to where they could only run one, while a scout with a second equipment slot could technically run two if they wanted to.
PS
Equipment and weapons are EVE high slots (dust high slots are EVE mid slots), fitting a cloak in EVE is like having cloaks take up a weapon slot.
http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Slot
Dampening modules are indeed a form of stealth, which is technically enough to satisfy the description, so its not much of an argument on itself, not that any of the descriptions are actually realistic, the assault suit is not they most versatile suit either.
Below 28 dB
|
OZAROW
WarRavens
League of Infamy
1110
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 20:04:00 -
[46] - Quote
mollerz wrote:OZAROW wrote:I love how it says unmatched in stealth an hand to hand combat, yet it's base melee is horrible , even with my passive h2h at 3 it's only 100 I know. It's kind of a joke. The little guy who thinks he's tuff. You can just hear the heavies laughing The only thing melee is good for on a scout is to avoid the slash animation misfire. Another thing about their concept of melee and hand to hand differentiation is that melee is commonly referred to and accepted as combat with an edged weapon. They should just make melee and knives the same thing, and then let us use mybrofibil to boost knife and melee damage and drop the silly notion of having to use sidearm dam mods to buff knives.
Askmusturd but I believe in chrome melee on scout was the highest or close to in game, an back then I think myro worked on knives |
mollerz
Minja Scouts
1414
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 20:31:00 -
[47] - Quote
OZAROW wrote:mollerz wrote:OZAROW wrote:I love how it says unmatched in stealth an hand to hand combat, yet it's base melee is horrible , even with my passive h2h at 3 it's only 100 I know. It's kind of a joke. The little guy who thinks he's tuff. You can just hear the heavies laughing The only thing melee is good for on a scout is to avoid the slash animation misfire. Another thing about their concept of melee and hand to hand differentiation is that melee is commonly referred to and accepted as combat with an edged weapon. They should just make melee and knives the same thing, and then let us use mybrofibil to boost knife and melee damage and drop the silly notion of having to use sidearm dam mods to buff knives. Askmusturd but I believe in chrome melee on scout was the highest or close to in game, an back then I think myro worked on knives
That is correct. The scout B suit had something like 200 melee damage and was the highest of all suits.
#shittycoding
|
Tectonic Fusion
767
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 20:42:00 -
[48] - Quote
Korvin Lomont wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:T8R Raid wrote:Often times, i feel like my ginja gk.0 is already cloaked, most people rely on scanners and their radar. give me a cloak and it'll have no better description than 'rude'. also, logis do everything better already, dont let them have cloaks too. that would be lame, and if you're hellbent on letting them fit it. make it so they cant fit anything but a standard weapon with no mods. just to prove the point thats it really a scout tool. As a dedicated scout, I actually condone allowing every suit class to fit a cloak IF they have the equipment slot for it. If you read the link that I provided, you can see that CCP Remnant mentioned that scouts will get a fitting bonus for cloaks. This will mean that a Logi will be able to use it but at the cost of fitting other modules which he might need to compete. Heavies currently don't have any equipment slots so we can rule out any threat of invisible HMGs. Scouts in the meantime will have full reign on the cloak since they will be able to fit everything else without having to worry about their CPU/PG. There is also the fact that scouts might also be given an additional perk in which the cloak will fluctuate less when used on a scout instead of a Logi. In Eve Online, every ship can fit a cloak, but the Covert Ops ships are the only ones capable of warping while cloaked, capable of instantly targeting without suffering any targeting delay penalty that others have to deal with, and they don't suffer any speed penalty when activated. But to fair, even in Eve Online, there is a certain cloak that can only be fitted on a Covert Ops and that's the Covert Ops Cloaking Device. In Dust, there should be a standard cloak that is available for all suits but can work better on scouts. But at the same time, there should be a high-tier Covert Ops cloaking equipment that can only be fitted on the prototype-level scout suit or a highly-specialized Covert Ops scout suit. I fear that scouts won't be a good choice for cloaking equipment unless they get a HUGE boost to fitting reqs. Scouts have the lowest CPU rating(apart from commandos I think) and not that much PG as well. So any medium suit will have a good chance to have more overall effective cloaked fittings. A good bonus to compensate could be that only scouts can move or sprint while cloaking is active let every other suit break the cloak when they move....
Scouts should have 200% more CPU, so the scouts would be the only suits that could fit it with no penalty in fitting. Not just make it scout only. Also, they could stack dampeners, precision enhancers, and scan radius amps, and have enough room for complex stuff.
Solo Player
Squad status: Locked
|
Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
EoN.
4868
|
Posted - 2013.12.21 20:49:00 -
[49] - Quote
If it was a high slot, the QQ from my Gallente Assault would be endless.
Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Tuna > Tacos
|
Kasira Vorrikesh
Fraternity of St. Venefice
Amarr Empire
47
|
Posted - 2013.12.22 00:37:00 -
[50] - Quote
mollerz wrote:Kasira Vorrikesh wrote:
As for how I'd like it to work: always on. You move, you shimmer. You move fast, you shimmer rapidly. You stop, you go completely invisible after, say, 5 seconds.
Everything you said is pretty cool, save that part. You should immediately go invisible. Or it should be 1s and reduced by skill to 0s. The part about taking fire or getting hit by a flux/explosion is spot on. No one has mentioned that yet, and I think that would be a necessary behavior. I can just picture some poor lonely heavy firing randomly because he knows you are closing in and you manage to just stay ahead of his fire and the last thing he hears is the charging of knives before he spins to.. BLAP 
I forgot to add the reason I want a slight fade-to-invisible delay; it's for balance purposes. It doesn't have to be 5 seconds, but it should be something above zero.
When a cloaked scout is standing still, it's completely undetectable to both the eye and any scanner, regardless of what your normal dB profile is. The only time a scanner can hope to pick up a cloaked scout is when they're moving; then normal profile rules apply.
I think being completely undetectable while stationary warrants the slight balancing factor of a brief fade period; otherwise scouts could disappear in plain sight (rapidly), and I'm sure that would be complained about to no end.
Another idea I had is to keep the integral cloak scout suit's stats the exact same as what we have now, while giving the non-cloak scout suit extra slot(s) and CPU/PG, and still allowing it to have profile-lowering bonuses. So one suit would be pure stealth, the other half-assed stealth with some better fitting options. |
|
|
Auris Lionesse
SVER True Blood
Public Disorder.
16
|
Posted - 2013.12.22 00:45:00 -
[51] - Quote
if your worried about other suits abusing it, do what eve does.
500cpu/150pg and give scouts a 90% fitting reduction of active cloaking modules. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
5997
|
Posted - 2013.12.22 19:22:00 -
[52] - Quote
deleted
OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
|
Demon Buddah
N3PH1L1M
102
|
Posted - 2013.12.22 20:20:00 -
[53] - Quote
I lol'd at Ganjas. The cloak should be an equipment so I don't think we'll lose any health. What I do hope for however is that they give us two equipment slots rather than just one. |
Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
725
|
Posted - 2013.12.22 20:31:00 -
[54] - Quote
I like a cloak that has no penalties to sprinting but lasts only several seconds. Between 5 to 10 is fair. 30 Sec cool down time. This way it would be a narrow window of opportunity type of utility instead of giving you infinite ability to get around undetected.
There should be different kinds of cloaks, perhaps too: one that's more suited for speed and one that's more suited for staying cloaked more.
Lastly, CCP should be very careful with passive and active scanning around cloaks - careful thought should be given to who exactly a scout should be able to see on the radar and how far while cloaked and which suit and how easily should be able to scan down a cloaked scout. I don't know if CCP can show enough finesse to make it actually workable.
Oh, sht! I just learned you can make a signature! Thanks, CCP! Forums are getting better!
|
Ludvig Enraga
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
725
|
Posted - 2013.12.22 20:38:00 -
[55] - Quote
I think this is a very good thought if I'd say so myself that I actually carried around for some time.
Make it a grenade slot!
Here is why - you could turn it on and off with R2 button on the controller ^^. I think most scouts have such tight fits that they don't carry grenades anyway. Also it would be good to limit possibility for dumb but powerful nade AOE from suits that lose nothing by invisibly sneaking into close range for nade attacks.
Oh, sht! I just learned you can make a signature! Thanks, CCP! Forums are getting better!
|
Brynjar Reko
State Patriots
Templis De Novo
34
|
Posted - 2013.12.22 21:07:00 -
[56] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Korvin Lomont wrote:I fear that scouts won't be a good choice for cloaking equipment unless they get a HUGE boost to fitting reqs.
Scouts have the lowest CPU rating(apart from commandos I think) and not that much PG as well. So any medium suit will have a good chance to have more overall effective cloaked fittings. A good bonus to compensate could be that only scouts can move or sprint while cloaking is active let every other suit break the cloak when they move.... And that is a very important point that we need to make to CCP. My suggestion for this is to make the cloaking equipment cost about at least 350 CPU and about 80 PG which is enough to take up more than half the space of a Logistics Mk.0. But give the scout a fitting bonus of -99% reduction in CPU/PG usage of the item. As a result, the scout will only need just less than 5 points of CPU/PG to fit it.
I think the 350 CPU and 80PG are a good set of numbers, I would suggest though a 90% reduction instead of 99 to put the cloak in line with other eq costs but also buff the scout suits resources with a second eq slot and the 35 CPU and 8 pg necessary to fit the standard cloak. This is a buff the suit needs anyways, and gives people the option of integrating cloak into their current fits or using that eq and resource boost for other scoutly duties. |
XxWarlordxX97
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
4103
|
Posted - 2013.12.22 21:08:00 -
[57] - Quote
Sam Tektzby wrote:In Blacklight retributon you have: Knife Bigger knife Trowing knives (throw/melee - my favorite on my speed cloak class) Machete Crowbar Hammer (my second melee arm) and wierd thingies like: Electric shurikens (throw/melee - on wall or floor working like stunt mines) Explosive tomahawh (throw/melee - in wall or floor working lke remote explosive).
I want a non explosive Tomahawk,just to melee with
Level 5 forum warrior
A Solo heavy Boss
I support tanks not being OP
|
Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
6003
|
Posted - 2013.12.22 22:15:00 -
[58] - Quote
Ludvig Enraga wrote:I like a cloak that has no penalties to sprinting but lasts only several seconds. Between 5 to 10 is fair. 30 Sec cool down time. This way it would be a narrow window of opportunity type of utility instead of giving you infinite ability to get around undetected.
There should be different kinds of cloaks, perhaps too: one that's more suited for speed and one that's more suited for staying cloaked more.
Lastly, CCP should be very careful with passive and active scanning around cloaks - careful thought should be given to who exactly a scout should be able to see on the radar and how far while cloaked and which suit and how easily should be able to scan down a cloaked scout. I don't know if CCP can show enough finesse to make it actually workable.
I think it should be an indefinite cloak until you do something to interrupt it. Eve Online has a cloaking system and they have no problems with that because cloaked ships can't do anything except do recon without deactivating the cloak. But they do have a cooldown timer. And if you fit the cloak on a non-specialized ship, then the ship will suffer a speed penalty, unable to warp while cloaked, and suffer a targeting lock delay after deactivating the cloak.
But of course, we're talking about an MMO mechanic in a FPS environment. In that case, it will need to be adapted to suit to environment.
An indefinite cloak is still ok in my eyes for a FPS game so long as there are measures in place to counter it. According to the March 2013 Dev Blog titled "Equipment is you Friend" by CCP Frame, the cloaking equipment is not going to be full proof. Active Scanners will still be able to pick you up and light you up on the TACNET if your profile is not low enough. This means that if you're detected, a chevron will appear over your head to the enemy regardless if you're cloaked or not.
Even if a timed cloak is implemented, 5-10 seconds is way too short given the size of the terrain. It will take me about no less than 30-45 seconds just to even get to the critical parts of the map and begin hiding in the city. Even then, there is still too much risk of some random redberry popping out of a corner and running into your by accident. A duration of no less than 2 minutes should be enough.
OK, CCP. When are knives finally going to be improved?
|
THE GREY CARDINAL
PSU GHOST SYNDICATE
DARKSTAR ARMY
297
|
Posted - 2013.12.22 22:26:00 -
[59] - Quote
I have been a logi since E3 build...but this 6.5 mill unallocated SP will continue to amass until this is released....unless logis get some badass new toys too. |
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 :: [one page] |