DUST Search - Stealth, combat, and cloaking.

Krom Ganesh wrote:

Aero Yassavi wrote:

It's been confirmed as an equipment for a long time, NOT a module. The reason is because they want to add it in soon, but they don't have any interface currently for active modules on dropsuits. So why go through all the work of creating that just for one item when they can instead make it an equipment and then activate it from the equipment wheel. Just makes more sense for CCP.

Because CCP has the logistics class which they plan to be the best at using equipment. However, the cloak and things like e-war, hardeners, etc. are not things that the logi should excel at using but will if they are implemented as equipment. (Not to mention they just make more sense as being a part of the suit and not an outside device) It makes more sense to update the interface to include active modules because it is work that gives CCP more freedom in how to add new content to the game. Creating a game can't be about taking the easiest path, it requires taking the best path that creates a good foundation to build the game upon.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
mollerz Minja Scouts 1403	Posted - 2013.12.20 03:53:00 - [1] - Quote I just want to start by refering to the Mk.0 scout suit description since their introduction: Quote: The Scout dropsuit is a lightweight suit optimized for enhanced mobility, multi-spectrum stealth, and heightened awareness. Augmented joint servo motors give every movement extra speed and flexibility, while integrated friction and impact dampening materials reduce the overall sound signature. Biotic augments make this suit ideal for a melee-focused role. Woven into the suit, a tremor membrane saturates muscles with nutrients amplifying the cross-sectional force of physical strikes. Combined with rigorous training, this temporarily enhanced strength and dexterity make the Minmatar Scout almost unmatched in hand-to-hand combat. When missions call for speed and stealth, situations in which heavily armored suits would be more of a burden than an advantage, a scout dropsuit is the best option. The enhanced mobility it provides makes up for its relatively low protection, and when combined with stealth technology modules, the scout suit is the obvious choice for infiltration, counter-espionage, and assassination. 1) The act of attacking would break the cloak. Not the turning off the module and then attacking. Not switching to a weapon from a scanner type of equipment. 2) You can not sprint without causing a lot of visual distortion and making you far easier to see, yet not totally decloak as well. The cloak would resume fully as you transitioned into walk speed. This way you couldn't just run up to a group fully cloaked and uncloak as you swung your knives. 3) If you break your cloak there should be a recovery period based on a skill level. Not ten minutes either. perhaps 30s to start with a 10% decrease per cloaking skill. 4) the cloak should take up a high slot. The balance is perpetuated by the vulnurability of the suit. equipping a cloak then further weakens a scouts defenses as they lose a shield extender. Losing a shield extender on even a proto minja currently still keeps you at 300EHP total fully skilled out. 5) minjas and ganjas should have different cloaking utlizations. Ganja more recon based. minja more assasination based. both races should have a counter espionage version. Furthermore, in any design implementations. I need to insist it is true to the Proto minja scout description that has been on the suit since their inception. - It is definitely a module- high slot makes the most sense. - It is balanced by the already existing weakness of the suit, thus draconian fittings and irregular slot placement is not a balance in any which way. - It is combat worthy to the point of accentuating assassination, recon, and counter espionage per the description. #shittycoding
mollerz Minja Scouts 1406	Posted - 2013.12.20 20:15:00 - [2] - Quote T8R Raid wrote: Often times, i feel like my ginja gk.0 is already cloaked, most people rely on scanners and their radar. give me a cloak and it'll have no better description than 'rude'. also, logis do everything better already, dont let them have cloaks too. that would be lame, and if you're hellbent on letting them fit it. make it so they cant fit anything but a standard weapon with no mods. just to prove the point thats it really a scout tool. I've been getting snuck up on by you guys a lot :) #shittycoding
mollerz Minja Scouts 1406	Posted - 2013.12.20 20:18:00 - [3] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Korvin Lomont wrote: A good bonus to compensate could be that only scouts can move or sprint while cloaking is active let every other suit break the cloak when they move.... There's going to be a "shimmer" effect on cloaks which makes you not-quite-invisible. Movement will make it worse. It's been proposed that this shimmer would be greatly reduced on Scouts. You don't break cloak by moving, but you become LESS invisible, and Scouts don't take as hard a hit as other suits. If they do it right, it'll be good. If they do it wrong, the movement will expose you obviously enough that even a Scout might as well be breaking cloak if they try to run. I picture basically playing red light green light lol. #shittycoding
mollerz Minja Scouts 1406	Posted - 2013.12.20 20:21:00 - [4] - Quote Django Quik wrote: I mentioned this before elsewhere but ingame descriptions are so horrendously out of date that they should not be taken as any current or future intention for anything at all. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken seriously. I realize that CCP is just basically sloppy as all ****, but c'mon. Get a fricken copyrighter intern to do a sweep and adjust everything for accuracy. It really is shameful how much information is missing. LAZY. #shittycoding
mollerz Minja Scouts 1406	Posted - 2013.12.20 20:37:00 - [5] - Quote Krom Ganesh wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: It's been confirmed as an equipment for a long time, NOT a module. The reason is because they want to add it in soon, but they don't have any interface currently for active modules on dropsuits. So why go through all the work of creating that just for one item when they can instead make it an equipment and then activate it from the equipment wheel. Just makes more sense for CCP. Because CCP has the logistics class which they plan to be the best at using equipment. However, the cloak and things like e-war, hardeners, etc. are not things that the logi should excel at using but will if they are implemented as equipment. (Not to mention they just make more sense as being a part of the suit and not an outside device) It makes more sense to update the interface to include active modules because it is work that gives CCP more freedom in how to add new content to the game. Creating a game can't be about taking the easiest path, it requires taking the best path that creates a good foundation to build the game upon. Equipment slots in dust seem to be medium slots in eve. I felt this especially became so when they introduced scanning equipment. It is a shame they went the route of equipment, and not the route they took in Eve. A high slot makes the most sense when you factor in achieving parity between the two settings. The covert ops cloak should be included with the regular cloak, and only fitted by light suits. Pilot suits should be exempt of course, but free to fit the regular cloak. I don't mind if logis have a lesser cloak, they just make juicier targets is all. If a scout gets two equipment slots and the cloak is activated on the equipment wheel is there really any difference? Well, it makes the scout more powerful if it's an Eq slot. I get to keep all my shielding/dam modding capabilities. I just shudder to think I am going to have to use that sloppy ass janky equipment wheel to go in and out of cloaking. It already is a huge ***** just to throw out a compact nano hive sometimes. Not to mention- Then I can't hold my knives while I am cloaked. It would render cloaking useless for assassination purposes making the minja scout suit gimped once again. #shittycoding
mollerz Minja Scouts 1406	Posted - 2013.12.20 20:44:00 - [6] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Also realize that most scouts won't use it to sneak RIGHT up onto the target. I will probably end up using mine to stage ambushes and to make hasty get-aways. Think of it this way. Why have a cloak going when nobody can see you? Use the cloak to traverse high visibility areas, and let it recharge while you are hidden. Use it for ambushes. Kill 2 targets, and the rest start running after you. Retreat into room. Stand in corner. Cloak. They walk in, don't see anything, and then continue moving, thinking that the scout has run off elsewhere. If they don't see you cloak, they can't know that you have one on. Play smart people The minja suit has the highest walk speed of any suit, so fitted with knives, you would sneak right up to a target. Every scout would find a different use based on a role. That's the sandbox way, and that is the long standing eve way. To relegate the cloak to only be used one way defeats it's purpose. The cloak is a tool that, in the right scouts hands, will be used for infiltration, counter-espionage, and assassination. Evasion will be one primary use for it, but assassination will be as well. I already think I know how I will use it, just as you do by your own example. There is no guarantee it will be easily used in any way if it is equipment. Oh, and to clarify an above posters question, there is no doubt it should be an active module and not a passive one. The time you can remain cloaked should be skill based, and amount to a few minutes (not 20 seconds). #shittycoding
mollerz Minja Scouts 1407	Posted - 2013.12.21 01:08:00 - [7] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Korvin Lomont wrote: I fear that scouts won't be a good choice for cloaking equipment unless they get a HUGE boost to fitting reqs. Scouts have the lowest CPU rating(apart from commandos I think) and not that much PG as well. So any medium suit will have a good chance to have more overall effective cloaked fittings. A good bonus to compensate could be that only scouts can move or sprint while cloaking is active let every other suit break the cloak when they move.... And that is a very important point that we need to make to CCP. My suggestion for this is to make the cloaking equipment cost about at least 350 CPU and about 80 PG which is enough to take up more than half the space of a Logistics Mk.0. But give the scout a fitting bonus of -99% reduction in CPU/PG usage of the item. As a result, the scout will only need just less than 5 points of CPU/PG to fit it. That would be good. I liked your bringing up the covert ops cloak especially. If they develop this so you have to hold a scanner like device while running around cloaked it will be an instant loser. It is a shame they, once again, forged on with a dead in the water design. One more thing I won't use meant for scouts Just like when scanners came out.. oops! Can't fit them due to no CPU. Regardless, I hope they overhaul everything much better for infantry than they did for vehicles. #shittycoding
mollerz Minja Scouts 1407	Posted - 2013.12.21 01:10:00 - [8] - Quote Roger Cordill wrote: Message from Godin: Learn to read: Snip of lameness Sorry what was that? Godin's small pecker in your mouth is making it hard to understand you. #shittycoding
mollerz Minja Scouts 1409	Posted - 2013.12.21 17:34:00 - [9] - Quote OZAROW wrote: I love how it says unmatched in stealth an hand to hand combat, yet it's base melee is horrible , even with my passive h2h at 3 it's only 100 I know. It's kind of a joke. The little guy who thinks he's tuff. You can just hear the heavies laughing The only thing melee is good for on a scout is to avoid the slash animation misfire. Another thing about their concept of melee and hand to hand differentiation is that melee is commonly referred to and accepted as combat with an edged weapon. They should just make melee and knives the same thing, and then let us use mybrofibil to boost knife and melee damage and drop the silly notion of having to use sidearm dam mods to buff knives. #shittycoding
mollerz Minja Scouts 1409	Posted - 2013.12.21 17:46:00 - [10] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: What do you guys think? All of that is awesome man. I hope you bent that to their ear in their design phase! With REs, wouldn't the act of dropping the first RE break your cloak? The RE object falling out of the cloak field would break it no? Knives- I think you should be able to have them equipped while maintaining the cloak. Or maybe minja knives only allow it? The point being, you can't charge your knives or you'd break cloak. The energy from the charge hitting the blades would break the shimmer, if you will. So let's say it is equipment, that means you'd have to break cloak to switch to a weapon or equipment, then fire or use equipment. Very unwieldy and basically worthless. But, if you could switch tot he cloak equipment, and then activate, then switch to a weapon/equipment while not breaking your cloak... well, it would be sloppy but somewhat useable. Truly, the CCP way. #shittycoding

mollerz Minja Scouts 1409	Posted - 2013.12.21 17:48:00 - [11] - Quote Kasira Vorrikesh wrote: As for how I'd like it to work: always on. You move, you shimmer. You move fast, you shimmer rapidly. You stop, you go completely invisible after, say, 5 seconds. Everything you said is pretty cool, save that part. You should immediately go invisible. Or it should be 1s and reduced by skill to 0s. #shittycoding
mollerz Minja Scouts 1414	Posted - 2013.12.21 20:31:00 - [12] - Quote OZAROW wrote: mollerz wrote: OZAROW wrote: I love how it says unmatched in stealth an hand to hand combat, yet it's base melee is horrible , even with my passive h2h at 3 it's only 100 I know. It's kind of a joke. The little guy who thinks he's tuff. You can just hear the heavies laughing The only thing melee is good for on a scout is to avoid the slash animation misfire. Another thing about their concept of melee and hand to hand differentiation is that melee is commonly referred to and accepted as combat with an edged weapon. They should just make melee and knives the same thing, and then let us use mybrofibil to boost knife and melee damage and drop the silly notion of having to use sidearm dam mods to buff knives. Askmusturd but I believe in chrome melee on scout was the highest or close to in game, an back then I think myro worked on knives That is correct. The scout B suit had something like 200 melee damage and was the highest of all suits. #shittycoding