I liked tanking mechanics back in 1.6, felt like the tanks had more weight..... but in many ways the tanks needed a bit of a buff and some reformatting, this 1.7 is a bit intense but that will slowly balance out over time.

I also liked it because in last 2 weeks I was progressively getting stronger and strong in my tank gameplay to where 44/0, 52/1, 64/2 were becoming entirely achievable on a regular basis (no this is not my main).

Good post. Detailed arguments supported with facts illustrating this uncomfortable gaming dynamic that has crept in. I think it's pretty clear now there's a problem - I think we're just waiting for some kind of CCP action, but I think this will be in 1.8 rather than some kind of hot fix (although they hot fixed one of the most ridiculous issues - the speed). I'm pretty sure by the end of the page your thread will be hijacked by one of the usual fallacies "it should require teamwork to take down a tank" or "My tank costs a lot, it should be hard to destroy" or maybe just some good old fashioned ones like "you're just not good", "you're not supposed to solo a tank", "you're just stupid"....

I think tanks and AV would be perfectly balanced right now if tanks cost about 4x as much. Quadruple the price and people won't be inclined to keep spamming tank after tank because one tank loss and u probably break even for the game or even go negative. This will reduce a lot of casual takers spamming cheap ass militia tanks.

If the constant flow of cheap tanks were reduced than a smart AV/tank squad could remove the tank threats or at least keep them at bay.

Increase the price and a lot of the problems with tank spamming will solve themselves.

Tanks shouldn't be paper, nor should AV KO a smart tanker. Things are simply imbalanced. Proto AV can barely scratch militia tanks, making every level below pointless. Since both true tankers and AV have had their asses nerved to hell and back we all need to discuss a option that makes us both a worthy blue dot on the field. Something worth having and a viable counters for all.

Best I've been able to come up with so far is that HAVs should be basically quite weak, but the owner can switch them into "crew mode" in which it takes 3 people to operate them, at which point they become beasts.

In crew mode the front gunner gets the driving controls; main gunner gets a limited field of view; top gunner gets the external view and is the only one who can activate modules. The tank gets a massive increase to EHP, and a significant increase in speed.

This then gets balanced around a tank crew of 3 fighting an AV squad of 3.

I think tanks and AV would be perfectly balanced right now if tanks cost about 4x as much. Quadruple the price and people won't be inclined to keep spamming tank after tank because one tank loss and u probably break even for the game or even go negative. This will reduce a lot of casual takers spamming cheap ass militia tanks.

If the constant flow of cheap tanks were reduced than a smart AV/tank squad could remove the tank threats or at least keep them at bay.

Increase the price and a lot of the problems with tank spamming will solve themselves.

Basicly I am not all against cheap (or cheaper) HAV's. HAV Pilots need a way to make profit with their passion like all of us. But they need multiple viable counters as well and in this regard CCP has somewhat screwed the hole balance.

Also the tank is the only vehicle where the driver can drive and shoot the main gun (I now ADS could this as well but the ADS is variant).

IMHO HAV spamming would not be a problem if std AV would be a viable thread to them. And by AV I do not mean only the FG. Currently it takes more than a whole clip of a std SL (on max Skill) to bring down a militia tank without any modules fitted. Halfway properly fitted militia HAV can take a whole clip of a Proto SL thats a bit of. Sure Forges still work pretty good but heavies are fat and slow and even easier targets for tanks and infantry than medium/light AV. So unless they are tower forging even forge gunners are a threat that can be easily dealt with.

Tanker in my corp supports thisGǪ Would rather simply drive a tank and let all guns be manned by other players so he can focus on driving/ positioning. Though I don't think a tank should be weak. Main turret and driver separate.

I don't like not having remote reps and shield transfers, I liked using those modules on HAVs. It really did help and was pretty fun but I never gained WP from it. I do like seeing the vehicles but I wish the logi modules were still there. I could keep a good HAV pilot on the field with reps and teamwork but now there is nothing to do except blow them up. Many of the HAVs only have the main gun now, that isn't always fun either.

as much as you made some valuable points about HAVs , there were so many flaws in your arguments about HAVs . You like so many others pointed out that tanks were viable in 1.6 if you utilised team work how ever no matter how much team work I used when piloting havs I could still be popped by invisible solo av users who required absolutely no team work , only the ability to gain high ground and spam. Yes with extreme team work i.e. 4 people could operate a hav i.e. 3 inside gunning and 1 with a logi lav repping but all 4 people could be solod by 1 assault forge gunner this was not balance nor fair.

Now in 1.7 havs actually have a chance to react and blackout of situations rather than being instsa popped. it is more than possible now to pop maddys with cbr swarms and gunlogis with forges and plasma cannons ( I have tested all 3 and still able to solo tanks when I catch them on cool down) I personally like to run missiles or rails so I depend on my co gunners for anti infantry , this build actually requires allot of work to make std havs viable and cost effective ( if I loose 1 gunlogi im grinding 2 games to pay for it now apposed to the 5-10 games back in 1.6.

The real problem isn't std havs being op its mlt tank spam is op , since the release of 1.7 my primary job as a dedicated tanker ( over 15 mill sp) has been to demolish enemy tanks and I have popped over 600 since the release of 1.7 granted about 80% of them were militia tank rambos but if your team even has 1 vet tanker on your side youll see an end to the enemy's tank spam in minutes. just my opinion.

you meantioned pre 1.7 balance without mentioning that all infantry was invisable outside the 50m mark.


alowing AV infantry to just stand in open spaces spamming without any danger whatsoever, and without the tank knowing where to properly retreat to unless he had boots on the ground.


tankers used teamwork in the form of AV spotters so that they diddnt get insta blapped by invisable people 400m away.


you realise that the numbers of AV damage as a percent of total heath havnt really changed right?

now its about 80% of the damage you used to do pre 1.7 when hardeners are on

and about 150% the damage you used to do pre 1.7 when they are off.


thats not a huge difference when all defences are up.

the real difference is AV isnt invisable anymore.

dude if I had remote reps on my gunlogi I don't think there would be any thing that could stop me apart from an evenly machete tank and pilot crew.

I have asked for severall fixes to the mlt tank spam from removing 1 low from the sica and 1 high from the soma pard with a 3.5% pg/cpu nerf this its self would end the mlt tank spam as quickly as I do when I enter a game.

Unfortunately, this paired with the AV nerf would make skilled tanks and skilled tankers very, VERY hard to kill as the only real effective counter would be another highly skilled tanker . The only problem with militia tanks is they are too damn cheap. By increasing the cost you limit how many people would be willing to spam then over and over thought a game but you don't reduce the militia tanks ability to help destroy or slow down enemy tanks when they really need to.

Unfortunately, this paired with the AV nerf would make skilled tanks and skilled tankers very, VERY hard to kill as the only real effective counter would be another highly skilled tanker . The only problem with militia tanks is they are too damn cheap. By increasing the cost you limit how many people would be willing to spam then over and over thought a game but you don't reduce the militia tanks ability to help destroy or slow down enemy tanks when they really need to.

you meantioned pre 1.7 balance without mentioning that all infantry was invisable outside the 50m mark.


alowing AV infantry to just stand in open spaces spamming without any danger whatsoever, and without the tank knowing where to properly retreat to unless he had boots on the ground.


tankers used teamwork in the form of AV spotters so that they diddnt get insta blapped by invisable people 400m away.


you realise that the numbers of AV damage as a percent of total heath havnt really changed right?

now its about 80% of the damage you used to do pre 1.7 when hardeners are on

and about 150% the damage you used to do pre 1.7 when they are off.


thats not a huge difference when all defences are up.

the real difference is AV isnt invisable anymore.


logi LAVs wernt the only form of teamwork, boots ont he ground are important for spotting targets asnd tracking them across the map, knowing theres a forge at C before you get there is a wonderful thing, and shooting that foge so your dropship/tank buddy can come mop up the rest is what most tankers always did.


you diddnt see the teamwork becuase it was simple communication between squad members....

I think tanks and AV would be perfectly balanced right now if tanks cost about 4x as much. Quadruple the price and people won't be inclined to keep spamming tank after tank because one tank loss and u probably break even for the game or even go negative. This will reduce a lot of casual tankers spamming cheap ass militia tanks.

If the constant flow of cheap tanks were reduced than a smart AV/tank squad could remove the tank threats or at least keep them at bay.

Increase the price and a lot of the problems with tank spamming will solve themselves.

Basicly I am not all against cheap (or cheaper) HAV's. HAV Pilots need a way to make profit with their passion like all of us. But they need multiple viable counters as well and in this regard CCP has somewhat screwed the hole balance.

Also the tank is the only vehicle where the driver can drive and shoot the main gun (I now ADS could this as well but the ADS is variant).

IMHO HAV spamming would not be a problem if std AV would be a viable thread to them. And by AV I do not mean only the FG. Currently it takes more than a whole clip of a std SL (on max Skill) to bring down a militia tank without any modules fitted. Halfway properly fitted militia HAV can take a whole clip of a Proto SL thats a bit of. Sure Forges still work pretty good but heavies are fat and slow and even easier targets for tanks and infantry than medium/light AV. So unless they are tower forging even forge gunners are a threat that can be easily dealt with.

as much as you made some valuable points about HAVs , there were so many flaws in your arguments about HAVs . You like so many others pointed out that tanks were viable in 1.6 if you utilised team work how ever no matter how much team work I used when piloting havs I could still be popped by invisible solo av users who required absolutely no team work , only the ability to gain high ground and spam. Yes with extreme team work i.e. 4 people could operate a hav i.e. 3 inside gunning and 1 with a logi lav repping but all 4 people could be solod by 1 assault forge gunner this was not balance nor fair.

Now in 1.7 havs actually have a chance to react and blackout of situations rather than being instsa popped. it is more than possible now to pop maddys with cbr swarms and gunlogis with forges and plasma cannons ( I have tested all 3 and still able to solo tanks when I catch them on cool down) I personally like to run missiles or rails so I depend on my co gunners for anti infantry , this build actually requires allot of work to make std havs viable and cost effective ( if I loose 1 gunlogi im grinding 2 games to pay for it now apposed to the 5-10 games back in 1.6.

The real problem isn't std havs being op its mlt tank spam is op , since the release of 1.7 my primary job as a dedicated tanker ( over 15 mill sp) has been to demolish enemy tanks and I have popped over 600 since the release of 1.7 granted about 80% of them were militia tank rambos but if your team even has 1 vet tanker on your side youll see an end to the enemy's tank spam in minutes. just my opinion.

I don't like not having remote reps and shield transfers, I liked using those modules on HAVs. It really did help and was pretty fun but I never gained WP from it. I do like seeing the vehicles but I wish the logi modules were still there. I could keep a good HAV pilot on the field with reps and teamwork but now there is nothing to do except blow them up. Many of the HAVs only have the main gun now, that isn't always fun either.

I think it is absurd they can get out and put a tank back in their pocket if things don't go their way.

Usually they get out in full proto gear and gun me down anyway.

Tanks should:

1. Stay spawned once spawned untill end of match, period.

2. Tank drivers should only be allowed to wear a certain dropsuit (if any at all).. Come on now a guy driving a tank in a heavy dropsuit that can bail out and attack on foot in an instant? Yeah, ok.

I see in a lot of threads the issue of a dedicated anti-vehicle skill tree for infantry, which if specced into would calm one side of the argument, notably a) The skill investment in tanks is disproportionate to the skill investment required to build an AV fit - which if we sum it up is basically investment in a forge/swarm and some AV grenades (excluding suit of course, which is mutualised with your other skills). The AV tree could have lots of interesting stuff, like the ability to use webifier grenades, increase damage on certain weapons that are exclusively AV, give immunity to vehicle scanners, etc.

These are just ideas to bring to the storm...

When skilling back into Vehicle Upgrades with my Heavy I noticed that the Armour and Shield skills donGÇÖt mention a 5% increase to Armour or Shield health. If that was taken out, then I think it should be put back in. The reason is that I feel someone who is skilled into vehicles should be more effective, even in a militia vehicle, than someone who is not skilled into them. If AV could easily cut down someone who did not have the skills, then it would greatly reduce Tank spam.

F*** 'em, something is wrong and needs to be addressed. Glad you liked it. Hopefully those tankers that know something is wrong will have some input as a to how to rebalance it all. Every voice should be heard and taken with a large shot of penicillinGǪ everyone is biased myself includedGǪ but if people don't speak up arguments can't be made.

I think tanks and AV would be perfectly balanced right now if tanks cost about 4x as much. Quadruple the price and people won't be inclined to keep spamming tank after tank because one tank loss and u probably break even for the game or even go negative. This will reduce a lot of casual tankers spamming cheap ass militia tanks.

If the constant flow of cheap tanks were reduced than a smart AV/tank squad could remove the tank threats or at least keep them at bay.

Increase the price and a lot of the problems with tank spamming will solve themselves.

dude if I had remote reps on my gunlogi I don't think there would be any thing that could stop me apart from an evenly machete tank and pilot crew.

I have asked for severall fixes to the mlt tank spam from removing 1 low from the sica and 1 high from the soma pard with a 3.5% pg/cpu nerf this its self would end the mlt tank spam as quickly as I do when I enter a game.

Yes, the OP did make 1.6 sound more rosy than it was, but the rest of his point were mostly valid.

Your points mostly conform to what I am seeing on the battlefield as well. The biggest problem is tank spam by people with no skill points invested in tanks. And, yes, having even one experienced tanker in your squad can make all the difference. But there are not a lot of dedicated tankers, nor do I want to see a lot of dedicated tankers, so we do need to have infantry based AV options available.

I want to see tanking be a role that requires dedication, skill training, and experience. I want it to be rare to see more than 2 tanks on a team. I want those tanks, in the right hands, to pose a significant threat. Because if tanks are powerful, then dedicated AV is important and respected.

I think we both want the same thing ultimately. We want dedicated tankers to be powerful, so that dedicated AV become an important counter. I donGÇÖt think either of us want the masses to be OP in Tanks or AV, because it unbalances the entire match.

In these discussions back in 1.6 we agreed that one AV driving off a tank was almost as good as three AV killing a tank, from a tactical perspective. However right now if I drive off a tank, two more take its place.

So let us, the dedicated Tankers, and the dedicated AV, put our heads together and figure out how to achieve the balance we need.

How about if Tanks could only be recalled behind the Red Line?

This would not work for LAVGÇÖs as their purpose is getting people to where they need to be, and behind the Red Line is not where people need to be, but for HAVGÇÖs it might make sense.

Just an idea, based on this post. Feel free to poke holes in it.

They removed both 5% per level to shield/armor skills, also did it with PG/CPU skills

These 4 skills are availible to infantry

I love how experienced tankers are saying MLT tanks are the problem. It shows a lack of integrity. Many have taken the stance of claiming to not kill infantry. They are trying to pin the blame on the ability to call in cheap MLT tanks.

lets ask a few questions.

what do you think is going to happen to the price of STD tanks if MLT goes up?

How will nerfing MLT tanks help the fact that AV can't effectively counter tanks?

what are these crusaders going to shoot at when there are no MLT tanks?

if it takes 3 AV to deal with a tank and there are 3tanks, how many are left to fight the other 13 guys on the ground?

Do people honestly believe the smoke screen these skilled tankers are putting up?

Be honest here because I play both sides. How many rail tanks does it take to stop vehicles from coming in?

If you don't have a skilled tanker how will you deal with another skilled tanker?

IMO these guys are incapable of seeing anything beyond their own turret. Its the tanking mentality. I have it too. When another tank on my team gets popped in always thinking "better him than me". I think this is something like that. What they do not realize is it will be more like "first him then me".

one more question.

After you get rid of your scapegoat, what will you hide behind?

I personally believe we will then have a crusade against OP tanks and it will come down to buffing AV. Its obvious really. So we see the tankers care nothing for the infantry they are now painting as the victim. They are just buying time until CCP gives us the means to defend ourselves. Its all very short sighted.

a final question. Why wait for balance?

I'm a dropship pilot, and I'm getting pretty ******* pissed that any tom **** or harry can call in a damage stacked sica and camp the redline all game, denying my 8+ million SP and 500k ISK investment because he can hurp a durp de durpda durp so far back in the redline he rarely renders, yet he can still ******* hit me from across the map if I slow down for even a second.

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Yes, people talk of the recall mechanic and it's been distorted from its original use - originally it was if you no longer had a viable tactical need for your vehicle you couldn't just leave it there to be destroyed ,so you recalled it OR what happened a lot more before but happens a lot less now is you got stuck on some map oddity and just couldn't move...

what I see a lot of now, is people recalling while they're taking fire, to save their burning HAV/LAV/Dropship from beind destroyed. Yes, the easy solution is only being able to recall from the redline OR:

1) Having an RDV physically come and pick it up - it takes just as long as the delivery and adds the risk of
a) the RDV being blown up -> recall failed
b) Tells the enemy you are recalling something, so they can do something about it

You could also add the redline restriction to this and this means anyone who wants to recall anything has to scurry all the way back to the edge of the battlefield and not get their RDV shot down in the process.

Of course it wouldn't solve the problem of redline sniping - but that's another issue altogether...

Yea, so what I have to say involves tanksGǪ figures right?

Tanks in 1.6 were viable given teamwork. You Had remote reps on LAVS, HAVS, and Dropships. Spider Tanking or LAV/ Tank spider was viable. YET no tanks I ever saw chose to use teamwork apart from 1 or 2 corps I saw in pc using a logi LAV for what it was intended to do. Remote repair was thrown out the window for Murder taxis and other horses**t. I do acknowledge that AV could wreck you in 5 secs if you were stoopid, but if you were you deserved it. Yet if u used remote reps, and used them well it requires AV to use teamwork as well. I remember first pc where I saw a Logi LAV doing what it was supposed to. Took 2 min and 3 guys to get around it (kill em) after they got stooped. A Tank should not dominate without support be it infantry or another vehicle... you were given the option yet chose not to use it.

Even though you cried I still saw people like Mavado running matches in PC going 20/0, The true tankers. WIth Swarms and forges on his ass simply because he knew when to retreat ask for help and push like an actual teammate and bad ass.

What I find funny nowGǪ Tanks are op and are finally using teamwork? Drop 4 send two in, if they are hit swap the other two out while the others outrun swarms and either wait for modules to come back or simply recall and drop again. Infantry running av is pressed to deal with new tanks while others recover. Nor can we hit the recovering tanks given their speed and specifically swarm lock rangeGǪ. Or send in all 4, deny enemy Vehicles, Clean up AV unchallenged (simply because running what is necessary to make an impact is too expensive and people rarely run it anymore) , and retreat when needed while other tanks finish dusting the battlefield.

Argument about sp invested into an AV suit to take you out? Ha laughableGǪ


Proto suit.
Proto AV wep./Proficiency/ Pg reduction/ reload/ Capacity
AV nades.
Cpu/ PG to fit the goods.
Proto sidearm/ Proficiency/ Pg reduction/ reload/ Capacity (to make you less of a liability to the team being specialized/ able to hold your own with a group rather then cower)
Remotes/ hives
Damage Mods

all circa 10 mil. Yes a lot of it is crossoverGǪ But your vehicle skills are too? Run a beast tank and suit with 15 mil sp? Yea try 20 or 25 mil don't expect to be an epic tanker and infantry w/o time invested.

Yet given the Sp invested into AV and the current cost of my AV suit (152,535 isK), the 3 in 5 chance I get stomped on the way to the tank, and does not have the anti infantry ability of the forge (be it opportunistic and a skill setGǪ well, kind of). What do I run???? Militia rail tank, no SP investedGǪ Costs 68k Isk. kills, maddys, gunlogis, militia tanks, infantryGǪ Best part is I don't know how to drive a tank but I'm not an idiot and avoid situations that I would capitalize on as an Av'er. Only really hunt tanks went 5/0 yesterday against 2 maddys and 3 militia. Yet when I do try to capitalize as an AV'er with some dumbA$$ in a situation where he should be killed. Zoom ZOOm ZOOOM.

Tanks shouldn't be paper, nor should AV KO a smart tanker. Things are simply imbalanced. Proto AV can barely scratch militia tanks, making every level below pointless. Since both true tankers and AV have had their asses nerved to hell and back we all need to discuss a option that makes us both a worthy blue dot on the field. Something worth having and a viable counters for all.

I've been thinking about recall and combat. If we're all honest with each other then we have to admit that a mechanic that was intended to prevent players from being locked into a vehicle all match out of economic concerns is now being used as a combat mechanic. That's not what was intended and it is distorting the battlefield experience and the balancing conversation we're engaged in.

Recall for tanks behind the redline only makes balance and makes sense. +1.

if you see me in game and want to gun in the tank mail me and ill land one with turrets for gunners . I like to encourage infantry to get in and gun as the small turrets are actually quite effective now.

the same goes for any one.

Remote Rep and Shield Transfer modules will return one day. CCP simplified everything to make balancing easier, so we need to balance what we have now, then add stuff in while trying to maintain that balance.

Wrote this before the change, still applies and is why current tanking model will NEVER work.

Tanking issues

Wrote this before the change, still applies and is why current tanking model will NEVER work.

Tanking issues