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Six 7
ROGUE SPADES
0
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Posted - 2013.12.19 10:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
Yea, so what I have to say involves tanksGǪ figures right?
Tanks in 1.6 were viable given teamwork. You Had remote reps on LAVS, HAVS, and Dropships. Spider Tanking or LAV/ Tank spider was viable. YET no tanks I ever saw chose to use teamwork apart from 1 or 2 corps I saw in pc using a logi LAV for what it was intended to do. Remote repair was thrown out the window for Murder taxis and other horses**t. I do acknowledge that AV could wreck you in 5 secs if you were stoopid, but if you were you deserved it. Yet if u used remote reps, and used them well it requires AV to use teamwork as well. I remember first pc where I saw a Logi LAV doing what it was supposed to. Took 2 min and 3 guys to get around it (kill em) after they got stooped. A Tank should not dominate without support be it infantry or another vehicle... you were given the option yet chose not to use it.
Even though you cried I still saw people like Mavado running matches in PC going 20/0, The true tankers. WIth Swarms and forges on his ass simply because he knew when to retreat ask for help and push like an actual teammate and bad ass.
What I find funny nowGǪ Tanks are op and are finally using teamwork? Drop 4 send two in, if they are hit swap the other two out while the others outrun swarms and either wait for modules to come back or simply recall and drop again. Infantry running av is pressed to deal with new tanks while others recover. Nor can we hit the recovering tanks given their speed and specifically swarm lock rangeGǪ. Or send in all 4, deny enemy Vehicles, Clean up AV unchallenged (simply because running what is necessary to make an impact is too expensive and people rarely run it anymore) , and retreat when needed while other tanks finish dusting the battlefield.
Argument about sp invested into an AV suit to take you out? Ha laughableGǪ
Proto suit. Proto AV wep./Proficiency/ Pg reduction/ reload/ Capacity AV nades. Cpu/ PG to fit the goods. Proto sidearm/ Proficiency/ Pg reduction/ reload/ Capacity (to make you less of a liability to the team being specialized/ able to hold your own with a group rather then cower) Remotes/ hives Damage Mods
all circa 10 mil. Yes a lot of it is crossoverGǪ But your vehicle skills are too? Run a beast tank and suit with 15 mil sp? Yea try 20 or 25 mil don't expect to be an epic tanker and infantry w/o time invested.
Yet given the Sp invested into AV and the current cost of my AV suit (152,535 isK), the 3 in 5 chance I get stomped on the way to the tank, and does not have the anti infantry ability of the forge (be it opportunistic and a skill setGǪ well, kind of). What do I run???? Militia rail tank, no SP investedGǪ Costs 68k Isk. kills, maddys, gunlogis, militia tanks, infantryGǪ Best part is I don't know how to drive a tank but I'm not an idiot and avoid situations that I would capitalize on as an Av'er. Only really hunt tanks went 5/0 yesterday against 2 maddys and 3 militia. Yet when I do try to capitalize as an AV'er with some dumbA$$ in a situation where he should be killed. Zoom ZOOm ZOOOM.
Tanks shouldn't be paper, nor should AV KO a smart tanker. Things are simply imbalanced. Proto AV can barely scratch militia tanks, making every level below pointless. Since both true tankers and AV have had their asses nerved to hell and back we all need to discuss a option that makes us both a worthy blue dot on the field. Something worth having and a viable counters for all.
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Six 7
ROGUE SPADES
2
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Posted - 2013.12.19 11:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
Leithe Askarii wrote:I liked tanking mechanics back in 1.6, felt like the tanks had more weight..... but in many ways the tanks needed a bit of a buff and some reformatting, this 1.7 is a bit intense but that will slowly balance out over time.
I also liked it because in last 2 weeks I was progressively getting stronger and strong in my tank gameplay to where 44/0, 52/1, 64/2 were becoming entirely achievable on a regular basis (no this is not my main).
Totally agree they needed a revampGǪ
Yet what this feels like right now is stress testing rather then actual gameplay for tanks. |
Six 7
ROGUE SPADES
2
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Posted - 2013.12.19 11:11:00 -
[3] - Quote
Justicar Karnellia wrote:Good post. Detailed arguments supported with facts illustrating this uncomfortable gaming dynamic that has crept in. I think it's pretty clear now there's a problem - I think we're just waiting for some kind of CCP action, but I think this will be in 1.8 rather than some kind of hot fix (although they hot fixed one of the most ridiculous issues - the speed). I'm pretty sure by the end of the page your thread will be hijacked by one of the usual fallacies "it should require teamwork to take down a tank" or "My tank costs a lot, it should be hard to destroy" or maybe just some good old fashioned ones like "you're just not good", "you're not supposed to solo a tank", "you're just stupid"....
F*** 'em, something is wrong and needs to be addressed. Glad you liked it. Hopefully those tankers that know something is wrong will have some input as a to how to rebalance it all. Every voice should be heard and taken with a large shot of penicillinGǪ everyone is biased myself includedGǪ but if people don't speak up arguments can't be made. |
Six 7
ROGUE SPADES
2
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Posted - 2013.12.19 11:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
Izlare Lenix wrote:I think tanks and AV would be perfectly balanced right now if tanks cost about 4x as much. Quadruple the price and people won't be inclined to keep spamming tank after tank because one tank loss and u probably break even for the game or even go negative. This will reduce a lot of casual takers spamming cheap ass militia tanks.
If the constant flow of cheap tanks were reduced than a smart AV/tank squad could remove the tank threats or at least keep them at bay.
Increase the price and a lot of the problems with tank spamming will solve themselves.
keep the ideas com in' ladies and gents |
Six 7
ROGUE SPADES
3
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Posted - 2013.12.19 11:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
R F Gyro wrote:Six 7 wrote:Tanks shouldn't be paper, nor should AV KO a smart tanker. Things are simply imbalanced. Proto AV can barely scratch militia tanks, making every level below pointless. Since both true tankers and AV have had their asses nerved to hell and back we all need to discuss a option that makes us both a worthy blue dot on the field. Something worth having and a viable counters for all. Best I've been able to come up with so far is that HAVs should be basically quite weak, but the owner can switch them into "crew mode" in which it takes 3 people to operate them, at which point they become beasts. In crew mode the front gunner gets the driving controls; main gunner gets a limited field of view; top gunner gets the external view and is the only one who can activate modules. The tank gets a massive increase to EHP, and a significant increase in speed. This then gets balanced around a tank crew of 3 fighting an AV squad of 3.
Tanker in my corp supports thisGǪ Would rather simply drive a tank and let all guns be manned by other players so he can focus on driving/ positioning. Though I don't think a tank should be weak. Main turret and driver separate. |
Six 7
ROGUE SPADES
3
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Posted - 2013.12.19 11:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
Korvin Lomont wrote:Izlare Lenix wrote:I think tanks and AV would be perfectly balanced right now if tanks cost about 4x as much. Quadruple the price and people won't be inclined to keep spamming tank after tank because one tank loss and u probably break even for the game or even go negative. This will reduce a lot of casual takers spamming cheap ass militia tanks.
If the constant flow of cheap tanks were reduced than a smart AV/tank squad could remove the tank threats or at least keep them at bay.
Increase the price and a lot of the problems with tank spamming will solve themselves. Basicly I am not all against cheap (or cheaper) HAV's. HAV Pilots need a way to make profit with their passion like all of us. But they need multiple viable counters as well and in this regard CCP has somewhat screwed the hole balance. Also the tank is the only vehicle where the driver can drive and shoot the main gun (I now ADS could this as well but the ADS is variant). IMHO HAV spamming would not be a problem if std AV would be a viable thread to them. And by AV I do not mean only the FG. Currently it takes more than a whole clip of a std SL (on max Skill) to bring down a militia tank without any modules fitted. Halfway properly fitted militia HAV can take a whole clip of a Proto SL thats a bit of. Sure Forges still work pretty good but heavies are fat and slow and even easier targets for tanks and infantry than medium/light AV. So unless they are tower forging even forge gunners are a threat that can be easily dealt with.
Goood point about profit and keeping players that enjoy piloting a floatGǪ |
Six 7
ROGUE SPADES
4
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Posted - 2013.12.19 11:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
pegasis prime wrote:as much as you made some valuable points about HAVs , there were so many flaws in your arguments about HAVs . You like so many others pointed out that tanks were viable in 1.6 if you utilised team work how ever no matter how much team work I used when piloting havs I could still be popped by invisible solo av users who required absolutely no team work , only the ability to gain high ground and spam. Yes with extreme team work i.e. 4 people could operate a hav i.e. 3 inside gunning and 1 with a logi lav repping but all 4 people could be solod by 1 assault forge gunner this was not balance nor fair.
Now in 1.7 havs actually have a chance to react and blackout of situations rather than being instsa popped. it is more than possible now to pop maddys with cbr swarms and gunlogis with forges and plasma cannons ( I have tested all 3 and still able to solo tanks when I catch them on cool down) I personally like to run missiles or rails so I depend on my co gunners for anti infantry , this build actually requires allot of work to make std havs viable and cost effective ( if I loose 1 gunlogi im grinding 2 games to pay for it now apposed to the 5-10 games back in 1.6.
The real problem isn't std havs being op its mlt tank spam is op , since the release of 1.7 my primary job as a dedicated tanker ( over 15 mill sp) has been to demolish enemy tanks and I have popped over 600 since the release of 1.7 granted about 80% of them were militia tank rambos but if your team even has 1 vet tanker on your side youll see an end to the enemy's tank spam in minutes. just my opinion.
Militia tank spam is definitely a problem. agree. I do have vet tankers and watch them end the tank spam be it a good missile/ rail or well positioned blaster. AV simply doesn't have an effective counter without reducing the overall effectiveness of a team Vs. dropping a militia tank. In the op I stated I saw a logi Lav doing is actual job and spent 2 min and 3 people in a PC trying to kill it. 2 min in a pc is a decider and in this situation it wasGǪ we lost. Tanks were brutally underpowered in 1.6 but it didn't stop experienced tankers from still being a HUGE asset in a battle. Invisi swarms aside. Why weren't the previous mechanics w/ remote reps revamped to make tanking and av'ing both team work oriented??? my thoughts |
Six 7
ROGUE SPADES
4
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Posted - 2013.12.19 12:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:you meantioned pre 1.7 balance without mentioning that all infantry was invisable outside the 50m mark.
alowing AV infantry to just stand in open spaces spamming without any danger whatsoever, and without the tank knowing where to properly retreat to unless he had boots on the ground.
tankers used teamwork in the form of AV spotters so that they diddnt get insta blapped by invisable people 400m away.
you realise that the numbers of AV damage as a percent of total heath havnt really changed right?
now its about 80% of the damage you used to do pre 1.7 when hardeners are on
and about 150% the damage you used to do pre 1.7 when they are off.
thats not a huge difference when all defences are up.
the real difference is AV isnt invisable anymore.
I posted on your topic, defenses down mean nothing when your out of range in 3 secondsGǪ and your talking to the wrong av'er about standing in the open. WIth respect not all av are F***tardsGǪ but yes a lot are |
Six 7
ROGUE SPADES
4
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Posted - 2013.12.19 12:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
Izlare Lenix wrote:pegasis prime wrote:dude if I had remote reps on my gunlogi I don't think there would be any thing that could stop me apart from an evenly machete tank and pilot crew.
I have asked for severall fixes to the mlt tank spam from removing 1 low from the sica and 1 high from the soma pard with a 3.5% pg/cpu nerf this its self would end the mlt tank spam as quickly as I do when I enter a game. Unfortunately, this paired with the AV nerf would make skilled tanks and skilled tankers very, VERY hard to kill as the only real effective counter would be another highly skilled tanker . The only problem with militia tanks is they are too damn cheap. By increasing the cost you limit how many people would be willing to spam then over and over thought a game but you don't reduce the militia tanks ability to help destroy or slow down enemy tanks when they really need to.
I agree with cost being a short term fix for tank spamGǪ but as the game progresses things will become seemingly cheaper to those that are funded by corps or have simply been playing for a long period of time. Leaving the new players which we desperately need getting stomped in pubs and delete the game after their first match they play. Everything needs a counter and I'm not saying that new players should compete on the same level as vets. tank spam wiiill happen there just needs to be a viable option other then tank spam to kill tank spam |
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