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Rynoceros
Rise Of Old Dudes
1558
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Posted - 2013.12.17 13:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm just wondering if someone at CCP has been looking at the list of priorities upside down.
LP Store before P2P Market?
Rifle parity before Dropsuit parity?
Vehicle/AV balance (attempted) without the full line of vehicles or Pilot suits (if they are still coming) ?
Restructuring Orbital/Precision/Tactical Strikes, but still using the same 2500 WP as when squads were only 4 players, and fewer ways to gain WP?
Is there any form of management there or do you guys just implement whatever you want, whenever you want without any rhyme or reason?
I would really like to know the reasoning there.
Make it make sense to me/us.
Alyssa Milano.
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
222
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Posted - 2013.12.17 13:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
Rynoceros wrote:LP Store before P2P Market?
Updating FW to include an LP store is a whole helluva lot easier than the player-to-player market.
Rynoceros wrote:Rifle parity before Dropsuit parity?
Two new weapons are easier to roll out and test than a dozen new dropsuits.
Rynoceros wrote:Vehicle/AV balance (attempted) without the full line of vehicles or Pilot suits (if they are still coming)?
Pilot suits would just add another layer to vehicle balancing, something CCP probably doesn't want to have to account for right now. As far as adding more vehicles, why would they release MORE vehicles when the vehicles they have now are not working as intended.
Rynoceros wrote: Restructuring Orbital/Precision/Tactical Strikes, but still using the same 2500 WP as when squads were only 4 players, and fewer ways to gain WP?
... okay yeah, this is stupid. OBs should probably cost another 500 - 750 WPs. Fair enough.
Most of the above is just common sense. If you were a dev, why would/wouldn't you do the things CCP has done. It's in their best interests to make the game balanced and try to keep us happy.
... for some reason they don't like talking to us about what they want to do in the future, but I guess that is their prerogative.
"I need not food nor water. Your tears alone sustain me." - Ripley Riley
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Rynoceros
Rise Of Old Dudes
1559
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Posted - 2013.12.17 14:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
That stuff was easier to code and put in than **** they've been supposedly working on for a year or more?
Sure.
I mean, I can believe they'd take the easy route, that's what they've done since day 1.
But this is a sign of mismanaged agendas, timelines, and just plain laziness.
(OBs should be 5000 WP)
Alyssa Milano.
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Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1458
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Posted - 2013.12.17 14:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
Yes, the FW changes were easier than the market. The market will be fairly tightly linked to the Eve economy eventually, so the initial market design has to take that into account. Things like all of our rifles, grenades and dropsuits existing in a specific station somewhere in highsec. How do we trade if I'm in Perimeter and you're in Rens? There's things like that going on that are somewhat hidden from us at the moment, though you can notice them if you look closely enough.
They also haven't been working on the market for a year, it's been on the backlog. What they've been working on is content and core mechanics. When they talked about the introduction of LP stores they told us that the FW changes would be ready before the market was, and that the market would come shortly after. It was the right call, FW is more fun than ever (despite the terrible metagame mechanics that give one side all the territory and the other side all the newberries). Completing the FW changes and then sitting on it until the market was ready would have been bad, we'd have been stuck playing the same old game mode for another month.
Need isk? Run pubs, which are identical to the FW mode that was just replaced. |
Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
222
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Posted - 2013.12.17 14:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
Rynoceros wrote:I mean, I can believe they'd take the easy route, that's what they've done since day 1.
You are adorable if you think developing a game is easy. You might be able to point out some shortsightedness on CCP's part, but some of that can be blamed on not knowing the FPS market.
Rynoceros wrote:But this is a sign of mismanaged agendas, timelines, and just plain laziness.
Either you are trolling (which is looking more and more likely) or you have no idea what goes into developing a game.
Rynoceros wrote:OBs should be 5000 WP
Why would you double the cost of an OB when they just increased the squad size by 50%? That is a huge jump in WP cost. You start with a small change then look at the effects of that change over the course of 1 - 3 months. If the change wasn't enough, you make another small change. That's how balancing works.
"I need not food nor water. Your tears alone sustain me." - Ripley Riley
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Rynoceros
Rise Of Old Dudes
1565
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Posted - 2013.12.17 14:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
I didn't say it was easy, I said that these lazy pricks often take the easier route to come to a fairly compromised end.
I know that productive work doesn't usually involve booze in the office on a regular basis, fanboi.
And, not only did add 50% more players to squads, they have added several new ways to gain WP.
But, if you enjoy and support this type of nonsense, have at it.
All of the real players will be on Destiny soon enough and the rest of you can wallow in this filth.
Alyssa Milano.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11304
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Posted - 2013.12.17 14:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
If you can magically solve how Me selling Item X in station A magically appears in Station B where buyer Z in eve then we'd have market already... well that and UI work for console, eve market is something not for the faint of heart of a pure ds3 controller.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Rail and Combat Rifle =// Unlocked
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
223
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Posted - 2013.12.17 15:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
Rynoceros wrote:I didn't say it was easy, I said that these lazy pricks often take the easier route to come to a fairly compromised end.
I know that productive work doesn't usually involve booze in the office on a regular basis, fanboi.
Dust is a flawed game with some huge pieces missing and I'm not blind to that. I also know that CCP's way of doing things is slow and steady, always slow and steady. Make updates, monitor data that results from the updates, add new content, monitor data that results from the new content, make update... etc. etc. etc.
They won't be rushed for you, or me, or anyone else. You either deal with it or leave. If you leave then I have an interesting high-risk, high-reward investment opportunity for your ISK while you are gone. I'd love to talk to you about.
Rynoceros wrote:And, not only did add 50% more players to squads, they have added several new ways to gain WP.
True. So we start with another 3000 WP OB's then see how OB's perform for a while. Knee-jerk reactions like "OB's are bad so double the cost of them" lead to all kinds of problems down the road. That is not the right way to balance things.
Rynoceros wrote:But, if you enjoy and support this type of nonsense, have at it.
All of the real players will be on Destiny soon enough and the rest of you can wallow in this filth.
Destiny does have functional PvE and that is a HUGE draw for players, including myself. If Dust doesn't have PvE by the time Destiny releases and I have a PS4 (Q4 2014) then I will probably leave Dust behind. Honestly, I think we will have PvE by then, but I like having a contingency plan.
"I need not food nor water. Your tears alone sustain me." - Ripley Riley
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Rynoceros
Rise Of Old Dudes
1566
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Posted - 2013.12.17 15:00:00 -
[9] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:If you can magically solve how Me selling Item X in station A magically appears in Station B where buyer Z in eve then we'd have market already... well that and UI work for console, eve market is something not for the faint of heart of a pure ds3 controller.
Why does the Market have to be completely tied to Eve for us to even begin to use it?
Why not a Dust-only Market, with inventory sales and trading, with the Eve stuff coming in as a 3rd party retailer when they get it figured out?
Instead, they just said "Meh, **** it altogether."?
Alyssa Milano.
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Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate
Amarr Empire
939
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Posted - 2013.12.17 15:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:If you can magically solve how Me selling Item X in station A magically appears in Station B where buyer Z in eve then we'd have market already...
Because this is clearly much more lore breaking than Me magically teleporting half way across the known galaxy to participate in a 10 minute mini-war being led by a giant warbarge that also magically teleported over the target planet. 
!
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
223
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Posted - 2013.12.17 15:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
Rynoceros wrote:Why does the Market have to be completely tied to Eve for us to even begin to use it?
One of Dust's draws is it's integration with Eve Online. CCP is banking on people getting interested in an FPS that is persistent and involves existing MMO universe filled with intrigue, greed, and rivalries. Creating a Dust market inside a bubble is pretty much nullifying the Eve + Dust link.
Rynoceros wrote:Why not a Dust-only Market, with inventory sales and trading, with the Eve stuff coming in as a 3rd party retailer when they get it figured out?
If I was CCP I wouldn't double my work unless I had to. Why create a Dust-only marketplace only to turn around a matter of months later to break it down and integrate it with Eve Online? Work smart, not hard.
"I need not food nor water. Your tears alone sustain me." - Ripley Riley
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Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1458
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Posted - 2013.12.17 15:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
Teleporting isn't really lore breaking. Capsuleers do it all the time, it's called clone jumping. You request a medical clone (respawn point) be set up at your destination and commit suicide. This is why the voice on the barge asks us to not commit suicide in public areas.
As for why the market has to be tied to Eve to begin to use it? Everything we own is already tied to Eve, and the market has to work with that. They could come up with some utterly terrible hack to get around it, but then they have to rip it all out and rebuild from scratch when the economic integration starts. That's a recipe for disaster. |
Rynoceros
Rise Of Old Dudes
1566
|
Posted - 2013.12.17 15:14:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Rynoceros wrote:Why does the Market have to be completely tied to Eve for us to even begin to use it? One of Dust's draws is it's integration with Eve Online. CCP is banking on people getting interested in an FPS that is persistent and involves existing MMO universe filled with intrigue, greed, and rivalries. Creating a Dust market inside a bubble is pretty much nullifying the Eve + Dust link. Rynoceros wrote:Why not a Dust-only Market, with inventory sales and trading, with the Eve stuff coming in as a 3rd party retailer when they get it figured out? If I was CCP I wouldn't double my work unless I had to. Why create a Dust-only marketplace only to turn around a matter of months later to break it down and integrate it with Eve Online? Work smart, not hard.
You're talking as if I just got here.
They have delayed the Eve/Dust integration several times in several aspects of the game.
At this point, the integration is nearly nonexistent.
Why not have that P2P market ready to sell back LP items, beforehand?
Because they just wanted to push something out to try to appease an increasingly disenfranchised, hostile player base instead of focusing on the basics - and have thrown out another failure.
Alyssa Milano.
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Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1458
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Posted - 2013.12.17 15:15:00 -
[14] - Quote
"Why not have that P2P market ready to sell back LP items, beforehand?"
Because there are only 24 hours in a day, and developers need to sleep once in a while. |
Rynoceros
Rise Of Old Dudes
1566
|
Posted - 2013.12.17 15:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:"Why not have that P2P market ready to sell back LP items, beforehand?"
Because there are only 24 hours in a day, and developers need to sleep once in a while.
If they had started working on it way back when they said they were (open beta) this wouldn't be an issue.
Alyssa Milano.
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
224
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Posted - 2013.12.17 15:25:00 -
[16] - Quote
Rynoceros wrote:They have delayed the Eve/Dust integration several times in several aspects of the game. At this point, the integration is nearly nonexistent.
He says after 1.7 rolled out with an improved FW that shows Dust players how systems are being lost/gained in FW in Eve... the link is forming, but no it isn't happening overnight. It will start with FW and spread to other areas of Dust as each iteration is tested and verified as working.
Also, what areas of Dust/Eve integration have been delayed exactly? I know we haven't seen much integration yet, but I haven't seen any integration pushed back either.
Rynoceros wrote:Why not have that P2P market ready to sell back LP items, beforehand?
Because that would in itself create an imbalance. People could then farm whatever the FotM weapon or dropsuit is then sell it for ludicrous amounts of money. The ISK would flow into the hands of whomever could win the most FW battles with that faction. There aren't enough ISK sinks in Dust to allow such a thing to happen.
Rynoceros wrote:Because they just wanted to push something out to try to appease an increasingly disenfranchised, hostile player base instead of focusing on the basics - and have thrown out another failure.
 What are we talking about here? A tyrannical government neglecting it's citizens? Or a F2P FPS set in the future with laser guns and magic needles that bring you back to life? Seriously... it's just game why you have to be mad
"I need not food nor water. Your tears alone sustain me." - Ripley Riley
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11304
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Posted - 2013.12.17 15:34:00 -
[17] - Quote
Rynoceros wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:If you can magically solve how Me selling Item X in station A magically appears in Station B where buyer Z in eve then we'd have market already... well that and UI work for console, eve market is something not for the faint of heart of a pure ds3 controller. Why does the Market have to be completely tied to Eve for us to even begin to use it? Why not a Dust-only Market, with inventory sales and trading, with the Eve stuff coming in as a 3rd party retailer when they get it figured out? Instead, they just said "Meh, **** it altogether."?
Eve is a very picky system, whole reason why arena where virtual losses cannot occur either inside eve online. Locations are real as are the items in each star system's inventories.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Rail and Combat Rifle =// Unlocked
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Rynoceros
Rise Of Old Dudes
1568
|
Posted - 2013.12.17 15:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Also, what areas of Dust/Eve integration have been delayed exactly? I know we haven't seen much integration yet, but I haven't seen any integration pushed back either.
Ever heard of Planetary Conquest?
Alyssa Milano.
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Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1459
|
Posted - 2013.12.17 15:40:00 -
[19] - Quote
Rynoceros wrote:Kristoff Atruin wrote:"Why not have that P2P market ready to sell back LP items, beforehand?"
Because there are only 24 hours in a day, and developers need to sleep once in a while. If they had started working on it way back when they said they were (open beta) this wouldn't be an issue.
And then we wouldn't have properly working hit detection, eve driven orbitals or a lot of the other changes we've gotten between 1.0 and 1.7. Things have to be prioritized, and if you recall Dust was in a very bad state 7 months ago. |
Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
225
|
Posted - 2013.12.17 15:41:00 -
[20] - Quote
Rynoceros wrote:Ever heard of Planetary Conquest?
Isn't it currently in Dust? Acquiring a district in Dust provides bonuses to the alliance that the Dust corp is in, in Eve Online. I'm not sure what you are getting at... PC is happening right now. Districts are being attacked and defended, Eve Online are being coordinated to provide war barge strikes, etc.
Was something promised in PC, release date for this feature was announced, then it was pushed back/canceled? If so, please let me what feature.
"I need not food nor water. Your tears alone sustain me." - Ripley Riley
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Rynoceros
Rise Of Old Dudes
1569
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Posted - 2013.12.17 15:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Eve is a very picky system, whole reason why arena where virtual losses cannot occur either inside eve online. Locations are real as are the items in each star system's inventories.
We're not talking Eve. We're talking about Dust and market inclusive only to Dust.
Alyssa Milano.
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Rynoceros
Rise Of Old Dudes
1569
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Posted - 2013.12.17 15:49:00 -
[22] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Rynoceros wrote:Ever heard of Planetary Conquest? Isn't it currently in Dust? Acquiring a district in Dust provides bonuses to the alliance that the Dust corp is in, in Eve Online. I'm not sure what you are getting at... PC is happening right now. Districts are being attacked and defended, Eve Online are being coordinated to provide war barge strikes, etc. Was something promised in PC, release date for this feature was announced, then it was pushed back/canceled? If so, please let me what feature.
What happens in Molden Heath, stays in Molden Heath.
I'm done nitpicking this with you. (Actually, I'm just busy - I may rejoin this later)
They failed.
Repeatedly.
Watch the player count over the next month and then tell me I'm wrong, again.
Alyssa Milano.
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
226
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Posted - 2013.12.17 15:54:00 -
[23] - Quote
Rynoceros wrote:I'm done nitpicking this with you. (Actually, I'm just busy - I may rejoin this later)
This is all well and good, but let's talk about your ISK. It's clear you plan on leaving Dust in the near future. During which time your ISK will not be put to use. I have an investment strategy that could double, or even triple, your ISK while you are away. It's important that you act now.
"I need not food nor water. Your tears alone sustain me." - Ripley Riley
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Rynoceros
Rise Of Old Dudes
1569
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Posted - 2013.12.17 15:58:00 -
[24] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Rynoceros wrote:I'm done nitpicking this with you. (Actually, I'm just busy - I may rejoin this later) This is all well and good, but let's talk about your ISK. It's clear you plan on leaving Dust in the near future. During which time your ISK will not be put to use. I have an investment strategy that could double, or even triple, your ISK while you are away. It's important that you act now.
All ISK remaining at time of Biomass will be awarded to my favorite in-game allies.
Thanks, for the totally legit offer though.
Alyssa Milano.
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
226
|
Posted - 2013.12.17 16:00:00 -
[25] - Quote
Rynoceros wrote:All ISK remaining at time of Biomass will be awarded to my favorite in-game allies.
Thanks, for the totally legit offer though.
But why put them through this absolute HORROR of a game?! I mean, PC isn't in game yet. Faction warfare hasn't been updated in ages. We haven't even gotten new weapons for two weeks.
No no, I think it's best you left the ISK in the hands of a skilled investment broker.
"I need not food nor water. Your tears alone sustain me." - Ripley Riley
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
11305
|
Posted - 2013.12.17 16:17:00 -
[26] - Quote
Rynoceros wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Eve is a very picky system, whole reason why arena where virtual losses cannot occur either inside eve online. Locations are real as are the items in each star system's inventories. We're not talking Eve. We're talking about Dust and market inclusive only to Dust.
That's sort of impossible. Dust 514 is technically an eve online client.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
\\= Advanced Rail and Combat Rifle =// Unlocked
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Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
243
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Posted - 2013.12.17 16:28:00 -
[27] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:If you can magically solve how Me selling Item X in station A magically appears in Station B where buyer Z in eve then we'd have market already... well that and UI work for console, eve market is something not for the faint of heart of a pure ds3 controller.
There are MANY ways to do it and if this is really the only stupid thing that is holding it up, the both the CPM and CCP have utterly failed! Here, let me make some up on the fly right now as I type:
1 - Make it so that only specific stations in EVE (the ones linked to starting systems for DUST players since DUST players have ALWAYS started in their quarters with a LOCAL CHAT that they have no clue WTF is it for...) can sell the DUST items to and from DUST/EVE. Only in those locations will the markets DIRECTLY connect. Then have everyone in DUST able to use those markets based upon the local they are in. EVE players can then buy/sell/trade DUST items anywhere, but only sell them to DUST players in those DUST Market Hubs. Dust players will also need a way to "equalize" these markets when they can (ie, 2 guys in same squad but different local markets, one has ARs for sale, but other is out of stock on the market) by being allowed to directly TRADE dust only items with each other within dust. This would also encourage EVE pilots to actually travel to DUST territories.
2 - This probably won't happen as it'll drag down and cause too much lag to do... While in EVE every station and region is separated into different market locations. In DUST just combine them all (for DUST only items) and let the DUST players order from anywhere as if they were everywhere. Building the list of market items for this method would be the lynchpin and probably lag too much.
3 - Let DUST players see the regional market just like every EVE player does complete with number of systems that the equipment may be in distance from their current home system. If they buy something off market that is in their current station, then they get it immediately. If they buy something off market in the same solar system, then they get it in like 30 seconds. If they buy something off market that is 1 or more jumps in distance from them, then it they don't get it for 2 minutes per jump in distance. So if you buy a tank that is 10 jumps away, it won't show up in your equipment for 20 minutes. Again, a way for DUST players to trade amongst themselves would be beneficial and may also be delayed by the 2 minutes/jump factor if needed. (NOTE: Don't forget that a player could order a bunch of **** that is many minutes away and then log off or loose connection. Still have this **** delivered even if they are offline.)
4 - If you must have EVE players doing the deliveries, then work it out in two ways. First, start adding in NPC agent courier missions that tell the EVE players to buy "a" off market (or trade for it or get it anywhere even if they make it themselves) and deliver it to "y' location. Then for every successful mission of this type, the EVE pilot makes some ISK, gets standing points for his NPC corp, and the DUST items are automatically posted on the local market by the NPC for the DUST players to buy. Second way is to let EVE players have a "MARKET NEEDS" selection option in the map. This would highlight all stations in EVE that needed DUST items delivered to them. Then it would be up to the EVE players to decide upon how to supply that demand and at what price etc.
5 - Create a new "sub-market" called PLANETARY SALES or something like that for the EVE players. it would be a new market tab that the EVE players can go to in EVE. This new market would not be separated by location like everything else it. Instead an EVE player puts something up for sale on the Planetary Market and it becomes available to anyone in DUST as well as anyone in EVE that is also viewing the same market. Similarly for DUST players selling stuff, it would show up on the Planetary Market for other Dust and EVE players to buy. The only issue with this method is that some scheming EVE players somewhere would figure out that they could "transport" raw materials from point A to point B (across the universe) by making tanks in DUST and selling them to an all via the Planetary Market. So this would have negative effects to EVE unless reprocessing of DUST items is made to be unprofitable.
6 - Create a "travel" system for the DUST players to be able to travel to where the items are at. This could either be provided by an NPC corp like InterBus or by EVE players or both. The way it would work is a DUST player needs items from another market location. So they hire InterBus to transport them there. This would have to be time-limited in some way like only allow it once every hour. This would mean that if a DUST merc needed something from Jita, then they travel there and buy it, then they would have to wait to travel back to to the next market hub where they would need to buy/sell something. Making it an hour to do so, still puts the advantage to the EVE players to fulfill the market. Another way to travel would be via CONTRACT. A DUST player creates a MOVE ME contract in DUST which turns into a kinda of small package contract in EVE. The EVE pilot has no way to know who or what he's transporting. It's up to the DUST player to put a value on his transport (higher ISK would probably get fulfilled faster etc.) Then the contract is submitted to the system. DUST player can log off or stay online and chat (but unable to start matches). Once the EVE pilot completes the transport, he gets paid and DUST merc is now in new location. If transport contract timer runs out, then DUST guy never gets moved, but doesn't loose any ISK either. If move contract is accepted and fails, then DUST merc gets the collateral paid by the EVE pilot for accepting the contract and failing.
(to be continued on next message)
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Jadd Hatchen
Psygod9
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
243
|
Posted - 2013.12.17 16:29:00 -
[28] - Quote
(continued from previous posting above)
In any case, if a locationally based system is used, then there should also be a way to transport mercs to those locations. This bring about the problem that the DUST mercs will try to "congregate" at popular market hubs like Jita. But to counter that, only allow them to accept contracts from DUST hubs like the home systems that they are in currently. This way they only "go to market" to buy and sell and have to return to low-sec space to fight. |
Seymor Krelborn
DUST University
Ivy League
1610
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Posted - 2013.12.17 16:43:00 -
[29] - Quote
Rynoceros wrote:I'm just wondering if someone at CCP has been looking at the list of priorities upside down.
LP Store before P2P Market?
Rifle parity before Dropsuit parity?
Vehicle/AV balance (attempted) without the full line of vehicles or Pilot suits (if they are still coming) ?
Restructuring Orbital/Precision/Tactical Strikes, but still using the same 2500 WP as when squads were only 4 players, and fewer ways to gain WP?
Is there any form of management there or do you guys just implement whatever you want, whenever you want without any rhyme or reason?
I would really like to know the reasoning there.
Make it make sense to me/us.
CCP= Cant Comprehend Prioritization
CCp's newest joke, making setting off your own remote explosives in FW FF... awesome job ccp.
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Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1459
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Posted - 2013.12.17 16:44:00 -
[30] - Quote
There's a lot of non-trivial components to that solution, which is why we don't have it yet. |
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