The new items in the Loyalty Stores have reduced skill requirements to use them. Notably, you can use prototype suits at level 3, which saves you a lot of SP. Now, when Uprising 1.7 launched CCP was still displaying the following graph,

http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/news.control/65526/1/LP_Graph.png

Surely other people looked at this, then looked at the costs of suits in the LP store and decided they would spend their points elsewhere and just buy the protosuits from the loyalty store? But then, AFTER Uprising 1.7 launched, CCP updated the displayed information to the following,

https://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/news.control/65526/1/fw_devblog_11_lppayouttable.png

Note how things drastically changed. Now you look at it, and realize you're not going to be able to get as many dropsuits as you thought. I know I personally would of rather spent my skill points going up to Level 5 in my dropsuit to simply buy the prototype suits with ISK, but it's too late now.

I understand that the contents of the original graph was based on when LP costs where higher, but we were never given that information until a few days after Uprising 1.7 hit. I understand that the information displayed in the image was the numbers present at launch, but given how the original graph only uses markings at 10,000 LP intervals, there was no way we would of known. After all, during the first few days of Uprising 1.7 that first graph was still the information CCP was presenting to us. And no, I'm not saying we should be getting 40,000 LP per victory, but nonetheless that was the information CCP was presenting us and it has altered many decisions.

It's just so stupid how CCP can make huge mistakes like this, and this is a huge mistake (they were presenting to us numbers that were not even remotely accurate) and not do anything about it. I can not be the only one who spent a ton of skill points based off the information provided on the first graph, but surely CCP won't care. They'll just drastically alter things without telling us and then tell you "tough luck."

meh

Some of the LP stuff is good value, some of it isn't. Mix and match people, it isn't hard.

Did ccp say how much each proto suit would cost? So could you say the graph told you nothing the first time.

But what if you found value in some of the LP stuff because CCP was toting around a graph that grossly misrepresented how much LP we would be making? And spent 3.5 million unallocated skill points based on that blunder? It isn't hard.

Some of the LP stuff is good value, some of it isn't. Mix and match people, it isn't hard.

What do you consider "sustainable"? If you are talking about being able to run full LP proto every single match and still turn a profit then I say no, proto stomping is bad enough. Try just using ADV suits and basic weapons, then buy proto gear to sell once the market opens up. Much more cost efficient.

In the end I attribute my issue with FW not down to skilled players vs non skilled players, I attribute it to CCP doing a **** poor job introducing the racial groups of New Eden.

They fail to impress that there is not good or evil, no right or wrong, nor sense of moral ambiguity or the harsh gritty between the lines sorts of activities and mercenary dealings.

I have read almost every introductory passage CCP has released for all four of the Empires, their affiliate corporations, etc in Dust.

It simply comes down to this

Gallente and Minmatar are made out to be vastly more heroic and valiant than either the Amarr or Caldari who are assumed to be dark, brooding, figures of pure evil with no honour, concern for humanity, and general a bad group.

Due to this we see vastly reduced player pools for the non mainstream Gallente and Minmatar factions.

I can count of my hand the number of loyalist corporations fighting for the Amarr or Caldari, and name probably by the dozen Gallente and Minmatar loyalist corporations....

Why has their been no move made to elaborate of the Amarr or Caldari. Or educate the lacking Gallente and Minmatar jar heads who know next to nothing about this games lore apart from a few great shamans and veterans who know their lore.

Its garbage that CCP has been doing for months now.

The common community concepts of the racial groups are as follows.

Caldari- Fascist and brutally oppressive monsters with no regard for anything beyond profits.
( Lets not forget their culture revolves around honour, self betterment, and community)

Amarr- Religious Zealots, and entire people of utterly brainwashed being who believe themselves better than the rest of the universe and slavers.
(Admittedly slavery is a part of Amarr culture but a **** poor job is done to elaborate the reasons for this, nor is any attempt made to make the Amarr seem even relatively human of good despite the galactic stability they have helped achieve.)

Gallente- Heroic Freedom championing liberators, with an Ameri....ugh Gallente flag waving in the back ground, as parade music blares from loud speakers, and drugs and pretty women are thrown at their feet.
(not mentioning their appalling treatment of Caldari PoW, oppressive and empirical stance towards the independace seeking Caldari....)

Minmatar- Edgy rebels of new Eden...
( I barely even know of any minmatar players who knew the Minmatar social structure, could name who Karin Midular was, or could even recount even the most simple aspects of Minmatar culture except that rust and duct tape were key exports from the Republic......)

If CCP could even do a slight bit better job of reinforcing that the Caldari soldiers stand as defenders of their culture and way of life against the multifaceted, for good or ill, Federation with Imperial dreams, while the Amarr are not mindless slavers, but trying to be watchful parents, as the Minmatar are a socially fractious and aggressive racial group, perhaps we'd see more racial diversity that...

**** YEAH FREEDOM!

Till then this game is ******* ridiculous as two factions immediately appeal to the wider social climate while the others openly oppose them. Apart from aesthetics there is no reason to pick any race other than Gal or Min since deep down most people don't want to be the villain.

But let me ask you True, how would you have written the descriptions?

Yus this is question I have been waiting for.


Caldari

"The Caldari State, a nation formed on the ideal of meritocracy, honour, community, and self betterment. The state is composed of 8 megacorporations, massive sprawling entities that control almost all forms of business and social constructs within the State.The Caldari are a proud and independent people, choosing to adhere to their traditional customs rather than accept those of the other empires. The Caldari State has brought many victories to its people through its tough and rigid social structure, and also much misery.

I would also go on to explain the state of the megacorporations, how they control and regulate society, mention that Caldari philosophy that the One will fail and die, where the community will work together to survive. I would also mention the Caldari lost their home world to the Gallente, and that, to compensate for the empathy card, the Caldari are utterly ruthless and efficient selling the Intaki homeworlds.

With the Amarr I would impress the ideals of solidity, stability, and its stature as a Galactic power. I would then run a short introduction to the Amarr enslaving the MInmatar but explain that they believe that in doing so they are able to help the Minmatar become a productive part of the Empire. I would continue with the idea that the Amarr are capable of great good and great evil, but historically have not shown this Great Evil people have talked about.

I would then impress that the amarr value individuality, are a hopeful, inspired, and faithful people.

I don't have time to write out full Bios but I could if you insist.

I insist.

XD

I would love to see what you come up with.

(But seriously, I'm happy with these)

On a slightly different topic, I hear Caldari is the most popular race in EVE... Is that true?

Possibly but shield tanking is not the established Tanking type for PvP in EVE.

PvE shield tanking is godly, ina fight though most players prefer Armour tanked ships, though PCers are a lot more involved in their games than the console rabble......

I think I understand what the OP is saying but his ideology is flawed.

You shouldn't go to level 3 knowing you can get PROTO suits with reduced skill requirement, you should still aim for level 5 on anything youwant as a skill. The skill bonus' on say a scout suit profile dampening 15% at level 3 is nothing compared to the 25% at proto, you still need to spend the points reguardless, trying to shortcut this will only show as you come up short against those who do have the max version.
Same for weapons, only go to level 5 on a weapon due to the fact the one that usually requires proficiency is open early, does not mean you will get a weapon that acts the same as having proficiency 1, you will have less damage.

Now you may feel cheated because they changed stats a bit before release, but they must have encountered some goofy mathematics they didn't like and adjusted it prior to release, as game developers this is a very common thing.

Aim straight and get shooting, tears on battlefields are for the mothers of the caldari scum I just shotgunned in the back of the head.

What do you consider "sustainable"? If you are talking about being able to run full LP proto every single match and still turn a profit then I say no, proto stomping is bad enough. Try just using ADV suits and basic weapons, then buy proto gear to sell once the market opens up. Much more cost efficient.

You probably should have waited till it was out before you spent anything. Ah well you have learned a valuable lesson, don't leap before you look.
You said it only needed lvl 3? How many sp is that?

No matter how you mask it, the Amarr are religious conquers that enslave people. While the Caldari are large government people that control their citizens with something akin to janisariers and serfdom, as well as their leaders are large corporate capitalists.

To go beyond that you would need to make explanations for the Caldari and Amarr much more lengthy.

When you start to get more into the story the lines between right and wrong start to blur, but even then the Caldari and Amarr are still seen as somewhat bad guys.

I know I was originally going to choose Amarr, my thinking was, "These guys are like Crusaders in space, on a mission from the divine... o.O". Then I read they enslaved people and I said "**** that, I hate social injustice like that.".

Then I read about the Caldari and thought "Wow, space Communists! Cool!", BUT!- I then did EXTRA research online and realized that they weren't communists at all and thought "These guys aren't even trying to really help people, they are just what would happen if Japan was administered by Wal-Mart and they all decided to look like grey communists".

The CaldarI and Amarr just aren't appealing unless you want to be an antagonist, or possibly if you want to be a reformer, IE an Amarr that wants to free the slaves or a Caldari that wants more social liberties.

But let me ask you True, how would you have written the descriptions?

Really? You think that blunder by CCP is just "meh"? How is that information even remotely similar? And is it too hard to believe someone like me made their decision on how to spend 3.5 million skill points entirely based off of that?

I think I understand what the OP is saying but his ideology is flawed.

You shouldn't go to level 3 knowing you can get PROTO suits with reduced skill requirement, you should still aim for level 5 on anything youwant as a skill. The skill bonus' on say a scout suit profile dampening 15% at level 3 is nothing compared to the 25% at proto, you still need to spend the points reguardless, trying to shortcut this will only show as you come up short against those who do have the max version.
Same for weapons, only go to level 5 on a weapon due to the fact the one that usually requires proficiency is open early, does not mean you will get a weapon that acts the same as having proficiency 1, you will have less damage.

Now you may feel cheated because they changed stats a bit before release, but they must have encountered some goofy mathematics they didn't like and adjusted it prior to release, as game developers this is a very common thing.

Aim straight and get shooting, tears on battlefields are for the mothers of the caldari scum I just shotgunned in the back of the head.

Should of waited until the release of 1.7 to see what was balanced, I mean it's kind of retar*ed to spend large amounts of sp right before a major update because no one knows what ninja nerfs will happen and therefore if you are spilling into something that will be useless

You made a decision based on patch notes rather than waiting a few days to see the patch for yourself?
HTFU.

You're claiming you did wait. Obviously not.

Really? You obviously cannot read.

Can you not comprehend that the old graph was still the graph that we had to go off of for the first couple days of Uprising 1.7?

Makes irreversible decisions based on official CCP information.
QQ's.

All I hear is "wah wah wah".
Cry more.

All I hear is "wah wah wah".
Cry more.

Yus this is question I have been waiting for.


Caldari

"The Caldari State, a nation formed on the ideal of meritocracy, honour, community, and self betterment. The state is composed of 8 megacorporations, massive sprawling entities that control almost all forms of business and social constructs within the State.The Caldari are a proud and independent people, choosing to adhere to their traditional customs rather than accept those of the other empires. The Caldari State has brought many victories to its people through its tough and rigid social structure, and also much misery.

I would also go on to explain the state of the megacorporations, how they control and regulate society, mention that Caldari philosophy that the One will fail and die, where the community will work together to survive. I would also mention the Caldari lost their home world to the Gallente, and that, to compensate for the empathy card, the Caldari are utterly ruthless and efficient selling the Intaki homeworlds.

With the Amarr I would impress the ideals of solidity, stability, and its stature as a Galactic power. I would then run a short introduction to the Amarr enslaving the MInmatar but explain that they believe that in doing so they are able to help the Minmatar become a productive part of the Empire. I would continue with the idea that the Amarr are capable of great good and great evil, but historically have not shown this Great Evil people have talked about.

I would then impress that the amarr value individuality, are a hopeful, inspired, and faithful people.

I don't have time to write out full Bios but I could if you insist.

But what if you found value in some of the LP stuff because CCP was toting around a graph that grossly misrepresented how much LP we would be making? And spent 3.5 million unallocated skill points based on that blunder? It isn't hard.

I can only assume anybody defending this crybaby is new to New Eden. Always wait until after a patch deploys before making decisions. ALWAYS. Failing to do so is a demonstration of ignorance to how CCP operates.

Your tears are delicious.

you have all the time in the world to think about what you are writing on the internet before you hit "POST"

Poop.

Edit: Fart.

Edit 2: If you're making skill decisions based on LP payouts, I have no sympathy for your QQ.

Edit 3: It looks like I have all the time in the world to think about what I'm writing after I hit "POST", too.

We know you're incapable of rational discussion, it's why no one has taken you seriously.

Please though, by all means, continue.

We know you're incapable of rational discussion, it's why no one has taken you seriously.

Please though, by all means, continue.

Wasn't patch notes, it was official charts provided by CCP

Derp

A devblog, right? SoGǪ it was notes? About the patch?

I can only assume anybody defending this crybaby is new to New Eden. Always wait until after a patch deploys before making decisions. ALWAYS. Failing to do so is a demonstration of ignorance to how CCP operates.

Your tears are delicious.

You crystal balled in advance on numbers that were always subject to change and you lost.

In the end I attribute my issue with FW not down to skilled players vs non skilled players, I attribute it to CCP doing a **** poor job introducing the racial groups of New Eden.

[...]

Till then this game is ******* ridiculous as two factions immediately appeal to the wider social climate while the others openly oppose them. Apart from aesthetics there is no reason to pick any race other than Gal or Min since deep down most people don't want to be the villain.

TL;DR We were told LP Payouts would be high, so many (or at least I) figured you could make a good amount of prototype suits with loyalty points, which only required level 3. However, a few days after the update they revealed they had changed the LP Payouts and that now it is unreasonable to fund yourself with LP and if you want a lot of proto suits you'd need to buy the full ISK versions with level 5. Problem is, SP was already spent based on the original false information.

EDIT: I did wait until after Uprising 1.7 to spend these points. I didn't crystal ball anything, I did not predict anything. I used official CCP information which was current on December 10th, 2013 after Uprising 1.7 went live. CCP didn't update their official information to the accurate numbers until three days later on December 13th, 2013.

---

The new items in the Loyalty Stores have reduced skill requirements to use them. Notably, you can use prototype suits at level 3, which saves you a lot of SP. Now, when Uprising 1.7 launched CCP was still displaying the following graph,

http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/news.control/65526/1/LP_Graph.png

Surely other people looked at this, then looked at the costs of suits in the LP store and decided they would spend their points elsewhere and just buy the protosuits from the loyalty store? But then, AFTER Uprising 1.7 launched, CCP updated the displayed information to the following,

https://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/news.control/65526/1/fw_devblog_11_lppayouttable.png

Note how things drastically changed. Now you look at it, and realize you're not going to be able to get as many dropsuits as you thought. I know I personally would of rather spent my skill points going up to Level 5 in my dropsuit to simply buy the prototype suits with ISK, but it's too late now.

I understand that the contents of the original graph was based on when LP costs where higher, but we were never given that information until a few days after Uprising 1.7 hit. I understand that the information displayed in the image was the numbers present at launch, but given how the original graph only uses markings at 10,000 LP intervals, there was no way we would of known. After all, during the first few days of Uprising 1.7 that first graph was still the information CCP was presenting to us. And no, I'm not saying we should be getting 40,000 LP per victory, but nonetheless that was the information CCP was presenting us and it has altered many decisions.

It's just so stupid how CCP can make huge mistakes like this, and this is a huge mistake (they were presenting to us numbers that were not even remotely accurate) and not do anything about it. I can not be the only one who spent a ton of skill points based off the information provided on the first graph, but surely CCP won't care. They'll just drastically alter things without telling us and then tell you "tough luck."

Did ccp say how much each proto suit would cost? So could you say the graph told you nothing the first time.

But what if you found value in some of the LP stuff because CCP was toting around a graph that grossly misrepresented how much LP we would be making? And spent 3.5 million unallocated skill points based on that blunder? It isn't hard.

The graph was still displayed for the first couple days of Uprising 1.7, when we could look up the costs of the items in the loyalty stores ourselves. And since for those first couple days people were level 2 standing at best, you couldn't tell that the graph was inaccurate.

But what if you found value in some of the LP stuff because CCP was toting around a graph that grossly misrepresented how much LP we would be making? And spent 3.5 million unallocated skill points based on that blunder? It isn't hard.

You see, True, it's people like this who make all your efforts null. "No matter how you mask it"? We're not trying to mask anything.

The Amarr don't just go an enslave anyone willy nilly. All the races they enslave are primitive and aggressive. That does not exclude the Minmatar, who are perhaps the most violent culture New Eden has ever seen. When Amarr "enslaves" them (really, they are guiding them as a parent figure) they transform them into more peaceful human beings that bring more stability to New Eden. Oh and yeah, Amarr are all about peace and stability among New Eden, that is the whole premise of their religion and it is also evident by how they are watching over the other three empires.

And you're right, Caldari aren't space communists. In fact, they are space capitalists which is the EXACT opposite. And where do you get that they are trying to hate people?

Oh and guess what? Amarr does free all their slaves, that is part of their culture, it is not the acts of reformists.
Oh and guess what? Caldari do have social liberties, it is part of their culture, it is not the acts of reformists.


Meanwhile, you have the Minmatar who as already stated are perhaps the most brutal culture New Eden has ever seen and you have the Gallente who have a sincere lack of respect for human life the main thing keeping their economy afloat is the drug cartel, they treat their POW's worse than anything you've heard of on Earth, and they willingly accept their citizens as "collateral damage" if it means capturing the enemy.