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It's time to add a reinforcement timer to Faction Warfare

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Aero Yassavi Scions of Athra 3985	Posted - 2013.12.12 20:49:00 - [1] - Quote I've pointed this out several times since Uprising 1.4 as the cause of why the star map is always nearly 100% for one faction, but some people said we didn't have enough of a sample space to draw that conclusion. I say we have plenty of sample space. Someone pointed out that CCP didn't fix FW, they simple polished it. It's the equivalent of "scraping off bird poop from a car with no wheels." Just last night I got into a match for Amarr and attacked a district. We won. I immediately queued up again, and guess what? We were defending that same district we just took. A bit ridiculous, but we won so we kept it. I immediately queued up again and was defending the same district AGAIN. We won, so we still kept it. But then guess what? Yup, you guessed it, I queued up again, and had to defend the same district yet again. That time we lost, and thus lost the district. Come on and tell me that is not BS? How is one side supposed to make any gains when as soon as you capture a district the the enemy relentlessly attacks it until it's gone? We need a reinforcement timer. You can fiddle around with how long, but surely you can set one up while still not running out of districts to attack/defend. Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 1895	Posted - 2013.12.12 20:52:00 - [2] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: I've pointed this out several times since Uprising 1.4 as the cause of why the star map is always nearly 100% for one faction, but some people said we didn't have enough of a sample space to draw that conclusion. I say we have plenty of sample space. Someone pointed out that CCP didn't fix FW, they simple polished it. It's the equivalent of "scraping off bird poop from a car with no wheels." Just last night I got into a match for Amarr and attacked a district. We won. I immediately queued up again, and guess what? We were defending that same district we just took. A bit ridiculous, but we won so we kept it. I immediately queued up again and was defending the same district AGAIN. We won, so we still kept it. But then guess what? Yup, you guessed it, I queued up again, and had to defend the same district yet again. That time we lost, and thus lost the district. Come on and tell me that is not BS? How is one side supposed to make any gains when as soon as you capture a district the the enemy relentlessly attacks it until it's gone? We need a reinforcement timer. You can fiddle around with how long, but surely you can set one up while still not running out of districts to attack/defend. Make note of the number of ships in space at the time and the contested rate of the district. If it seems like minmatar are plexing that area, then yes, Amarr should be on their heels on the ground.
Aero Yassavi Scions of Athra 3985	Posted - 2013.12.12 20:56:00 - [3] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: Make note of the number of ships in space at the time and the contested rate of the district. If it seems like minmatar are plexing that area, then yes, Amarr should be on their heels on the ground. 1) Why do people quote the OP so much, especially when they are the first response? 2) So you think it is ok that we had to defend the same district 3 times in a row? I'm not saying I'm confused how it happened, I understand why it happened. I'm saying it shouldn't happen if you want to have good FW design. Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
Krom Ganesh Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 879	Posted - 2013.12.12 21:03:00 - [4] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: 1) Why do people quote the OP so much, especially when they are the first response? 2) So you think it is ok that we had to defend the same district 3 times in a row? I'm not saying I'm confused how it happened, I understand why it happened. I'm saying it shouldn't happen if you want to have good FW design. If nothing else, insurance against OP edits. There does need to be some form of reinforcement timer but, for it to be long enough that it actually has an effect while also not limiting the number of matches available in the pool, districts need to take longer to flip. The best way of doing that is multi-staged FW games. !
Crimson Cerberes Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance 125	Posted - 2013.12.12 21:04:00 - [5] - Quote It is because there are a TON of people trying to do minmatar FW, and you were likely the only team (maybe 1 or 2 others at max) trying to do amarr FW. That and it was probably the only amarr district left to defend.
Aero Yassavi Scions of Athra 3987	Posted - 2013.12.12 21:07:00 - [6] - Quote Krom Ganesh wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: 1) Why do people quote the OP so much, especially when they are the first response? 2) So you think it is ok that we had to defend the same district 3 times in a row? I'm not saying I'm confused how it happened, I understand why it happened. I'm saying it shouldn't happen if you want to have good FW design. If nothing else, insurance against OP edits. There does need to be some form of reinforcement timer but, for it to be long enough that it actually has an effect while also not limiting the number of matches available in the pool, districts need to take longer to flip. The best way of doing that is multi-staged FW games. I know all about multi-stage FW games, I wrote the the thread. And I don't think people realize just how many districts there are in FW. I did the math back around 1.4 when we first got wide spread use of FW, and it turns out in order to run out of districts with the current method you'd need to multiply the average online player count by quite a large factor and all of them would have to play FW. Forgot the math, but it was ridiculous. I'll do it again if I need to. Needless to say, a reinforcement timer could work without limiting the amount of districts available to attack. Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
Aero Yassavi Scions of Athra 3987	Posted - 2013.12.12 21:09:00 - [7] - Quote Crimson Cerberes wrote: It is because there are a TON of people trying to do minmatar FW, and you were likely the only team (maybe 1 or 2 others at max) trying to do amarr FW. That and it was probably the only amarr district left to defend. Again, I know why it's happening, I'm just don't think it should be happening. There are well over a thousand districts in the Minmatar/Amarr war zone, why can't the battles be taking place elsewhere once we already captured/defended it? Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
Krom Ganesh Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 879	Posted - 2013.12.12 21:10:00 - [8] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: I know all about multi-stage FW games, I wrote the the thread. And I don't think people realize just how many districts there are in FW. I did the math back around 1.4 when we first got wide spread use of FW, and it turns out in order to run out of districts with the current method you'd need to multiply the average online player count by quite a large factor and all of them would have to play FW. Forgot the math, but it was ridiculous. I'll do it again if I need to. Needless to say, a reinforcement timer could work without limiting the amount of districts available to attack. Can a FW match be spawned anywhere? Or does it require a district to have a neighboring district/planet/system controlled by your faction to spawn a match? !
Kristoff Atruin Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1424	Posted - 2013.12.12 21:13:00 - [9] - Quote We probably need another planet type before there are enough districts to make locking them viable. Could run out of battlegrounds otherwise.
Aero Yassavi Scions of Athra 3987	Posted - 2013.12.12 21:13:00 - [10] - Quote Krom Ganesh wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: I know all about multi-stage FW games, I wrote the the thread. And I don't think people realize just how many districts there are in FW. I did the math back around 1.4 when we first got wide spread use of FW, and it turns out in order to run out of districts with the current method you'd need to multiply the average online player count by quite a large factor and all of them would have to play FW. Forgot the math, but it was ridiculous. I'll do it again if I need to. Needless to say, a reinforcement timer could work without limiting the amount of districts available to attack. Can a FW match be spawned anywhere? Or does it require a district to have a neighboring district/planet/system controlled by your faction to spawn a match? FW matches are spawned based on nearby plexing and which districts your faction does not own. For instance with Minmatar, since they own nearly every district as soon as the Amarr get a district they will send everything they got match after match at that district until it is there's again, which is very poor design. Hopefully the next FW update will be about improving the system control mechanics, so stuff like 1) Multi-stage FW battles 2) Player selected districts to attack instead of their poor spawning mechanic 3) Reinforcement timers Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor

Aero Yassavi Scions of Athra 3987	Posted - 2013.12.12 21:14:00 - [11] - Quote Kristoff Atruin wrote: We probably need another planet type before there are enough districts to make locking them viable. Could run out of battlegrounds otherwise. No. Go count how many districts are available in FW. We don't even come remotely close to running out of districts, even if they put an hour reinforcement timer on each district after a fight. Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
Maximus Stryker Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 725	Posted - 2013.12.12 21:18:00 - [12] - Quote Krom Ganesh wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: I know all about multi-stage FW games, I wrote the the thread. And I don't think people realize just how many districts there are in FW. I did the math back around 1.4 when we first got wide spread use of FW, and it turns out in order to run out of districts with the current method you'd need to multiply the average online player count by quite a large factor and all of them would have to play FW. Forgot the math, but it was ridiculous. I'll do it again if I need to. Needless to say, a reinforcement timer could work without limiting the amount of districts available to attack. Can a FW match be spawned anywhere? Or does it require a district to have a neighboring district/planet/system controlled by your faction to spawn a match? i think the districts for Dust get chosen based on the areas with the most plexing in EVE...still a bit fuzzy for me. *Faction Channels for FW Staging* PIE Ground Control \| Caldari Hierarchy \| Turalyon \| Chosen Matari
Boot Booter Omega Elite Mercs INC. 218	Posted - 2013.12.12 21:26:00 - [13] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: I've pointed this out several times since Uprising 1.4 as the cause of why the star map is always nearly 100% for one faction, but some people said we didn't have enough of a sample space to draw that conclusion. I say we have plenty of sample space. Someone pointed out that CCP didn't fix FW, they simple polished it. It's the equivalent of "scraping off bird poop from a car with no wheels." Just last night I got into a match for Amarr and attacked a district. We won. I immediately queued up again, and guess what? We were defending that same district we just took. A bit ridiculous, but we won so we kept it. I immediately queued up again and was defending the same district AGAIN. We won, so we still kept it. But then guess what? Yup, you guessed it, I queued up again, and had to defend the same district yet again. That time we lost, and thus lost the district. Come on and tell me that is not BS? How is one side supposed to make any gains when as soon as you capture a district the the enemy relentlessly attacks it until it's gone? We need a reinforcement timer. You can fiddle around with how long, but surely you can set one up while still not running out of districts to attack/defend. HAH! Thats what you get for fighting the glorius republic! Seriously though, youre right.
TechMechMeds Swamp Marines Kleenex Inc. 1724	Posted - 2013.12.12 21:27:00 - [14] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Crimson Cerberes wrote: It is because there are a TON of people trying to do minmatar FW, and you were likely the only team (maybe 1 or 2 others at max) trying to do amarr FW. That and it was probably the only amarr district left to defend. Again, I know why it's happening, I'm just don't think it should be happening. There are well over a thousand districts in the Minmatar/Amarr war zone, why can't the battles be taking place elsewhere once we already captured/defended it? Maybe because the matchmaker forces battles to carry on until a planet is taken over before moving on, I'm just speculating and agree totally. Level 1 forum warrior. Minmatar and Gallente fw. I sold my wife and kids to the Amarr for isk, its a valid tactic.
TechMechMeds Swamp Marines Kleenex Inc. 1724	Posted - 2013.12.12 21:28:00 - [15] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Krom Ganesh wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: I know all about multi-stage FW games, I wrote the the thread. And I don't think people realize just how many districts there are in FW. I did the math back around 1.4 when we first got wide spread use of FW, and it turns out in order to run out of districts with the current method you'd need to multiply the average online player count by quite a large factor and all of them would have to play FW. Forgot the math, but it was ridiculous. I'll do it again if I need to. Needless to say, a reinforcement timer could work without limiting the amount of districts available to attack. Can a FW match be spawned anywhere? Or does it require a district to have a neighboring district/planet/system controlled by your faction to spawn a match? FW matches are spawned based on nearby plexing and which districts your faction does not own. For instance with Minmatar, since they own nearly every district as soon as the Amarr get a district they will send everything they got match after match at that district until it is there's again, which is very poor design. Hopefully the next FW update will be about improving the system control mechanics, so stuff like 1) Multi-stage FW battles 2) Player selected districts to attack instead of their poor spawning mechanic 3) Reinforcement timers Never mind, I missed this lol. Level 1 forum warrior. Minmatar and Gallente fw. I sold my wife and kids to the Amarr for isk, its a valid tactic.
True Adamance Scions of Athra 4840	Posted - 2013.12.12 21:35:00 - [16] - Quote With a timer I could see smaller groups, squads and corps actively making a difference, FW right now is like bashing your head against a wall. Amarr had this problem once before, our player base is a small one of skilled players, all with other more valuable interests in PC. With and influx of players to one side or another you see the balance shift to one extreme or another. I can win every match, that is if the blue dots don't break my spirit before the end of the match..... "Shudder. Again another smart idea from an Amarr..."- Forlorn Destrier (11/12/13) LAWL
Shijima Kuraimaru warravens League of Infamy 416	Posted - 2013.12.12 21:57:00 - [17] - Quote Just remember that right now, Dust provides a small contribution to faction warfare. Having one hundred times the mercs we currently have wouldn't change that right now. The majority of the impact in faction warfare is still made by the capsuleers so even if every Dust match was won for one faction, the opposition could still win on Eve side. Introducing the latest in heavy anti infantry weaponry. The Forge Gun.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 6069	Posted - 2013.12.12 21:58:00 - [18] - Quote Reinforcement timers like what? This could quickly make FW even more of a hassle than it already is. Level 6 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution Gallente FW - 'Turalyon'
True Adamance Scions of Athra 4844	Posted - 2013.12.12 22:09:00 - [19] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Reinforcement timers like what? This could quickly make FW even more of a hassle than it already is. Its already a huge hassle when a third of the community goes one faction and locks down FW forever. Its not like EVE when clever deployment, careful plexing, and outright fire supremacy will win you FW. In Dust its luck and numbers. "Shudder. Again another smart idea from an Amarr..."- Forlorn Destrier (11/12/13) LAWL
Aero Yassavi Scions of Athra 4006	Posted - 2013.12.12 22:21:00 - [20] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Just remember that right now, Dust provides a small contribution to faction warfare. Having one hundred times the mercs we currently have wouldn't change that right now. The majority of the impact in faction warfare is still made by the capsuleers so even if every Dust match was won for one faction, the opposition could still win on Eve side. That's no excuse for the current state of FW. They need to make the Dust side results matter to the Dust players, and adding reinforcement timers will be a big part of that. Let the EVE guys worry about how things are going EVE side. And we can help each other out, but we are still only worried mainly in what is happening on our side of the war. Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor

Aero Yassavi Scions of Athra 4006	Posted - 2013.12.12 22:24:00 - [21] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Reinforcement timers like what? This could quickly make FW even more of a hassle than it already is. After each FW battle, lock the district down for at least an hour. That way battles will have to move to different districts instead of the same ones over and over again allowing no chance for the losing side to come back unless there is some monstrous push. And trust me, even with a 1 hour reinforcement timer there will still be more than enough districts available. I don't see how this will make FW any more of a hassle that it already is. Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
Poonmunch Sanguis Defense Syndicate 683	Posted - 2013.12.12 22:31:00 - [22] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: I've pointed this out several times since Uprising 1.4 as the cause of why the star map is always nearly 100% for one faction, but some people said we didn't have enough of a sample space to draw that conclusion. I say we have plenty of sample space. Someone pointed out that CCP didn't fix FW, they simple polished it. It's the equivalent of "scraping off bird poop from a car with no wheels." Just last night I got into a match for Amarr and attacked a district. We won. I immediately queued up again, and guess what? We were defending that same district we just took. A bit ridiculous, but we won so we kept it. I immediately queued up again and was defending the same district AGAIN. We won, so we still kept it. But then guess what? Yup, you guessed it, I queued up again, and had to defend the same district yet again. That time we lost, and thus lost the district. Come on and tell me that is not BS? How is one side supposed to make any gains when as soon as you capture a district the the enemy relentlessly attacks it until it's gone? We need a reinforcement timer. You can fiddle around with how long, but surely you can set one up while still not running out of districts to attack/defend. Make note of the number of ships in space at the time and the contested rate of the district. If it seems like minmatar are plexing that area, then yes, Amarr should be on their heels on the ground. Yes, sometimes there can be more than 100 ships in the system. I've seen over 200. Munch Dedicated Sniper. Minmatar Patriot.
Shijima Kuraimaru warravens League of Infamy 418	Posted - 2013.12.12 22:53:00 - [23] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Just remember that right now, Dust provides a small contribution to faction warfare. Having one hundred times the mercs we currently have wouldn't change that right now. The majority of the impact in faction warfare is still made by the capsuleers so even if every Dust match was won for one faction, the opposition could still win on Eve side. That's no excuse for the current state of FW. They need to make the Dust side results matter to the Dust players, and adding reinforcement timers will be a big part of that. Let the EVE guys worry about how things are going EVE side. And we can help each other out, but we are still only worried mainly in what is happening on our side of the war. Though the contribution is small, Dust battles still have an effect on faction warfare, even if it is minor. But you can't expect to fight ground battles in faction warfare systems that aren't contested. As the front lines move, so the districts we fight over will change, though the maps are heavily recycled. I still can't find tanks on the market. All I see are those HAVs.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 1274	Posted - 2013.12.12 23:15:00 - [24] - Quote Personally, I'd rather be able to organize cross-game plexing where we collaborate with capsuleers to assault a system both on the ground and in space. This would solve the "can you come 8 jumps to provide orbital support for us?" as well as lending more gravity to our contribution to Eve FW. I also think it would be much more preferable to RF timers. Praise St. Arzad and Pass the Nanohives Karin Midular, gone, never forgotten Executing Amarr Trash since Closed Beta
Aero Yassavi Scions of Athra 4008	Posted - 2013.12.12 23:17:00 - [25] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Personally, I'd rather be able to organize cross-game plexing where we collaborate with capsuleers to assault a system both on the ground and in space. This would solve the "can you come 8 jumps to provide orbital support for us?" as well as lending more gravity to our contribution to Eve FW. I also think it would be much more preferable to RF timers. What is not preferable about reinforcement timers? Do you honestly think it is in anyway good game design for the district you just captured to be under constant attack for the next 3 matches straight until you lose (heck, I'm sure if I won that third match then the next match would be on the same district yet again). Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
True Adamance Scions of Athra 4847	Posted - 2013.12.12 23:19:00 - [26] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Personally, I'd rather be able to organize cross-game plexing where we collaborate with capsuleers to assault a system both on the ground and in space. This would solve the "can you come 8 jumps to provide orbital support for us?" as well as lending more gravity to our contribution to Eve FW. I also think it would be much more preferable to RF timers. It would be interesting to say the least. Corps could the say, we dig in at Arzad and hold the line until our guys in Devoid can come and reinforce the space side defence forces. "Shudder. Again another smart idea from an Amarr..."- Forlorn Destrier (11/12/13) LAWL
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 1275	Posted - 2013.12.12 23:41:00 - [27] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Personally, I'd rather be able to organize cross-game plexing where we collaborate with capsuleers to assault a system both on the ground and in space. This would solve the "can you come 8 jumps to provide orbital support for us?" as well as lending more gravity to our contribution to Eve FW. I also think it would be much more preferable to RF timers. What is not preferable about reinforcement timers? Do you honestly think it is in anyway good game design for the district you just captured to be under constant attack for the next 3 matches straight until you lose (heck, I'm sure if I won that third match then the next match would be on the same district yet again). RF timers are second only to a ***** bajillion hit points on my "Why I ***** hate structure shoots" list. I could get behind RF timers for FW if it wasn't for a District, but for the entire planet. So, you've plexed every District on the planet (you've won some and lost some) and you've won enough battles to open District 0 which houses the Command Node for the planet. While District 0 is technically open, it is in RF for X hours. When it comes out, the planet is vulnerable for another X hours. If the defenders win the Command Node battle, they've succeeded in evicting the attackers. If the attackers win the Command Node battle, then they've conquered the planet (any Districts still held by the defenders are toggled as "insurgency Districts" which will give the faction that held them during the command node battle some bonus for attacking the planet again or something. Incprporates both ideas..... Praise St. Arzad and Pass the Nanohives Karin Midular, gone, never forgotten Executing Amarr Trash since Closed Beta
Cymek Omnius Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 9	Posted - 2013.12.12 23:42:00 - [28] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Just remember that right now, Dust provides a small contribution to faction warfare. Having one hundred times the mercs we currently have wouldn't change that right now. The majority of the impact in faction warfare is still made by the capsuleers so even if every Dust match was won for one faction, the opposition could still win on Eve side. That's no excuse for the current state of FW. They need to make the Dust side results matter to the Dust players, and adding reinforcement timers will be a big part of that. Let the EVE guys worry about how things are going EVE side. And we can help each other out, but we are still only worried mainly in what is happening on our side of the war. I do not agree. Wait for PC 2.0 or some other patch. Last thing I want is alarm clock OPs to take a system like 0.0 in Eve.
Aero Yassavi Scions of Athra 4009	Posted - 2013.12.12 23:53:00 - [29] - Quote Cymek Omnius wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Just remember that right now, Dust provides a small contribution to faction warfare. Having one hundred times the mercs we currently have wouldn't change that right now. The majority of the impact in faction warfare is still made by the capsuleers so even if every Dust match was won for one faction, the opposition could still win on Eve side. That's no excuse for the current state of FW. They need to make the Dust side results matter to the Dust players, and adding reinforcement timers will be a big part of that. Let the EVE guys worry about how things are going EVE side. And we can help each other out, but we are still only worried mainly in what is happening on our side of the war. I do not agree. Wait for PC 2.0 or some other patch. Last thing I want is alarm clock OPs to take a system like 0.0 in Eve. What are you talking about? All I'm saying is once a battle for a district is completed, allow no more battles on that district for say an hour and instead fight on the over a thousand of other districts that you could in no way run out of unless the Dust player base increases by some multiple of 10 overnight. Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
Cymek Omnius Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 10	Posted - 2013.12.13 00:07:00 - [30] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Cymek Omnius wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Just remember that right now, Dust provides a small contribution to faction warfare. Having one hundred times the mercs we currently have wouldn't change that right now. The majority of the impact in faction warfare is still made by the capsuleers so even if every Dust match was won for one faction, the opposition could still win on Eve side. That's no excuse for the current state of FW. They need to make the Dust side results matter to the Dust players, and adding reinforcement timers will be a big part of that. Let the EVE guys worry about how things are going EVE side. And we can help each other out, but we are still only worried mainly in what is happening on our side of the war. I do not agree. Wait for PC 2.0 or some other patch. Last thing I want is alarm clock OPs to take a system like 0.0 in Eve. What are you talking about? All I'm saying is once a battle for a district is completed, allow no more battles on that district for say an hour and instead fight on the over a thousand of other districts that you could in no way run out of unless the Dust player base increases by some multiple of 10 overnight. Any talk of a reinforce timer is no different than 0.0 mechanics in Eve trying to capture Sovereignty. I do not see CCP changing FW or low sec to be more like 0.0 in that aspect. FW and low sec are supposed to be stepping stones to your alarm clock matches you crave. I am sure you will have reinforce timers in 0.0 PC matches when they come out.



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