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Aero Yassavi
Scions of Athra
3985
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Posted - 2013.12.12 20:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've pointed this out several times since Uprising 1.4 as the cause of why the star map is always nearly 100% for one faction, but some people said we didn't have enough of a sample space to draw that conclusion. I say we have plenty of sample space. Someone pointed out that CCP didn't fix FW, they simple polished it. It's the equivalent of "scraping off bird poop from a car with no wheels."
Just last night I got into a match for Amarr and attacked a district. We won. I immediately queued up again, and guess what? We were defending that same district we just took. A bit ridiculous, but we won so we kept it. I immediately queued up again and was defending the same district AGAIN. We won, so we still kept it. But then guess what? Yup, you guessed it, I queued up again, and had to defend the same district yet again. That time we lost, and thus lost the district.
Come on and tell me that is not BS? How is one side supposed to make any gains when as soon as you capture a district the the enemy relentlessly attacks it until it's gone? We need a reinforcement timer. You can fiddle around with how long, but surely you can set one up while still not running out of districts to attack/defend.
Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
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Aero Yassavi
Scions of Athra
3985
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Posted - 2013.12.12 20:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:
Make note of the number of ships in space at the time and the contested rate of the district. If it seems like minmatar are plexing that area, then yes, Amarr should be on their heels on the ground.
1) Why do people quote the OP so much, especially when they are the first response?
2) So you think it is ok that we had to defend the same district 3 times in a row? I'm not saying I'm confused how it happened, I understand why it happened. I'm saying it shouldn't happen if you want to have good FW design.
Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
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Aero Yassavi
Scions of Athra
3987
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Posted - 2013.12.12 21:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
Krom Ganesh wrote:Aero Yassavi wrote:1) Why do people quote the OP so much, especially when they are the first response?
2) So you think it is ok that we had to defend the same district 3 times in a row? I'm not saying I'm confused how it happened, I understand why it happened. I'm saying it shouldn't happen if you want to have good FW design. If nothing else, insurance against OP edits. There does need to be some form of reinforcement timer but, for it to be long enough that it actually has an effect while also not limiting the number of matches available in the pool, districts need to take longer to flip. The best way of doing that is multi-staged FW games.
I know all about multi-stage FW games, I wrote the the thread. And I don't think people realize just how many districts there are in FW. I did the math back around 1.4 when we first got wide spread use of FW, and it turns out in order to run out of districts with the current method you'd need to multiply the average online player count by quite a large factor and all of them would have to play FW. Forgot the math, but it was ridiculous. I'll do it again if I need to. Needless to say, a reinforcement timer could work without limiting the amount of districts available to attack.
Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
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Aero Yassavi
Scions of Athra
3987
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Posted - 2013.12.12 21:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
Crimson Cerberes wrote:It is because there are a TON of people trying to do minmatar FW, and you were likely the only team (maybe 1 or 2 others at max) trying to do amarr FW. That and it was probably the only amarr district left to defend.
Again, I know why it's happening, I'm just don't think it should be happening. There are well over a thousand districts in the Minmatar/Amarr war zone, why can't the battles be taking place elsewhere once we already captured/defended it?
Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
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Aero Yassavi
Scions of Athra
3987
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Posted - 2013.12.12 21:13:00 -
[5] - Quote
Krom Ganesh wrote:Aero Yassavi wrote:I know all about multi-stage FW games, I wrote the the thread. And I don't think people realize just how many districts there are in FW. I did the math back around 1.4 when we first got wide spread use of FW, and it turns out in order to run out of districts with the current method you'd need to multiply the average online player count by quite a large factor and all of them would have to play FW. Forgot the math, but it was ridiculous. I'll do it again if I need to. Needless to say, a reinforcement timer could work without limiting the amount of districts available to attack. Can a FW match be spawned anywhere? Or does it require a district to have a neighboring district/planet/system controlled by your faction to spawn a match?
FW matches are spawned based on nearby plexing and which districts your faction does not own. For instance with Minmatar, since they own nearly every district as soon as the Amarr get a district they will send everything they got match after match at that district until it is there's again, which is very poor design.
Hopefully the next FW update will be about improving the system control mechanics, so stuff like
1) Multi-stage FW battles
2) Player selected districts to attack instead of their poor spawning mechanic
3) Reinforcement timers
Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
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Aero Yassavi
Scions of Athra
3987
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Posted - 2013.12.12 21:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:We probably need another planet type before there are enough districts to make locking them viable. Could run out of battlegrounds otherwise.
No. Go count how many districts are available in FW. We don't even come remotely close to running out of districts, even if they put an hour reinforcement timer on each district after a fight.
Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
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Aero Yassavi
Scions of Athra
4006
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Posted - 2013.12.12 22:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Just remember that right now, Dust provides a small contribution to faction warfare. Having one hundred times the mercs we currently have wouldn't change that right now.
The majority of the impact in faction warfare is still made by the capsuleers so even if every Dust match was won for one faction, the opposition could still win on Eve side.
That's no excuse for the current state of FW. They need to make the Dust side results matter to the Dust players, and adding reinforcement timers will be a big part of that. Let the EVE guys worry about how things are going EVE side. And we can help each other out, but we are still only worried mainly in what is happening on our side of the war.
Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
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Aero Yassavi
Scions of Athra
4006
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Posted - 2013.12.12 22:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Reinforcement timers like what?
This could quickly make FW even more of a hassle than it already is.
After each FW battle, lock the district down for at least an hour. That way battles will have to move to different districts instead of the same ones over and over again allowing no chance for the losing side to come back unless there is some monstrous push. And trust me, even with a 1 hour reinforcement timer there will still be more than enough districts available.
I don't see how this will make FW any more of a hassle that it already is.
Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
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Aero Yassavi
Scions of Athra
4008
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Posted - 2013.12.12 23:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:Personally, I'd rather be able to organize cross-game plexing where we collaborate with capsuleers to assault a system both on the ground and in space. This would solve the "can you come 8 jumps to provide orbital support for us?" as well as lending more gravity to our contribution to Eve FW.
I also think it would be much more preferable to RF timers.
What is not preferable about reinforcement timers? Do you honestly think it is in anyway good game design for the district you just captured to be under constant attack for the next 3 matches straight until you lose (heck, I'm sure if I won that third match then the next match would be on the same district yet again).
Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
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Aero Yassavi
Scions of Athra
4009
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Posted - 2013.12.12 23:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cymek Omnius wrote:Aero Yassavi wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Just remember that right now, Dust provides a small contribution to faction warfare. Having one hundred times the mercs we currently have wouldn't change that right now.
The majority of the impact in faction warfare is still made by the capsuleers so even if every Dust match was won for one faction, the opposition could still win on Eve side. That's no excuse for the current state of FW. They need to make the Dust side results matter to the Dust players, and adding reinforcement timers will be a big part of that. Let the EVE guys worry about how things are going EVE side. And we can help each other out, but we are still only worried mainly in what is happening on our side of the war. I do not agree. Wait for PC 2.0 or some other patch. Last thing I want is alarm clock OPs to take a system like 0.0 in Eve.
What are you talking about? All I'm saying is once a battle for a district is completed, allow no more battles on that district for say an hour and instead fight on the over a thousand of other districts that you could in no way run out of unless the Dust player base increases by some multiple of 10 overnight.
Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
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Aero Yassavi
Scions of Athra
4011
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Posted - 2013.12.13 00:20:00 -
[11] - Quote
Again, what are you talking about? If CCP were to add a reinforcement timer into Dust FW as I stated (simply a 1 hour period after a battle where that district can no longer be attacked), the Dust 514 player base wouldn't actually notice any change except for the star map. You'd still queue up for FW just like you do now, except the battle would occur at a different district, which is absolutely trivial unless you are concerned with the overall outlook of the star map.
Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
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Aero Yassavi
Scions of Athra
4014
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Posted - 2013.12.13 07:15:00 -
[12] - Quote
I'm sorry, but battle after battle on the same district where each battle instantly decides who owns the district makes no sense and will never make sense. If you want EVE players to love us, keep us in the general location, but not the same district.
Look, if Amarr captures a district, not only should they hold it safe for at least an hour based on principle, but owning the district also gives EVE players a plexing bonus and you have to at least give them the opportunity to take advantage of that before it gets flipped back.
Flipping a district in a span of 15 minutes is bad enough, flipping the district in 15 minutes and then losing it in another 15 minutes is downright stupid. And in regards to your first concern, who cares if EVE side a system is 100% secured? Still let us fight there if we have to (but again, there are a ridiculous number of districts we could fight on). Ultimately they are two separate games and they don't have to coincide with everything. EVE have space FW, Dust has ground FW. They are two separate FWs with different ownership maps. They can help each other, but they aren't dependent on each other.
Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
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Aero Yassavi
Scions of Athra
4021
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Posted - 2013.12.13 18:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:I'll add that it does make sense for it to become unavailable to attack at some point, just not after one battle. When the eve guys are fighting it out for an entire night I want to be there too. I like the idea of a multi-stage fight with a planetary command center eventually becoming vulnerable. Win that final fight, and the planet is secured for some time frame.
You can't always work things the same in Dust as you do in EVE. Now, if you want to not lock a single district after one attack fine, but then it needs to take more than one attack to flip a district. Like you said, multi-stage fights.
Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
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Aero Yassavi
Scions of Athra
4073
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Posted - 2013.12.14 13:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:I'll try to explain what Aero is saying this way:
Amarr wins a district (district A). Theoretically we have beat back the enemy and they need time to regroup. The next battle should be in a nearby district owned by the MInmatar (district B) because they have been pushed back. If they win the next battle, we get pushed back and the third battle occurs in district A once again. If not, they should logically get pushed back again and the third battle should be in yet another district, C. Et cetera. This is how it should work.
Instead, we win district A. Next battle, distrcict A. Win again. Third battle, yes, district A yet again. Theoretically you will NEVER gain any ground even if you win 20 battles in a row and slaughter entire divisions of enemy troops because you are never allowed to move on to another district. It's totally broken.
Instead, lets set it so that once a district is conquered, it stays safe for one hour (3 battles). District A is won. It is now safe, so the next battle can't be fought there. So, the fighting moves on to B, and C, and so on. If you don't set SOME lockout period, even if it's only for one or two battles, the minority side can't ever get anywhere. And then you could well end up with mercs/squads/teams sitting and waiting on district timers to unlock because a faction has been pushed back to a couple of systems with maybe five or six planets to battle over. Sure, the easy answer is "Then they can play pub matches while they wait.", but maybe they're in it for the faction warfare with little to no interest in public matches. All in all, unnecessarily forcing people out of the area of they game they want to play is always a bad idea.
Not at all. I do not believe you are aware of just how many districts are available in FW. We're not even remotely close to a situation where players would have to play pub matches while they wait.
What's a bad idea is allowing the enemy to continually attack the same district match after match after match until they win. Have you noticed that FW star map has always been 100% either side? That's why.
Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
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