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Ryder Azorria
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
721
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Posted - 2013.12.13 00:19:00 -
[31] - Quote
Cymek Omnius wrote:Aero Yassavi wrote:Cymek Omnius wrote:Aero Yassavi wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Just remember that right now, Dust provides a small contribution to faction warfare. Having one hundred times the mercs we currently have wouldn't change that right now.
The majority of the impact in faction warfare is still made by the capsuleers so even if every Dust match was won for one faction, the opposition could still win on Eve side. That's no excuse for the current state of FW. They need to make the Dust side results matter to the Dust players, and adding reinforcement timers will be a big part of that. Let the EVE guys worry about how things are going EVE side. And we can help each other out, but we are still only worried mainly in what is happening on our side of the war. I do not agree. Wait for PC 2.0 or some other patch. Last thing I want is alarm clock OPs to take a system like 0.0 in Eve. What are you talking about? All I'm saying is once a battle for a district is completed, allow no more battles on that district for say an hour and instead fight on the over a thousand of other districts that you could in no way run out of unless the Dust player base increases by some multiple of 10 overnight. Any talk of a reinforce timer is no different than 0.0 mechanics in Eve trying to capture Sovereignty. I do not see CCP changing FW or low sec to be more like 0.0 in that aspect. FW and low sec are supposed to be stepping stones to your alarm clock matches you crave. I am sure you will have reinforce timers in 0.0 PC matches when they come out. What Aero is suggesting is nothing even close to alarm clock matches, in FW there is always a match available (theoretically at least, currently not so much thanks to the total curbstomping Amarr and Caldari are getting).
What he is suggesting is that once a district has been fought over, it can't be fought over for another hour or so - instead the fight moves to the next district on the planet, or the next planet in the system, etc.
No alarm clocks, just a moving frontline.
EDIT: Incidentally I happen to think it's a pretty good idea, hopefully something SoxFour and Co. can implement without to much trouble. |
Aero Yassavi
Scions of Athra
4011
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Posted - 2013.12.13 00:20:00 -
[32] - Quote
Again, what are you talking about? If CCP were to add a reinforcement timer into Dust FW as I stated (simply a 1 hour period after a battle where that district can no longer be attacked), the Dust 514 player base wouldn't actually notice any change except for the star map. You'd still queue up for FW just like you do now, except the battle would occur at a different district, which is absolutely trivial unless you are concerned with the overall outlook of the star map.
Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
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Stephen Seneca
State Patriots Templis Dragonaors
10
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Posted - 2013.12.13 05:27:00 -
[33] - Quote
I would like to point out that FW is NOT a stepping stone for people to get into null. It may be an easier entry and a place you can develop but since CCP finally got around to fixing FW after 3 years of Europeans plexing right after DT. I remember when everyone laughed at me and my rocket hawk... lol.
FW is a valid and important game in the eve universe and has had many null alliances join up (or exploit the **** outta it with alts).
These FW issues should be a priority because the "middle class" player can get in and be a real part of the sandbox. |
Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1424
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Posted - 2013.12.13 05:55:00 -
[34] - Quote
The problem with just assuming that locking districts is ok because there's lots of districts, is that often times systems are 100% secured and no battles are happening there. If a system is 100% held by the Caldari (because it's in their rear lines) it doesn't make sense for the Gallente to be suddenly attacking a district there.
I think the more important thing will be giving players, either in Dust or Eve, the ability to choose where to attack and possibly sit on a district / planet that have friendly districts to declare that they will defend them if they come under attack. This is because right now in Dust we're trying to capture practically the entire warzone at the same time, which makes no sense. On the Eve side the effort is focused. There are random guys capturing sites in random systems nobody cares about atm, but the alliances and organized corps pick a system and methodically attack it for hours upon hours. We need to be able to join them when they do this, and turn it into a kind of combined arms attack.
If we could do this then battle after battle on the same district would make sense, and the Eve players would LOVE us. Every couple of weeks I have fleet commanders or directors in my alliance asking me if I can get my corp to attack a specific planet at a certain time. Just can't do it. They want to play with us, and we can't really join them.
1.7 was a massive, massive step in the right direction on that front. Not gonna deny that, the Eve guys are loving the changes right now. There's more that could be done though. |
Aero Yassavi
Scions of Athra
4014
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Posted - 2013.12.13 07:15:00 -
[35] - Quote
I'm sorry, but battle after battle on the same district where each battle instantly decides who owns the district makes no sense and will never make sense. If you want EVE players to love us, keep us in the general location, but not the same district.
Look, if Amarr captures a district, not only should they hold it safe for at least an hour based on principle, but owning the district also gives EVE players a plexing bonus and you have to at least give them the opportunity to take advantage of that before it gets flipped back.
Flipping a district in a span of 15 minutes is bad enough, flipping the district in 15 minutes and then losing it in another 15 minutes is downright stupid. And in regards to your first concern, who cares if EVE side a system is 100% secured? Still let us fight there if we have to (but again, there are a ridiculous number of districts we could fight on). Ultimately they are two separate games and they don't have to coincide with everything. EVE have space FW, Dust has ground FW. They are two separate FWs with different ownership maps. They can help each other, but they aren't dependent on each other.
Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
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Shijima Kuraimaru
warravens League of Infamy
420
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Posted - 2013.12.13 09:55:00 -
[36] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:I'm sorry, but battle after battle on the same district where each battle instantly decides who owns the district makes no sense and will never make sense. If you want EVE players to love us, keep us in the general location, but not the same district.
Look, if Amarr captures a district, not only should they hold it safe for at least an hour based on principle, but owning the district also gives EVE players a plexing bonus and you have to at least give them the opportunity to take advantage of that before it gets flipped back.
Flipping a district in a span of 15 minutes is bad enough, flipping the district in 15 minutes and then losing it in another 15 minutes is downright stupid. And in regards to your first concern, who cares if EVE side a system is 100% secured? Still let us fight there if we have to (but again, there are a ridiculous number of districts we could fight on). Ultimately they are two separate games and they don't have to coincide with everything. EVE have space FW, Dust has ground FW. They are two separate FWs with different ownership maps. They can help each other, but they aren't dependent on each other.
You have no concept of where CCP is going with the New Eden universe. Dust and Eve, as has been pointed out by the higher ups, are not two separate games. They are two aspects of the same game. There's just still a lot of work to be done on the Eve/Dust interface.
I still can't find tanks on the market. All I see are those HAVs.
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Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1424
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Posted - 2013.12.13 15:44:00 -
[37] - Quote
It does make sense to fight on the same district over and over if you view them all as part of the same battle. Sort of like in WW1 how they constantly fought over the same ground on the front line. And the point here is for Dust to be an important part of the faction war in Eve. If we change the capture modifier in some system in the back end of nowhere that doesn't affect anyone. We want to actually do something that Eve players will notice. |
Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1424
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Posted - 2013.12.13 15:46:00 -
[38] - Quote
I'll add that it does make sense for it to become unavailable to attack at some point, just not after one battle. When the eve guys are fighting it out for an entire night I want to be there too. I like the idea of a multi-stage fight with a planetary command center eventually becoming vulnerable. Win that final fight, and the planet is secured for some time frame. |
Aero Yassavi
Scions of Athra
4021
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Posted - 2013.12.13 18:41:00 -
[39] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:I'll add that it does make sense for it to become unavailable to attack at some point, just not after one battle. When the eve guys are fighting it out for an entire night I want to be there too. I like the idea of a multi-stage fight with a planetary command center eventually becoming vulnerable. Win that final fight, and the planet is secured for some time frame. You can't always work things the same in Dust as you do in EVE. Now, if you want to not lock a single district after one attack fine, but then it needs to take more than one attack to flip a district. Like you said, multi-stage fights.
Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics League of Infamy
667
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Posted - 2013.12.13 22:18:00 -
[40] - Quote
I'll try to explain what Aero is saying this way:
Amarr wins a district (district A). Theoretically we have beat back the enemy and they need time to regroup. The next battle should be in a nearby district owned by the MInmatar (district B) because they have been pushed back. If they win the next battle, we get pushed back and the third battle occurs in district A once again. If not, they should logically get pushed back again and the third battle should be in yet another district, C. Et cetera. This is how it should work.
Instead, we win district A. Next battle, distrcict A. Win again. Third battle, yes, district A yet again. Theoretically you will NEVER gain any ground even if you win 20 battles in a row and slaughter entire divisions of enemy troops because you are never allowed to move on to another district. It's totally broken.
Instead, lets set it so that once a district is conquered, it stays safe for one hour (3 battles). District A is won. It is now safe, so the next battle can't be fought there. So, the fighting moves on to B, and C, and so on. If you don't set SOME lockout period, even if it's only for one or two battles, the minority side can't ever get anywhere.
"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics" -Sun Tzu
Amarr victor!
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Shijima Kuraimaru
warravens League of Infamy
431
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Posted - 2013.12.14 11:05:00 -
[41] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:I'll try to explain what Aero is saying this way:
Amarr wins a district (district A). Theoretically we have beat back the enemy and they need time to regroup. The next battle should be in a nearby district owned by the MInmatar (district B) because they have been pushed back. If they win the next battle, we get pushed back and the third battle occurs in district A once again. If not, they should logically get pushed back again and the third battle should be in yet another district, C. Et cetera. This is how it should work.
Instead, we win district A. Next battle, distrcict A. Win again. Third battle, yes, district A yet again. Theoretically you will NEVER gain any ground even if you win 20 battles in a row and slaughter entire divisions of enemy troops because you are never allowed to move on to another district. It's totally broken.
Instead, lets set it so that once a district is conquered, it stays safe for one hour (3 battles). District A is won. It is now safe, so the next battle can't be fought there. So, the fighting moves on to B, and C, and so on. If you don't set SOME lockout period, even if it's only for one or two battles, the minority side can't ever get anywhere.
And then you could well end up with mercs/squads/teams sitting and waiting on district timers to unlock because a faction has been pushed back to a couple of systems with maybe five or six planets to battle over.
Sure, the easy answer is "Then they can play pub matches while they wait.", but maybe they're in it for the faction warfare with little to no interest in public matches.
All in all, unnecessarily forcing people out of the area of they game they want to play is always a bad idea.
I still can't find tanks on the market. All I see are those HAVs.
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Aero Yassavi
Scions of Athra
4073
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Posted - 2013.12.14 13:18:00 -
[42] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:I'll try to explain what Aero is saying this way:
Amarr wins a district (district A). Theoretically we have beat back the enemy and they need time to regroup. The next battle should be in a nearby district owned by the MInmatar (district B) because they have been pushed back. If they win the next battle, we get pushed back and the third battle occurs in district A once again. If not, they should logically get pushed back again and the third battle should be in yet another district, C. Et cetera. This is how it should work.
Instead, we win district A. Next battle, distrcict A. Win again. Third battle, yes, district A yet again. Theoretically you will NEVER gain any ground even if you win 20 battles in a row and slaughter entire divisions of enemy troops because you are never allowed to move on to another district. It's totally broken.
Instead, lets set it so that once a district is conquered, it stays safe for one hour (3 battles). District A is won. It is now safe, so the next battle can't be fought there. So, the fighting moves on to B, and C, and so on. If you don't set SOME lockout period, even if it's only for one or two battles, the minority side can't ever get anywhere. And then you could well end up with mercs/squads/teams sitting and waiting on district timers to unlock because a faction has been pushed back to a couple of systems with maybe five or six planets to battle over. Sure, the easy answer is "Then they can play pub matches while they wait.", but maybe they're in it for the faction warfare with little to no interest in public matches. All in all, unnecessarily forcing people out of the area of they game they want to play is always a bad idea. Not at all. I do not believe you are aware of just how many districts are available in FW. We're not even remotely close to a situation where players would have to play pub matches while they wait.
What's a bad idea is allowing the enemy to continually attack the same district match after match after match until they win. Have you noticed that FW star map has always been 100% either side? That's why.
Angels of vengeance, angels of mercy, scions of Athra. Amarr Victor
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Shijima Kuraimaru
warravens League of Infamy
431
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Posted - 2013.12.14 20:39:00 -
[43] - Quote
Aero Yassavi wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:I'll try to explain what Aero is saying this way:
Amarr wins a district (district A). Theoretically we have beat back the enemy and they need time to regroup. The next battle should be in a nearby district owned by the MInmatar (district B) because they have been pushed back. If they win the next battle, we get pushed back and the third battle occurs in district A once again. If not, they should logically get pushed back again and the third battle should be in yet another district, C. Et cetera. This is how it should work.
Instead, we win district A. Next battle, distrcict A. Win again. Third battle, yes, district A yet again. Theoretically you will NEVER gain any ground even if you win 20 battles in a row and slaughter entire divisions of enemy troops because you are never allowed to move on to another district. It's totally broken.
Instead, lets set it so that once a district is conquered, it stays safe for one hour (3 battles). District A is won. It is now safe, so the next battle can't be fought there. So, the fighting moves on to B, and C, and so on. If you don't set SOME lockout period, even if it's only for one or two battles, the minority side can't ever get anywhere. And then you could well end up with mercs/squads/teams sitting and waiting on district timers to unlock because a faction has been pushed back to a couple of systems with maybe five or six planets to battle over. Sure, the easy answer is "Then they can play pub matches while they wait.", but maybe they're in it for the faction warfare with little to no interest in public matches. All in all, unnecessarily forcing people out of the area of they game they want to play is always a bad idea. Not at all. I do not believe you are aware of just how many districts are available in FW. We're not even remotely close to a situation where players would have to play pub matches while they wait. What's a bad idea is allowing the enemy to continually attack the same district match after match after match until they win. Have you noticed that FW star map has always been 100% either side? That's why.
Perhaps if you're getting the same districts over and over, maybe the selection of battle locations is limited due to one faction dominating and leaving fewer places to fight over. One can never really know without the ability to pick the FW districts one fights in.
I still can't find tanks on the market. All I see are those HAVs.
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