DUST Search - Why are Damage Modules High-Slot Items?

Templar 514 wrote:

I disagree with this. Not because I think armor should have gank+tank (though mobility really does count for a lot more than people credit), but because then the there are literally three (useful) modules that can go into high slots:

Myofibril Stimulants (melee damage bonus. On a slower-than-mud suit. Yes, that's totally a good idea)
Shield Extenders (which take up precious precious grid that's necessary for plates and reps)
Precision Enhancers (Range enhancers are low slots, and seeing slightly better in a 10m radius is not that useful)

So. Yeah. Right now there are really only two viable high slot mods, shield extenders and damage mods. Shield extenders are obviously subpar for armor tankers, which leaves damage mods as the only useful thing to stick in their high slots. Precision Enhancers are not especially useful unless you also add Range Enhancers, because being able to passive scan slightly better in a 10-15m radius is neither impressive or useful.

If we moved all of the electronics mods (damps, precision&range enhancers), or some more of the biotics mods (kincats/cardiacs) to high slots, or maybe introduced an armor hardener mod that went into high slots, and/or changed myofibs to also increase movement (but not sprint) speed, then yeah, damage mods going into low slots is something I can get behind.

If, however, all of the (useful) utility mods remain in the low slots (thus favoring shield tankers), and damage mods are moved to the low slot as well (also favoring shield tankers), then quite frankly I'd probably be forced to commit the gravest of heresies and shield tank my Amarr suits.

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Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1142	Posted - 2013.12.02 06:26:00 - [1] - Quote I've always found it strange that weapon damage modules are high slot items. Shield tanks are supposed to be hit and run, high damage, low HP units designed to do burst DPS then take cover to regenerate their HP quickly. The majority of shield modules are high slot items. Armor units are supposed to be slightly slower, moderate damage units with high HP designed to sit and take a lot of damage over a longer period of time, and thus tend to have pretty solid defenses but with longer regeneration times. Armor modules are generally low slot items. So why the hell are weapon damage mods high slot? Should the high damage output benefit, supposedly retained for shield units, not be low slot items? Instead they are built more for armor units because they don't infringe on the defensive slots that armor tanks rely on. As it stands armor is capable of significantly more base HP which is augmented by more benefit from armor skills. This allows massive amounts of effective HP, and then paired with damage mods in the high slots, allows them to have a full gambit defenses as well as the most damage output. I'm by no mean suggesting a massive nerf or buff to shields/armor, but I feel it would make a lot more sense if those damage modules were low slot items, and would alleviate much of the problems we currently see with Gallente units. ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
Sgt Kirk SyNergy Gaming EoN. 3151	Posted - 2013.12.02 06:28:00 - [2] - Quote My guess is because of the CPU cost. I would have said to correspond with EVE but I think DUST Developers have thrown away EVE logic in DUST. I'm not understanding why Reactive and Ferroscale plates aren't highslots because they are very CPU intensive.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1144	Posted - 2013.12.02 06:42:00 - [3] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: My guess is because of the CPU cost. I would have said to correspond with EVE but I think DUST Developers have thrown away EVE logic in DUST. I'm not understanding why Reactive and Ferroscale plates aren't highslots because they are very CPU intensive. But the high CPU cost should really mean shield units, since they tend to have the highest CPU. ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
Cody Sietz Unkn0wn Killers Renegade Alliance 1663	Posted - 2013.12.02 06:49:00 - [4] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: My guess is because of the CPU cost. I would have said to correspond with EVE but I think DUST Developers have thrown away EVE logic in DUST. I'm not understanding why Reactive and Ferroscale plates aren't highslots because they are very CPU intensive. I don't think you can move FS plates to the high slots since they resamble shield extenders but reactive plates for sure. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Saoa Scum Judge Mercenaries 27	Posted - 2013.12.02 06:53:00 - [5] - Quote Good to see im not the only one :)
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kinsho Swords Caldari State 151	Posted - 2013.12.02 06:56:00 - [6] - Quote I always thought that every suit should have at least ONE equipment slot . That means giving Logi's three at the least and the one's that have one , two slots and just make a damage mod an equipment slot item . This would allow much more flexibility in their fits and a ability to maximize their suit's potential . This thought makes a slot free in the high end for use and places something that could be considered an equipment item ( damage increasing module ) in it's proper place . " BANE " of ALL vehicle users , Crush , Kill and Destroy ALL vehicles !!!!!
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1145	Posted - 2013.12.02 06:57:00 - [7] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: I always thought that every suit should have at least ONE equipment slot . That means giving Logi's three at the least and the one's that have one , two slots and just make a damage mod an equipment slot item . This would allow much more flexibility in their fits and a ability to maximize their suit's potential . This thought makes a slot free in the high end for use and places something that could be considered an equipment item ( damage increasing module ) in it's proper place . Would this just not encourage the use of Logis as Assault suits due to having the highest damage output potential? ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
Templar 514 Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 55	Posted - 2013.12.02 06:58:00 - [8] - Quote I disagree with this. Not because I think armor should have gank+tank (though mobility really does count for a lot more than people credit), but because then the there are literally three (useful) modules that can go into high slots: Myofibril Stimulants (melee damage bonus. On a slower-than-mud suit. Yes, that's totally a good idea) Shield Extenders (which take up precious precious grid that's necessary for plates and reps) Precision Enhancers (Range enhancers are low slots, and seeing slightly better in a 10m radius is not that useful) So. Yeah. Right now there are really only two viable high slot mods, shield extenders and damage mods. Shield extenders are obviously subpar for armor tankers, which leaves damage mods as the only useful thing to stick in their high slots. Precision Enhancers are not especially useful unless you also add Range Enhancers, because being able to passive scan slightly better in a 10-15m radius is neither impressive or useful. If we moved all of the electronics mods (damps, precision&range enhancers), or some more of the biotics mods (kincats/cardiacs) to high slots, or maybe introduced an armor hardener mod that went into high slots, and/or changed myofibs to also increase movement (but not sprint) speed, then yeah, damage mods going into low slots is something I can get behind. If, however, all of the (useful) utility mods remain in the low slots (thus favoring shield tankers), and damage mods are moved to the low slot as well (also favoring shield tankers), then quite frankly I'd probably be forced to commit the gravest of heresies and shield tank my Amarr suits.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1145	Posted - 2013.12.02 07:01:00 - [9] - Quote Templar 514 wrote: I disagree with this. Not because I think armor should have gank+tank (though mobility really does count for a lot more than people credit), but because then the there are literally three (useful) modules that can go into high slots: Myofibril Stimulants (melee damage bonus. On a slower-than-mud suit. Yes, that's totally a good idea) Shield Extenders (which take up precious precious grid that's necessary for plates and reps) Precision Enhancers (Range enhancers are low slots, and seeing slightly better in a 10m radius is not that useful) So. Yeah. Right now there are really only two viable high slot mods, shield extenders and damage mods. Shield extenders are obviously subpar for armor tankers, which leaves damage mods as the only useful thing to stick in their high slots. Precision Enhancers are not especially useful unless you also add Range Enhancers, because being able to passive scan slightly better in a 10-15m radius is neither impressive or useful. If we moved all of the electronics mods (damps, precision&range enhancers), or some more of the biotics mods (kincats/cardiacs) to high slots, or maybe introduced an armor hardener mod that went into high slots, and/or changed myofibs to also increase movement (but not sprint) speed, then yeah, damage mods going into low slots is something I can get behind. If, however, all of the (useful) utility mods remain in the low slots (thus favoring shield tankers), and damage mods are moved to the low slot as well (also favoring shield tankers), then quite frankly I'd probably be forced to commit the gravest of heresies and shield tank my Amarr suits. I actually agree on a lot of that, I feel there are a lot of Low-Slot modules which should probably be moved to high. How I always envisioned it working is Shield units got extra damage, and armor units got extra utility (scanning modules, ect). So you're right in that there are few 'good' options for high slots, but damage modules should be low, and many of the current lows utilities should be high. ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 5677	Posted - 2013.12.02 07:02:00 - [10] - Quote Yep, shield tankers should definitely have literally every single useful utility module. Oh, and armour tankers should shield tank. Level 5 Forum Warrior Lenin of the glorious armoured revolution Supporter of CCP raRaRa.

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1145	Posted - 2013.12.02 07:07:00 - [11] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Yep, shield tankers should definitely have literally every single useful utility module. Oh, and armour tankers should shield tank. I think there is some misunderstanding here... what are you getting at? Did you not read what I just said about moving a number of low slot utility modules to high slots as well? ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 718	Posted - 2013.12.02 07:10:00 - [12] - Quote High power slots makes more sense than low power for damage mods. Low power mods that increase damage could be a tracking computer that reduce weapon spread. Yes. I am playing eve xD KDR > ALL ME > KDR ME > ALL
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1146	Posted - 2013.12.02 07:11:00 - [13] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: High power slots makes more sense than low power for damage mods. Low power mods that increase damage could be a tracking computer that increase ROF. Yes. I am playing eve xD >_> Even us tankers don't use tracking computers in Dust Its a shame we don't have drones in Dust yet, Gallente units could have a lot of fun with those. ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
Rynoceros Rise Of Old Dudes 1465	Posted - 2013.12.02 07:12:00 - [14] - Quote Because all of the other reasonably decent modules are already Lows? PG extenders should be Highs too. We need Mid Slots for Biotics. More for Scouts. Cheeseburgers.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1146	Posted - 2013.12.02 07:13:00 - [15] - Quote Rynoceros wrote: Because all of the other reasonably decent modules are already Lows? PG extenders should be Highs too. We need Mid Slots for Biotics. More for Scouts. Again, did you not read the posts in this thread? I already stated this sort of change would be best matched with a move of many low power utility modules to high slots. ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Kinsho Swords Caldari State 151	Posted - 2013.12.02 07:13:00 - [16] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: I always thought that every suit should have at least ONE equipment slot . That means giving Logi's three at the least and the one's that have one , two slots and just make a damage mod an equipment slot item . This would allow much more flexibility in their fits and a ability to maximize their suit's potential . This thought makes a slot free in the high end for use and places something that could be considered an equipment item ( damage increasing module ) in it's proper place . Would this just not encourage the use of Logis as Assault suits due to having the highest damage output potential? True and was not taken into consideration from my own naive . Thank you for the correction . " BANE " of ALL vehicle users , Crush , Kill and Destroy ALL vehicles !!!!!
Sgt Kirk SyNergy Gaming EoN. 3153	Posted - 2013.12.02 07:15:00 - [17] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: High power slots makes more sense than low power for damage mods. Low power mods that increase damage could be a tracking computer that reduce weapon spread. Yes. I am playing eve xD A RoF Module would be awesome awesome for low slots. but no time soon of course.
Templar 514 Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 55	Posted - 2013.12.02 07:19:00 - [18] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: I don't think you can move FS plates to the high slots since they resamble shield extenders but reactive plates for sure. In all honesty if there's going to be a high slot armor mod it should really be an armor hardener of some sort. If that happened, I'd also support a shield hardener being added for low slots, and perhaps an "armor repair pump" that buffed armor rep rate- taking the aggregate value of reppers, reactive plates, and any innate/built-in skill bonuses. Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: I always thought that every suit should have at least ONE equipment slot . That means giving Logi's three at the least and the one's that have one , two slots and just make a damage mod an equipment slot item . This would allow much more flexibility in their fits and a ability to maximize their suit's potential . This thought makes a slot free in the high end for use and places something that could be considered an equipment item ( damage increasing module ) in it's proper place . This makes no sense. Seriously, if I had two equip slots on my Amarr Assault, I'd run some combination of scanner, hives, and links. Maybe even Remotes/Proxies for AV fits. The other thing is that you have now made every heavy's wet dream come true, since they can now carry a nanohive, droplink, or scanner with them while gaining the benefits of massive EHP and heavy weapons. If the HMG worked as described, then HMG+Scanner would be the ultimate murderbeast, while a FG+hives would provide a nigh-endless bombardment from a tower Forge sniper. Finally, as I previously mentioned, damage mods and shield extenders are currently the only useful mods available in high slots. Myofibs are irrelevant- shield suits must compromise on tank to gain melee damage (this is generally dumb), while an armor suit is slower and thus unable to take advantage of increased melee damage. This is especially a problem for pure armor tanking- what else is a GalSalt player supposed to stick in his high slots? Shield Extenders? With a mediocre recharge rate and poor base shield- along with limited PG- this is a poor choice at best; that valuable PG is better put to use for plates+reps, while shields are ignored entirely. Shield Rechargers/Energizers are an even worse choice for an armor tanked suit, since again, shields are irrelevant on such a suit. Precision Enhancers? Even more ridiculous- with a 10m base scan radius, you're pretty much going to rely more on EHP to save you than actual warning from TacNET. Pokey Dravon wrote: Would this just not encourage the use of Logis as Assault suits due to having the highest damage output potential? It probably would, yes. I won't comment on the current Logisaulting proliferation as that's an entire topic in itself. Pokey Dravon wrote: I actually agree on a lot of that, I feel there are a lot of Low-Slot modules which should probably be moved to high. How I always envisioned it working is Shield units got extra damage, and armor units got extra utility (scanning modules, ect). So you're right in that there are few 'good' options for high slots, but damage modules should be low, and many of the current lows utilities should be high. I recommend you clarify this position in your OP, to avoid having legions of armor tankers (or guys who want balance in general) from dogpiling your thread and telling you 'you are stupid', since the thread would quickly degenerate into uselessness. That said, if damage went into the lows, and I could pile utility mods into highs, I don't think I'd mind that much. Of course, an armor hardening mod in the highs would sweeten the deal a bit (and a shield hardener mod, though whether it should be a high slot or a low slot is a bit of a question; shields already have shield regulators in the lows).
Templar 514 Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 55	Posted - 2013.12.02 07:21:00 - [19] - Quote Because of lolquotelimits: Pokey Dravon wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Yep, shield tankers should definitely have literally every single useful utility module. Oh, and armour tankers should shield tank. I think there is some misunderstanding here... what are you getting at? Did you not read what I just said about moving a number of low slot utility modules to high slots as well? In Wyrnspire's defense, your post just prior to his (hers? Sometimes hard to tell on the internet) is timestamped a literal minute before his.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1147	Posted - 2013.12.02 07:23:00 - [20] - Quote Templar 514 wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I actually agree on a lot of that, I feel there are a lot of Low-Slot modules which should probably be moved to high. How I always envisioned it working is Shield units got extra damage, and armor units got extra utility (scanning modules, ect). So you're right in that there are few 'good' options for high slots, but damage modules should be low, and many of the current lows utilities should be high. I recommend you clarify this position in your OP, to avoid having legions of armor tankers (or guys who want balance in general) from dogpiling your thread and telling you 'you are stupid', since the thread would quickly degenerate into uselessness. That said, if damage went into the lows, and I could pile utility mods into highs, I don't think I'd mind that much. Of course, an armor hardening mod in the highs would sweeten the deal a bit (and a shield hardener mod, though whether it should be a high slot or a low slot is a bit of a question; shields already have shield regulators in the lows). I actually already did add a footnote in there to clarify. It was something I had in the back of my head but forgot to initially post. Granted many will just read the title of the thread and immediately go into mindless rage mode, but that's the internet for you. Also you're right, he did post very soon after my prior post went up. I apologize if I came off as rude in my response, it was not my intention. ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes

Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 719	Posted - 2013.12.02 07:26:00 - [21] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: High power slots makes more sense than low power for damage mods. Low power mods that increase damage could be a tracking computer that reduce weapon spread. Yes. I am playing eve xD A RoF Module would be awesome awesome for low slots. but no time soon of course. Its funny how EVE has tenfolds of module variants for each skill. While we get one (At most three from armor plating). Somehow the SP grind for everything in dust doesnt make sense any more :( Off topic: A low SP EVE character is useful. You can fit a frigate with warp scramblers and help out a fleet. A low SP character in dust........... useless! KDR > ALL ME > KDR ME > ALL
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1147	Posted - 2013.12.02 07:28:00 - [22] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: High power slots makes more sense than low power for damage mods. Low power mods that increase damage could be a tracking computer that reduce weapon spread. Yes. I am playing eve xD A RoF Module would be awesome awesome for low slots. but no time soon of course. Its funny how EVE has tenfolds of module variants for each skill. While we get one (At most three from armor plating). Somehow the SP grind for everything in dust doesnt make sense any more :( Off topic: A low SP EVE character is useful. You can fit a frigate with warp scramblers and help out a fleet. A low SP character in dust........... useless! Meat shield? But you're right, there is a lack of variety in Dust. It is my hope that in time when things get a little less crazy and a little more balanced, we'll see a fleshing-out of modules into more unique varients. ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
Alena Ventrallis Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 191	Posted - 2013.12.02 07:37:00 - [23] - Quote Templar 514 wrote: That said, if damage went into the lows, and I could pile utility mods into highs, I don't think I'd mind that much. Of course, an armor hardening mod in the highs would sweeten the deal a bit (and a shield hardener mod, though whether it should be a high slot or a low slot is a bit of a question; shields already have shield regulators in the lows). Personally, I'm against hardeners. Imagine how OP amarr suits would be, with lots of armor and lots of hardeners. Instead, make an armor pump that increases armor repair rate. Shields weakness is the recharge delay. Regulators shore this up. Armors weakness is the slow regen. An armor pump would shore this up.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1147	Posted - 2013.12.02 07:46:00 - [24] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Templar 514 wrote: That said, if damage went into the lows, and I could pile utility mods into highs, I don't think I'd mind that much. Of course, an armor hardening mod in the highs would sweeten the deal a bit (and a shield hardener mod, though whether it should be a high slot or a low slot is a bit of a question; shields already have shield regulators in the lows). Personally, I'm against hardeners. Imagine how OP amarr suits would be, with lots of armor and lots of hardeners. Instead, make an armor pump that increases armor repair rate. Shields weakness is the recharge delay. Regulators shore this up. Armors weakness is the slow regen. An armor pump would shore this up. Armor Pump isn't a bad idea really. As for hardeners, I think damage specific resistance amps for both shield and armor would be an interesting addition. It would allow you to resist against specific types of damage and tailor your defenses based off of what the enemy is using. For example a Explosive Armor Resistance Amp would reduce explosive damage to armor by X% but not affect other damage types. ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 1912	Posted - 2013.12.02 09:33:00 - [25] - Quote You dont understand the ways of caldari and gallente. Gallente are getting up close and shot you to pieces with blasters (highest damaging weapons) while the caldari are long range sepcialists and not really used for ultra high damage output. Just look at cruise missiles. With the right ship you get a range of 200km quite easy. I shall show you a world, a world which you cant imagine, a world full off butthurt n00bs at the other end of my gun
Azri Sarum BurgezzE.T.F Public Disorder. 154	Posted - 2013.12.02 11:26:00 - [26] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: My guess is because of the CPU cost. I would have said to correspond with EVE but I think DUST Developers have thrown away EVE logic in DUST. I'm not understanding why Reactive and Ferroscale plates aren't highslots because they are very CPU intensive. Thrown away most of it, and the rest they got backwards. Its rather depressing because much of what EVE has can be brought over intact. They do not need to spend time trying to re-invent everything, just tweaking whatever doesn't feel quite right. Damage mods should be low slot, so shield tanks can use proper hit and run tactics. Many of the low slot utility modules should be high slots... Seriously... is anyone else just baffled at how a game, taking place in the same universe as an existing game, bringing with it (supposedly) everything that universe has, could get so many things wrong? Its the same fracking company .... Spectral Clone wrote: High power slots makes more sense than low power for damage mods. Low power mods that increase damage could be a tracking computer that reduce weapon spread. Yes. I am playing eve xD Might want to pay a bit closer attention to it then since tracking computers are harder to fit than most damage mods EVE - Victor Maximus DUST - Azri Sarum
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 721	Posted - 2013.12.02 11:29:00 - [27] - Quote Azri Sarum wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: My guess is because of the CPU cost. I would have said to correspond with EVE but I think DUST Developers have thrown away EVE logic in DUST. I'm not understanding why Reactive and Ferroscale plates aren't highslots because they are very CPU intensive. Thrown away most of it, and the rest they got backwards. Its rather depressing because much of what EVE has can be brought over intact. They do not need to spend time trying to re-invent everything, just tweaking whatever doesn't feel quite right. Damage mods should be low slot, so shield tanks can use proper hit and run tactics. Many of the low slot utility modules should be high slots... Seriously... is anyone else just baffled at how a game, taking place in the same universe as an existing game, bringing with it (supposedly) everything that universe has, could get so many things wrong? Its the same fracking company .... Spectral Clone wrote: High power slots makes more sense than low power for damage mods. Low power mods that increase damage could be a tracking computer that reduce weapon spread. Yes. I am playing eve xD Might want to pay a bit closer attention to it then since tracking computers are harder to fit than most damage mods Well, a computer does not need CPU to operate, it needs PG. High slots = CPU intensive (in Dust 514) Low Slots = PG intensive (in Dust 514) So in some sense it would only draw PG. EDIT: Yeah, i-¦m still an EVE noob. I was refering to gyro stabilizers! KDR > ALL ME > KDR ME > ALL
Ekrano Fergus Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 21	Posted - 2013.12.02 12:03:00 - [28] - Quote When you think about it dust high slots are more like eve mid slots, while weapon and equipment slots would be high slots in eve. /)_/) ( . .) C(") (")
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4236	Posted - 2013.12.02 12:07:00 - [29] - Quote You do understand that armor and shields at the prototype level have near exact same HP values right? My Gallente assault - 504 My Caldari Assault: 490~ And I have armor maxed while I can still go further with shields. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4236	Posted - 2013.12.02 12:10:00 - [30] - Quote Also, you're forgetting that armor tanking as infantry means you have very low regeneration compared to shields, unlike EVE and vehicles in Dust where armor reps are pretty god damned powerful. If you move damage mods to low slots, I BETTER get both an HP buff so there will actually be a major HP difference, AND get my fricking active armor reps Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives.



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