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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1142
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Posted - 2013.12.02 06:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've always found it strange that weapon damage modules are high slot items.
Shield tanks are supposed to be hit and run, high damage, low HP units designed to do burst DPS then take cover to regenerate their HP quickly. The majority of shield modules are high slot items.
Armor units are supposed to be slightly slower, moderate damage units with high HP designed to sit and take a lot of damage over a longer period of time, and thus tend to have pretty solid defenses but with longer regeneration times. Armor modules are generally low slot items.
So why the hell are weapon damage mods high slot? Should the high damage output benefit, supposedly retained for shield units, not be low slot items? Instead they are built more for armor units because they don't infringe on the defensive slots that armor tanks rely on.
As it stands armor is capable of significantly more base HP which is augmented by more benefit from armor skills. This allows massive amounts of effective HP, and then paired with damage mods in the high slots, allows them to have a full gambit defenses as well as the most damage output.
I'm by no mean suggesting a massive nerf or buff to shields/armor, but I feel it would make a lot more sense if those damage modules were low slot items, and would alleviate much of the problems we currently see with Gallente units.
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Pokey Dravon
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1144
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Posted - 2013.12.02 06:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:My guess is because of the CPU cost. I would have said to correspond with EVE but I think DUST Developers have thrown away EVE logic in DUST.
I'm not understanding why Reactive and Ferroscale plates aren't highslots because they are very CPU intensive.
But the high CPU cost should really mean shield units, since they tend to have the highest CPU.
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Pokey Dravon
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Posted - 2013.12.02 06:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:I always thought that every suit should have at least ONE equipment slot . That means giving Logi's three at the least and the one's that have one , two slots and just make a damage mod an equipment slot item . This would allow much more flexibility in their fits and a ability to maximize their suit's potential . This thought makes a slot free in the high end for use and places something that could be considered an equipment item ( damage increasing module ) in it's proper place .
Would this just not encourage the use of Logis as Assault suits due to having the highest damage output potential?
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Pokey Dravon
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1145
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Posted - 2013.12.02 07:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
Templar 514 wrote:I disagree with this. Not because I think armor should have gank+tank (though mobility really does count for a lot more than people credit), but because then the there are literally three (useful) modules that can go into high slots:
Myofibril Stimulants (melee damage bonus. On a slower-than-mud suit. Yes, that's totally a good idea) Shield Extenders (which take up precious precious grid that's necessary for plates and reps) Precision Enhancers (Range enhancers are low slots, and seeing slightly better in a 10m radius is not that useful)
So. Yeah. Right now there are really only two viable high slot mods, shield extenders and damage mods. Shield extenders are obviously subpar for armor tankers, which leaves damage mods as the only useful thing to stick in their high slots. Precision Enhancers are not especially useful unless you also add Range Enhancers, because being able to passive scan slightly better in a 10-15m radius is neither impressive or useful.
If we moved all of the electronics mods (damps, precision&range enhancers), or some more of the biotics mods (kincats/cardiacs) to high slots, or maybe introduced an armor hardener mod that went into high slots, and/or changed myofibs to also increase movement (but not sprint) speed, then yeah, damage mods going into low slots is something I can get behind.
If, however, all of the (useful) utility mods remain in the low slots (thus favoring shield tankers), and damage mods are moved to the low slot as well (also favoring shield tankers), then quite frankly I'd probably be forced to commit the gravest of heresies and shield tank my Amarr suits.
I actually agree on a lot of that, I feel there are a lot of Low-Slot modules which should probably be moved to high. How I always envisioned it working is Shield units got extra damage, and armor units got extra utility (scanning modules, ect). So you're right in that there are few 'good' options for high slots, but damage modules should be low, and many of the current lows utilities should be high.
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Pokey Dravon
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1145
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Posted - 2013.12.02 07:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Yep, shield tankers should definitely have literally every single useful utility module. Oh, and armour tankers should shield tank.
I think there is some misunderstanding here... what are you getting at?
Did you not read what I just said about moving a number of low slot utility modules to high slots as well?
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1146
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Posted - 2013.12.02 07:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
Spectral Clone wrote:High power slots makes more sense than low power for damage mods. Low power mods that increase damage could be a tracking computer that increase ROF.
Yes. I am playing eve xD
>_> Even us tankers don't use tracking computers in Dust
Its a shame we don't have drones in Dust yet, Gallente units could have a lot of fun with those.
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Pokey Dravon
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1146
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Posted - 2013.12.02 07:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
Rynoceros wrote:Because all of the other reasonably decent modules are already Lows?
PG extenders should be Highs too.
We need Mid Slots for Biotics. More for Scouts.
Again, did you not read the posts in this thread? I already stated this sort of change would be best matched with a move of many low power utility modules to high slots.
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Pokey Dravon
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1147
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Posted - 2013.12.02 07:23:00 -
[8] - Quote
Templar 514 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:I actually agree on a lot of that, I feel there are a lot of Low-Slot modules which should probably be moved to high. How I always envisioned it working is Shield units got extra damage, and armor units got extra utility (scanning modules, ect). So you're right in that there are few 'good' options for high slots, but damage modules should be low, and many of the current lows utilities should be high. I recommend you clarify this position in your OP, to avoid having legions of armor tankers (or guys who want balance in general) from dogpiling your thread and telling you 'you are stupid', since the thread would quickly degenerate into uselessness. That said, if damage went into the lows, and I could pile utility mods into highs, I don't think I'd mind that much. Of course, an armor hardening mod in the highs would sweeten the deal a bit (and a shield hardener mod, though whether it should be a high slot or a low slot is a bit of a question; shields already have shield regulators in the lows).
I actually already did add a footnote in there to clarify. It was something I had in the back of my head but forgot to initially post. Granted many will just read the title of the thread and immediately go into mindless rage mode, but that's the internet for you.
Also you're right, he did post very soon after my prior post went up. I apologize if I came off as rude in my response, it was not my intention.
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Pokey Dravon
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1147
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Posted - 2013.12.02 07:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
Spectral Clone wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:Spectral Clone wrote:High power slots makes more sense than low power for damage mods. Low power mods that increase damage could be a tracking computer that reduce weapon spread.
Yes. I am playing eve xD A RoF Module would be awesome awesome for low slots. but no time soon of course. Its funny how EVE has tenfolds of module variants for each skill. While we get one (At most three from armor plating). Somehow the SP grind for everything in dust doesnt make sense any more :( Off topic: A low SP EVE character is useful. You can fit a frigate with warp scramblers and help out a fleet. A low SP character in dust........... useless!
Meat shield?
But you're right, there is a lack of variety in Dust. It is my hope that in time when things get a little less crazy and a little more balanced, we'll see a fleshing-out of modules into more unique varients.
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Pokey Dravon
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Posted - 2013.12.02 07:46:00 -
[10] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Templar 514 wrote:That said, if damage went into the lows, and I could pile utility mods into highs, I don't think I'd mind that much. Of course, an armor hardening mod in the highs would sweeten the deal a bit (and a shield hardener mod, though whether it should be a high slot or a low slot is a bit of a question; shields already have shield regulators in the lows). Personally, I'm against hardeners. Imagine how OP amarr suits would be, with lots of armor and lots of hardeners. Instead, make an armor pump that increases armor repair rate. Shields weakness is the recharge delay. Regulators shore this up. Armors weakness is the slow regen. An armor pump would shore this up.
Armor Pump isn't a bad idea really.
As for hardeners, I think damage specific resistance amps for both shield and armor would be an interesting addition. It would allow you to resist against specific types of damage and tailor your defenses based off of what the enemy is using. For example a Explosive Armor Resistance Amp would reduce explosive damage to armor by X% but not affect other damage types.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1152
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Posted - 2013.12.02 20:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
Poonmunch wrote:Which slots do the damage mods go in EVE?
Munch
Typically Low. There are a few exceptions but generally speaking they're low slot items. Scanners, EWAR, Target Painters, ect go in Medium Slots, though in Dust that means High. (High Slots in EVE are for weapons and a handful of other modules. Medium Slots in EVE are equivalent to High slots in Dust.)
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1156
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Posted - 2013.12.02 23:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
Needless Sacermendor wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:In an FPS environment going SLOWER is bad, generally. So to make up for it they have better health and access to better damage but generally armor tankers don't have many high slots.
Shield tankers have high mobility and relatively high up time and can engage far more frequently thus damage is not as important as oh say speed to duck in and out of combat which is a low slot item. This ^^ You people seriously want to be able to run rings round armour tankers AND out DPS them !?
It really comes down to what sort of roles the developers envision for armor/shield. Admittedly I can't read their minds and don't have as much of a communication with them as I like, so I'm not sure what their overall vision is.
I suppose the real question I raise about this is, how should shield units better deal with damage mod stacked armor units? There is a problem currently with the system feeling one sided (Funny since shields were far superior before). I
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Pokey Dravon
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Posted - 2013.12.02 23:12:00 -
[13] - Quote
mini rehak wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
Shield tanks are supposed to be hit and run, high damage, low HP units designed to do burst DPS then take cover to regenerate their HP quickly. The majority of shield modules are high slot items.
You do realize that if you run Damage mods on a Shield based dropsuit you are running high damage low hp?
I'm referring to the fact that shield extenders offer far less HP than armor plates.
Whereas right now armor can run High HP, High Damage
EDIT: Also, I dont have the values available at the moment, but are Gallente and Caldari dropsuits the same movement speed? If so, the Gallente should be increased to offset that speed penalty from armor modules.
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Pokey Dravon
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Posted - 2013.12.02 23:30:00 -
[14] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Well if an armor tanker wanted to have lots of HP and go fast, he can't reliably do it, because one plate is more than enough to cancel the effects of any kinkat he could install.
You raise some good points, though I'm still not entirely convinced that the current setup is ideal. We should get together and chat sometime about some of these topics, I'd enjoy your insight.
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