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Oswald Rehnquist
430
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Posted - 2013.11.05 23:37:00 -
[1] - Quote
First congratulations on the improvement to hit detection, it does make shooting more fun for the larger community, whether that was hitbox increasing or shot registration, its definitely better
But I am a little skeptical that CCP play tested any scouts in this build, which makes me wonder how 1.7 is going to turn up because I have a feeling CCP is going off of theory than actual game play or worst case scenario doesn't care. Considering what pieces of information they have released for 1.7 and what they have not released, it seems more bones are being thrown to certain people over others.
First off, I am still holding positive ratios (about 1.4 if kdr was resetted) but its a hell of a challenge now, mostly its just finding the dumb assault players and over extensive planning for the seasoned ones, I prefer more defensive scouts builds anyways (stealth, cover, etc), but even those defenses are now being breached significantly, this is not even considering the even harder hit to the more offensive scouts builds, which I no longer see as viable, though that might just be my choice of weapons because I don't use mass drivers and I don't use any AR like weapon. I also don't brick tank my scout to act like a medium frame. So this just might be my needing to "adapt or die" but I'm not too keen an adapting myself to a medium frame, or I would just play it.
So scouts can't scout as effectively because moving becomes a sever liability with hit detection seemingly extending range distance and dps to even greater strides. On a non patch related note, proto scanners and focus scanners gained a boost in popularity too (I'm guessing focus for the fitting reduction and not to catch scouts).
What CCP did give us though was a radius buff, which works surprisingly well when you work in an abandoned but friendly objective and set up remotes, hide in a ditch, and patrol multiple installations, but this is painful to partake in because its high risk despite the fact it is literally thy most defensive set up we can do while still being relevant. It also does not have the same thrill as stalking individuals.
Mind you I am still adapting but this is what I have seen of the actual scout like scout builds that are viable are the kamikaze shotgunner, and the regional defense sniper or scp user. And I believe that regional defense build is the best scout build this patch at any rate, I liked mixing my offense and defense but I think defense is where its going to be for the month.
Anyways glad to hear any thoughts on this, later tonight I will make a page of recommendations which I think are needed. On the plus side I think this means that perhaps the AR514 crowd might be more accepting of more radical scout changes.
Below 28 dB
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Protocake JR
Spyders Inc.
905
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Posted - 2013.11.05 23:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'm just going to drop this here. |
Oswald Rehnquist
431
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Posted - 2013.11.05 23:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
I've covered my thoughts on Assault Rifles and brick tanking scouts in the original post already, it is quite effective, though most players don't do 50 unassisted to begin with so I'm going to suspect some outside help whether with either vehicles or orbitals.
And if you happen to be that pro to go 50, then I'd say you are the exception then.
Below 28 dB
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Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis
1985
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Posted - 2013.11.06 06:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
Solid writeup. Looking forward to hearing more of your observations and ideas. o7 |
Oswald Rehnquist
441
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Posted - 2013.11.06 06:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
I didn't expect this thread to come back from the grave yard,
Now I really got to finish my scout write up, dam.
I'll start piecing stuff together, I'll also throw up a link in the scout boards too. This is more of a do or die moment, so I'll be comprehensive.
Below 28 dB
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Vitharr Foebane
Blood Money Mercenaries
194
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Posted - 2013.11.06 06:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
Welcome to the "point defense" club. Enjoy your stay it's gonna be a while =.=
Dedicated fattie in need of new heavy content.
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Niuvo
NECROM0NGERS
708
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Posted - 2013.11.06 06:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
Sadly the scout is dead, it's a pain to get him in the battlefield. He refuses to spawn. So I can't play. He refuses to spawn, he just sits in the MQ's couch all depressed, his NKs on the floor somewhere. |
Cyrius Li-Moody
The New Age Outlaws WINMATAR.
1639
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Posted - 2013.11.06 06:16:00 -
[8] - Quote
I am not camping the objective. I am tactically securing the location for defensive purposes.
Check out & sub my youtube. Yay!
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Vitharr Foebane
Blood Money Mercenaries
195
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Posted - 2013.11.06 06:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
Cyrius Li-Moody wrote:I am not camping the objective. I am tactically securing the location for defensive purposes. Whatever helps to make the shame go away...
Dedicated fattie in need of new heavy content.
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Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis
1987
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Posted - 2013.11.06 06:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
Oswald Rehnquist wrote: I'll also throw up a link in the scout boards too. Already done. Might want to take a look at "Hiding" in your title ... unless this is one of those intentional misspellings for added affect ... those always throw me off :-) |
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Oswald Rehnquist
444
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Posted - 2013.11.06 06:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
Shotty GoBang wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote: I'll also throw up a link in the scout boards too. Already done. Might want to take a look at "Hiding" in your title ... unless this is one of those intentional misspellings for added affect ... those always throw me off :-)
Just making sure your situation awareness was still sharp...
Below 28 dB
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Oswald Rehnquist
444
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Posted - 2013.11.06 07:10:00 -
[12] - Quote
Part 1: Introduction
Scouts need help, and versatility which can cater to several of our playstyles between scouts and offensive and defense build within a single scout are needed.
I also know that scouts have already been processed by CCP, but I can guarantee you that they will not be polished or complete in the slightest, in fact I bet itGÇÖs going to be rather stale.
Now for the Basic concept of scout roles in other games
Lurker, Harrier, Demolition, and Support.
I've also paired up the role as followed
Lurker-Gal, Demolition-Min, Support-Ama, Harrier-Cal
I also believe the scouts saving grace will be through something scout exclusive, which I have advocated through special scout active modules as I have outlined previously which I will link here as an example, https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1423666#post1423666
We can talk about the specifics on this later link, for now we need to cover role diversification and effectiveness, I'll be breaking it down into several parts based on each race/role, so you can just quote that piece, it would also allow me to expand upon this more and implement appropriate feedback as it comes, because I don't think I will be able to finish this whole thing tonight.
Lurker (Gal) Scout coming up next
Below 28 dB
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Matticus Monk
Ordus Trismegistus
644
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 07:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
I had some horrible games today, with my only slight successes coming from hunting snipers and point defense; two of my least favorite play styles due to the boredom - there is really no use to even use a scout suit for these types of jobs as installations provide their own detection of reds, and sniper hunting would be easier with an active scanner.
I'm looking forward to your writeup, thanks for putting your thoughts down.
As much as I have enjoyed the scout play style for the past 9 months, it has done nothing except become more and more trying and annoying to me.
I even had a brief moment this morning when I specced into a scout suit on an alternate character who is a logi and decided to play him as a Minja scout from now on. Now, I really feel stupid.... that was like 400k SP down the drain; he survived even less than my Gal scout on this account.
Here is to hoping that future days in this build see us adapt in new ways which can restore our effectiveness, that CCP will fine-tune DPS so that time to kill goes up, and that they fix nova knives for real this time (I feel sorry for you, my knifing brothers).....
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hgghyujh
Expert Intervention Caldari State
158
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 08:15:00 -
[14] - Quote
Oswald Rehnquist wrote:First congratulations on the improvement to hit detection, it does make shooting more fun for the larger community, whether that was hitbox increasing or shot registration, its definitely better
But I am a little skeptical that CCP play tested any scouts in this build, which makes me wonder how 1.7 is going to turn up because I have a feeling CCP is going off of theory than actual game play or worst case scenario doesn't care. Considering what pieces of information they have released for 1.7 and what they have not released, it seems more bones are being thrown to certain people over others.
First off, I am still holding positive ratios (about 1.4 if kdr was resetted) but its a hell of a challenge now, mostly its just finding the dumb assault players and over extensive planning for the seasoned ones, I prefer more defensive scouts builds anyways (stealth, cover, etc), but even those defenses are now being breached significantly, this is not even considering the even harder hit to the more offensive scouts builds, which I no longer see as viable, though that might just be my choice of weapons because I don't use mass drivers and I don't use any AR like weapon. I also don't brick tank my scout to act like a medium frame. So this just might be my needing to "adapt or die" but I'm not too keen an adapting myself to a medium frame, or I would just play it.
So scouts can't scout as effectively because moving becomes a sever liability with hit detection seemingly extending range distance and dps to even greater strides. On a non patch related note, proto scanners and focus scanners gained a boost in popularity too (I'm guessing focus for the fitting reduction and not to catch scouts).
What CCP did give us though was a radius buff, which works surprisingly well when you work in an abandoned but friendly objective and set up remotes, hide in a ditch, and patrol multiple installations, but this is painful to partake in because its high risk despite the fact it is literally thy most defensive set up we can do while still being relevant. It also does not have the same thrill as stalking individuals.
Mind you I am still adapting but this is what I have seen of the actual scout like scout builds that are viable are the kamikaze shotgunner, and the regional defense sniper or scp user. And I believe that regional defense build is the best scout build this patch at any rate, I liked mixing my offense and defense but I think defense is where its going to be for the month.
Anyways glad to hear any thoughts on this, later tonight I will make a page of recommendations which I think are needed. On the plus side I think this means that perhaps the AR514 crowd might be more accepting of more radical scout changes.
All suits need an HP buff but this last build has been better for scouts then almost anyone else, that said yea scouts are still hurting. |
Import Beercase
Beer For Evil Mercs
45
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 09:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
I have Gallente Scout on level 3 and all electronics skills at level 3.
I use shotgun and cheap modules on it. I had about 10 games last night and I found that shotgun scout work fine if camping and chuggin beer and there is a reason for enemies to rush in to the area. Maybe not the most interesting way of playing but I was alone at objective on several fw games and got around 3 kills to one death. Yeah my gungame sucks but still it was effective way of stalling enemy attacks and wait for reinforcements to come.
I was just thinking all this talk about scouts. What people want to be able to do with scouts? I wont stand a chance if somebody with good situational awarness is against me. The suit I use melts in seconds if get shot by anything. I cant go outdoors with it or the wind blows me down. I think the scout suit and heavy suits are assets that need to be used when needed. I play with basic medium frames about 70% of the battle and logistic, heavy and scout gets about 10% of my play time.
For now I think that my gal scout and the playstyle I use works for me but I feel bad about people who have spent millions of sp on scout related skills and suits. Dunno about novaknives but I would not risk my isk for them. Thanks for you all who have tried them and tell it here because I might have spent more sp on suit/weapons that works in so few situations.
"If at first you don't succeed, mccdiving is not for you."
Take me drunk, I'm home
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Aero Yassavi
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
3586
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 09:41:00 -
[16] - Quote
In the beginning: Scouts were super fast, poor hit-detection made them nearly impossible to kill. CCP Response: We will make scouts slower to compensate for the poor hit detection.
In the now: Hit detection has been vastly improved. Scouts, with reduced speed, are now dead in nearly every situation. (Hopeful) CCP Response: Since hit detection is vastly improved, let's make the scouts fast again.
Amarr faithful, join PIE Inc, the oldest EVE/Dust Amarr loyal corporation!
Amarr Victor!
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Laurent Cazaderon
What The French
2006
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 10:14:00 -
[17] - Quote
I already said that in different topics. But like, you already pointed out, the improved HD. That actually feels like it should be on a FPS game is probably the main and most important improvement in a long time technicaly speaking.
It's only logical that many things need to be tweaked to fit it now. Like overall decrease of weapons damage, rising up scouts speed closer to chromosome. Or tone down aim assist
I dont think there's a need for too many nor too deep changes tbh. But changes are needed. Let's just remember that they're needed in response to something good. And that's the best kind of changes
This Char i only use on the forum.
To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype.
Et vive la France !
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Spectral Clone
Dust2Dust. Top Men.
313
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 10:16:00 -
[18] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:I already said that in different topics. But like, you already pointed out, the improved HD. That actually feels like it should be on a FPS game is probably the main and most important improvement in a long time technicaly speaking. It's only logical that many things need to be tweaked to fit it now. Like overall decrease of weapons damage, rising up scouts speed closer to chromosome. Or tone down aim assist I dont think there's a need for too many nor too deep changes tbh. But changes are needed. Let's just remember that they're needed in response to something good. And that's the best kind of changes
When is the hotfix deployed?
GûîGöéGûêGòæGûîGòæGûîGòæ la+äa+ú-ö-¦ +º-¦a¦Åt-ö-éta¦Ça¦Åa+á -ö+É-öa+¼-öa+ä-¦ a+¼a¦Çll a+áa¦Åt a+úa+ä+¬-ö +Éa¦Åa+ó +ª-¦a¦Åa¦ô t-Æa¦Ça+ú a¦Æ-öa+äa¦ô... GòæGûîGòæGûîGòæGûêGöéGûî
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Oswald Rehnquist
448
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 10:56:00 -
[19] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:I already said that in different topics. But like, you already pointed out, the improved HD. That actually feels like it should be on a FPS game is probably the main and most important improvement in a long time technicaly speaking. It's only logical that many things need to be tweaked to fit it now. Like overall decrease of weapons damage, rising up scouts speed closer to chromosome. Or tone down aim assist I dont think there's a need for too many nor too deep changes tbh. But changes are needed. Let's just remember that they're needed in response to something good. And that's the best kind of changes
Scouts weren't good before 1.6, , by not good I mean they were in no shape or form able to penetrate the highest organized battles of pc with objective defenders and pro tactics, so yes, major changes are still needed to make scouts pc ready. Otherwise scouts are just a unit designed entirely for the lols in pubs and FW where you have scrubs to take advantage of.
Vehicles, forge gun heavies, logis, and assaults are common sights in pc, scouts never were. I honestly don't think people really grasp the actual significance behind that.
No one could have played under these mechanics as a scout and said, oh yea working as intended, and none of the reasons for not catching this sound remotely good. The hardest aspect is coming to reality that this is not a multi role shooter, scouts aren't the only ones effected, go down the the next 10 pages, I'm sure they are all from today and you'll see a whole list of weapons and suits that that are no longer valid and competitive. If needed I can still post the links for them. I posted on the scout because 1.6 quite literally nullified an entire suit, you can switch guns a lot easier than you can switch suits, especially with the extra sp investment it takes to make a functional scout.
Also I don't think a simple 10% reduction across the board is going to work anymore either, honest balance is going to need actual intelligent thought,
If pin point auto fire has become supreme with everything receiving a 10% buff why aren't the others non auto fire weapons performing as well? Especially considering that the changes effected everything. This suggests is that the HD improvements is more complicated and favors pin point auto fire, despite the fact that all weapons got that 10% buff. Now would a blanket reduction balance weapons? Does the burst ar need the same 10% reduction like the other ar variants? Does the mass driver need the 10% reduction? The forge? Scram Pistol, Etc? While I don't have the answer to these, you'd have to see that the formula has radically changed to where the old numbers, the same flat ratios, are not the same anymore.
Below 28 dB
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Kasote Denzara
A Vulture
685
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 11:01:00 -
[20] - Quote
If it does brick tank with 800+ HP, carry a Plasma Rifle that kills within a second, and carry one-shot grenades, then it doesn't deserve to be used.
- AR 514
I go commando in my Commando. Feels good, man.
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Niuvo
NECROM0NGERS
717
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 11:45:00 -
[21] - Quote
I think the way I'm going to survive this month is with armor and reps, REs and that's all. Hiding will be my best tactic. I quote someone "I can't go outdoors [in a scout]" lol. I'm baffled that the only way to protect myself (knives) is poor. This is me trying to adapt. This is me not playing to my full potential.
If I had a respec I would do it all again in the hopes of a better patch down the road. |
Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire
561
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 13:24:00 -
[22] - Quote
Oswald Rehnquist wrote:Also I don't think a simple 10% reduction across the board is going to work anymore either, honest balance is going to need actual intelligent thought.
Too true. Does anyone really think making the scout go from dying in 0.2 seconds to 0.22222 seconds going magically make the scout viable again? |
Laurent Cazaderon
What The French
2009
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 13:35:00 -
[23] - Quote
Oswald Rehnquist wrote:Laurent Cazaderon wrote:I already said that in different topics. But like, you already pointed out, the improved HD. That actually feels like it should be on a FPS game is probably the main and most important improvement in a long time technicaly speaking. It's only logical that many things need to be tweaked to fit it now. Like overall decrease of weapons damage, rising up scouts speed closer to chromosome. Or tone down aim assist I dont think there's a need for too many nor too deep changes tbh. But changes are needed. Let's just remember that they're needed in response to something good. And that's the best kind of changes Scouts weren't good before 1.6 , by not good I mean they were in no shape or form able to penetrate the highest organized battles of pc with objective defenders and pro tactics, so yes, major changes are still needed to make scouts pc ready. Otherwise scouts are just a unit designed entirely for the lols in pubs and FW where you have scrubs to take advantage of. Vehicles, forge gun heavies, logis, and assaults are common sights in pc, scouts never were. I honestly don't think people really grasp the actual significance behind that. No one could have played under these mechanics as a scout and said, oh yea working as intended, and none of the reasons for not catching this sound remotely good. The hardest aspect is coming to reality that this is not a multi role shooter, scouts aren't the only ones effected, go down the the next 10 pages, I'm sure they are all from today and you'll see a whole list of weapons and suits that that are no longer valid and competitive. If needed I can still post the links for them. I posted on the scout because 1.6 quite literally nullified an entire suit, you can switch guns a lot easier than you can switch suits, especially with the extra sp investment it takes to make a functional scout. Also I don't think a simple 10% reduction across the board is going to work anymore either, honest balance is going to need actual intelligent thought, If pin point auto fire has become supreme with everything receiving a 10% buff why aren't the others non auto fire weapons performing as well? Especially considering that the changes effected everything. This suggests that the HD improvements is more complicated than we thought and favors pin point auto fire, despite the fact that all weapons got that 10% buff. Now would a blanket reduction balance weapons? Does the burst ar need the same 10% reduction like the other ar variants? Does the mass driver need the 10% reduction? The forge? Scram Pistol, Etc? While I don't have the answer to these, you'd have to see that the formula has radically changed to where the old numbers, the same flat ratios, are not the same anymore.
I didnt mean to imply that everything would get balanced by just taking off the 10% buff damage all weapons got right after Uprising. I just meant that as a starting point to compensate the new HD.
Now on the matter of scouts. It's been a while since they've been in a good place. And getting them in a good place again is something i wont pretend i have the solution for all by myself. First and foremost because i lack experience as a scout.
Still i'm trying to have a vision of what they should be. Correct me if something feels very odd.
- Lowest HP amount of all suits => That's the case already. Scouts are made of paper. HD \ aim assist emphasize that a lot Out of curiosity, how much HP do you usually have on your fits ?
- Fastest of all suits => Also the case. But not enough considering damage output \ HD \ aim assist. Even though i hated them, i loved the time where i was seeing scouts going at the speed of light. They were troubling basterds and it seemed fun to play with. That got nerfed due to HD making hitting them a nightmare. So that would be my first pick for a buff. restore them as speed tankers.
- Sneakiest of all suits => it is since 1.6 it appears.
Overall, scouts should be deadly but require a very specific and demanding play style. The slightest error getting you killed. Does that match what you would expect of scouts ?
This Char i only use on the forum.
To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype.
Et vive la France !
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Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire
561
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 13:50:00 -
[24] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:- Lowest HP amount of all suits => That's the case already. Scouts are made of paper. HD \ aim assist emphasize that a lot. Out of curiosity, how much HP do you usually have on your fits ? After 1.4, I switched from using biotics on my gal scout and now use a basic armor plate and a basic reactive plate to make my scout have enough ehp to be usable. So around 310 without considering the bonus from the Shield & Armor skills.
At the std level, a scouts ehp is in a good proportion to the other suits. We have less but its enough to get by and survive. However, at higher tiers the other suits can start fitting so many armor plates and shield extenders that their ehp dwarfs the scout's ehp which has very minimal growth. This becomes a problem as weapons are balanced around the medium suit. The weapons that are strong enough to take out a fairly well tanked medium in a reasonable time are able to obliterate the scout with little effort.
Quote:- Fastest of all suits => Also the case. But not enough considering damage output \ HD \ aim assist. Even though i hated them, i loved the time where i was seeing scouts going at the speed of light. They were troubling basterds and it seemed fun to play with. That got nerfed due to HD making hitting them a nightmare. So that would be my first pick for a buff. restore them as speed tankers. This would be much appreciated.
Quote:- Sneakiest of all suits => it is since 1.6 it appears. Tacnet stealth is fine. Still need visual stealth like cloak.
Quote:Overall, scouts should be deadly but require a very specific and demanding play style. The slightest error getting you killed. Does that match what you would expect of scouts ? For stats and risk vs reward proportions, yes. However, scouts still lack some utility on the battlefield that no other suit can replicate. We need E-War and to be the suit most proficient at it so that we can enter what I believe the true purpose of the scout, to be the anti-logi and debuff the enemy. |
IgniteableAura
Pro Hic Immortalis
309
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 14:00:00 -
[25] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote: - Sneakiest of all suits => it is since 1.6 it appears.
The most frustrating thing is that we are not as sneaky as it appears. Ill explain
1. Even with scout level 5 and profile dampening 5 we need to fit a profile dampener to evade prototype scanners. Does that sound balanced? A good balance would be if like cancels like. EX: scout level 3 evades adv scanners, scout level 5 evades proto scanners. There can be one scanner in each tier that would have a "higher precision rating" to help balance further.
2. Installations have a scan radius of 50m and perfect scan precision. We can't even go anywhere near an enemy controlled objective and expect to survive. Thats not sneaky. Either give scouts the ability to evade installations scan radius, or change installations precision to be more in line with the suits ( 30-46dB).
My adv scout, which I usually run has 260 shield and 80 armor. When I want to live for more than 1 second, I have ~equal shield and armor to the tone of ~430hp.
I would love a speed buff again.....especially since I adored the speed the old winmitar had...and the reason I choose it over gallente.
PHI Recruitment
or PHIsh Tank in game
Twitch
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Roy Ventus
Foxhound Corporation General Tso's Alliance
556
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 14:05:00 -
[26] - Quote
Maybe we can get some more Scout and Heavy changes in 1.8. Wouldn't surprise me if they wanted to leave Scouts mostly how they were JUST to see how to improve them to the new game play standards. I think more speed in strafing and stuff could work out. As for heavies? Idk, just throw more HP on them? |
Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis
2001
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 15:47:00 -
[27] - Quote
+1's all around. First thread I read this morning. Great stuff, gentlemen. o7 Thrilled to read CPM Laurent Cazaderon's take on the Scout situation; sounds like we're all on the same page.
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Oswald Rehnquist
458
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 18:15:00 -
[28] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:
I didnt mean to imply that everything would get balanced by just taking off the 10% buff damage all weapons got right after Uprising. I just meant that as a starting point to compensate the new HD.
Now on the matter of scouts. It's been a while since they've been in a good place. And getting them in a good place again is something i wont pretend i have the solution for all by myself. First and foremost because i lack experience as a scout.
Still i'm trying to have a vision of what they should be. Correct me if something feels very odd.
- Lowest HP amount of all suits => That's the case already. Scouts are made of paper. HD \ aim assist emphasize that a lot. Out of curiosity, how much HP do you usually have on your fits ?
- Fastest of all suits => Also the case. But not enough considering damage output \ HD \ aim assist. Even though i hated them, i loved the time where i was seeing scouts going at the speed of light. They were troubling basterds and it seemed fun to play with. That got nerfed due to HD making hitting them a nightmare. So that would be my first pick for a buff. restore them as true speed tankers. Just like i'd love seeing heavies slower but a lot more deadly like they were a long time ago.
- Sneakiest of all suits => it is since 1.6 it appears.
Overall, scouts should be deadly but require a very specific and demanding play style. The slightest error getting you killed. Does that match what you would expect of scouts ?
First off, your patience with me is amazing, so much appreciated, secondly yes, we would be heart broken if scouts became easy, the fun of the class is the high one gets with being on the near edge of danger, but the current iteration is pretty bad.
Even after speed fixes, scouts are still going to need an actual function as mentioned by krom.Thus I'm under the impression that scouts need their own "heavy weapon" utility, the non competitiveness (can't be copied) of heavy weapons are why heavies still see the light of day, scouts are really just looking for an actual purpose. Considering the assaults suits distaste for other creeping upon the slayer aspect, I do think scouts need to focus the spectrum on harassment, debuffing, assassination, and overall hostile team divider (the anti logi).
Below 28 dB
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ThePrinceOfNigeria
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
218
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Posted - 2013.11.06 18:20:00 -
[29] - Quote
Assault Rifle immediately invalidates this evidence. |
Shotty GoBang
Pro Hic Immortalis
2010
|
Posted - 2013.11.06 18:51:00 -
[30] - Quote
Oswald Rehnquist wrote: Even after speed fixes, scouts are still going to need an actual function ... that can't be copied.
* Opens weapon wheel, selects Cloak * |
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IAmDuncanIdaho II
R 0 N 1 N
124
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 11:17:00 -
[31] - Quote
Krom Ganesh wrote:Laurent Cazaderon wrote:- Lowest HP amount of all suits => That's the case already. Scouts are made of paper. HD \ aim assist emphasize that a lot. Out of curiosity, how much HP do you usually have on your fits ? After 1.4, I switched from using biotics on my gal scout and now use a basic armor plate and a basic reactive plate to make my scout have enough ehp to be usable. So around 310 without considering the bonus from the Shield & Armor skills. [/quote]
Minmatar advanced, around 270 + 84 sh/ar hp
[...]
Quote:- Fastest of all suits => Also the case. But not enough considering damage output \ HD \ aim assist. Even though i hated them, i loved the time where i was seeing scouts going at the speed of light. They were troubling basterds and it seemed fun to play with. That got nerfed due to HD making hitting them a nightmare. So that would be my first pick for a buff. restore them as speed tankers. This would be much appreciated.
[/quote][/quote]
Completely concur with Krom. I picked Minmatar for the speed (and knives). As an aside, if the fastest scout can't speed tank, no other suit can, and that would seem to make the most of the Biotics sub-tree irrelevant. Biotics should mean more.
Quote:- Sneakiest of all suits => it is since 1.6 it appears. Tacnet stealth is fine against other suits. Installations and objectives being omniscient within a certain radius is a major problem for us. Still need visual stealth like cloak. [/quote][/quote]
I realise something new every day - didn't even occur to me that installations are scanning *me*, even though I use it tactically myself for spotting reds. Why should installations have scanners at all? But if they do - yeah...make the precision in line with an assault suit or something.
Quote:Overall, scouts should be deadly but require a very specific and demanding play style. The slightest error getting you killed. Does that match what you would expect of scouts ?
For stats and risk vs reward proportions, yes. However, scouts still lack some utility on the battlefield that no other suit can do as well as us. We need E-War and to be the suit most proficient at it so that scouts can start fulfilling what I believe is their true purpose, to be the anti-logi and debuff the enemy.[/quote]
Yes it does, but the reward should also match the risk - no error means I get close enough or into the right position to have the major advantage in a one-on-one. |
IAmDuncanIdaho II
R 0 N 1 N
124
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Posted - 2013.11.07 11:27:00 -
[32] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:
[...]
- Lowest HP amount of all suits => That's the case already. Scouts are made of paper. HD \ aim assist emphasize that a lot. Out of curiosity, how much HP do you usually have on your fits ?
Minmatar advanced, around 270 + 84 sh/ar hp
Laurent Cazaderon wrote: - Fastest of all suits => Also the case. But not enough considering damage output \ HD \ aim assist. Even though i hated them, i loved the time where i was seeing scouts going at the speed of light. They were troubling basterds and it seemed fun to play with. That got nerfed due to HD making hitting them a nightmare. So that would be my first pick for a buff. restore them as true speed tankers. Just like i'd love seeing heavies slower but a lot more deadly like they were a long time ago.
Completely concur with Krom earlier. I picked Minmatar for the speed (and knives). As an aside, if the fastest scout can't speed tank, no other suit can, and that would seem to make the most of the Biotics sub-tree irrelevant. Biotics should mean more.
Laurent Cazaderon wrote: - Sneakiest of all suits => it is since 1.6 it appears.
Re: Krom and installations:I realise something new every day - didn't even occur to me that installations are scanning *me*, even though I use it tactically myself for spotting reds. Why should installations have scanners at all? But if they do - yeah...make the precision in line with an assault suit or something.
Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Overall, scouts should be deadly but require a very specific and demanding play style. The slightest error getting you killed. Does that match what you would expect of scouts ?
Yes it does, but the reward should also match the risk - no error means I get close enough or into the right position to have the major advantage in a one-on-one, or similar if it's objective based.
It's great to hear a CPM asking these questions :) There's 180 pages of Scout registry for you to read too! also a whole host of threads relating to various in-game testing that our dedicated brothers have undertaken ;-) |
Laurent Cazaderon
What The French
2019
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Posted - 2013.11.07 13:45:00 -
[33] - Quote
IgniteableAura wrote:Laurent Cazaderon wrote: - Sneakiest of all suits => it is since 1.6 it appears.
The most frustrating thing is that we are not as sneaky as it appears. Ill explain 1. Even with scout level 5 and profile dampening 5 we need to fit a profile dampener to evade prototype scanners. Does that sound balanced? A good balance would be if like cancels like. EX: scout level 3 evades adv scanners, scout level 5 evades proto scanners. There can be one scanner in each tier that would have a "higher precision rating" to help balance further. 2. Installations have a scan radius of 50m and perfect scan precision. We can't even go anywhere near an enemy controlled objective and expect to survive. Thats not sneaky. Either give scouts the ability to evade installations scan radius, or change installations precision to be more in line with the suits ( 30-46dB). My adv scout, which I usually run has 260 shield and 80 armor. When I want to live for more than 1 second, I have ~equal shield and armor to the tone of ~430hp. I would love a speed buff again.....especially since I adored the speed the old winmitar had...and the reason I choose it over gallente.
I wasnt aware of the thing you're bringing up in 2. And i dont get why it even exists. I can understand for Turrets as they need to be able to scan the area to fire at enemies. But perfect precision ? Hell that's weird. I'll remember that.
As for other installations\objectives. Why would they spot anything ?
Now regarding 1. I dont think even a proto scout should be able to natively dodge a proto scanner. Actually, i'd say they should depending on the circumstances. Just like weapons have absolute range and effective range, i'd love the scanners to have a similar fall off system. Meaning that the radius of the scan may be 100m and 60-¦. But the precision of the scan should decrease over distance and edges of the angle.
There you'd have balance. A proto scout without supplemental profile dampener would dodge the proto scanner if not caught up at say less than 30m and directly facing the scanner. And a total sneaky scout would add a dampener and only be spotted when scanned at 10M for example.
Overall, i tend to not like the possibility of totally evading something.
As for a speed buff, i'm not surprised you guys seemed to agree it would help. It's actually the main defense you have. But tbh, any kind of speed buff will remain useless as long as the aim assist is as strong as it is now. Usually playing KBM, i tried a controller last night and did some very ackward kills due to aim assist. Kills i never should have get. So combined to your low EHP no wonder you're getting crushed.
Speed buff also means less need for biotics so an extra bit of hp or stealth. As for cloaking, i just cant say anything
and thanks that thread is a goldmine to me. I had been in other scout discussions in the past though.
This Char i only use on the forum.
To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype.
Et vive la France !
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Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire
580
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 13:58:00 -
[34] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:As for a speed buff, i'm not surprised you guys seemed to agree it would help. It's actually the main defense you have. But tbh, any kind of speed buff will remain useless as long as the aim assist is as strong as it is now. Usually playing KBM, i tried a controller last night and did some very ackward kills due to aim assist. Kills i never should have get. So combined to your low EHP no wonder you're getting crushed.
Actually before 1.6, I had no trouble with AA. It takes a bit of experimenting but you can learn how to use it against them and avoid the majority of their fire. |
Niuvo
NECROM0NGERS
737
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Posted - 2013.11.07 18:40:00 -
[35] - Quote
Laurent, are you going to be our scout representative? |
IgniteableAura
Pro Hic Immortalis
320
|
Posted - 2013.11.07 21:52:00 -
[36] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote: I wasnt aware of the thing you're bringing up in 2. And i dont get why it even exists. I can understand for Turrets as they need to be able to scan the area to fire at enemies. But perfect precision ? Hell that's weird. I'll remember that.
As for other installations\objectives. Why would they spot anything ?
Now regarding 1. I dont think even a proto scout should be able to natively dodge a proto scanner. Actually, i'd say they should depending on the circumstances. Just like weapons have absolute range and effective range, i'd love the scanners to have a similar fall off system. Meaning that the radius of the scan may be 100m and 60-¦. But the precision of the scan should decrease over distance and edges of the angle.
There you'd have balance. A proto scout without supplemental profile dampener would dodge the proto scanner if not caught up at say less than 30m and directly facing the scanner. And a total sneaky scout would add a dampener and only be spotted when scanned at 10M for example. .
Im not 100% on their radius, but take a look next time you defend an objective, you will alway see red dots coming and going.
Why would a scout need to add a dampener to his suit to evade a scanner? I think for true balance you need to have a counter. Then a counter to that counter. A counter to that counter etc. We already have a proto scanner that is "focused" but its only proto level.
Example for better balance, scout level scanned up to: Std - Scout II Std "focused" - Scout III Adv scanner - Scout III Adv "focused" - Scout IV Proto - Scout IV Proto "focused" - Scout V
I would like it if scanners couldnt just sweep in a 360 and get a good scan rate. Right now the degrees of scan is useless. I worry about the complexity of the system you described, but I like it, however we cant even get grenades to have a % based explosion.
thanks for the discussion
PHI Recruitment
or PHIsh Tank in game
Twitch
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Quil Evrything
DUST University Ivy League
356
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Posted - 2013.11.07 22:38:00 -
[37] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:
- Fastest of all suits => Also the case. But not enough considering damage output \ HD \ aim assist.
Certainly, "not enough". However, I want to point out, that it is not really true at all, in any meaningful way, for gallente scouts.
Minmatar ASSAULT suits have speed 5.3
Gallente scout suits have speed 5.5
That is a speed differential that is basically MEANINGLESS. Particularly when there is no way for a scout to increase walking speed, AND you can only hold your knives charged while walking.
I would suggest gallente scout have walk speed of 5.8, and minmatar get 6.
(leave light suit, where it is )
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Dominus Fatali
Nox Aeterna Security
624
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Posted - 2013.11.07 22:51:00 -
[38] - Quote
I for one haven't seemed to be negatively impacted by the patch, as it helps with my preestablished play-style, and I love the new scan range (I have Gallente Scout V and Range Amp V). However, I can emphasize with my squishy brethren.
Long Live Freedom; Long Live the Federation.
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