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Oswald Rehnquist
430
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Posted - 2013.11.05 23:37:00 -
[1] - Quote
First congratulations on the improvement to hit detection, it does make shooting more fun for the larger community, whether that was hitbox increasing or shot registration, its definitely better
But I am a little skeptical that CCP play tested any scouts in this build, which makes me wonder how 1.7 is going to turn up because I have a feeling CCP is going off of theory than actual game play or worst case scenario doesn't care. Considering what pieces of information they have released for 1.7 and what they have not released, it seems more bones are being thrown to certain people over others.
First off, I am still holding positive ratios (about 1.4 if kdr was resetted) but its a hell of a challenge now, mostly its just finding the dumb assault players and over extensive planning for the seasoned ones, I prefer more defensive scouts builds anyways (stealth, cover, etc), but even those defenses are now being breached significantly, this is not even considering the even harder hit to the more offensive scouts builds, which I no longer see as viable, though that might just be my choice of weapons because I don't use mass drivers and I don't use any AR like weapon. I also don't brick tank my scout to act like a medium frame. So this just might be my needing to "adapt or die" but I'm not too keen an adapting myself to a medium frame, or I would just play it.
So scouts can't scout as effectively because moving becomes a sever liability with hit detection seemingly extending range distance and dps to even greater strides. On a non patch related note, proto scanners and focus scanners gained a boost in popularity too (I'm guessing focus for the fitting reduction and not to catch scouts).
What CCP did give us though was a radius buff, which works surprisingly well when you work in an abandoned but friendly objective and set up remotes, hide in a ditch, and patrol multiple installations, but this is painful to partake in because its high risk despite the fact it is literally thy most defensive set up we can do while still being relevant. It also does not have the same thrill as stalking individuals.
Mind you I am still adapting but this is what I have seen of the actual scout like scout builds that are viable are the kamikaze shotgunner, and the regional defense sniper or scp user. And I believe that regional defense build is the best scout build this patch at any rate, I liked mixing my offense and defense but I think defense is where its going to be for the month.
Anyways glad to hear any thoughts on this, later tonight I will make a page of recommendations which I think are needed. On the plus side I think this means that perhaps the AR514 crowd might be more accepting of more radical scout changes.
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Oswald Rehnquist
431
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Posted - 2013.11.05 23:42:00 -
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I've covered my thoughts on Assault Rifles and brick tanking scouts in the original post already, it is quite effective, though most players don't do 50 unassisted to begin with so I'm going to suspect some outside help whether with either vehicles or orbitals.
And if you happen to be that pro to go 50, then I'd say you are the exception then.
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Oswald Rehnquist
441
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Posted - 2013.11.06 06:08:00 -
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I didn't expect this thread to come back from the grave yard,
Now I really got to finish my scout write up, dam.
I'll start piecing stuff together, I'll also throw up a link in the scout boards too. This is more of a do or die moment, so I'll be comprehensive.
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Oswald Rehnquist
444
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Posted - 2013.11.06 06:44:00 -
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Shotty GoBang wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote: I'll also throw up a link in the scout boards too. Already done. Might want to take a look at "Hiding" in your title ... unless this is one of those intentional misspellings for added affect ... those always throw me off :-)
Just making sure your situation awareness was still sharp...
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Oswald Rehnquist
444
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Posted - 2013.11.06 07:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
Part 1: Introduction
Scouts need help, and versatility which can cater to several of our playstyles between scouts and offensive and defense build within a single scout are needed.
I also know that scouts have already been processed by CCP, but I can guarantee you that they will not be polished or complete in the slightest, in fact I bet itGÇÖs going to be rather stale.
Now for the Basic concept of scout roles in other games
Lurker, Harrier, Demolition, and Support.
I've also paired up the role as followed
Lurker-Gal, Demolition-Min, Support-Ama, Harrier-Cal
I also believe the scouts saving grace will be through something scout exclusive, which I have advocated through special scout active modules as I have outlined previously which I will link here as an example,
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1423666#post1423666
We can talk about the specifics on this later link, for now we need to cover role diversification and effectiveness, I'll be breaking it down into several parts based on each race/role, so you can just quote that piece, it would also allow me to expand upon this more and implement appropriate feedback as it comes, because I don't think I will be able to finish this whole thing tonight.
Lurker (Gal) Scout coming up next
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Oswald Rehnquist
448
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Posted - 2013.11.06 10:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:I already said that in different topics. But like, you already pointed out, the improved HD. That actually feels like it should be on a FPS game is probably the main and most important improvement in a long time technicaly speaking. It's only logical that many things need to be tweaked to fit it now. Like overall decrease of weapons damage, rising up scouts speed closer to chromosome. Or tone down aim assist I dont think there's a need for too many nor too deep changes tbh. But changes are needed. Let's just remember that they're needed in response to something good. And that's the best kind of changes 
Scouts weren't good before 1.6, , by not good I mean they were in no shape or form able to penetrate the highest organized battles of pc with objective defenders and pro tactics, so yes, major changes are still needed to make scouts pc ready. Otherwise scouts are just a unit designed entirely for the lols in pubs and FW where you have scrubs to take advantage of.
Vehicles, forge gun heavies, logis, and assaults are common sights in pc, scouts never were. I honestly don't think people really grasp the actual significance behind that.
No one could have played under these mechanics as a scout and said, oh yea working as intended, and none of the reasons for not catching this sound remotely good. The hardest aspect is coming to reality that this is not a multi role shooter, scouts aren't the only ones effected, go down the the next 10 pages, I'm sure they are all from today and you'll see a whole list of weapons and suits that that are no longer valid and competitive. If needed I can still post the links for them. I posted on the scout because 1.6 quite literally nullified an entire suit, you can switch guns a lot easier than you can switch suits, especially with the extra sp investment it takes to make a functional scout.
Also I don't think a simple 10% reduction across the board is going to work anymore either, honest balance is going to need actual intelligent thought,
If pin point auto fire has become supreme with everything receiving a 10% buff why aren't the others non auto fire weapons performing as well? Especially considering that the changes effected everything. This suggests is that the HD improvements is more complicated and favors pin point auto fire, despite the fact that all weapons got that 10% buff. Now would a blanket reduction balance weapons? Does the burst ar need the same 10% reduction like the other ar variants? Does the mass driver need the 10% reduction? The forge? Scram Pistol, Etc? While I don't have the answer to these, you'd have to see that the formula has radically changed to where the old numbers, the same flat ratios, are not the same anymore.
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Oswald Rehnquist
458
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Posted - 2013.11.06 18:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:
I didnt mean to imply that everything would get balanced by just taking off the 10% buff damage all weapons got right after Uprising. I just meant that as a starting point to compensate the new HD.
Now on the matter of scouts. It's been a while since they've been in a good place. And getting them in a good place again is something i wont pretend i have the solution for all by myself. First and foremost because i lack experience as a scout.
Still i'm trying to have a vision of what they should be. Correct me if something feels very odd.
- Lowest HP amount of all suits => That's the case already. Scouts are made of paper. HD \ aim assist emphasize that a lot. Out of curiosity, how much HP do you usually have on your fits ?
- Fastest of all suits => Also the case. But not enough considering damage output \ HD \ aim assist.
Even though i hated them, i loved the time where i was seeing scouts going at the speed of light. They were troubling basterds and it seemed fun to play with. That got nerfed due to HD making hitting them a nightmare. So that would be my first pick for a buff. restore them as true speed tankers. Just like i'd love seeing heavies slower but a lot more deadly like they were a long time ago.
- Sneakiest of all suits => it is since 1.6 it appears.
Overall, scouts should be deadly but require a very specific and demanding play style. The slightest error getting you killed. Does that match what you would expect of scouts ?
First off, your patience with me is amazing, so much appreciated, secondly yes, we would be heart broken if scouts became easy, the fun of the class is the high one gets with being on the near edge of danger, but the current iteration is pretty bad.
Even after speed fixes, scouts are still going to need an actual function as mentioned by krom.Thus I'm under the impression that scouts need their own "heavy weapon" utility, the non competitiveness (can't be copied) of heavy weapons are why heavies still see the light of day, scouts are really just looking for an actual purpose. Considering the assaults suits distaste for other creeping upon the slayer aspect, I do think scouts need to focus the spectrum on harassment, debuffing, assassination, and overall hostile team divider (the anti logi).
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