I laugh at everyone that thinks this will affect the FG. We true users of the FG fight on the ground. We don't kill with splash.

Added note: It's funny that people complain about Forge Gun users sitting on towers- I never see them in pubs. Oh, that's right. We shoot them.

Another note: The Forge Gun was designed neither for AV or infantry- it was described as an "anti-material" weapon. Do as you wish with that, but it's as silly to call the FG an AV weapon as it is to call the logistic suit being meant for medics.

2.1 meters on the proto forge is still enough to kill allmost anybody off a objective. A direct hit results in a instakill and where are you basically sitting 100% still? When you try to hack the objective. It doesnt matter if the blast radius is 3 or 2.1 meters you still get blown off the objective when you touch the hacking point. Instead off nerfing the forgegun CCP simply could had put a fence on the rooftops which give you way too good advantage. After all a heavy cant really jump over a fence. Just look at the map with the orbital artillery. Allmost all roofs have a fence to prevent this kind of scrubbery (though there are still spots to do it). And if its not the forgegun people will spec into plasma canons cause they actually have higher splash damage then forgeguns. If you can line up the shot and have 2 guys on a roof the can do the objective denial aswell.

I laugh at everyone that thinks this will affect the FG. We true users of the FG fight on the ground. We don't kill with splash.

Added note: It's funny that people complain about Forge Gun users sitting on towers- I never see them in pubs. Oh, that's right. We shoot them.

Another note: The Forge Gun was designed neither for AV or infantry- it was described as an "anti-material" weapon. Do as you wish with that, but it's as silly to call the FG an AV weapon as it is to call the logistic suit being meant for medics.

2.1 meters on the proto forge is still enough to kill allmost anybody off a objective. A direct hit results in a instakill and where are you basically sitting 100% still? When you try to hack the objective. It doesnt matter if the blast radius is 3 or 2.1 meters you still get blown off the objective when you touch the hacking point. Instead off nerfing the forgegun CCP simply could had put a fence on the rooftops which give you way too good advantage. After all a heavy cant really jump over a fence. Just look at the map with the orbital artillery. Allmost all roofs have a fence to prevent this kind of scrubbery (though there are still spots to do it). And if its not the forgegun people will spec into plasma canons cause they actually have higher splash damage then forgeguns. If you can line up the shot and have 2 guys on a roof the can do the objective denial aswell.

and i will point out that putting fences on the roof of orbital artillery absolutely ruined the map for everybody, we went from a match where a smart team could use verticality to gain an advantage and the opposing team could use dropships to counter to a match where everyone is forced to zerg into each other. putting fences on roofs just nerfs tactical play and screws over everybody, deal with the weapon at hand, don't use map design to tape over the problem.

and i will point out that putting fences on the roof of orbital artillery absolutely ruined the map for everybody, we went from a match where a smart team could use verticality to gain an advantage and the opposing team could use dropships to counter to a match where everyone is forced to zerg into each other. putting fences on roofs just nerfs tactical play and screws over everybody, deal with the weapon at hand, don't use map design to tape over the problem.

Were heading in the right direction CCP! The splash radius nerf is a good start! This will make it much harder to snipe with the forge gun, though still not as difficult as I believe it should be. So lets talk about splash damage on the forge gun to begin with and why many people, like myself, dislike the way its used. 75% of the time the forge gun is NOT used for AV, but actually used for area denial. More specifically..... Objective denial.

"he who owns the high ground with Forge guns owns the match"

The splash radius reduction is good for moving targets as it will be harder to hit them effectively at longer distances while moving. But who cares about that?? Sure its one less annoying part of the game, but whats FAR more annoying then that is having three guys move in on a cap after clearing out all of the immediate defenders, getting to the letter to hack. Only to ALL get two shotted by a forger that's camping on a roof 200M away....... This is ESPECIALLY annoying on the biomass compound, as if one forger gets on one tower, they can guard three letters in that position.

Now what is a Forge gun by principle? Its supposed to be a heavy AV weapon. Not an anti-infantry weapon. And the point im trying to make is that, why..... why do forge guns need splash damage to kill vehicles? They don't, because no AV user in their right mind would go for splash hits over direct hits. And the point im trying to make is that either FG splash damage OR radius gets further nerfed. They can still OHK anybody with direct, and if close enough most people should still take serious damage from the blast. But I truly believe it should be further nerfed in that way because while the changes in 1.6 ARE GOOD, I still don't believe they are perfect.

One less annoying thing at a time guys, and eventually all will be good.

Verticality only really works in a balanced way when there are multiple access points to the high ground. The new Gallente Research maps work well on this front, because there are several ways you can dislodge the squad with the height advantage. They aren't easy, but you have options.

If it weren't for the skyscrapers, Line Harvest would be good and well balanced. The depot roofs, table top and pipes can all be overtaken by infantry.

I actually agree with you about Orbital Artillery, because those roofs already have multiple access points. The near-complete fence blockage really isn't necessary, and just crappy design.

When the only way to get the high ground is dropship, it becomes a game of "FIRST!" and not legitimate tactics.

PC will show if its worked or not

Its a nerf towards killing infantry but not vehicles

I laugh at everyone that thinks this will affect the FG. We true users of the FG fight on the ground. We don't kill with splash.

Added note: It's funny that people complain about Forge Gun users sitting on towers- I never see them in pubs. Oh, that's right. We shoot them.

Another note: The Forge Gun was designed neither for AV or infantry- it was described as an "anti-material" weapon. Do as you wish with that, but it's as silly to call the FG an AV weapon as it is to call the logistic suit being meant for medics.

2.1 meters on the proto forge is still enough to kill allmost anybody off a objective. A direct hit results in a instakill and where are you basically sitting 100% still? When you try to hack the objective. It doesnt matter if the blast radius is 3 or 2.1 meters you still get blown off the objective when you touch the hacking point. Instead off nerfing the forgegun CCP simply could had put a fence on the rooftops which give you way too good advantage. After all a heavy cant really jump over a fence. Just look at the map with the orbital artillery. Allmost all roofs have a fence to prevent this kind of scrubbery (though there are still spots to do it). And if its not the forgegun people will spec into plasma canons cause they actually have higher splash damage then forgeguns. If you can line up the shot and have 2 guys on a roof the can do the objective denial aswell.

Do you think I give one $h!t about weather or not you OR I see them in PUBS????? If I had to give ONE reason why my corp lost most of the individual battles during the STB/AE war it would be because they were able to get forge gunners on towers/high ground that 90% of the time is only accessible via dropship.

I don't give two $h!ts about what goes on in pub matches. You can avoid forge gunners in pub matches. In corp battles YOU HAVE TO attack the objectives. And that's the difference. The FG is an AV weapon. Simple as that. It shouldn't be easier to use then a sniper rifle at the same optimal ranges as most sniper rifles

I don't give two $h!ts about what goes on in pub matches. You can avoid forge gunners in pub matches. In corp battles YOU HAVE TO attack the objectives. And that's the difference. The FG is an AV weapon. Simple as that. It shouldn't be easier to use then a sniper rifle at the same optimal ranges as most sniper rifles

and i will point out that putting fences on the roof of orbital artillery absolutely ruined the map for everybody, we went from a match where a smart team could use verticality to gain an advantage and the opposing team could use dropships to counter to a match where everyone is forced to zerg into each other. putting fences on roofs just nerfs tactical play and screws over everybody, deal with the weapon at hand, don't use map design to tape over the problem.

Except that it isn't. It's "Anti-material" not "Anti-vehicle."

I understand the problems with FG raining death from the towers, but I think the problem is more fixable by increasing access to the towers by infantry, not by changing the nature of the weapon. Or, as many have suggested before, have a significant damage falloff at large distances (i.e. the distances from the tops of towers to the objectives). The weapon wouldn't make sense if there was no splash. It'd be like a MD or plasma cannon or grenades with no splash.

I don't know why we need to keep making this point. You'd think people would understand after the 100th time (but I guess they don't so we have to keep reminding them that it isn't an AV weapon).

Saw a MD obliterate an LAV the other day, that is solely an AI weapon, so we should nerf its effects on vehicles! NERF IT!

Except that it isn't. It's "Anti-material" not "Anti-vehicle."

I understand the problems with FG raining death from the towers, but I think the problem is more fixable by increasing access to the towers by infantry, not by changing the nature of the weapon. Or, as many have suggested before, have a significant damage falloff at large distances (i.e. the distances from the tops of towers to the objectives). The weapon wouldn't make sense if there was no splash. It'd be like a MD or plasma cannon or grenades with no splash.

Were heading in the right direction CCP! The splash radius nerf is a good start! This will make it much harder to snipe with the forge gun, though still not as difficult as I believe it should be. So lets talk about splash damage on the forge gun to begin with and why many people, like myself, dislike the way its used. 75% of the time the forge gun is NOT used for AV, but actually used for area denial. More specifically..... Objective denial.

"he who owns the high ground with Forge guns owns the match"

The splash radius reduction is good for moving targets as it will be harder to hit them effectively at longer distances while moving. But who cares about that?? Sure its one less annoying part of the game, but whats FAR more annoying then that is having three guys move in on a cap after clearing out all of the immediate defenders, getting to the letter to hack. Only to ALL get two shotted by a forger that's camping on a roof 200M away....... This is ESPECIALLY annoying on the biomass compound, as if one forger gets on one tower, they can guard three letters in that position.

Now what is a Forge gun by principle? Its supposed to be a heavy AV weapon. Not an anti-infantry weapon. And the point im trying to make is that, why..... why do forge guns need splash damage to kill vehicles? They don't, because no AV user in their right mind would go for splash hits over direct hits. And the point im trying to make is that either FG splash damage OR radius gets further nerfed. They can still OHK anybody with direct, and if close enough most people should still take serious damage from the blast. But I truly believe it should be further nerfed in that way because while the changes in 1.6 ARE GOOD, I still don't believe they are perfect.

One less annoying thing at a time guys, and eventually all will be good.

Yeah, sorry. I don't give two ***** about what happens in PC. It's laggy, boring, elitist, and demands as much attention as a part-time job.

Balance changes need to be made based on the whole of the game, not any one part. And if Forge Guns present the biggest problem in PC, there may be fixes that don't require changing its performance in every other part of the game.

The statement of "It's an AV weapon" flies in the face of the gun's stats and damage profile and actual in-game usage since beta. The last year-and-a-half says no, it is not just an AV weapon.

As a FGer, I could live with a damage drop. It makes sense that it would have one, considering what it's launching.

On a derailing note, don't bother trying to reason with him. People seem to lose common sense when they go into PCs, devolving into something comparable with CoD players. On this same note, we've been telling people time after time it's not an AV specific weapon. It just doesn't sink for some reason.

Back to the Forge Gun topic, however, I wonder if the people that scream profanities at FGers realize the FG shakes the camera at charge holds?

This isn't a problem with the Forge Gun, it's a problem with the letter objectives. I've long campaigned for objectives to be placed in such a way as to prevent Sniper role players from hitting someone actively hacking. The underground and in-building focus of the newer maps are a good example of this philosophy, but the older maps are probably unsalvagable due to being phased out anyway...

Erm the md is both an av and ai weapon its supposed to be that way.

Personally I feel Objectives should be placed in small bunkers that allow for people like heavies to camp inside of them, instead of camping hundreds of meters away with a Sniper cannon.

Then what do you play the game for? If not for PC, it only has FW which is the exact same as normal pub matches right now.......

The only reason it might not be considered "just an AV weapon" is because of the gross splash damage/ radius it has.

Exactly. I don't own forge guns or tanks, so I could care less how effective they are on vehicles. I care when a forge gun camping on a tower pegs my 245k isk suit trying to hack an objective. How do I counter that? Cant fly a dropship up there cuz he'll two shot it. Cant snipe because im not specialized in it. So what do I do? Just keep getting pegged by it. If the Forge OHKs me, then OK. That's fine, he disserves the kill simply because that's pretty damn difficult. But Two shotting me because he has crazy splash radius/damage??? Come on now

Then what do you play the game for? If not for PC, it only has FW which is the exact same as normal pub matches right now.......

You say it needs to be based on the whole of the game. PC IS 50% of this game right now. And the changes I propose wouldn't effect it in 75% of the other 50%........ The only reason it might not be considered "just an AV weapon" is because of the gross splash damage/ radius it has. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't only be good for AV. Reducing the splash damage still makes it a good area denial weapon, it just makes it harder and less convenient to kill people off objectives, which is what there currently being used for most.

Saw a MD obliterate an LAV the other day, that is solely an AI weapon, so we should nerf its effects on vehicles! NERF IT!

I've seen the same thing but with an HMG, lets also nerf its damage against vehicles.

Honestly? These days, I play it as an interesting pick-up-and-play lobby shooter with an decent skill system and good squad tactics if I'm on the right team.

Pubs and FW have been pretty fun from that angle once I stopped caring about corp wallets and turf warfare.

I can understand that most people deep in PC don't care about that side of the game any more. But it still exists, and there's a big chunk of people involved in it. And it'll matter much more once the FW changes are in place.



I disagree. Swarms are just an AV weapon because they can only do damage to vehicles. AV Grenades, likewise, can only do damage to vehicles. They are literally that: just AV weapons.

The Forge Gun is, and always has been, more than just an AV weapon. But I agree with you that it shouldn't be able to dominate the entire map at once.

I've always believed it had the proper built-in weakness, and that is: Forge Gunners are very, very likely to die in close quarters.

Inaccessible rooftops negate that weakness, which is why I think fencing off dropship-only roofs is the best way to solve the problem. Verticality is good, but it must have multiple avenues of access in order to be balanced.

So far, CCP has only gotten that right with the Gallente Research sockets. I have higher hopes for the future maps, but they need to retrofit the old ones to totally solve the issue.

There is no "might be". The forge gun description itself does not identify it as an av weapon. Also, in regards to your "area denial". What's better - 15 wounded but able enemy targets near an objective? Or 15 dead ones? Take a guess.

Erm the md is both an av and ai weapon its supposed to be that way.

PC will show if its worked or not

Its a nerf towards killing infantry but not vehicles

The direct damage definitely needs to be nerfed given the new tank mechanics advertised... I'm glad they're reducing splash, but that has nothing to do with the AV factor.

Another note: The Forge Gun was designed neither for AV or infantry- it was described as an "anti-material" weapon. Do as you wish with that, but it's as silly to call the FG an AV weapon as it is to call the logistic suit being meant for medics.

"he who owns the high ground with Forge guns owns the match"

2.1 meters on the proto forge is still enough to kill allmost anybody off a objective. A direct hit results in a instakill and where are you basically sitting 100% still? When you try to hack the objective. It doesnt matter if the blast radius is 3 or 2.1 meters you still get blown off the objective when you touch the hacking point. Instead off nerfing the forgegun CCP simply could had put a fence on the rooftops which give you way too good advantage. After all a heavy cant really jump over a fence. Just look at the map with the orbital artillery. Allmost all roofs have a fence to prevent this kind of scrubbery (though there are still spots to do it). And if its not the forgegun people will spec into plasma canons cause they actually have higher splash damage then forgeguns. If you can line up the shot and have 2 guys on a roof the can do the objective denial aswell.

The direct damage definitely needs to be nerfed given the new tank mechanics advertised... I'm glad they're reducing splash, but that has nothing to do with the AV factor.

You must realize that, as a general principle in all warfare, "he who holds the high ground wins the battle." So basically you just qualify a principle of warfare that everyone from Sun-Tzu to Douglas Macarthur has understood, and then say that's unfair.

If you can't land a shot within a metre of your point of aim, then you shouldn't be doing damage with a FG.

This has been mentioned in practically every Forge Gun thread since the beginning of time. It's an anti-materiel weapon. With an "e." Big difference. This basically classifies it as anti-vehicle and anti-installation, as opposed to anti-infantry.

This is already a shoddy argument when we're discussing balance. The heavy suit is supposed to stand toe-to-toe with a tank (yeah right). The scout suit is supposed to blend with its surroundings (fat chance). The forge gun would hardly be the first item that eschews its description in favor of balance.


You must realize that, as a general principle in all warfare, "he who holds the high ground wins the battle." So basically you just qualify a principle of warfare that everyone from Sun-Tzu to Douglas Macarthur has understood, and then say that's unfair. What does a field commander do in real life when his enemy has the high ground? Nothing to do but rush it. Hence all the famous battles with "hill" in the name. If you lose the high ground, generally speaking, you should be losing the match. Because that's how battle works.

I do think forge snipers on tall towers is a bit much. (I was getting hit by the splash from some forge sniper the other day when I was guarding an objective and it was just annoying. I couldn't locate the guy and he couldn't kill me and it was...just aggravating.)

My perspective is that there are some places that need to be "slippery." Extremely tall towers could have their tops slanted and the surface made "slippery" so that you slide off them. Generally speaking, these locations wouldn't be considered useful tactical positions because of their precariousness, but because the "kick" of weapons in this game doesn't have a physical effect, there's no risk of you losing your footing on an 0.5m band of metal suspended in the air (for example).

it would take over 4 shots to kill your average player with splash damage.

not very damaging.

the small splash damage with just a nice bonus for getting an extremely close shot on your target.