Did you see all those passive skills there adding in for tanks though? Gonna be awesome

...

The maps and gamemodes don't even support mixed arms combat and nothing has been addressed on that front.

No it wont. Mechanics mechanics mechanics. You cant do **** with passive reps and 3 lows and 2 highs

As a Ground Forger, and a Tank Hunter with this stat, i think that Swarm need to go, same for the Av nades ( the tracking at last)
Leave only to Heavy the fight of Veic-user.

ARcodBOYS can go to hell. And with this you will have a rock-paper-scissor.

Rock: tank slain INF
Paper: Heavy slain tank
Scissor: Infrantry slain Forger.

And also add barrier on the tower,so scrub can hide in there.
Thanks

Did you see all those passive skills there adding in for tanks though? Gonna be awesome

I thought they said vehicles as just a hull would be weak and it would need good fittings to be powerful. Are the modules better than then current ones?

why the **** are our slots being reduced in number? what could possibly be good about that? my tank will always be half weaker now because of this.

the slot reduction is so they can re-introduce advanced and proto tanks by doing what they do with suits, add more slots. this part is crap, but understandable.

nearly all the other changes...i cant believe im saying this....but i agree with noc.

They said they were rebalancing vehicles to make gameplay more fun. Vehicle drivers first and then AV specialists after complained vehicle battles were too short. There wasn't enough time for variety in engagements, dynamics to shift, skill to present itself. Then nerf after nerf arrived and the vehicles kept losing their hp and it got worse. Madruger tanks had a brief heyday with some strong armor specific modules arrived but were quickly nerfed again with a further vulnerability to explosive damage.

For over half a year, we were told vehicles were going to get rebuilt from the ground up and just wait and be amazed. It's safe to say that was wasted time. Not only is the proposed refresh horribly unbalanced, the skill tree shallow yet expensive, and devoid of innovation - it also doesn't fix the original problems.

Vehicles are losing a lot of health and flexibility. Ammo is being added on top of heat for more worries but at no benefit such as ammo selection. Shields, traditionally the anti infantry option, is now completely losing the one unique holdover from EVE - passive shield regen. Fights are getting less interesting and faster. The only successful module is the new shield injector (not really a booster with only one pulse): it is a single use situationally powerful tool that can be used once per fight. The rest are long timers on long cooldowns. While they are laudable for rewarding proactive use, they are cancerous because they are effectively forced retreats. The gameplay is to sit in timeout as your reward for winning. Win enough and you have to retreat all the way to the MCC (the only place to find a live supply depot). Is the recall mechanic going away? Because otherwise the ammo and cooldowns are pointless.

Everyone would have been happy with double the health and half or even less the damage vs infantry. Instead vehicles are now disposable equipment. Hopefully the ISK price will at least match this new status. I will say, personally, while eve-lite has gone disastrously for infantry combat it would have been excitingly unique for mechanized warfare. Only in the community created masterpiece of Living Legends have I seen vehicle combat so interesting and deep as the potential DUST presented with heat and energy management. But like MWO, it is getting dumber and dumber with each iteration (need I say coolant flush?) instead of playing up it's strengths.

I notoriously have an axe to grind over the misdevelopment of this game, especially with the shady marketing BS, but for old times sake I will offer feedback on vehicle changes. Big suits with wheels isn't interesting. Long cooldowns on necessary to be competitive modules isn't fun. Deep SP sinks with low variety isn't hardcore. The maps and gamemodes don't even support mixed arms combat and nothing has been addressed on that front.

Additional comments:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1357566#post1357566

Go play world of tanks if you're so mad about it...

Go play world of tanks if you're so mad about it...

This seems like some very weak bait.

They said they were rebalancing vehicles to make gameplay more fun. Vehicle drivers first and then AV specialists after complained vehicle battles were too short. There wasn't enough time for variety in engagements, dynamics to shift, skill to present itself. Then nerf after nerf arrived and the vehicles kept losing their hp and it got worse. Madruger tanks had a brief heyday with some strong armor specific modules arrived but were quickly nerfed again with a further vulnerability to explosive damage.

For over half a year, we were told vehicles were going to get rebuilt from the ground up and just wait and be amazed. It's safe to say that was wasted time. Not only is the proposed refresh horribly unbalanced, the skill tree shallow yet expensive, and devoid of innovation - it also doesn't fix the original problems.

Vehicles are losing a lot of health and flexibility. Ammo is being added on top of heat for more worries but at no benefit such as ammo selection. Shields, traditionally the anti infantry option, is now completely losing the one unique holdover from EVE - passive shield regen. Fights are getting less interesting and faster. The only successful module is the new shield injector (not really a booster with only one pulse): it is a single use situationally powerful tool that can be used once per fight. The rest are long timers on long cooldowns. While they are laudable for rewarding proactive use, they are cancerous because they are effectively forced retreats. The gameplay is to sit in timeout as your reward for winning. Win enough and you have to retreat all the way to the MCC (the only place to find a live supply depot). Is the recall mechanic going away? Because otherwise the ammo and cooldowns are pointless.

Everyone would have been happy with double the health and half or even less the damage vs infantry. Instead vehicles are now disposable equipment. Hopefully the ISK price will at least match this new status. I will say, personally, while eve-lite has gone disastrously for infantry combat it would have been excitingly unique for mechanized warfare. Only in the community created masterpiece of Living Legends have I seen vehicle combat so interesting and deep as the potential DUST presented with heat and energy management. But like MWO, it is getting dumber and dumber with each iteration (need I say coolant flush?) instead of playing up it's strengths.

I notoriously have an axe to grind over the misdevelopment of this game, especially with the shady marketing BS, but for old times sake I will offer feedback on vehicle changes. Big suits with wheels isn't interesting. Long cooldowns on necessary to be competitive modules isn't fun. Deep SP sinks with low variety isn't hardcore. The maps and gamemodes don't even support mixed arms combat and nothing has been addressed on that front.

Additional comments:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1357566#post1357566

Oh boy...

I am astonished at some of the changes - ie. the elimination of passive shield regen - That's just mental.

The one thing I do get is the reduction of slots. But with that decrease, there needs to be potent modules to go there. It shouldn't be as simple as "Stack resistance, and own". You should have to decide what you will setup for. this is surprisingly good for variety IF the modules are twice as good.

Between the low HP, reliance on active modules and the elimination of the only survivable LAV's means I'm about ready to just give up on Vehicles and CCP. They will do what they want regardless of common sense.

To really balance vehicles, they need to eliminate the astronomical steps between AV and Vehicular levels. Light arms in this game accelerate at ~10% / level. Yet AV goes up 25-30%, and is exasperated by the percentage increase of damage modifiers, due to the large initial numbers. The Vehicles move in increments of 200-300% more attacks required to destroy - all while being essentially powerless to respond to invisible AV.

So alterations to the existing framework is to ignore the framework as being the problem.

passive shield regen remains, it's on a 4 second delay for the gunnlogi and the passive amount has increased.

Assholes with assault rifles will not be able to stop the shield regen.

Assholes firing tank turrets, swarms, plasma cannon and Forge guns WILL stop the regen for the time delay.

Gunnlogi EHP will go up-ish or you can pick hardeners for the funzies. This will make marauders and enforcers have a bigger niche when re-released.

What I want to know is if the inherent resists will remain or if they will be removed. If they're removed, then that throws my guesstimates about AV out the window and I have to start from scratch.

No it wont. Mechanics mechanics mechanics. You cant do **** with passive reps and 3 lows and 2 highs

Has the changes been released yet? I don't think so... Sure, theory craft, but hey, wait for the release....

the slot reduction is so they can re-introduce advanced and proto tanks by doing what they do with suits, add more slots. this part is crap, but understandable.

nearly all the other changes...i cant believe im saying this....but i agree with noc.

They said they were rebalancing vehicles to make gameplay more fun. Vehicle drivers first and then AV specialists after complained vehicle battles were too short. There wasn't enough time for variety in engagements, dynamics to shift, skill to present itself. Then nerf after nerf arrived and the vehicles kept losing their hp and it got worse. Madruger tanks had a brief heyday with some strong armor specific modules arrived but were quickly nerfed again with a further vulnerability to explosive damage.

For over half a year, we were told vehicles were going to get rebuilt from the ground up and just wait and be amazed. It's safe to say that was wasted time. Not only is the proposed refresh horribly unbalanced, the skill tree shallow yet expensive, and devoid of innovation - it also doesn't fix the original problems.

Vehicles are losing a lot of health and flexibility. Ammo is being added on top of heat for more worries but at no benefit such as ammo selection. Shields, traditionally the anti infantry option, is now completely losing the one unique holdover from EVE - passive shield regen. Fights are getting less interesting and faster. The only successful module is the new shield injector (not really a booster with only one pulse): it is a single use situationally powerful tool that can be used once per fight. The rest are long timers on long cooldowns. While they are laudable for rewarding proactive use, they are cancerous because they are effectively forced retreats. The gameplay is to sit in timeout as your reward for winning. Win enough and you have to retreat all the way to the MCC (the only place to find a live supply depot). Is the recall mechanic going away? Because otherwise the ammo and cooldowns are pointless.

Everyone would have been happy with double the health and half or even less the damage vs infantry. Instead vehicles are now disposable equipment. Hopefully the ISK price will at least match this new status. I will say, personally, while eve-lite has gone disastrously for infantry combat it would have been excitingly unique for mechanized warfare. Only in the community created masterpiece of Living Legends have I seen vehicle combat so interesting and deep as the potential DUST presented with heat and energy management. But like MWO, it is getting dumber and dumber with each iteration (need I say coolant flush?) instead of playing up it's strengths.

I notoriously have an axe to grind over the misdevelopment of this game, especially with the shady marketing BS, but for old times sake I will offer feedback on vehicle changes. Big suits with wheels isn't interesting. Long cooldowns on necessary to be competitive modules isn't fun. Deep SP sinks with low variety isn't hardcore. The maps and gamemodes don't even support mixed arms combat and nothing has been addressed on that front.

Additional comments:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1357566#post1357566

All that's left, I sometimes think, if for CCP to lose such a large portion of their remaining audience that they have to revisit and quickly how they proceed with this game.... Sad thing is, I positing my opinion and disappointment I know no CCP dev is not likely to be willing to talk with me about the game itself.

They wont hear my suggestions about vehicles, FW, content, game modes, etc because in QQing I am going into the little black book they keep.

Quick point:

A Gunnlogi with 1 Heavy Extender reaches ~3600 SHP.
With 1 hardener this becomes a pseudo value of ~9000 SHP

A shield booster restores ~1200 SHP in 1.5secs
With 1 hardener this becomes a pseudo value of ~3000 SHP in 1.5secs

This is on par with an armour tank I believe, just allow me to get quick calcs on that to.
The point is a sheild tank is considerably more effective under the effects of a hardner, more so than an armour tank!

The problem is that CCP relies on community feedback. The majority of the community gives senseless feedback that attributes to their own personal achievements. Just look at what's happening. Nerf Logis because support gives out WPs and some assault guy who goes 25 and 1 gets pissed because the Logi is number one on the battle report. Nerf the AR topics. Calling it easy mode, yet assault classes run ARs in any FPS MP.

Or how about folks who only thought of their own advancements and cried about having WPs for reds killed from a scan.

I say all that to say this: the community continues to suggest ideas that CCP considers without the thought of what benefits the game as a whole. You got folks trying to either morph Dust into any other FPS game or have CCP change things because they refuse to better their strategy.

So when you trying to please everyone, you find the end goal lost in trying to keep the majority happy instead of sticking to the vision that you had.

Seriously, the majority of the community are idiots. Like I stated previously, the majority of the community only concerns themselves on what affects their gameplay. Like c'mon scouts want buffs?! For what??? You're a scout, you're the weakest because the role of a scout is to infiltrate silently. You are a problem if played right. Those who want buffs are those last action hero players who want to run around the frontlines, bunny hopping killing mercs.

So when we appease these folks, the problem isn't visible until later and you gotta start from scratch. The community causes this problem because they can't approach it objectively. They think of immediate goals instead of long term.

we're kind of hoping all the vehicle qqers will just go ahead and quit...

This is the underlying theme of just about every post made in favor of these changes, some hide it behind big old posts with reasonable sounding fanboy statements, others don't bother, but the end goal is the same, AR jocks hate tanks and will support anything that makes them irrelevant on the battlefield.

Same answer as the other threads

Ii swear to god I'm the only need here....y'all need to spend 14 hours on excel comparing tank fits, turrets, modules, etc. I factored in EVERYTHING and tanks will be like this:
90% of tankers will find them even weaker but the top 10%- the Honey Badgers, will be nearly unkillable.

Also, glass cannon gunlogis will be able to take on front line madrugars and win in a head on battle if the hardeners are off.

Missiles have an obscene DPS and will kill everything ever. Also take into account that the front line tanks (madrugars), may be almost invincible while their hardeners are on, they'll run out of ammo extremely quickly and since ammo slots are VL, they can't use them.

Gunlogis can also omni-tank very efficiently, now, and sorry to say it grunts, but 2 shield hardeners on a gunlogi will drop explosive damage to 5%, so good luck dealing with that ;) (40%+35%+30[20?]%)

Yes. Tanks have low HP, but the hardeners will make them tanky.

Stop talking bad about Wolfman until u do math.

Also remember that a madrugar with hardeners on will be able to tank 7 hits from a rail that just will around 2800 damage and this is just a standard tank. Add one slot on each side per level and proto tanks will be well worth it. (Maddy with 1 heavy rep, 2 heavy plates, and 2 hardeners, anyone? Yeah, then maybe a couple CPU upgrades or ammo cache in the low and a blaster turret- the ultimate infantry killer.
BECAUSE hardeners are key, a tank HAS to be a tanky grunt killer, or a squishy tank killer. It is not possible do both BC of CPU limit

Blasters will be nerfed, honestly, but their PG and CPU cost is extremely low compared to missiles and rails that itll allow gunlogis to run them efficiently and maddies will be able to stack lots of armor mods BC of it.

I spent literally 14 hours figuring this out BC I was initially pissed, but now I realize Wolfman is a genius- damage mods being VH is good BC CPU upgrades are VH and dmods take more CPU to fit than everything except heavy boosters which will be a game changer.

Ii swear to god I'm the only need here....y'all need to spend 14 hours on excel comparing tank fits, turrets, modules, etc. I factored in EVERYTHING and tanks will be like this:
90% of tankers will find them even weaker but the top 10%- the Honey Badgers, will be nearly unkillable.

Also, glass cannon gunlogis will be able to take on front line madrugars and win in a head on battle if the hardeners are off.

Missiles have an obscene DPS and will kill everything ever. Also take into account that the front line tanks (madrugars), may be almost invincible while their hardeners are on, they'll run out of ammo extremely quickly and since ammo slots are VL, they can't use them.

Gunlogis can also omni-tank very efficiently, now, and sorry to say it grunts, but 2 shield hardeners on a gunlogi will drop explosive damage to 5%, so good luck dealing with that ;) (40%+35%+30[20?]%)

Yes. Tanks have low HP, but the hardeners will make them tanky.

Stop talking bad about Wolfman until u do math.

Also remember that a madrugar with hardeners on will be able to tank 7 hits from a rail that just will around 2800 damage and this is just a standard tank. Add one slot on each side per level and proto tanks will be well worth it. (Maddy with 1 heavy rep, 2 heavy plates, and 2 hardeners, anyone? Yeah, then maybe a couple CPU upgrades or ammo cache in the low and a blaster turret- the ultimate infantry killer.
BECAUSE hardeners are key, a tank HAS to be a tanky grunt killer, or a squishy tank killer. It is not possible do both BC of CPU limit

Blasters will be nerfed, honestly, but their PG and CPU cost is extremely low compared to missiles and rails that itll allow gunlogis to run them efficiently and maddies will be able to stack lots of armor mods BC of it.

I spent literally 14 hours figuring this out BC I was initially pissed, but now I realize Wolfman is a genius- damage mods being VH is good BC CPU upgrades are VH and dmods take more CPU to fit than everything except heavy boosters which will be a game changer.

its a std tank. They are paving the way for adv and proto tanks. U cant expect std to be awesome.

They said they were rebalancing vehicles to make gameplay more fun. Vehicle drivers first and then AV specialists after complained vehicle battles were too short. There wasn't enough time for variety in engagements, dynamics to shift, skill to present itself. Then nerf after nerf arrived and the vehicles kept losing their hp and it got worse. Madruger tanks had a brief heyday with some strong armor specific modules arrived but were quickly nerfed again with a further vulnerability to explosive damage.

For over half a year, we were told vehicles were going to get rebuilt from the ground up and just wait and be amazed. It's safe to say that was wasted time. Not only is the proposed refresh horribly unbalanced, the skill tree shallow yet expensive, and devoid of innovation - it also doesn't fix the original problems.

Vehicles are losing a lot of health and flexibility. Ammo is being added on top of heat for more worries but at no benefit such as ammo selection. Shields, traditionally the anti infantry option, is now completely losing the one unique holdover from EVE - passive shield regen. Fights are getting less interesting and faster. The only successful module is the new shield injector (not really a booster with only one pulse): it is a single use situationally powerful tool that can be used once per fight. The rest are long timers on long cooldowns. While they are laudable for rewarding proactive use, they are cancerous because they are effectively forced retreats. The gameplay is to sit in timeout as your reward for winning. Win enough and you have to retreat all the way to the MCC (the only place to find a live supply depot). Is the recall mechanic going away? Because otherwise the ammo and cooldowns are pointless.

Everyone would have been happy with double the health and half or even less the damage vs infantry. Instead vehicles are now disposable equipment. Hopefully the ISK price will at least match this new status. I will say, personally, while eve-lite has gone disastrously for infantry combat it would have been excitingly unique for mechanized warfare. Only in the community created masterpiece of Living Legends have I seen vehicle combat so interesting and deep as the potential DUST presented with heat and energy management. But like MWO, it is getting dumber and dumber with each iteration (need I say coolant flush?) instead of playing up it's strengths.

I notoriously have an axe to grind over the misdevelopment of this game, especially with the shady marketing BS, but for old times sake I will offer feedback on vehicle changes. Big suits with wheels isn't interesting. Long cooldowns on necessary to be competitive modules isn't fun. Deep SP sinks with low variety isn't hardcore. The maps and gamemodes don't even support mixed arms combat and nothing has been addressed on that front.

Additional comments:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1357566#post1357566

In the worst case, we're not getting these before 1.7, and they've been reiterating that they're showing these to us this early to get as much feedback on them as possible.

One way or another, this demonstrates a movement in the direction you, I, and really all of us have been pushing for since we all got into the Closed Beta as far as presenting changes to the community early so we can offer feedback and suggestions.

I still think you could benefit from being a bit less adversarial, but this thread is emblematic of what we should all be doing as far as providing our feedback on proposals like this.

I am just asking, but how do you know? I believe they are also changing the values of the modules, so how can you say this?

We don't know if they are changing the pricing of the items either, so in the end there is not really enough information to get a full idea of what these changes entail. I would suggest waiting until you actually have a reason to flip out before... you know.... flipping out.

These are simply standard tanks. Look at the way they're being set up - just like drop suits. I seriously doubt Wolfman would go out of his way to make tiered modules and turrets the same as infantry and leave the hulls with a 3/2 layout.

Im suprised they didnt copy and paste from EVE with capacitors and all the mods because it would have been half done

There's an old devblog where they talk about vehicle capacitor, so we have at least some reason to believe they want to go that way eventually. My guess is they simply can't spare the personnel to implement such complex changes on vehicles right now.