DUST Search - Why the vehicle changes are wrong

Noc Tempre wrote:

They said they were rebalancing vehicles to make gameplay more fun. Vehicle drivers first and then AV specialists after complained vehicle battles were too short. There wasn't enough time for variety in engagements, dynamics to shift, skill to present itself. Then nerf after nerf arrived and the vehicles kept losing their hp and it got worse. Madruger tanks had a brief heyday with some strong armor specific modules arrived but were quickly nerfed again with a further vulnerability to explosive damage.

For over half a year, we were told vehicles were going to get rebuilt from the ground up and just wait and be amazed. It's safe to say that was wasted time. Not only is the proposed refresh horribly unbalanced, the skill tree shallow yet expensive, and devoid of innovation - it also doesn't fix the original problems.

Vehicles are losing a lot of health and flexibility. Ammo is being added on top of heat for more worries but at no benefit such as ammo selection. Shields, traditionally the anti infantry option, is now completely losing the one unique holdover from EVE - passive shield regen. Fights are getting less interesting and faster. The only successful module is the new shield injector (not really a booster with only one pulse): it is a single use situationally powerful tool that can be used once per fight. The rest are long timers on long cooldowns. While they are laudable for rewarding proactive use, they are cancerous because they are effectively forced retreats. The gameplay is to sit in timeout as your reward for winning. Win enough and you have to retreat all the way to the MCC (the only place to find a live supply depot). Is the recall mechanic going away? Because otherwise the ammo and cooldowns are pointless.

Everyone would have been happy with double the health and half or even less the damage vs infantry. Instead vehicles are now disposable equipment. Hopefully the ISK price will at least match this new status. I will say, personally, while eve-lite has gone disastrously for infantry combat it would have been excitingly unique for mechanized warfare. Only in the community created masterpiece of Living Legends have I seen vehicle combat so interesting and deep as the potential DUST presented with heat and energy management. But like MWO, it is getting dumber and dumber with each iteration (need I say coolant flush?) instead of playing up it's strengths.

I notoriously have an axe to grind over the misdevelopment of this game, especially with the shady marketing BS, but for old times sake I will offer feedback on vehicle changes. Big suits with wheels isn't interesting. Long cooldowns on necessary to be competitive modules isn't fun. Deep SP sinks with low variety isn't hardcore. The maps and gamemodes don't even support mixed arms combat and nothing has been addressed on that front.

Additional comments:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1357566#post1357566

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Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2561	Posted - 2013.10.02 19:33:00 - [1] - Quote They said they were rebalancing vehicles to make gameplay more fun. Vehicle drivers first and then AV specialists after complained vehicle battles were too short. There wasn't enough time for variety in engagements, dynamics to shift, skill to present itself. Then nerf after nerf arrived and the vehicles kept losing their hp and it got worse. Madruger tanks had a brief heyday with some strong armor specific modules arrived but were quickly nerfed again with a further vulnerability to explosive damage. For over half a year, we were told vehicles were going to get rebuilt from the ground up and just wait and be amazed. It's safe to say that was wasted time. Not only is the proposed refresh horribly unbalanced, the skill tree shallow yet expensive, and devoid of innovation - it also doesn't fix the original problems. Vehicles are losing a lot of health and flexibility. Ammo is being added on top of heat for more worries but at no benefit such as ammo selection. Shields, traditionally the anti infantry option, is now completely losing the one unique holdover from EVE - passive shield regen. Fights are getting less interesting and faster. The only successful module is the new shield injector (not really a booster with only one pulse): it is a single use situationally powerful tool that can be used once per fight. The rest are long timers on long cooldowns. While they are laudable for rewarding proactive use, they are cancerous because they are effectively forced retreats. The gameplay is to sit in timeout as your reward for winning. Win enough and you have to retreat all the way to the MCC (the only place to find a live supply depot). Is the recall mechanic going away? Because otherwise the ammo and cooldowns are pointless. Everyone would have been happy with double the health and half or even less the damage vs infantry. Instead vehicles are now disposable equipment. Hopefully the ISK price will at least match this new status. I will say, personally, while eve-lite has gone disastrously for infantry combat it would have been excitingly unique for a console shooter. Only in the community created masterpiece of Living Legends have I seen vehicle combat so interesting and deep as the potential DUST presented with heat and energy management. But like MWO, it is getting dumber and dumber with each iteration (need I say coolant flush?) instead of playing up it's strengths. I notoriously have an axe to grind over the misdevelopment of this game, especially with the shady marketing BS, but for old times sake I will offer feedback on vehicle changes. Big suits with wheels isn't interesting. Long cooldowns on necessary to be competitive modules isn't fun. Deep SP sinks with low variety isn't hardcore. The maps and gamemodes don't even support mixed arms combat and nothing has been addressed on that front.
N1ck Comeau Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 1486	Posted - 2013.10.02 19:53:00 - [2] - Quote Did you see all those passive skills there adding in for tanks though? Gonna be awesome
The legend345 TeamPlayers EoN. 1079	Posted - 2013.10.02 19:58:00 - [3] - Quote N1ck Comeau wrote: Did you see all those passive skills there adding in for tanks though? Gonna be awesome No it wont. Mechanics mechanics mechanics. You cant do **** with passive reps and 3 lows and 2 highs
Telcontar Dunedain Imperfects Negative-Feedback 549	Posted - 2013.10.02 19:59:00 - [4] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: ... The maps and gamemodes don't even support mixed arms combat and nothing has been addressed on that front. QFT What a dumb waste of time and community energy when the maps don't/won't support the vehicles in the first place. As the guy in the other thread points out where are capacitors? I'm not even an eve player and it seems unimpressive that Dust514 hasn't bothered to put them in yet. This really looks like what got CCP into trouble with Dust514 in the first place - shallow least effort iteration or "kicking the can down the road" No system gets well designed and put in a state that delights players. Anything interesting (like capacitors) is on the 5 year plan.
Magnus Amadeuss DUST University Ivy League 57	Posted - 2013.10.02 20:02:00 - [5] - Quote The legend345 wrote: N1ck Comeau wrote: Did you see all those passive skills there adding in for tanks though? Gonna be awesome No it wont. Mechanics mechanics mechanics. You cant do **** with passive reps and 3 lows and 2 highs I am just asking, but how do you know? I believe they are also changing the values of the modules, so how can you say this? We don't know if they are changing the pricing of the items either, so in the end there is not really enough information to get a full idea of what these changes entail. I would suggest waiting until you actually have a reason to flip out before... you know.... flipping out.
Dexter307 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 395	Posted - 2013.10.02 20:23:00 - [6] - Quote I thought they said vehicles as just a hull would be weak and it would need good fittings to be powerful. Are the modules better than then current ones?
Jastad D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 156	Posted - 2013.10.02 20:24:00 - [7] - Quote Jastad wrote: As a Ground Forger, and a Tank Hunter with this stat, i think that Swarm need to go, same for the Av nades ( the tracking at last) Leave only to Heavy the fight of Veic-user. ARcodBOYS can go to hell. And with this you will have a rock-paper-scissor. Rock: tank slain INF Paper: Heavy slain tank Scissor: Infrantry slain Forger. And also add barrier on the tower,so scrub can hide in there. Thanks Same answer as the other threads
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2565	Posted - 2013.10.02 20:31:00 - [8] - Quote N1ck Comeau wrote: Did you see all those passive skills there adding in for tanks though? Gonna be awesome Please explain how 10% more ammo capacity or 3% less fitting space is "awesome".
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2565	Posted - 2013.10.02 20:33:00 - [9] - Quote Dexter307 wrote: I thought they said vehicles as just a hull would be weak and it would need good fittings to be powerful. Are the modules better than then current ones? No they are worse for the most part in every conceivable way (fitting, effect, variety, SP required).
Void Echo Morsus Mihi Aperuitque Imperium 1596	Posted - 2013.10.02 20:40:00 - [10] - Quote why the **** are our slots being reduced in number? what could possibly be good about that? my tank will always be half weaker now because of this.

Soldner VonKuechle SAM-MIK 173	Posted - 2013.10.02 20:43:00 - [11] - Quote Void Echo wrote: why the **** are our slots being reduced in number? what could possibly be good about that? my tank will always be half weaker now because of this. the slot reduction is so they can re-introduce advanced and proto tanks by doing what they do with suits, add more slots. this part is crap, but understandable. nearly all the other changes...i cant believe im saying this....but i agree with noc.
MINA Longstrike One Shot Killahz 3	Posted - 2013.10.02 20:54:00 - [12] - Quote This character was started as a vehicle pilot solely. I quickly learned how badly the odds were stacked against me with how unbelievably powerful AV is in this game, in addition to how cheap it is compared to my vehicle fits. So abandoning the tank I decided to go for something a bit more mobile and able to support the people I play with - an assault drop ship and shortly after I get into one, I find out 'hey guys, we're removing the ADS and adding a huge amount of SP sinks to vehicles... and in order to make them function at half the strength they may have once had for a few seconds, you need to invest to level five in all of these skills. You'd also better hope that ******** blueberries don't hop in your vehicle and pointlessly waste ammunition in your other turrets because shooting at the enemy MCC is SO FAHNNY". Well played ccp, maybe I should just save time and delete this character completely.
Void Echo Morsus Mihi Aperuitque Imperium 1596	Posted - 2013.10.02 21:05:00 - [13] - Quote Soldner VonKuechle wrote: Void Echo wrote: why the ** are our slots being reduced in number? what could possibly be good about that? my tank will always be half weaker now because of this. the slot reduction is so they can re-introduce advanced and proto tanks by doing what they do with suits, add more slots. this part is crap, but understandable. nearly all the other changes...i cant believe im saying this....but i agree with noc. so now we are all forced to have weak ** and never be able to advance?
Maximus Stryker Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 618	Posted - 2013.10.02 21:13:00 - [14] - Quote Noc, I miss your well thought out and coherent posts. They posted this information 2 months in advance with what I assume is an expectation to change what they have with our (your) feedback. For the sake of Dust, I hope you have it in you to one last time give it to them hard and straight a way to make vehicles (and thus Dust) better. Sincerely, Max
MUDFLAPS McGILLICUTTY OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 26	Posted - 2013.10.02 21:15:00 - [15] - Quote +1 I hear "ground up renovation of vehicles" I think "everything broken for months on end" It appears as though very little thought or testing has been put into even the fundamentals of these changes. Look at the "new and improved" large blaster setups. The PG/CPU requirements and price increase as you go from STD->PROTO, but the fundamental stats (damage, rate of fire, etc) remain exactly the same. Also, how little sense does it make that our ammunition is limited. Infantry carries nanohives for fractionary amounts of CPU & PG. In a 2000+ Powergrid tank, we can't manage to install similar technology? It's the same fundamental lack of common sense that allows a 50,000 ISK swarm launcher with 50 PG/CPU to heavily outperform 1/4million ISK proto small missile turrets (which take amplitudes higher PG/CPU to operate) -- For a "spreadsheet in space", the rows don't match the columns. Seriously hoping that them posting this stuff early is the first step toward them actually responding to feedback intelligently - but experience leads me to doubt that. Limiting the ammunition without first fixing the hit detection is a LEAP in the wrong direction... (I'm talking about shields popping like they were hit but players taking zero damage) Fix the fundamentals and quickly, or your playerbase will be moving along to games that actually have working physics. Just my 2cents. -MFM
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2588	Posted - 2013.10.05 18:32:00 - [16] - Quote To Logibro, If shields aren't going to be delayed from recharging based on infantry fire, what's the point of the mechanic at all? It won't make a lick of difference in a vehicle vs vehicle fight. This proposed fix takes vehicle shield delay from massively nerfing to absolutely pointless. Again, what is the point of vehicles after these changes? It seems like the only goal is "balance" not "purpose".
Cenex Langly D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 239	Posted - 2013.10.05 19:00:00 - [17] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: They said they were rebalancing vehicles to make gameplay more fun. Vehicle drivers first and then AV specialists after complained vehicle battles were too short. There wasn't enough time for variety in engagements, dynamics to shift, skill to present itself. Then nerf after nerf arrived and the vehicles kept losing their hp and it got worse. Madruger tanks had a brief heyday with some strong armor specific modules arrived but were quickly nerfed again with a further vulnerability to explosive damage. For over half a year, we were told vehicles were going to get rebuilt from the ground up and just wait and be amazed. It's safe to say that was wasted time. Not only is the proposed refresh horribly unbalanced, the skill tree shallow yet expensive, and devoid of innovation - it also doesn't fix the original problems. Vehicles are losing a lot of health and flexibility. Ammo is being added on top of heat for more worries but at no benefit such as ammo selection. Shields, traditionally the anti infantry option, is now completely losing the one unique holdover from EVE - passive shield regen. Fights are getting less interesting and faster. The only successful module is the new shield injector (not really a booster with only one pulse): it is a single use situationally powerful tool that can be used once per fight. The rest are long timers on long cooldowns. While they are laudable for rewarding proactive use, they are cancerous because they are effectively forced retreats. The gameplay is to sit in timeout as your reward for winning. Win enough and you have to retreat all the way to the MCC (the only place to find a live supply depot). Is the recall mechanic going away? Because otherwise the ammo and cooldowns are pointless. Everyone would have been happy with double the health and half or even less the damage vs infantry. Instead vehicles are now disposable equipment. Hopefully the ISK price will at least match this new status. I will say, personally, while eve-lite has gone disastrously for infantry combat it would have been excitingly unique for mechanized warfare. Only in the community created masterpiece of Living Legends have I seen vehicle combat so interesting and deep as the potential DUST presented with heat and energy management. But like MWO, it is getting dumber and dumber with each iteration (need I say coolant flush?) instead of playing up it's strengths. I notoriously have an axe to grind over the misdevelopment of this game, especially with the shady marketing BS, but for old times sake I will offer feedback on vehicle changes. Big suits with wheels isn't interesting. Long cooldowns on necessary to be competitive modules isn't fun. Deep SP sinks with low variety isn't hardcore. The maps and gamemodes don't even support mixed arms combat and nothing has been addressed on that front. Additional comments: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1357566#post1357566 Go play world of tanks if you're so mad about it...
Alldin Kan TeamPlayers EoN. 648	Posted - 2013.10.05 19:10:00 - [18] - Quote Cenex Langly wrote: Go play world of tanks if you're so mad about it... Oh boy...
Kane Fyea DUST University Ivy League 1713	Posted - 2013.10.05 19:27:00 - [19] - Quote Cenex Langly wrote: Go play world of tanks if you're so mad about it... This seems like some very weak bait.
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 625	Posted - 2013.10.05 19:30:00 - [20] - Quote Kane Fyea wrote: Cenex Langly wrote: Go play world of tanks if you're so mad about it... This seems like some very weak bait. world of tanks is not bad though

Heimdallr69 TeamPlayers EoN. 946	Posted - 2013.10.05 19:34:00 - [21] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: They said they were rebalancing vehicles to make gameplay more fun. Vehicle drivers first and then AV specialists after complained vehicle battles were too short. There wasn't enough time for variety in engagements, dynamics to shift, skill to present itself. Then nerf after nerf arrived and the vehicles kept losing their hp and it got worse. Madruger tanks had a brief heyday with some strong armor specific modules arrived but were quickly nerfed again with a further vulnerability to explosive damage. For over half a year, we were told vehicles were going to get rebuilt from the ground up and just wait and be amazed. It's safe to say that was wasted time. Not only is the proposed refresh horribly unbalanced, the skill tree shallow yet expensive, and devoid of innovation - it also doesn't fix the original problems. Vehicles are losing a lot of health and flexibility. Ammo is being added on top of heat for more worries but at no benefit such as ammo selection. Shields, traditionally the anti infantry option, is now completely losing the one unique holdover from EVE - passive shield regen. Fights are getting less interesting and faster. The only successful module is the new shield injector (not really a booster with only one pulse): it is a single use situationally powerful tool that can be used once per fight. The rest are long timers on long cooldowns. While they are laudable for rewarding proactive use, they are cancerous because they are effectively forced retreats. The gameplay is to sit in timeout as your reward for winning. Win enough and you have to retreat all the way to the MCC (the only place to find a live supply depot). Is the recall mechanic going away? Because otherwise the ammo and cooldowns are pointless. Everyone would have been happy with double the health and half or even less the damage vs infantry. Instead vehicles are now disposable equipment. Hopefully the ISK price will at least match this new status. I will say, personally, while eve-lite has gone disastrously for infantry combat it would have been excitingly unique for mechanized warfare. Only in the community created masterpiece of Living Legends have I seen vehicle combat so interesting and deep as the potential DUST presented with heat and energy management. But like MWO, it is getting dumber and dumber with each iteration (need I say coolant flush?) instead of playing up it's strengths. I notoriously have an axe to grind over the misdevelopment of this game, especially with the shady marketing BS, but for old times sake I will offer feedback on vehicle changes. Big suits with wheels isn't interesting. Long cooldowns on necessary to be competitive modules isn't fun. Deep SP sinks with low variety isn't hardcore. The maps and gamemodes don't even support mixed arms combat and nothing has been addressed on that front. Additional comments: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1357566#post1357566 This is why I gave up on tanks, and there is more people who think they should put like 500k sp into nades and be able to blow up your tank in one go its those people that ruin tanks there is more of them than tankers so ccp will listen to them
Heimdallr69 TeamPlayers EoN. 946	Posted - 2013.10.05 19:40:00 - [22] - Quote Alldin Kan wrote: Cenex Langly wrote: Go play world of tanks if you're so mad about it... Oh boy... My thoughts exactly lmao
J Lav OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 236	Posted - 2013.10.05 21:09:00 - [23] - Quote I am astonished at some of the changes - ie. the elimination of passive shield regen - That's just mental. The one thing I do get is the reduction of slots. But with that decrease, there needs to be potent modules to go there. It shouldn't be as simple as "Stack resistance, and own". You should have to decide what you will setup for. this is surprisingly good for variety IF the modules are twice as good. Between the low HP, reliance on active modules and the elimination of the only survivable LAV's means I'm about ready to just give up on Vehicles and CCP. They will do what they want regardless of common sense. To really balance vehicles, they need to eliminate the astronomical steps between AV and Vehicular levels. Light arms in this game accelerate at ~10% / level. Yet AV goes up 25-30%, and is exasperated by the percentage increase of damage modifiers, due to the large initial numbers. The Vehicles move in increments of 200-300% more attacks required to destroy - all while being essentially powerless to respond to invisible AV. So alterations to the existing framework is to ignore the framework as being the problem.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Top Men. 1365	Posted - 2013.10.05 21:20:00 - [24] - Quote J Lav wrote: I am astonished at some of the changes - ie. the elimination of passive shield regen - That's just mental. The one thing I do get is the reduction of slots. But with that decrease, there needs to be potent modules to go there. It shouldn't be as simple as "Stack resistance, and own". You should have to decide what you will setup for. this is surprisingly good for variety IF the modules are twice as good. Between the low HP, reliance on active modules and the elimination of the only survivable LAV's means I'm about ready to just give up on Vehicles and CCP. They will do what they want regardless of common sense. To really balance vehicles, they need to eliminate the astronomical steps between AV and Vehicular levels. Light arms in this game accelerate at ~10% / level. Yet AV goes up 25-30%, and is exasperated by the percentage increase of damage modifiers, due to the large initial numbers. The Vehicles move in increments of 200-300% more attacks required to destroy - all while being essentially powerless to respond to invisible AV. So alterations to the existing framework is to ignore the framework as being the problem. passive shield regen remains, it's on a 4 second delay for the gunnlogi and the passive amount has increased. Assholes with assault rifles will not be able to stop the shield regen. Assholes firing tank turrets, swarms, plasma cannon and Forge guns WILL stop the regen for the time delay. Gunnlogi EHP will go up-ish or you can pick hardeners for the funzies. This will make marauders and enforcers have a bigger niche when re-released. What I want to know is if the inherent resists will remain or if they will be removed. If they're removed, then that throws my guesstimates about AV out the window and I have to start from scratch.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 2594	Posted - 2013.10.05 22:19:00 - [25] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: J Lav wrote: I am astonished at some of the changes - ie. the elimination of passive shield regen - That's just mental. The one thing I do get is the reduction of slots. But with that decrease, there needs to be potent modules to go there. It shouldn't be as simple as "Stack resistance, and own". You should have to decide what you will setup for. this is surprisingly good for variety IF the modules are twice as good. Between the low HP, reliance on active modules and the elimination of the only survivable LAV's means I'm about ready to just give up on Vehicles and CCP. They will do what they want regardless of common sense. To really balance vehicles, they need to eliminate the astronomical steps between AV and Vehicular levels. Light arms in this game accelerate at ~10% / level. Yet AV goes up 25-30%, and is exasperated by the percentage increase of damage modifiers, due to the large initial numbers. The Vehicles move in increments of 200-300% more attacks required to destroy - all while being essentially powerless to respond to invisible AV. So alterations to the existing framework is to ignore the framework as being the problem. passive shield regen remains, it's on a 4 second delay for the gunnlogi and the passive amount has increased. Assholes with assault rifles will not be able to stop the shield regen. Assholes firing tank turrets, swarms, plasma cannon and Forge guns WILL stop the regen for the time delay. Gunnlogi EHP will go up-ish or you can pick hardeners for the funzies. This will make marauders and enforcers have a bigger niche when re-released. What I want to know is if the inherent resists will remain or if they will be removed. If they're removed, then that throws my guesstimates about AV out the window and I have to start from scratch. IF this is true... what's the point of the mechanic in the first place?
Eyemakerwet R 0 N 1 N 72	Posted - 2013.10.05 22:33:00 - [26] - Quote The legend345 wrote: N1ck Comeau wrote: Did you see all those passive skills there adding in for tanks though? Gonna be awesome No it wont. Mechanics mechanics mechanics. You cant do **** with passive reps and 3 lows and 2 highs its a std tank. They are paving the way for adv and proto tanks. U cant expect std to be awesome.
Rogue Saint Science For Death The Shadow Eclipse 299	Posted - 2013.10.05 22:34:00 - [27] - Quote Has the changes been released yet? I don't think so... Sure, theory craft, but hey, wait for the release....
Eyemakerwet R 0 N 1 N 72	Posted - 2013.10.05 22:38:00 - [28] - Quote Rogue Saint wrote: Has the changes been released yet? I don't think so... Sure, theory craft, but hey, wait for the release.... they did release them. Unless what I saw is just a rough draft.
Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 732	Posted - 2013.10.05 22:45:00 - [29] - Quote I feel said for yall tankers even though I hate a good tank with silent passionate hatred I'd quit if I was force to run in STD gear for some re-balancing that should of been done months ago.
Bojo The Mighty Zanzibar Concept 2125	Posted - 2013.10.05 22:49:00 - [30] - Quote What Eyemakerwet said, they plan on rereleasing Marauder class HAVs. Please don't cry about these changes when they are good for dropships! You HAVs get all the attention but now it is our turn.



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