lol @ assault dropships getting 1 hit killed by forges

It takes 3 hits from a proto breach with stacked damage mods to kill mine and by that time im usually out of there and recalling it.

The assault dropship does need a buff though

I'm stepping in to say Flaylocks are perfect as are. I've killed plenty with them recently. Breach variant, actually. (It's bloody hilarious.)

Flux do as they say on the tin.

Lasers are pretty damn awesome; they can cut people down with ease. (Been on both sides of this the past few days.)

Scrambler Pistols are legendary for headshot kills. Forgot about that super multiplier for it, guy?

The Scrambler rifles are fine, especially the Assault one. I actually watch the kill feed. It pops up more than you think.

All variants of the Heavy dropsuit, including Commando, cannot be judged as overpowered or underpowered as of yet, due to the sheer fact only the Amarrians have heavy suits.

Added: I will not talk about vehicles. I've said quite a bit about them as time has passed.

Added added note: Every suit tier has minor differences between the one above it. People that think prototype suits are supposed to be all powerful are... hilarious. Dropsuit builds are built around modules, not suits. Suits hold the slots, but modules hold the power. Never forget.

Not really worth it actually. Especially when you consider that, sooner or later, all of our weapons, vehicles, equipment and so on will be produced and priced by Eve-players.

So you want everything other than AR's and Assault suits, and AV gear to be cheaper?

You cannot balance with ISK.

/thread.

In short. from STD - proto

• Weapons that are UP or extremely niche should have their ISK prices reduced to between 1/2 and 1/3 of what they are now.
• Vehicles and vehicles mods, and turrets should have their prices reduced to 1/3 their cost too.
• drop suits that are UP should have their prices reduced to between 1/2 and 1/3 of their current price

weapons that are UP are as follows:

• HMG
• flaylocks
• Shotguns
• Lazers
• flux grenades (who even uses these beyond std?)
• nova knives
• Scrambler pistols
• Ascr
• Scr

this list may be amended

Firstly, you can't balance with isk. Not effectively - it'll only affect poor players, whilst the rich laugh.

Secondly, your list is bad.

HMG may have bad dispersion, but it's certainly not underpowered enough to apparently merit half the price.

Flaylocks are meh. A direct damage increase is the only reasonable thought for this.

Shotguns merely need more range.

Lasers are not UP. Have you even tried them recently?

Flux grenades have their purpose - they can affect both infantry and vehicles as well as wrecking equipment, which is very important against uplink spam or explosive traps.

Nova knives aren't underpowered. Those problems are linked to the scout suit. If you get in close enough with nova knives, you can kill anything. A heavy can be two shotted by nova knives.

Scrambler pistols are not underpowered. They have significantly more DPS than the AR, a much QQed about weapon, without even including the massive headshot modifier. If you headshot with a scrambler pistol you can one or two shot nearly any suit.

The assault scrambler rifle is not underpowered. It's practically the same as the AR!

The scrambler rifle is not underpowered. I main this weapon and it's perfectly adequate.


And, once more, you can't balance with isk. Not effectively.

EDIT: Why is this in General Discussion?

why not?

• QQer's are always opposed to getting things buffed
• QQer's are opposed to getting anything nerfed

so, if you cannot balanced through buffs and nerfs. what else is their?

and dn't say anything about skill. If one weapon yeilds fewer results and requieres 3x the skill as a comparable weapon then it is UP.

The fact that the only things I DONT see on this list are:

Plasma Cannon (which truly is)
Forge Gun (well balanced despite the QQ whines)
SMG

and....

-drum roll-

The Assault Rifle.

Nerf AR thread in disguise.

Buffs and nerfs are how you find balance. Not through cost. You can never equalize the output to the skill required if you use cost.

ISK is irrelevant. There will always be those with more than enough to spam anything. If there were a tank that cost 10 million a pop but had the stats of the old Surya, I would run it in every match. Consider that if you made AR's more expensive, newer players would assume they were better and skill into them, thereby compounding your problem.

Leave ISK out of balance discussions.

why not?

• QQer's are always opposed to getting things buffed
• QQer's are opposed to getting anything nerfed

so, if you cannot balanced through buffs and nerfs. what else is their?

and dn't say anything about skill. If one weapon yeilds fewer results and requieres 3x the skill as a comparable weapon then it is UP.

And yet another nerf or buff thread......

Or, instead of balancing on price, actually balance it?

The rich midis we know as top corps can, and will still pop people with OP guns, regardless of price.

They have infinite ISK.

If you 1/3rd tank costs people pull out enforcers seeing as the cost 3x the standard. You don't want people pulling out enforcers. And my tanks would be 180-200k isk a pop. You don't want that.

Stop bumping your own thread, you have been told a few times why this is a terrible idea and decided to ignore it. Stop trying to keep it at the top.

damn hero is fighting hard for this thread #SteadyMobbin

Or, instead of balancing on price, actually balance it?

The rich midis we know as top corps can, and will still pop people with OP guns, regardless of price.

They have infinite ISK.

yeah, because its one of the best ideas. no ones weapon becomes less or more effective. but, people whos play styles have been gimped or are high risk-low reward will now be cheaper encouraging them to run those gimped or extremely niche weapons....


trust me if this is implemented you will see more:

proto shotguns
proto HMGs
proto heavies
proto scouts
proto logis using proto equipment (not just tanking iwht ARs)
more dropships
more scramblers
plasma cannons


and yet, you will still see plenty of

AR users
assault suits
forguns
swarm launchers


the items I mentioned are disadvantaged or gimped. so, they will still die fast to their counter. however, when they die the player won't just say "man this gun sucks imma justuse the FOTM cuz i can't play my play style" instead they'll say "let me try doing things this way..." or "ill try again next match".

[b]
You can call these people no skilled scrubs... but how could they possible practice or get good if their weapon costs them a fortune to use, and they are facing almost impossible odds with a gimped weapon?[b]
the number of dropshipers has decreased because not many people can afford to learn using them, and when they do get decent they get shotdown. something must be done, this is th emost neutral way to fix the problem.

oh, good. so vets get an even bigger advantage. i have 2 million isk tanks and i run one every match. today i called in 13 tanks for my friends in a pub. idc what things cost. i have money. new players dont. if u truly want to gimp new players more, go ahead, but it wont stop me from spamming effective weapons or vehicles.

to be honest I don't think this is a good idea at all. there are way too many flaws in it and your not thinking of the kdr in this either. Like the flaylock era, making things cheaper won't changed the hatred of that weapon that should have never been put in the game.

Also decreasing prices doesn't really change any problems, not its true that money in this game is hard to come by with just breaking even. So prices should be lightly reduced but for gameplay and important battles like PC is means nothing to reduce prices. In your theory reduced prices will reduced QQ but we don't complain about prices (exception of tankers) we QQ because of gameplay.

exactly. i spent 15 million isk in a pub an hour ago. why? because i wanted everyone in my squad to have a tank. money means nothing to the rich players in the rich corps.

Balancing by ISK will never work...

You cannot balance with ISK.

/thread.

Worst idea ever, who decides what is OP,

what is UP

. Not the OP thats for sure, SP UP? hah SCR UP double hah.

bull sh!t

I don't usually respond this way, but command and control "economics" is kind of the explanation behind why things get unbalanced in the first place. Let the players set there own prices and keep minimums for reasonable nets. Keep identity disclosed and allow more diverse streams of raw resources or currency (either salvage, loot, minerals, mission gear, isk, etc)

Let people trade damn it.
And then let people steal

lol @ assault dropships getting 1 hit killed by forges

It takes 3 hits from a proto breach with stacked damage mods to kill mine and by that time im usually out of there and recalling it.

The assault dropship does need a buff though

Since buffing everything is ALOT of work for the developers.
AND
An nerfs would hurt players feelings on their favorite weapons.

I propose an economic solution!

In short. from STD - proto

• Weapons that are UP or extremely niche should have their ISK prices reduced to between 1/2 and 1/3 of what they are now.
• Vehicles and vehicles mods, and turrets should have their prices reduced to 1/3 their cost too.
• drop suits that are UP should have their prices reduced to between 1/2 and 1/3 of their current price

weapons that are UP are as follows:

• HMG
• flaylocks
• Shotguns
• Lazers
• flux grenades (who even uses these beyond std?)
• nova knives
• Scrambler pistols
• Ascr [reduce by 25%]
• Scr [reduce by 25%)
• plasma cannons

this list may be amended

drop suits that are UP:

• Commando suit (reduce to 1/4th the price)
• heavy suit (not milita. reduce by 1/2)
• Scout suits (yes reduce to 1/3 or 1/4. they die too fast to be so costly)
• reduce the price of equipment.

Vehicles:

• LAVs [reduce to 1/2 their current price]
• Dropships [reduce to the current price of LAVs with max cost at 100K-150K at assault level. they blow up in one shot from forges. 70k ISK or less worth of material blowing up 770k worht of dropship and turret mods makes no economic sense. why should anyone every dropship? with a 150k ISK cap, at least you can make back the loss in one match and continue to dropship]
• Tanks [reduce the price to 1/3 the current prices. Common guys, they are tough, but they can't run from the super AV.]

vehicle mods and turrents:
all should have 1/2 the current price or prices equivalent of those of proto weapons at the infantry level.



The above lists will be amended.

conclusion
These are not buffs, or nerfs. These are economic approaches to a growing problem. Most of the pain of having your dropship or tank instant killed by AV is that you lost 1.3 million ISK worth of material in less than a few seconds from 70K or less worth of AV equipment. most of the pain of lossing your proto heavy suit to a milita AR is that 0isk worht of weaponry destroyed 150k worth of material. [probably not from 1 milita AR firing at you, but heavy suits can't particular run away now can they].

Since the advantages of proto gear (other than assault suits and proto ARs) right now are being mitigated due to recent developments, the most neutral way to fix this problem is to make things cost less. Dying 5 times in a milita suit doesnt get me as mad as having a blue berry crash my 1million isk dropship into the dust which is worth 0isk.

comments? sign if you agree.

You cannot say the exact amount the reduction should be just by throwing a random amount, hence unless you get raw data from CCP to make an model that adjusts for several constraints like taxation, mercenary income, quantity demanded, elasticity and demonstrate with a topographic figure that the amounts you suggest are within the equilibria of what several players with different incomes are willing and able to pay.

What you consider expensive might be cheap for others and vice versa.

I'm stepping in to say Flaylocks are perfect as are. I've killed plenty with them recently. Breach variant, actually. (It's bloody hilarious.)

Flux do as they say on the tin.

Lasers are pretty damn awesome; they can cut people down with ease. (Been on both sides of this the past few days.)

Scrambler Pistols are legendary for headshot kills. Forgot about that super multiplier for it, guy?

The Scrambler rifles are fine, especially the Assault one. I actually watch the kill feed. It pops up more than you think.

All variants of the Heavy dropsuit, including Commando, cannot be judged as overpowered or underpowered as of yet, due to the sheer fact only the Amarrians have heavy suits.

Added: I will not talk about vehicles. I've said quite a bit about them as time has passed.

Added added note: Every suit tier has minor differences between the one above it. People that think prototype suits are supposed to be all powerful are... hilarious. Dropsuit builds are built around modules, not suits. Suits hold the slots, but modules hold the power. Never forget.

Making assumptions out of thin air is a recipe for disaster, your thought experiment is as good as your assumptions and that is basic economics. So what kind of generative and auxiliary assumptions support your idea?

Since buffing everything is ALOT of work for the developers.
AND
An nerfs would hurt players feelings on their favorite weapons.

I propose an economic solution!

In short. from STD - proto

• Weapons that are UP or extremely niche should have their ISK prices reduced to between 1/2 and 1/3 of what they are now.
• Vehicles and vehicles mods, and turrets should have their prices reduced to 1/3 their cost too.
• drop suits that are UP should have their prices reduced to between 1/2 and 1/3 of their current price

weapons that are UP are as follows:

• HMG
• flaylocks
• Shotguns
• Lazers
• flux grenades (who even uses these beyond std?)
• nova knives
• Scrambler pistols
• Ascr [reduce by 25%]
• Scr [reduce by 25%)
• plasma cannons

this list may be amended

drop suits that are UP:

• Commando suit (reduce to 1/4th the price)
• heavy suit (not milita. reduce by 1/2)
• Scout suits (yes reduce to 1/3 or 1/4. they die too fast to be so costly)
• reduce the price of equipment.

Vehicles:

• LAVs [reduce to 1/2 their current price]
• Dropships [reduce to the current price of LAVs with max cost at 100K-150K at assault level. they blow up in one shot from forges. 70k ISK or less worth of material blowing up 770k worht of dropship and turret mods makes no economic sense. why should anyone every dropship? with a 150k ISK cap, at least you can make back the loss in one match and continue to dropship]
• Tanks [reduce the price to 1/3 the current prices. Common guys, they are tough, but they can't run from the super AV.]

vehicle mods and turrents:
all should have 1/2 the current price or prices equivalent of those of proto weapons at the infantry level.



The above lists will be amended.

conclusion
These are not buffs, or nerfs. These are economic approaches to a growing problem. Most of the pain of having your dropship or tank instant killed by AV is that you lost 1.3 million ISK worth of material in less than a few seconds from 70K or less worth of AV equipment. most of the pain of lossing your proto heavy suit to a milita AR is that 0isk worht of weaponry destroyed 150k worth of material. [probably not from 1 milita AR firing at you, but heavy suits can't particular run away now can they].

Since the advantages of proto gear (other than assault suits and proto ARs) right now are being mitigated due to recent developments, the most neutral way to fix this problem is to make things cost less. Dying 5 times in a milita suit doesnt get me as mad as having a blue berry crash my 1million isk dropship into the dust which is worth 0isk.

comments? sign if you agree.

lol @ assault dropships getting 1 hit killed by forges

It takes 3 hits from a proto breach with stacked damage mods to kill mine and by that time im usually out of there and recalling it.

The assault dropship does need a buff though

Aye

Yes. Becasue 1/2 shotting people with a Scrambler Pistol is really underpowered. One shotting people with a Plasma Cannon is underpowered. And the shotgun is amazing; the hit detection is not. The laser is ******* amazing how can you call it UP? Nova Knives are fine, maybe needs better HIT DETECTION!!!

Ha ha he, here here!

I hope that makes sense though. The better players are in top 10 because they truly are better, put more time in, and dedicate their skills correctly. There is no "basic economics" in price manipulation and to do so negates your primary point stated as the desire to veer away from nerf-buffing (which I completely agree with). Essentially, it's even more difficult to tweak prices than tweaking stats and lacks substantial precedence.

I agree with your primary goal, just not the means. The secondary market is the way to go. If everyone wants to go for AR's, then everyone can make money manufacturing them. If everyone wants a specific OP piece of gear or suit, then they got to start paying what they think it's worth to them.

Combine that with the "Pinata Theory"...or the idea that the better gear, suits, weapons an opponent has, the better rewards and loot you receive for killing them...and you got yourself one hell of a self-regulated, competitive game.

:D