For the sniping rules. Remember. This applies to sockets only.

For those believing we need a better system where players are the solution to snipers, we also believe this. Game design will be working something for this out eventually. I have discussed this before on IRC at least and possibly here on the forums. The design team would like to come up with something effective that makes the players a part of that experience. For example, and I stress this is an "example" idea only. A player can laser sight a sniper location allowing other players to more easily hit a sniping location with mortars.

With that being said, take into consideration again, the rule only applies to sockets. With height variations in terrain, and sockets sitting on various heights, other variously sized objects on the terrain not inside actual sockets, and the variations of terrain in of its self, the snipers have plenty of locations to snipe from still.

For the sniping rules. Remember. This applies to sockets only.

For those believing we need a better system where players are the solution to snipers, we also believe this. Game design will be working something for this out eventually. I have discussed this before on IRC at least and possibly here on the forums. The design team would like to come up with something effective that makes the players a part of that experience. For example, and I stress this is an "example" idea only. A player can laser sight a sniper location allowing other players to more easily hit a sniping location with mortars.

With that being said, take into consideration again, the rule only applies to sockets. With height variations in terrain, and sockets sitting on various heights, other variously sized objects on the terrain not inside actual sockets, and the variations of terrain in of its self, the snipers have plenty of locations to snipe from still.

Your new maps are totally sniper unfriendly. No high points, most facilities have fences on the roof and around the building. So snipers have to find a spot where they can watch for targets, because a sniper rifle is absolutely no good as an assault weapon, and the scout suits are so weak, in shield and armor.

Now add on to this that we have to actually take a step, or fire our weapon, which can give away our position because just scanning an area zooming in and out looking for a target trips the "TACNET sessions will expire if no action is taken" and if we see something coming through the buildings (so we don't want to give away our position) we are kicked out!

This is absolutely **! I played a long time to get to lvl 5 scout so I could use it for sniping. A LOT of time and also money to try to have something to enjoy playing the game.

What a waste. If I could, I would want all my money that I put into the game back, and would even like to get paid for the wasted time.

Please do something about this timer, at least for snipers. You created the suit, yet you continuously ignore the pleads of those using the scout suit - but you gladly listen to and respond to everyone who cries about afk'rs and the op sniper. A scout (especially a sniper using a scout suit) needs to be able to use the equipment that you make them work so hard to try to get leveled into, yet is then crippled even more by whiners that you listen to and want to take care of - not thinking about those of us that need to lay still, or move slowly.

Addendum: Not fair that you add any deaths to my count, but not the kills if I leave or am kicked trying to snipe. If Imust loose equipment and have that death tallied, then I should also get credit for any kills.

Our goal, and it has been achieved with this socket set, is preventing entire areas from being completely dominated by snipers. Biomass and Communications is another great example. Where the only access to those top areas is a dropship, and an army of snipers reside there. Dominating an entire outpost. This is not "fun" for the people who are playing the game the way we intended it to be played.

might i suggest the option to carry a module to pop the scope off and turn it to a 3 round AR (assault rifle not armalite)

I don't have as much a problem with the high up snipers as I do the redline guys. They **** me off. Can you make it so they don't get credit for kills behind the redline?

Or, much simpler.. just GIVE US A SIGHT MARKER for hipfire, like EVERY SINGLE OTHER WEAPON?!?!!?!?!
A Tac variant sniper rifle is somewhat useful from hip. (even a regular one, but less so). I have very rarely managed to save myself with some "no-scope" action, but it would be much more frequent with a sight marker.

(Hmm... tac rifle, with hip fire aim assist. OOOooohhh... i think some people might like to actually spec into sniper rifle for that )

Yay, hipfire crosshairs for sniper rifles! Now we can have charged rifles no-scope OHKing people all match every match! That's just what we've been needing!

Allow me to quote myself from another sniper thread:

Hm.. "The Force (of sarcasm) is strong with this one.."

Let me point out first of all, that "charged" and "hipfire" dont really go well together.

But if you insist that this is a thing, and would be bad... the only "solution" to that, would be to disable hipfire entirely.
(which would be Very Wrong)

Currently, people who really want to abuse this sort of thing (and dang it, now I'm one of them! ) can do it already.
They can make their own "reticule" and use it. Just a small neon sticky-fragment stuck to your monitor works Real Gud.

Do what I do when I snipe. Use an Caldari assault suit, sniper rifle and carry an SMG that you have fairly leveled up. Pull out the SMG while traveling, travel with teammates in case of a firefight, find a spot at ground level or with moderate elevation, take a few shots, move on. Just repeat the process. The bonus is that most people don't look for snipers at ground level so you have a little bit of an element of surprise. Not only that, but you might even get a few SMG kills while moving from point to point.

i'm not sure how it happened but during one match I had a single black dot on my screen where my reticule would normally be, I thought I had a dead pixel, but It worked as a reticule and it didn't help much at all, if you hip-fire a sniper rifle it has a massive spread.

But what was your sniper skill? Methinks 0 or 1.
Remember that sniper rifles have a lot of sway at low skill levels. I'm wondering if spread is less at higher levels.
Will have to check this out tonight.

PS to Blind Shot:
"run and gun snipers", aka short range snipers, shouldnt be carrying sniper rifles. they should use scrambler rifles.

Charged shot when convenient (and great OHK headshot capability), or 6-8 rapidfire burst WITH AUTO-AIM when not.

Well boys, dedicated sniper here.

I think some of you know me because I'm on so many of your in-game hate-mail lists (it comes with the territory when you are a sniper).

Lots of the hackable stuff is inside the new sockets, on top of structures, underground or on hills. It's dangerous enough for snipers to hack the old types of objectives because when we do it we are behind the action with no-one to cover us. Now it is a bit more of a gamble because I have to run up or down stairs and around corners.

Well boys, dedicated sniper here.

I think some of you know me because I'm on so many of your in-game hate-mail lists (it comes with the territory when you are a sniper).

I'd like to offer a few thoughts.

I believe one of the best solutions to the sniper problem is to move the redlines out, so they they overlap more. I'm not a fan of redline sniping myself. It seems unsporting and artificial. Anyone in the game should be able to CQC me when I'm sniping. Also, make playable areas bigger on the old maps. Man, I'd love to get behind an enemy team and snipe them from an unexpected direction. Big risk to me but potential big payoff for my team.

Maps where the CQC is in a bowl completely surrounded by mountains are bad, bad, bad, in my opinion. Some broken terrain with hills or outcrops here and there would be better. A few maps have stretches of terrain like this but there are no objectives on them. These areas are wasted space.

The absolute best defence against sniping is counter-sniping. A ton of my kills are other snipers. It is a whole meta-game in itself. I love it when the guys in my corp ask me to hunt one down. Or when two snipers know each other are out there and it becomes a grudge match interspersed with sniping the red CQC guys.

A second excellent defence against snipers are scouts with shotguns. Or anyone who cares to walk over to me with any weapon. I'm usually always scoped in. Boom! Sniper paste.

I haven't found any ladders or otherwise climbable tall features on the new maps and there are lots of wide open spaces. There may be some perches but I can't control the map rotations to give myself a chance to find them. This doesn't mean I'll give up looking, though. The dropship solution is not a bad one but unless the pilot is on comms I can't ask to be let off on a building or mountain. He may not even realize I'm a sniper. And let's be honest, blueberry dropships are usually a place where you wait around, doing nothing before you die.

Lots of the new sockets are completely enclosed. This is ok but many of the doors, entrances and areas around them are hidden or are impossible to see from large parts (and often all parts) of the map. I guess this means I can't cover my team when they jump in for a hack or cover the site after it has been hacked. Isn't that sort of what I'm supposed to do?

I'd like to help scout for my team but the new scanners (the ones I've used) don't have the range I need to snipe and scan properly. Sniping is usually done at a range of about 400m. There may be some scanner variants that can scan up to 400m, so I might be wrong. I can still use my eyeball but I can't really take in big movements, now I'm usually just reporting stragglers, snipers or people at the fringe of the map. Very occasionally I can spot a bigger group that my team isn't aware of. To be clear: I don't want squad vision back, I'm just pointing out things I notice.

Lots of the hackable stuff is inside the new sockets, on top of structures, underground or on hills. It's dangerous enough for snipers to hack the old types of objectives because when we do it we are behind the action with no-one to cover us. Now it is a bit more of a gamble because I have to run up or down stairs and around corners. I always seem to run into sentinels with big, nasty guns and worse attitudes. HTFU you say? Ok, that's fair. I'll stay put until I can grind myself to a decent skill level with a CQC weapon. But wait, that means I can't also carry my sniper rifle unless I use a commando drop suit. Commando suits aren't noted for their big slot arrays, so I can't fully prep the suit for either role. HTFU you say? Ok, that's fair. I'll stay put.

Snipers aren't usually packing the top of the killboards to my knowledge. Are we that big of a problem? Players just need to move randomly. It's a pain in the keister to snipe them when they randomly shift around. I think everyone knows this, if not I just gave away the biggest secret in the game. Sorry other snipers.

High risk snipers = useless snipers.

That "improvement" in just how easily you can reach them is proof of that.

No one gives a fk about balance. As long as they don't get sniped anymore.

How awful it would be if you'd actually *gasp* die to something other than a countersnipe!

ok this snipers can't play on the ground myth has to go........... if you play back man to your team you can push with an assualting force and be very devastating support fire. I've seen many people do it and have done it my self, and I ******* suck at sniping, if you keep an SMG off hand you can push in with your teammates when they push where you can no longer snipe and be extremely effective still.

Snipers need to learn to adapt and learn to play on the ground ... **** im gonna have to level up SR in my alt to start proving this aren't I??

I don't know the specific numbers off hand either. What the big problem was, was the rooftop camping with many snipers completely owning a socket. That's a huge issue we wanted to address. Now when we talk about better sniper perch placements, and having some more of them, then were talking logically and reasonably. And I am for supporting that in level designs. So I look forward to hearing constructive feedback on that. I hope you would be sure to do that in the outposts thread when you feel you are ready.

I haven't found any ladders or otherwise climbable tall features on the new maps and there are lots of wide open spaces. There may be some perches but I can't control the map rotations to give myself a chance to find them. This doesn't mean I'll give up looking, though. The dropship solution is not a bad one but unless the pilot is on comms I can't ask to be let off on a building or mountain. He may not even realize I'm a sniper. And let's be honest, blueberry dropships are usually a place where you wait around, doing nothing before you die.

Ladders were at least on this map a hard requirement to not use. We still have some technical issues with ladders as well. This is a big part of why you see less of them now. Also we are not fans of having players climb extremely long distances (like to the top of some of those buildings in OA for example.) We hope to get another method for scaling buildings in the future..

I've spent 14mil sp into a scout and feel as I am militia grade. I've spent frustrating hours trying to compete, I seriously have to try hard. I don't use ARs I don't use grenades, not the MD. As you can see there is a knifing community, so fix our knives. The only sure kills are ppl standing still. You are killing me CCP, you are killing me over and over.

That is a horrible place to be, as a sniper.
Its centralized location, relatively high position to the map itself, and low clearance (distance from pipeline to ground) make it one of the best placed for Drop Up-Link deployment. This results in many people focusing their attention there, while being in range of nearly every weapon, as people try to make their way there themselves for it's team-oriented benefits. Laser Rifles and Scrambler Rifles are better suited for that position than the Sniper Rifle.

Fracture Road (thanks for the name) lacks any common path. The map itself is so large and spread apart that it necessitates the use of vehicles. The map constantly has the vehicle quota reached. The hit-detection while in LAVs is still pitiful. So much of their body is exposed, yet so little can actually take damage. While Dropships protect their cargo by flying with the nose or aft facing a sniper.

I'm no stranger to Combat Sniping (the act of sniping from within AR range), that was my bread and butter of Ambush in Beta. Ashland was very good for this. Skirmish point "A" and the catwalk for the pipelines. There were many good spots on that map, all within the range of an HMG (with Sharp-Shooter). Line Harvest as well. From the table-top itself to many positions on the ground around it.

These new maps have no such area where people need to travel, except the vast distances between each multi-layered installation. And there are a great deal of different paths you can take, typically staying in cover. Until a single head-shot from a Tactical Sniper Rifle can kill a suit of the same tier, the Sniper Rifle will never be an area-denial weapon again. The new design philosophy of "no long range access" to null cannons means it can't be a point defense either.

The most tactically advantageous point on each of the new maps would be on top of those turbines... only they cause damage to anyone atop of them.

Much like the HMG needs a bottleneck in close quarters to maximize its defensive capabilities, the sniper rifle needs a bottleneck on open terrain.

maths.

Ishukone Sniper Rifle: 229.5 base damage. proficiency 5, +15%. 5 complex damage mods +31.34%, head-shot bonus +75%

229.5*1.15= 263.925 * 1.3134 = 346.369 * 1.75 = 606.6 damage

In PC, the charge time on the Charged Sniper Rifle is just too long. Doing point defense or area denial just isn't viable with it. it can get a bunch of kills in pub matches, but that's because most people aren't running full proto. Though it can do a lot of damage, requiring it to be a head-shot to kill is a bit ludicrous. The tiny bumps in on most of the maps make that precision very hard, and if people know a sniper is out there then they will dance around and not just travel in a perfectly straight line.

321.86 is the Charge's base
max possible damage to Head-shot is 850


and 355.3 for the Thales... so 939. But that really shouldn;t be taken into consideration when talking about balance. it is drastically underpowered compared to the bonuses that the Balac's the Krin's, or the Gastuns' give to their weapons
Nor should damage modifiers be used to balance the weapon. You don;t hear people screaming that the 'Exile' and 'Toxin' ARs are over powered because you can stack damage mods on suits with those. it is only when talking about sniper people cry out about Damage Modifiers (and Ishukone Breach Forge Gun :/ ) being unfair and being too high. I should be able to use a sniper rifle on a Gallente Scout (single high slot) just as well as on a Caldari Assault suit (4 high slots), or many favored Amarr Logistics suits (3 highs).

The charge Sniper Rifle needs to have a base damage ranging from 400 to 450. The whole point of sacrificing Rate of Fire is to do massive amounts of damage. Which is the amount it does currently with damage mods and high proficiency.

The Ishukone and Kaalakiota similarly need that boost in raw damage output. so around 335-350 for the Ishukone and 275-300 for the Kaalakiota. A buff to the ADV variants to bring them into the middle of current STD vaules (which are good for STD weapons) and modified proto values.

As well as a return to the original head shot modifier of 195%

EDIT: Scout suit math. Base Shield = 70, Base armor =130. Complex plate = 145. So a Scout couldn't actually take that with 5 damage mods, but they could/did with only a single complex damage modifier. Unless of course, you run 2 armor plates and then you can

Reduce the Forge Gun's anti-infantry ability and none of this would be the problem you think it is.
Hundreds of PC matches i've been in have been focused on who can get their forge gunners to the high point on the map first, not who can have a sniper guard a point.

A better way to deter sniping from the red-line in public contracts would be far better for the community as a whole than the method of keeping Null Cannons protected from snipers.

Looks like we were "too smart". We shouldn't have done too much "thinking" and have our Forge Gun buddies join us on our perches. The fact, that a single Militia Sniper Rifle can suppress us be damned. How dare we be effective.

Just stop using the sniper rifle man.
I forum-fought on behalf of snipers for nearly a year, but it made no difference. The dedicated snipers are too small a minority, and we have no one at CCP that identifies with us, to work on our behalf as a representative during development.
The tyranny of the assault majority has won in the end, in a VERY big way. Every future map to ever be designed will deliberately further limit a sniper's capability?

I'm astonished. That's a defeat in every possible way.
That's like God saying, "Not only am I going to curse you. I'm going to curse every single one of your fkin children until your bloodline is destroyed. Don't worry. You'll survive if you think."

Like hell we would. We barely finally managed to start flourishing at the end of Chromosome and into Uprising, just for this crap to start.
That said, I'm wondering just WHAT POSSIBLE METRIC made Snipers look so damn overpowered? Snipers had decent perches, they could effect a game if a sniper was GOOD. But they never guaranteed a victory, and more often than not, the team with snipers lost.

What convinced CCP to go with an anti-sniper level design? What?
It COULD NOT have been the complainers, because you have more people complaining about the Assault Rifle than you do people that complain about Snipers.

I want to know WHAT the snipers did to deserve getting an ENTIRE DESIGN PHILOSOPHY geared against them?

The fact, that a single Militia Sniper Rifle can suppress us be damned. How dare we be effective.

. . .


What convinced CCP to go with an anti-sniper level design? What?
It COULD NOT have been the complainers, because you have more people complaining about the Assault Rifle than you do people that complain about Snipers.

I want to know WHAT the snipers did to deserve getting an ENTIRE DESIGN PHILOSOPHY geared against them?