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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
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CCP LogicLoop
C C P
C C P Alliance
782
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Posted - 2013.09.06 06:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
On the topic of sniper locations. We have a set of parameters we follow. Since in all reality with a DS a sniper can reach nearly any high position. We took steps to ensure that what sniper points do exist are able to be engaged by other players in some way.
To be more specific, over a certain height in meters snipers are completely blocked. In one range X meters up to X meters the sniper must be limited in their movement and must always be exposed to ground units. In the last parameter, that sits at the lowest of meters snipers are given more freedom to move, and able to move in and out of exposure freely.
Objective hack locations are to be protected from "long range" attacks and any snipers if at all possible. |
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CCP LogicLoop
C C P
C C P Alliance
782
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Posted - 2013.09.06 06:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
ladwar wrote:CCP LogicLoop wrote:On the topic of sniper locations. We have a set of parameters we follow. Since in all reality with a DS a sniper can reach nearly any high position. We took steps to ensure that what sniper points do exist are able to be engaged by other players in some way.
To be more specific, over a certain height in meters snipers are completely blocked. In one range X meters up to X meters the sniper must be limited in there movement and must always be exposed to ground units. In the last parameter, that sits at the lowest of meters snipers are given more freedom to move, and able to move in and out of exposure freely.
Objective hack locations are to be protected from "long range" attacks and any snipers if at all possible. right.... some how i don't believe that is true with the older maps, maybe with the newer ones to some degree or another but its not really snipers that worry me its the forge gunners using then like sniper rifles to stop any and all hacks on objectives.
You are correct. These rules were put in place as we started the development of the Research Facility. What you are seeing is the transition to these new hard requirements. Eventually all sockets will have this put into place. |
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CCP LogicLoop
C C P
C C P Alliance
846
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Posted - 2013.09.09 00:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
For the sniping rules. Remember. This applies to sockets only.
For those believing we need a better system where players are the solution to snipers, we also believe this. Game design will be working something for this out eventually. I have discussed this before on IRC at least and possibly here on the forums. The design team would like to come up with something effective that makes the players a part of that experience. For example, and I stress this is an "example" idea only. A player can laser sight a sniper location allowing other players to more easily hit a sniping location with mortars.
With that being said, take into consideration again, the rule only applies to sockets. With height variations in terrain, and sockets sitting on various heights, other variously sized objects on the terrain not inside actual sockets, and the variations of terrain in of its self, the snipers have plenty of locations to snipe from still.
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CCP LogicLoop
C C P
C C P Alliance
849
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Posted - 2013.09.09 01:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:CCP LogicLoop wrote:For the sniping rules. Remember. This applies to sockets only.
For those believing we need a better system where players are the solution to snipers, we also believe this. Game design will be working something for this out eventually. I have discussed this before on IRC at least and possibly here on the forums. The design team would like to come up with something effective that makes the players a part of that experience. For example, and I stress this is an "example" idea only. A player can laser sight a sniper location allowing other players to more easily hit a sniping location with mortars.
With that being said, take into consideration again, the rule only applies to sockets. With height variations in terrain, and sockets sitting on various heights, other variously sized objects on the terrain not inside actual sockets, and the variations of terrain in of its self, the snipers have plenty of locations to snipe from still.
Sniper - definition "a marksman who shoots at people from a concealed place" 1. This can't be done anymore at long range because of your new parameters. 2. The actual operation of the sniper rifle in-game prevents it from being used effectively at closer ranges. 3. Once spotted, the sniper is always within range of other weapons. Sniper survivability plummets by this. 4. The sniper rifle needs the ability to engage combatants at mid-range mobility combat, in order to compete with the current rules.
It can be done. Use tactics, use strategy, coordinate with your team / squad, and find good locations. Strategy, tactics, teamwork. |
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CCP LogicLoop
C C P
C C P Alliance
850
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Posted - 2013.09.09 03:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:CCP LogicLoop wrote:Jathniel wrote:CCP LogicLoop wrote:For the sniping rules. Remember. This applies to sockets only.
For those believing we need a better system where players are the solution to snipers, we also believe this. Game design will be working something for this out eventually. I have discussed this before on IRC at least and possibly here on the forums. The design team would like to come up with something effective that makes the players a part of that experience. For example, and I stress this is an "example" idea only. A player can laser sight a sniper location allowing other players to more easily hit a sniping location with mortars.
With that being said, take into consideration again, the rule only applies to sockets. With height variations in terrain, and sockets sitting on various heights, other variously sized objects on the terrain not inside actual sockets, and the variations of terrain in of its self, the snipers have plenty of locations to snipe from still.
Sniper - definition "a marksman who shoots at people from a concealed place" 1. This can't be done anymore at long range because of your new parameters. 2. The actual operation of the sniper rifle in-game prevents it from being used effectively at closer ranges. 3. Once spotted, the sniper is always within range of other weapons. Sniper survivability plummets by this. 4. The sniper rifle needs the ability to engage combatants at mid-range mobility combat, in order to compete with the current rules. It can be done. Use tactics, use strategy, coordinate with your team / squad, and find good locations. Strategy, tactics, teamwork. Sniper teams were already doing that.  The new design principle is penalizing this, I've you clearly stated. Good snipers were hurt more by this than bad ones. The forge sniping was the problem, not general sniper positioning. What's done is done. Sniping is dead.
While you may think we are trying to prevent you from playing your role, we are not. You do not even know the actual meter count, or ranges that make up the rules. You only know that we have taken measures to ensure snipers are not in mass dominating an entire map (like Manus Peak).
This is the direction that leadership wants this, because they have a vision of what the game play is to be for every role, and how each role supports one another. The sniper is not dead.
Our goal, and it has been achieved with this socket set, is preventing entire areas from being completely dominated by snipers. Biomass and Communications is another great example. Where the only access to those top areas is a dropship, and an army of snipers reside there. Dominating an entire outpost. This is not "fun" for the people who are playing the game the way we intended it to be played.
We use sight lines, the rule set I discussed earlier, and general layouts to encourage effective game play from each role. Strategy and tactics entails using logic, and planning, coordination with others, effective dropsuit fittings, and weapons load-outs. What we are encouraging is "thinking".
You can still snipe, you can still be useful to your team. If you so desire to try and play with your squads and other players in an effective way. |
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CCP LogicLoop
C C P
C C P Alliance
875
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Posted - 2013.09.11 06:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
Poonmunch wrote:Well boys, dedicated sniper here.
I think some of you know me because I'm on so many of your in-game hate-mail lists (it comes with the territory when you are a sniper).
I'd like to offer a few thoughts.
I believe one of the best solutions to the sniper problem is to move the redlines out, so they they overlap more. I'm not a fan of redline sniping myself. It seems unsporting and artificial. Anyone in the game should be able to CQC me when I'm sniping. Also, make playable areas bigger on the old maps. Man, I'd love to get behind an enemy team and snipe them from an unexpected direction. Big risk to me but potential big payoff for my team.
I am not sure what you mean by overlap. We can't really overlap the redlines. The way they function is we have three volume types. Attacker, Defender, and All.
Poonmunch wrote:
Maps where the CQC is in a bowl completely surrounded by mountains are bad, bad, bad, in my opinion. Some broken terrain with hills or outcrops here and there would be better. A few maps have stretches of terrain like this but there are no objectives on them. These areas are wasted space.
I agree with this entirely.
Poonmunch wrote:
The absolute best defence against sniping is counter-sniping. A ton of my kills are other snipers. It is a whole meta-game in itself. I love it when the guys in my corp ask me to hunt one down. Or when two snipers know each other are out there and it becomes a grudge match interspersed with sniping the red CQC guys.
A second excellent defence against snipers are scouts with shotguns. Or anyone who cares to walk over to me with any weapon. I'm usually always scoped in. Boom! Sniper paste.
Shhhhh, youll make the other snipers mad!
Poonmunch wrote:
I haven't found any ladders or otherwise climbable tall features on the new maps and there are lots of wide open spaces. There may be some perches but I can't control the map rotations to give myself a chance to find them. This doesn't mean I'll give up looking, though. The dropship solution is not a bad one but unless the pilot is on comms I can't ask to be let off on a building or mountain. He may not even realize I'm a sniper. And let's be honest, blueberry dropships are usually a place where you wait around, doing nothing before you die.
Ladders were at least on this map a hard requirement to not use. We still have some technical issues with ladders as well. This is a big part of why you see less of them now. Also we are not fans of having players climb extremely long distances (like to the top of some of those buildings in OA for example.) We hope to get another method for scaling buildings in the future.
Poonmunch wrote:
Lots of the new sockets are completely enclosed. This is ok but many of the doors, entrances and areas around them are hidden or are impossible to see from large parts (and often all parts) of the map. I guess this means I can't cover my team when they jump in for a hack or cover the site after it has been hacked. Isn't that sort of what I'm supposed to do?
I find this comment particularly interesting. I understand entirely what you mean and will take this into consideration on future designs.
I would however like to ask if you had considered that you could be protecting from say people entering into those closed off areas? This way you are still assisting. You just may not have your own men in sight. Granted this opportunity may not be extremely obvious or exist in ideal locations for a sniper as well. But I still do wonder if you had considered it in general.
Poonmunch wrote:
I'd like to help scout for my team but the new scanners (the ones I've used) don't have the range I need to snipe and scan properly. Sniping is usually done at a range of about 400m. There may be some scanner variants that can scan up to 400m, so I might be wrong. I can still use my eyeball but I can't really take in big movements, now I'm usually just reporting stragglers, snipers or people at the fringe of the map. Very occasionally I can spot a bigger group that my team isn't aware of. To be clear: I don't want squad vision back, I'm just pointing out things I notice.
Fair point.
Poonmunch wrote:
Lots of the hackable stuff is inside the new sockets, on top of structures, underground or on hills. It's dangerous enough for snipers to hack the old types of objectives because when we do it we are behind the action with no-one to cover us. Now it is a bit more of a gamble because I have to run up or down stairs and around corners. I always seem to run into sentinels with big, nasty guns and worse attitudes. HTFU you say? Ok, that's fair. I'll stay put until I can grind myself to a decent skill level with a CQC weapon. But wait, that means I can't also carry my sniper rifle unless I use a commando drop suit. Commando suits aren't noted for their big slot arrays, so I can't fully prep the suit for either role. HTFU you say? Ok, that's fair. I'll stay put.
For the SI set, this is primarily to achieve the goal of vehicles not being able to spam an objective. Anything close quarters is going to be a gamble for a player not having a strong armor. Such as a sniper. This comes down to what your play style will be I think. .
Poonmunch wrote:
Snipers aren't usually packing the top of the killboards to my knowledge. Are we that big of a problem? Players just need to move randomly. It's a pain in the keister to snipe them when they randomly shift around. I think everyone knows this, if not I just gave away the biggest secret in the game. Sorry other snipers.
I don't know the specific numbers off hand either. What the big problem was, was the rooftop camping with many snipers completely owning a socket. That's a huge issue we wanted to address. Now when we talk about better sniper perch placements, and having some more of them, then were talking logically and reasonably. And I am for supporting that in level designs. So I look forward to hearing constructive feedback on that. I hope you would be sure to do that in the outposts thread when you feel you are ready.
Poon... |
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