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[Feedback] 2 Complex Reactive plates vs. 1 Enhanced Plate and armor repper (new)

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Tallen Ellecon KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 737	Posted - 2013.09.18 18:07:00 - [31] - Quote As far as the shield versus armor debate is going, I think this setup is fine. With the return of ARs, SCRs, and LRs shields are having more than enough trouble. Ferroscale and Reactive plates are good for those who armor tank but can't sacrifice speed, or have no repping capabilities, but not a superior alternative to basic reppers and plates.
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster 996	Posted - 2013.09.18 18:26:00 - [32] - Quote This is why I want more PG for Gallente light and medium frame suits(besides Logi suits) +2 base would do it.
CLONE117 Planetary Response Organization Test Friends Please Ignore 366	Posted - 2013.09.18 18:29:00 - [33] - Quote it seems to be a trade off..it gives armor and reps...all in one module slot.. but its drawbacks include being weaker than the armor plate and armor repper modules..which will take up 2 slots... so stacking reactive plating shouldnt be an alternative for those who armor tank.... although i do think it should rep a little faster than the way it is now... id rather stick with my mlt fitting with 496 armor and 2hp/s rep rate instead of the 522 armor and 1hp/s repair rate....now if reactive plating efficiency was effected by both the armor rep skill and armor plate skills that would make it better..
Ion Crush Militaires-Sans-Frontieres 85	Posted - 2013.09.18 18:31:00 - [34] - Quote What I would like to see are some more low slot items that we want to use. We'd use more of the low slots up with other modules so the reactive plat starts to look good with 2 stats instead of 1.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2378	Posted - 2013.09.19 10:44:00 - [35] - Quote Ion Crush wrote: What I would like to see are some more low slot items that we want to use. We'd use more of the low slots up with other modules so the reactive plat starts to look good with 2 stats instead of 1. Both would be good. It would be nice if there were high-slot armor modules. Consider that a shield tanker has a use for low slots (though really, plates are probably more useful to them than regulators), but an armor tanker basically has a shield or damage mod choice. Something like a resistance mod for armor in high slots might balance that out a bit more. I think the value of the scanning related mods (dampeners, etc.) is still pretty marginal as well. Those are separate issues to the value of the plates though.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1521	Posted - 2013.09.19 14:41:00 - [36] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Reactive plates are not meant to be used as an alternative to regular armor plates. They are supposed to be used instead of a repper, on mostly non Gallante suits. Then they suck at that job, too. Due to the limited slot layout of amarr suits I've tried to use them quite a few times. The loss of a whopping 4.3 HPs (compared to complex reppers) reps is in no way worth the extra 66 health. It is nice to be able to fit a regulator onto a suit instead of both a plate and a repper - but the RPs just cannot keep up with a repper. I'd use these plates if they followed this approximate tier system. basic reactive has 65 hp and 1 hps regen (equal to a militia plate and lower than militia reps) enhanced reactive has 85 hp and 2 hps regen (equal to a basic plate and basic reppers) complex reactive has 117 hp and 3 hps regen (advanced plate plus advanced reppers) They would keep their rather insane fitting costs and due to the fact that the armor rep skill's passive bonus does not apply to reactive plates they would still be inferior to reps.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2385	Posted - 2013.09.20 07:59:00 - [37] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Reactive plates are not meant to be used as an alternative to regular armor plates. They are supposed to be used instead of a repper, on mostly non Gallante suits. Then they suck at that job, too. Due to the limited slot layout of amarr suits I've tried to use them quite a few times. The loss of a whopping 4.3 HPs (compared to complex reppers) reps is in no way worth the extra 66 health. It is nice to be able to fit a regulator onto a suit instead of both a plate and a repper - but the RPs just cannot keep up with a repper. I'd use these plates if they followed this approximate tier system. basic reactive has 65 hp and 1 hps regen (equal to a militia plate and lower than militia reps) enhanced reactive has 85 hp and 2 hps regen (equal to a basic plate and basic reppers) complex reactive has 117 hp and 3 hps regen (advanced plate plus advanced reppers) They would keep their rather insane fitting costs and due to the fact that the armor rep skill's passive bonus does not apply to reactive plates they would still be inferior to reps. I could've sworn in the thread about the armor plate changes before 1.4, Wolfman said that the reactive were meant to be affected by Armor Rep's passive. As-is, the reps are so small that it hardly matters though. Also, I believe MLT plates and STD are both the same, they removed the hp difference and kept the fitting difference.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2410	Posted - 2013.09.25 00:49:00 - [38] - Quote Perhaps we can take another look at the plates-of-suck if we're already going to be doing community feedback on weapons and vehicles.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2626	Posted - 2013.10.03 16:49:00 - [39] - Quote Even on suits with few low-slots like STD Amarr Assaults, these still seem like a bad option. I'd like to emphasize that it's not just the complex reactive plates that have issues - all of them do. These need a look before they're viable options for suits. It's possible the high damage output of everyone right now makes them look even worse, and the reps aren't really appreciable and don't get any skill bonuses... so...
zibathy numbertwo Nox Aeterna Security 184	Posted - 2013.10.03 21:46:00 - [40] - Quote Ferroscale from Enhanced to Complex adds 25 more armor (50 to 75) while DOUBLING the PG (7 to 14) and increasing the CPU by 50% (27 to 39), which I guess makes sense, but doesn't really reward the sp invested if the efficiency is the same from ADV to PRO. STD Ferro to ADV Ferro adds 15 (40% increase) armor while more than TRIPLING PG (2 to 7) and almost doubling CPU (15 to 27) Fitting cost should be reduced so I can actually fit this crap on my armor tanking scout. Armor increase would be nice too so long as it's not OP...

Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1611	Posted - 2013.10.03 22:31:00 - [41] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Even on suits with few low-slots like STD Amarr Assaults, these still seem like a bad option. I'd like to emphasize that it's not just the complex reactive plates that have issues - all of them do. These need a look before they're viable options for suits. It's possible the high damage output of everyone right now makes them look even worse, and the reps aren't really appreciable and don't get any skill bonuses... so... A militia repper outperforms any equivalently oriced RP on a standard Amarr suit...
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2631	Posted - 2013.10.03 22:49:00 - [42] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: Even on suits with few low-slots like STD Amarr Assaults, these still seem like a bad option. I'd like to emphasize that it's not just the complex reactive plates that have issues - all of them do. These need a look before they're viable options for suits. It's possible the high damage output of everyone right now makes them look even worse, and the reps aren't really appreciable and don't get any skill bonuses... so... A militia repper outperforms any equivalently oriced RP on a standard Amarr suit... I'd use the my MLT Armor Plate BPO or MLT Armor Repper BPO before pretty much any of the reactive plates. /sigh
Kelrie Nae'bre not in a corporation 158	Posted - 2013.10.04 11:13:00 - [43] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: Talos Alomar wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: Even on suits with few low-slots like STD Amarr Assaults, these still seem like a bad option. I'd like to emphasize that it's not just the complex reactive plates that have issues - all of them do. These need a look before they're viable options for suits. It's possible the high damage output of everyone right now makes them look even worse, and the reps aren't really appreciable and don't get any skill bonuses... so... A militia repper outperforms any equivalently oriced RP on a standard Amarr suit... I'd use the my MLT Armor Plate BPO or MLT Armor Repper BPO before pretty much any of the reactive plates. /sigh Well of course MLT equipment is meant to seem vastly preferable to PRO gear. How would you bother changing Reactives then?
I-Shayz-I Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 989	Posted - 2013.10.04 12:03:00 - [44] - Quote I don't know if I've already made this argument...but here's my view on these modules. Say I'm running a medium suit with 3 lows. I want to be undetected by advanced scanners so I throw on a complex dampener. I also want to make sure my shields come back quickly so I use an advanced shield regulator. Now I only have one slot, but I still would like to add some armor to the suit. The problem is, adding more armor is pointless if you can't regenerate it. 1. I take away either the dampener or the regulator in order to fit both a plate and a repper. 2. I only use a repper, but it doesn't seem to work well 3. I use a reactive plates As a side note, because reactive plates work the same as regular plates in terms of stacking speed penalties, using a large quantity of them gives you a lot of health while still allowing you to move relatively quickly. __________________________ I agree with you that they suck. There are two reasons for this. 1. The armor repair value is too low. Needs to be more like 1-basic 2-enhanced 3-complex 2. The fitting cost is WAY too high. They did this because these are supposed to be the armor equivelent to shield extenders. The problem is that their cost doesn't match the amount of armor/repair we should get from them. All of the plates in a tier should cost the same amount of cpu//pg, but have different pros/cons. This is the classic example of something that sounds great on paper, and might work well in design (i.e. stats are based off of extenders), but doesn't work well in the game.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2639	Posted - 2013.10.04 13:41:00 - [45] - Quote Kelrie Nae'bre wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: blah blah Well of course MLT equipment is meant to seem vastly preferable to PRO gear. How would you bother changing Reactives then? There's more than one way to fix it, and it depends on if you're willing to change the skill reqs. Low hp, low reps, and high fitting combine to make them bad. The fact there's no requirement for armor repair skill (nor are they modified by it) keeps them from adding higher amounts of reps due to balance issues I think. If you can get your reps without skilling into armor repair, then you'd made a skill useless. I'd suggest they but a double req on them of both armor plates and armor repair, so Basic/Advanced/Complex reactive plates would require 1/1, 3/3, and 5/5 in those skills to be used. I think it'd free them from the notion of crippling the reps for the sake of balance. Also note that CCP Wolfman actually said that the Reactive plates ARE supposed to be impacted by repair skill. Despite this not happening, it would make more sense in the context of a dual-skill item in the first place. Stat-wise... there's a couple different approaches. First, current stats: Plates: 10/1 - 85hp, 2% 20/6 - 110hp, 3% 30/12 - 135hp, 5% Repper: 20/1 - 2hp/s 35/5 - 3hp/s 45/11 - 5hp/s Reactive: 10/4 - 25hp, 0%, 1hp/s 24/9 - 40hp, 1%, 1hp/s 36/16 - 60hp, 1%, 2hp/s A couple observations first: the existing growth on Reppers and Plates isn't exactly even. With the plates, fitting grows evenly with a sort of: (10x1/2/3,1/6/12) pace, and hp growth is also linear (X, X+25, X+50). However the speed penalty growth seems off in comparison - HP growth is linear but the speed penalty increase doubles (+1%, +2%). This is enough of a reason to avoid the complex plates a lot of the time, as 25 hp probably isn't worth 2% more of a speed hit. Either the hp should've doubled too (160hp plate) or the speed hit should've been at 4%. Reppers have something of the opposite problem. The fitting jumps somewhat unevenly (+15/+10, 1/5/11) while the relative gain on the reppers doubles (+1hp/s, +2hp/s). The result is a actually a smaller CPU jump from ADV to PRO than from STD to ADV, but a larger gain for the smaller jump. Basically, you get higher returns on the last level for reppers, and lower returns for plates than you'd expect. Most of these comparisons would work better if that was even/fixed to begin with, but I'll put that aside for now. As a little experiment, let's make theoretical plates that just combine the stats of the two: 30/2 - 85hp, 2%, 2hp/s 55/11 - 110hp, 3%, 3hp/s 75/23 - 135hp, 5%, 5hp/s vs. 10/4 - 25hp, 0%, 1hp/s 24/9 - 40hp, 1%, 1hp/s 36/16 - 60hp, 1%, 2hp/s The stats for straight up combining them are much too good to use. The basic model would be easier to fit than an ADV Repper, and for only 1 less hp/s give a sizable hp boost, etc. The far end would be hard to fit on the other hand, and I don't think many people would bother with the Complex model for that sort degree of improvement over the ADV. The stats on the reactive plates are clearly much much worse though. Part of me thinks that the rep totals on the reactive wound up worse because repper amounts are already so low that it there's not many directions you can go if your original models are already fielding numbers as low as 2/3/5. On the other hand, the basic reactive plate manages to require more PG than the two other modules combined. Let's try a more linear set of gains with drawbacks included: 15/4 - 50hp, 2%, 1hp/s 30/10 - 70hp, 3%, 2hp/s 45/17 - 90hp, 4%, 3hp/s Take the OP comparison now: PRO-Reactive x2: 90/34 - 180hp, 8%, 6hp/s ADV Plate + Repper: 55/11 - 110hp, 3%, 3hp/s Here the gains of two PRO modules are clearly greater than two ADV modules (though with a big speed hit). In a PRO comparison: PRO-Reactive x2: 90/34 - 180hp, 8%, 6hp/s PRO Plate + Repper: 75/23 - 135hp, 5%, 5hp/s The reactive plate combo is costing more in fitting, and giving somewhat marginal gains in hp/hp/s for a larger speed hit. Does that seem right? I don't know. It might need some tweaking number-wise. The general idea is to give up on the idea of having plates perform this function without requiring the repair skill (or receiving bonuses), keep the fitting high, but make sure that armor-type speed penalties remain in place.
Kelrie Nae'bre not in a corporation 158	Posted - 2013.10.07 11:32:00 - [46] - Quote Quote: 15/4 - 50hp, 2%, 1hp/s 30/10 - 70hp, 3%, 2hp/s 45/17 - 90hp, 4%, 3hp/s I'd be more likely to use those.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1635	Posted - 2013.10.07 23:19:00 - [47] - Quote Kelrie Nae'bre wrote: Quote: 15/4 - 50hp, 2%, 1hp/s 30/10 - 70hp, 3%, 2hp/s 45/17 - 90hp, 4%, 3hp/s I'd be more likely to use those. I'd definitely run those, as long as they are affected by the amarr logi/armor rep skill.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2682	Posted - 2013.10.07 23:33:00 - [48] - Quote Talos Alomar wrote: Kelrie Nae'bre wrote: Quote: 15/4 - 50hp, 2%, 1hp/s 30/10 - 70hp, 3%, 2hp/s 45/17 - 90hp, 4%, 3hp/s I'd be more likely to use those. I'd definitely run those, as long as they are affected by the amarr logi/armor rep skill. Technically, they're already supposed to be impacted by skill bonuses, but Wolfman checking on it back in mid-August didn't bear any fruit (or he forgot). It seemed easier to me to work on addressing the plate stats before reminding them about the bonuses not working since the reps were so low on the reactive to begin with. If you have any feedback on the stats, then I'd be happy to hear it. I wanted something usable with some drawbacks, and mostly outperformed by individual modules in terms of stats/fittings.
Lynn Beck Granite Mercenary Division 139	Posted - 2013.10.07 23:36:00 - [49] - Quote I found a use for reactives!! When you're making an armor tanker and you prefer raw hp over repairs, you can use almost all plates and a basic reactive. Or if you're low on CPU and want a repair, you can use a basic reactive because compared to badic repairs, its 20cpu 1pg for basic rep, but 10cpu 4 pg for reactive
Dehlia Metii not in a corporation 64	Posted - 2013.10.08 11:13:00 - [50] - Quote Kelrie Nae'bre wrote: Quote: 15/4 - 50hp, 2%, 1hp/s 30/10 - 70hp, 3%, 2hp/s 45/17 - 90hp, 4%, 3hp/s I'd be more likely to use those. I'd use these too. The PRO version has just barely more hp than a STD/MLT plate, the reps are "ADV", the speed penalty between ADV and PRO. It seems like a fair set of tradeoffs. It's possible they'd want the CPU reqs slightly higher since the PRO reactive is the same CPU as a PRO repper.

Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2690	Posted - 2013.10.08 19:26:00 - [51] - Quote Dehlia Metii wrote: Kelrie Nae'bre wrote: Quote: 15/4 - 50hp, 2%, 1hp/s 30/10 - 70hp, 3%, 2hp/s 45/17 - 90hp, 4%, 3hp/s I'd be more likely to use those. I'd use these too. The PRO version has just barely more hp than a STD/MLT plate, the reps are "ADV", the speed penalty between ADV and PRO. It seems like a fair set of tradeoffs. It's possible they'd want the CPU reqs slightly higher since the PRO reactive is the same CPU as a PRO repper. That's idea I guess. a PRO reactive here: 45/17 - 90hp, 4%, 3hp/s Combines the functions of the two kinds of plates, but it's a complex item that gives you: BASIC HP (90hp is about the same as 85) ADV Reps (hard to scale it otherwise and not be stupidly pointless, 3hp/s = 3hp/s for ADV repper. Note that I had it start LESS than a basic rep (1 hp/s), and go up 1hp per rank). Speed hit that's greater than ADV, less than PRO (4%, which is slightly less than the penalty on PRO plates). The fitting scales up linearly from basic, and winds up with CPU that's the same as a complex mod, but PG that's higher than either (but less than combining a complex and a complex). The final fitting stats are higher than an original Reactive Complex plate, which was 36 CPU 16 PG.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2693	Posted - 2013.10.09 11:50:00 - [52] - Quote Bump..
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 156	Posted - 2013.10.09 12:31:00 - [53] - Quote I would prefer it if the Reactive Plates benefitted from both the Armor Plate Skill Bonus and the Amor Repairer Skill Bonus, combined with the OP.
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1647	Posted - 2013.10.09 15:27:00 - [54] - Quote Hagintora wrote: I would prefer it if the Reactive Plates benefitted from both the Armor Plate Skill Bonus and the Amor Repairer Skill Bonus, combined with the OP. they are supposed to already.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 156	Posted - 2013.10.09 15:33:00 - [55] - Quote And yet the only bonuses I can see are from the Armor Plate Skill
Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1647	Posted - 2013.10.09 15:46:00 - [56] - Quote Hagintora wrote: And yet the only bonuses I can see are from the Armor Plate Skill Haha, yeah. "Supposed to" being the operative phrase. It's broke.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2693	Posted - 2013.10.09 16:52:00 - [57] - Quote If they were dual-requirement plates, it'd make even more sense for the skill to apply I guess (even though it should already...).
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2698	Posted - 2013.10.10 12:52:00 - [58] - Quote Yeah, it's a bump...
Kelrie Nae'bre not in a corporation 173	Posted - 2013.10.11 05:07:00 - [59] - Quote These currently fall into the same niche as Commando suits in that sort of "Awkward and unusable" area.
Ghost Kaisar Pradox One 474	Posted - 2013.10.11 05:56:00 - [60] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Reactive plates are not meant to be used as an alternative to regular armor plates. They are supposed to be used instead of a repper, on mostly non Gallante suits. Why would anyone choose to use a reactive plate instead of a repper? the fitting costs are high, the repair rate is low, and HP gained from using a reactive instead of a repper is very small. It's like the lottery, a penalty on people that can't do math. Hmph. Thanks. I use an Enhanced reactive on my Scout for one reason. I have so little armor in the first place, I need that extra 40 to take that extra AR bullet. I also love the small passive rep as well. I run a stamina in the other slot, so I have that one extra slot and the CPU/PG to spare. I really do wish it gave a better rep though. 1 rep/s is pretty bad, but I would still take 123 armor with 1 rep/s over 80 armor with 2/s.



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