DUST Search - [Feedback] 2 Complex Reactive plates vs. 1 Enhanced Plate and armor repper (new)

Jathniel wrote:

Zeylon Rho wrote:

This is with new numbers and bonuses:

A)
2 x Complex Reactive
66 hp, 1% speed penalty, 2 hp/s repair @ 36 CPU 16 PG
=
132 hp, 2% speed penalty, 4 hp/s @ 72 CPU 32 PG

B)
1 Enhanced Plate
117 hp, 3% speed penalty @ 20 CPU 6 PG
&
1 Enhanced Armor repairer
3.45 hp/s @ 35 CPU 5 PG
=
117 hp, 3% speed penalty, 3.45 hp/s 55 CPU 11 PG

A.----vs.----B.
132 vs. 117 hp
2% vs. 3% speed penalty
4 vs. 3.45 hp/s repair
72 vs. 55 CPU
32 vs. 11 PG

Results?
Reactive plates give you 15 more hp, 1% faster move speed, and 0.15 more repair at a cost of 17 more CPU and 21 more PG.

For reference the total PG of a MLT Gallente Frame is 25 PG; so, just the surplus PG needed to operate the plates is about the same as the entire PG allotment on a MLT suit.

How popular would a low slot module that gives 15 hp, 0.15 repair, and subtracts 1% from move penalty be at 17 CPU 21 PG I wonder?

Sort of... it gets better:

SP cost:
A) requires Armor Plating 5
Total: 932,760 SP

B) requires Armor Plating 3 and Armor Repair Systems 3
cost 205,200 SP x 2
Total: 410,400 SP

You get:
15 more hp, 1% faster move speed, and 0.15 more repair at a cost of 17 more CPU and 21 more PG
AFTER you spend 522,360 MORE SP. You have to spend over twice as much SP for plates that are notably worse than these ADV modules.

Make Reactive Plates do what their name says it does..... "React".

Give Reactive plates a range of armor healing speed depending on how much fire they come under.

The more damage sustained the harder they rep, when not under fire, their rep speed gradually slows to a stop.

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Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2059	Posted - 2013.08.24 07:40:00 - [1] - Quote This is with new numbers and bonuses: A) 2 x Complex Reactive 66 hp, 1% speed penalty, 2 hp/s repair @ 36 CPU 16 PG = 132 hp, 2% speed penalty, 4 hp/s 72 CPU 32 PG B) 1 Enhanced Plate 117 hp, 3% speed penalty @ 20 CPU 6 PG & 1 Enhanced Armor repairer 3.45 hp/s @ 35 CPU 5 PG = 117 hp, 3% speed penalty, 3.45 hp/s 55 CPU 11 PG A.----vs.----B. 132 vs. 117 hp 2% vs. 3% speed penalty 4 vs. 3.45 hp/s repair 72 vs. 55 CPU 32 vs. 11 PG Results? Reactive plates give you 15 more hp, 1% faster move speed, and 0.15 more repair at a cost of 17 more CPU and 21 more PG. How popular would a low slot module that gives 15 hp, 0.15 repair, and subtracts 1% from move penalty be at 17 CPU 21 PG I wonder? Sort of... it gets better: SP cost: A) requires Armor Plating 5 Total: 932,760 SP B) requires Armor Plating 3 and Armor Repair Systems 3 cost 205,200 SP x 2 Total: 410,400 SP You get: 15 more hp, 1% faster move speed, and 0.15 more repair at a cost of 17 more CPU and 21 more PG AFTER you spend 522,360 MORE SP. You have to spend over twice as much SP for plates that are notably worse than these ADV modules.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. League of Infamy 657	Posted - 2013.08.24 09:17:00 - [2] - Quote Yep, you found the secret. Reactive plates are a poor fitting choice as they stand right now. The need to have more armor, a higher repair rate, or both of these two things to make their crazy cpu and pg costs worth while.
Happy Jack SD Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 2	Posted - 2013.08.24 09:27:00 - [3] - Quote Reactive plates are great when you only have one low slot. It's not really shocking that a module that does two things is outshone by two modules that do those two things individually. Having Reactive Plates being statistically viable in comparison to a combination of Plates and Reppers would mean people would just fill their low slots with them. Instead, Reactive Plates are something to use when you have one low slot and want some HP and Armour Reps. Instead, compare 1 Reactive Plate -vs- an Armour Plate /or/ a Armour Repper... I'm sure you'd agree the comparison changes drastically.
I-Shayz-I Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 692	Posted - 2013.08.24 10:23:00 - [4] - Quote Happy Jack SD wrote: Instead, compare 1 Reactive Plate -vs- an Armour Plate /or/ a Armour Repper... I'm sure you'd agree the comparison changes drastically. I did. You get about a third of the hp, and half of the armor rep, for a huge loss in pg/cpu. The worst part about the reactives is the cpu/pg cost. Like you said, reactives are better for those with only one slot to use, but honestly I'd rather save my pg/cpu for something else and just equip a basic plate or armor repair instead. The best suit to use reactives with is the commando as the skill bonus helps give that module the extra boost...but then again just a single complex plate or repair would work better... reactives need to be half and half for more cpu/pg. For instance, half a basic plate plus half a basic repair = a basic reactive plate
Happy Jack SD Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 2	Posted - 2013.08.24 11:02:00 - [5] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Like you said, reactives are better for those with only one slot to use, but honestly I'd rather save my pg/cpu for something else and just equip a basic plate or armor repair instead. The best suit to use reactives with is the commando as the skill bonus helps give that module the extra boost...but then again just a single complex plate or repair would work better... shrug I'll still use Reactive Plates when I'm building a suit that needs CPU/PG mods and only has 1 low slot left over. I favour Shields over Armour so having some Armour reps and some additional Armour on my loadout is better than more reps but less health or more health but no reps IMO. If I have 2 low slots I obviously fit the plates and repper, but the duality of the module is at least useful in fittings (unlike the comparison of shield recharger -vs- shield energizer).
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1212	Posted - 2013.08.24 11:20:00 - [6] - Quote Reactive plates and ferroscales suck due to their fitting costs.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 5531	Posted - 2013.08.24 11:25:00 - [7] - Quote Great analysis. I sent a tweet to CCP Cmdr Wang and CCP Logibro, hopefully they'll get it to Wolfman.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon 514 2746	Posted - 2013.08.25 13:19:00 - [8] - Quote Excellent post, +1. The problem with reactives and plate/rep comboes is that they're always going to tread on each others toes. There's nothing that can be done within their current role definition that could let them coexist equally with an actual point to using one or the other.
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 60	Posted - 2013.08.25 14:25:00 - [9] - Quote So far the only use I see for reactive plates are for people who only have 1 low powered slot left and don't want to decide between adding a little bit of armor or a little bit of armor repair, like if you have the rest of the spots filled with codebreakers or something. I would think they would be useful to people who wanted some kind of armor repair with no skills in the armor repair section too but, well u can get the same kind of armor repair with a militia repair mod, it's all about the idea of saving you a slot. Someone came up with the idea of having the reactive plates need the armor plating and armor repair skill, I agreed only if the stats would get a boost to go with it, for those who specialize in armor something like that could be unmatched in armor tanking and I don't see why this doesn't happen. If the HP were brought to a little less that the normal plates, and the repair were brought to a little below armor repair modules it could balance out. Could give a player a modest amount of both armor and repair, but never more than just using the dedicated modules.
Komodo Jones Chaotik Serenity 60	Posted - 2013.08.25 14:30:00 - [10] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Reactive plates and ferroscales suck due to their fitting costs. I don't mind the cost too much since I run logistics, and once 1.4 comes out I expect to be doing alot of tanking and cutting costs at the same time. As of right now ferroscale is still useful to me for the lack of speed reduction but when the speed reduction gets cut, 2 enhanced plates will do just fine, or maybe Ill use a complex and 2 reppers, who knows with the buff these things are getting there's tons of new ways to combine them where there wasn't before because it just wasn't worth it.

Cass Caul Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 59	Posted - 2013.08.25 15:43:00 - [11] - Quote do the math for 2 ferroscale plates vs 1 armor plate and a basic kincat :p same thing. Even with the increase in HP, these problems are still the same.
zzZaXxx The Exemplars Top Men. 207	Posted - 2013.08.25 19:11:00 - [12] - Quote Happy Jack SD wrote: I-Shayz-I wrote: Like you said, reactives are better for those with only one slot to use, but honestly I'd rather save my pg/cpu for something else and just equip a basic plate or armor repair instead. The best suit to use reactives with is the commando as the skill bonus helps give that module the extra boost...but then again just a single complex plate or repair would work better... shrug I'll still use Reactive Plates when I'm building a suit that needs CPU/PG mods and only has 1 low slot left over. I favour Shields over Armour so having some Armour reps and some additional Armour on my loadout is better than more reps but less health or more health but no reps IMO. If I have 2 low slots I obviously fit the plates and repper, but the duality of the module is at least useful in fittings (unlike the comparison of shield recharger -vs- shield energizer). On the occasion that you have extra CPU and PG in your last slot it would be viable perhaps, but even then a complex repper would be better since they give so little hp.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2119	Posted - 2013.08.26 09:52:00 - [13] - Quote That's my feeling to some degree. I like the changes made to armor plates, but I still don't think Reactive are particularly useful. If we're talking at the high end cost-wise (complex reactive plates), then the amount reps you'd get isn't particularly notable. You paid out-the-ass fitting-wise for the same reps as a MLT repper. I thought the numbers in the OP were interesting mostly, just because the SP cost and effectiveness were so out of whack. Only having 1 slot seems like a poor justification as well, and the fitting is a large part of that. That's true comparing at even the basic level: Basic Plate: 85hp 2% move penalty Basic/MLT Repper: 2hp/s You more or less beat the COMPLEX reactive on either count stat-wise at the basic level, but you pay 36 CPU 16 PG for the Complex which is a huge hit for the relative gain you're getting from the plate.
Kelrie Nae'bre not in a corporation 147	Posted - 2013.08.27 11:20:00 - [14] - Quote This is even more relevant considering that these would supposedly be "fixed" with the incoming changes. It doesn't really "fix" the issues with Reactive plates.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 1261	Posted - 2013.08.27 11:49:00 - [15] - Quote Complex reactive plates should cost 30CPU/6PG and give 3 HP/s
DeadlyAztec11 Red Star Jr. EoN. 2029	Posted - 2013.08.27 14:39:00 - [16] - Quote Reactive plates are not meant to be used as an alternative to regular armor plates. They are supposed to be used instead of a repper, on mostly non Gallante suits.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 5559	Posted - 2013.08.27 14:42:00 - [17] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Reactive plates are not meant to be used as an alternative to regular armor plates. They are supposed to be used instead of a repper, on mostly non Gallante suits. Why would anyone choose to use a reactive plate instead of a repper? the fitting costs are high, the repair rate is low, and HP gained from using a reactive instead of a repper is very small.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2189	Posted - 2013.08.29 10:59:00 - [18] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: DeadlyAztec11 wrote: Reactive plates are not meant to be used as an alternative to regular armor plates. They are supposed to be used instead of a repper, on mostly non Gallante suits. Why would anyone choose to use a reactive plate instead of a repper? the fitting costs are high, the repair rate is low, and HP gained from using a reactive instead of a repper is very small. It's like the lottery, a penalty on people that can't do math.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 5636	Posted - 2013.08.31 18:04:00 - [19] - Quote Reactives suuuuuuuuuck
gargantuise aaron Sanguine Knights 125	Posted - 2013.08.31 20:55:00 - [20] - Quote I run shield extenders,feroscale and 1 reactive plate on my caldari suit why? Simple I'm not concerned with my armor repair too much sheilds recharge I'm good for a while while I rep my armor very slowly after a close encounter by time my shields are broken again I usually have full armor

gargantuise aaron Sanguine Knights 125	Posted - 2013.08.31 20:57:00 - [21] - Quote Also please do the math on complex plates and reactive, id like to know but don't feel like doing it my self
Meeko Fent Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 749	Posted - 2013.08.31 22:26:00 - [22] - Quote Lower the fitting stays to a normal plate. Ferros too. They already have up quite a bit to have no penalty, or a dual purpose. Bam. Nothing more.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2256	Posted - 2013.09.03 14:55:00 - [23] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Lower the fitting stays to a normal plate. Ferros too. They already have up quite a bit to have no penalty, or a dual purpose. Bam. Nothing more. Altering the fitting is definitely one route, though I can definitely see a place for a higher fitting plate that was more... useful.
Dehlia Metii not in a corporation 59	Posted - 2013.09.05 08:09:00 - [24] - Quote Lots of people buying the reactive plates now?
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2303	Posted - 2013.09.09 07:10:00 - [25] - Quote Dehlia Metii wrote: Lots of people buying the reactive plates now? People are more likely be buying the complex ones, or other regular ones. The speed penalty isn't too bad, and people are dropping like flies against the AA with ARs, etc.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 5915	Posted - 2013.09.13 01:16:00 - [26] - Quote Still UP
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2347	Posted - 2013.09.15 04:57:00 - [27] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Still UP Not sure that this will be looked at in 1.5. Everyone's up in arms about AA and getting gunned down too quickly; the numbers on unpopular low-hp plates probably aren't popping up.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. RISE of LEGION 752	Posted - 2013.09.15 06:35:00 - [28] - Quote That is probably true but it really is something that CCP needs to look at since there is no reason people should be running these right now.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 933	Posted - 2013.09.15 17:34:00 - [29] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: This is with new numbers and bonuses: A) 2 x Complex Reactive 66 hp, 1% speed penalty, 2 hp/s repair @ 36 CPU 16 PG = 132 hp, 2% speed penalty, 4 hp/s @ 72 CPU 32 PG B) 1 Enhanced Plate 117 hp, 3% speed penalty @ 20 CPU 6 PG & 1 Enhanced Armor repairer 3.45 hp/s @ 35 CPU 5 PG = 117 hp, 3% speed penalty, 3.45 hp/s 55 CPU 11 PG A.----vs.----B. 132 vs. 117 hp 2% vs. 3% speed penalty 4 vs. 3.45 hp/s repair 72 vs. 55 CPU 32 vs. 11 PG Results? Reactive plates give you 15 more hp, 1% faster move speed, and 0.15 more repair at a cost of 17 more CPU and 21 more PG. For reference the total PG of a MLT Gallente Frame is 25 PG; so, just the surplus PG needed to operate the plates is about the same as the entire PG allotment on a MLT suit. How popular would a low slot module that gives 15 hp, 0.15 repair, and subtracts 1% from move penalty be at 17 CPU 21 PG I wonder? Sort of... it gets better: SP cost: A) requires Armor Plating 5 Total: 932,760 SP B) requires Armor Plating 3 and Armor Repair Systems 3 cost 205,200 SP x 2 Total: 410,400 SP You get: 15 more hp, 1% faster move speed, and 0.15 more repair at a cost of 17 more CPU and 21 more PG AFTER you spend 522,360 MORE SP. You have to spend over twice as much SP for plates that are notably worse than these ADV modules. Make Reactive Plates do what their name says it does..... "React". Give Reactive plates a range of armor healing speed depending on how much fire they come under. The more damage sustained the harder they rep, when not under fire, their rep speed gradually slows to a stop.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 6000	Posted - 2013.09.17 20:54:00 - [30] - Quote Jathniel wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: This is with new numbers and bonuses: A) 2 x Complex Reactive 66 hp, 1% speed penalty, 2 hp/s repair @ 36 CPU 16 PG = 132 hp, 2% speed penalty, 4 hp/s @ 72 CPU 32 PG B) 1 Enhanced Plate 117 hp, 3% speed penalty @ 20 CPU 6 PG & 1 Enhanced Armor repairer 3.45 hp/s @ 35 CPU 5 PG = 117 hp, 3% speed penalty, 3.45 hp/s 55 CPU 11 PG A.----vs.----B. 132 vs. 117 hp 2% vs. 3% speed penalty 4 vs. 3.45 hp/s repair 72 vs. 55 CPU 32 vs. 11 PG Results? Reactive plates give you 15 more hp, 1% faster move speed, and 0.15 more repair at a cost of 17 more CPU and 21 more PG. For reference the total PG of a MLT Gallente Frame is 25 PG; so, just the surplus PG needed to operate the plates is about the same as the entire PG allotment on a MLT suit. How popular would a low slot module that gives 15 hp, 0.15 repair, and subtracts 1% from move penalty be at 17 CPU 21 PG I wonder? Sort of... it gets better: SP cost: A) requires Armor Plating 5 Total: 932,760 SP B) requires Armor Plating 3 and Armor Repair Systems 3 cost 205,200 SP x 2 Total: 410,400 SP You get: 15 more hp, 1% faster move speed, and 0.15 more repair at a cost of 17 more CPU and 21 more PG AFTER you spend 522,360 MORE SP. You have to spend over twice as much SP for plates that are notably worse than these ADV modules. Make Reactive Plates do what their name says it does..... "React". Give Reactive plates a range of armor healing speed depending on how much fire they come under. The more damage sustained the harder they rep, when not under fire, their rep speed gradually slows to a stop. Interesting idea, I like it.



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