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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe. League of Infamy
902
|
Posted - 2013.08.18 02:37:00 -
[31] - Quote
Seymor Krelborn wrote:Seeth Mensch wrote:I've only seen one post on this, and I'm curious. The general response was "They are not up-to-date with how it oughta be"
Why not charge for it, then? 4 million ISK or 100 AUR for a reset, wiping the slate clean.
I hit those numbers because it seems like 100 AUR is enough to make sure folks pay attention (and CCP gets a little cash), and the 4 million because it's a few game's worth (and enough to make sure you pay attention). You can probably make arguments for up or down, I just want it to be a compelling arguement.
Game flexibility generates revenue--that's been found again and again in other games. I don't know why this would be different.
Whatcha think? your post just makes this topic 1 of HUNDREDS!..... and no.....
Care to give your reasoning behind no respecs? Also have you specialized in hopes of playing at a competitive level or do you have SP all over the place? |
gargantuise aaron
Sanguine Knights
67
|
Posted - 2013.08.18 05:38:00 -
[32] - Quote
THE TRAINSPOTTER wrote:Django Quik wrote:THE TRAINSPOTTER wrote:its because "vets" dont want new people to adapt and defeat them Another lol post - vets have more SP, so they're more likely to want to put it ALL into the FOTM every time it changes, so they can get proto, prof 5 and every associated bonus skill for said FOTM. What will new people gain? A few levels into a weapon or suit? That won't help them beat the FOTM OP vets. i like it when some ppl try to avoid facts and other valid reasons and i like to destroy them ppl with their own ignorance and hate there are new ppl that like Dust514 and play it a lot but have no solid knowledge about SP system , gather and spend SP on most likely useless stuff untill they learn what and how after they learned what and how they come here and ask aboot SP reset or respec hoping that they can undo their n00bish mistakes because now they know how the system works the only ppl against this are the "vets" or "elitists" who hate a challenge and want easy money/kills now if everyone would understand dusts SP well from the beggining we wouldnt have these kind of threads Destroyed NEXT I created an account months ago played a few matches then I lost internet, came back few weeks ago with over 5 mil sp and spent most of it in dropsuit command getting my heavy up and the a.r I now use the scr and a medium suit, I would like to have an sp reset yeah, but I definitely don't want people with more sp than me getting a reset, it would obliterate balance imagine how many enforcer havs and proto suits you'd start seeing,if a vet had a chance to wisely reset his sp it would destroy newberies if I had my my shield skills maxed out and scr prof 5 I would destroy newbs using my low grade equipment. A vet doesn't care about a newb reset thry care about other vets resetting and me I just get tired of proto stomp without vets wisely distributing their sp |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust. Top Men.
1277
|
Posted - 2013.08.18 09:18:00 -
[33] - Quote
There are literally entire corps that run FOTM gear in both pubs and PC. Atm it is mass drivers and LLAVs and all the old calogis have moved over to calassaults since that change. These are the people who would gain most from respecs because no matter what happens, there will always be something more favourable to run than anything else - true balance is impossible.
Permanence and living with your decisions are some of the core principles of Dust514, so getting rid of these by allowing respecs would destroy a key aspect to the game and it would become nothing more than another bland lobby shooter (even more than it already is!).
The only reasonable request for respecs is for the newer players who made poor and uninformed choices early on. With this in mind, perhaps a compromise to the whole respecs issue would be to allow unlimited respecs up to a certain amount and then one final respec (that is announced to the player ingame as being the final one) at that limit. Something like 2 million SP would perhaps be enough for new players to learn the SP ropes. |
Billi Gene
Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic
294
|
Posted - 2013.08.18 10:13:00 -
[34] - Quote
didnt bother readin all the posts.
1 isk is TOO MUCH cost for a SP reset.
if you want an SP reset... delete your character.
If its a Respec-ification you want... well thats a whole different kettle of fish. |
gargantuise aaron
Sanguine Knights
74
|
Posted - 2013.08.18 19:08:00 -
[35] - Quote
The best argument for this is vets could try everything they wanted and then have a full specd core and prof 5 and every other relevant skill with no lost skill points for their mistakes, and they have way more than you do |
Seeth Mensch
Damage Core corp. The Superpowers
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.18 20:34:00 -
[36] - Quote
Wow. I figured I'd get a couple of troll answers. I'll respond as I recall!
1. Yup, I am new. I didn't figure this to be a topic never brought up before, but I didn't see anything, so I asked a question. I hear that what forums are for.
2. NEXT (stupid but funny)
3. Valid reason for no point reset: Allows folks with mass resources to swing those resources more extremely in their favor. However, I'm not sure that the logic holds up: Favor for what? Being more rich? Shooting others down more effectively? They are already doing that, or they wouldn't be wealthy. I ran with some guys last night who stomped the hell out of people...and they weren't running proto stuff.
4. Valid reason for no point reset: LTP, noob. This is a "no." Nobody goes into *any* game knowing all the rules, not making a mistake. Making others suffer as you have is childish, and we are better than that. Well, I try to be, anyway.
I think the best thing I saw was a limited number of times to do the reset, or a massive cooldown on it. I'm good with either of those, I suppose. I think flexibility should be encouraged and fun, not meaninglessly restricted. So what if it is all flavor of the month for a while? Stuff constantly changes. Wealthier folks would have an advantage in shifting around faster, I suppose.
If this skill tree were paired with the opportunity to actually LEARN without having to buy into it, then I'd really be a bit more "eh, whatever," about this, but frankly, it's not. I'm not lamenting my choices, I've only tossed around a few hundred thousand at this point (god, this game has inflation!). It's not like there's a point cap, here---eventually, you can get level 5 in everything. But CCP can make money on this. Maybe that PLEX idea that was commented on--I never played EVE, so it was a little fuzzy to me, but I would love to be able to wheel and deal all these random salvage items that won't see use for months or years.
I just wanna have a good time, ya'll. Thanks for answering. |
THUNDERGROOVE
ZionTCD
148
|
Posted - 2013.08.18 21:03:00 -
[37] - Quote
THE TRAINSPOTTER wrote:its because "vets" dont want new people to adapt and defeat them
Heh, I only have 9.8 million SP and I am entirely against full respecs.
If they change your weapon, fine. You get your SP back from that skill set. If you suddenly decide you want to be a logi then sucks for you, since you are the one who spent the SP so you are the one who should live with it.
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MarasdF Loron
Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack
47
|
Posted - 2013.08.18 21:10:00 -
[38] - Quote
Seeth Mensch wrote:I've only seen one post on this, and I'm curious. The general response was "They are not up-to-date with how it oughta be"
Why not charge for it, then? 4 million ISK or 100 AUR for a reset, wiping the slate clean.
I hit those numbers because it seems like 100 AUR is enough to make sure folks pay attention (and CCP gets a little cash), and the 4 million because it's a few game's worth (and enough to make sure you pay attention). You can probably make arguments for up or down, I just want it to be a compelling arguement.
Game flexibility generates revenue--that's been found again and again in other games. I don't know why this would be different.
Whatcha think? Lol, 5 cents for respec? Even 100.000 AUR would be too little for respec IMO... |
Ren Ratner
Infinite Raiders
66
|
Posted - 2013.08.18 21:22:00 -
[39] - Quote
I'll never support a respec that isn't issued by CCP to everyone on account of a massive skill tree update.
Any amount of $$$ for a respec is too much. Paid respecs make the game Pay-2-Win. They also give CCP incentive to botch updates concerning nerfs/buffs so that each update would be followed by a bunch of paid respecs and more $$$ for CCP. It would foster more hate and mistrust between the players and the developers. |
Seeth Mensch
Damage Core corp. The Superpowers
9
|
Posted - 2013.08.18 21:56:00 -
[40] - Quote
Ren Ratner wrote:I'll never support a respec that isn't issued by CCP to everyone on account of a massive skill tree update.
Any amount of $$$ for a respec is too much. Paid respecs make the game Pay-2-Win. They also give CCP incentive to botch updates concerning nerfs/buffs so that each update would be followed by a bunch of paid respecs and more $$$ for CCP. It would foster more hate and mistrust between the players and the developers.
Hm. That's a pretty good point, actually--the former regarding sloppy work, that is. People would unintentionally reward CCP for bad work (e.g. exploits, poor balance, etc). I don't necessarily agree with the latter part of the argument, but I see how it could happen as a result.
Well, I confess to being totally ok with ISK but not really with AUR, I originally suggested it for no reason other than equanimity. I want CCP to give us this!
Thundergroove mentioned the SP cap--I didn't really see a reason for it, but it leads to this idea:
Once a month, for whatever amount of ISK, you can undo a tree from beginning to end.
Discovered you hate your assault suit? Cool, you have enough points to get a different suit. Lasers suck? OK, now you have that all back again. Specced into tanks? Now you can get your equipment up instead.
This requires consideration on the player for what they are trying out, and you can't always just do the combo du jour. It seems like the main argument is to keep people from having sweeping shifts--I don't know that I agree with it, I think being able to do full resets is just fine. I'm not convinced that it would be terrible for people to be able to play the way they want |
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gargantuise aaron
Sanguine Knights
74
|
Posted - 2013.08.18 22:24:00 -
[41] - Quote
Here's another reason your idea wont work, it's either too cheap or its p2w |
Midas Fool
Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY
170
|
Posted - 2013.08.18 22:35:00 -
[42] - Quote
Seeth Mensch wrote:Once a month, for whatever amount of ISK, you can undo a tree from beginning to end.
Discovered you hate your assault suit? Cool, you have enough points to get a different suit. Lasers suck? OK, now you have that all back again. Specced into tanks? Now you can get your equipment up instead.
Realized you're losing some firefights? Spec into FoTM! Your decisions having meaning? Nonsense. Be the best. |
Django Quik
Dust2Dust. Top Men.
1290
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 16:50:00 -
[43] - Quote
Seeth, you've missed a massive point against respecs here - permenancy. This is a key principle in this game that is mentioned in almost every dev/press interview that CCP has ever given. If you take away the permanancy of your choices, your decisions become meaningless and a core element of the game has to be completely thrown out.
If you want flexibility to try out different gear, you have to make that decision and spread your SP out across various things. If you want to be badass at something, you have to put all your SP into that one thing. You can't have it both ways and that is why it is important that your choices matter.
Now the whole thing about newer players making mistakes is a valid concern but offering respecs is not the best solution to this problem - the better answer is to make the NPE better, add more information, have more helpful tutorials and make the SP system easier to understand. Make militia variants of every weapon, suit and equipment, so that players can test out everything at a low level to see whether they like the feel of it. Make a MLT only game mode, so that testing this stuff can be done without the hazard of being proto-stomped every game.
People act like respecs will suddenly fix so many problems with this game but that is just tunnel vision speaking; they will cause more problems than they solve. |
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star. EoN.
908
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 16:57:00 -
[44] - Quote
FOTM players are to blame
The Tac was OP, then it got fixed, FOTM spec out of it and into the next thing
Cal Logi was OP, then it got fixed, FOTM spec out of that and into the next thing
Rinse and repeat |
Not Sentient Archon
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
50
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 17:01:00 -
[45] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:THE TRAINSPOTTER wrote:its because "vets" dont want new people to adapt and defeat them Oh there have been plenty of vets that have made mistakes. Also 12 million sp is all it takes to catch up to any vet.
Bullshit. At over 21 million its still not enough for me. Dotn give clueless guys ideas! |
DUST Fiend
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
5781
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 17:04:00 -
[46] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:THE TRAINSPOTTER wrote:its because "vets" dont want new people to adapt and defeat them Oh there have been plenty of vets that have made mistakes. Also 12 million sp is all it takes to catch up to any vet. 12 million that you have to constantly sit on since you can't branch out at all unless you want to be a pub star and nothing else.
So again, the best way to play DUST is to not, since you literally have to play for weeks at a time to gain tiny boosts to finally get you into cool gear.
Fun factor. That's why respecs are in FPS games with skills.
Golly gee who'd a thunk it. |
Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY
3164
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 17:20:00 -
[47] - Quote
Seeth Mensch wrote:I've only seen one post on this, and I'm curious. The general response was "They are not up-to-date with how it oughta be"
Why not charge for it, then? 4 million ISK or 100 AUR for a reset, wiping the slate clean.
I hit those numbers because it seems like 100 AUR is enough to make sure folks pay attention (and CCP gets a little cash), and the 4 million because it's a few game's worth (and enough to make sure you pay attention). You can probably make arguments for up or down, I just want it to be a compelling arguement.
Game flexibility generates revenue--that's been found again and again in other games. I don't know why this would be different.
Whatcha think? Resets for AURUM are pay-to-win. Resets for ISK ensure a never ending cycle of Flavor-of-the-Month crap.
Better to offer respecs as the assets we should have had at launch come in, and then never do them again after that point. |
low genius
the sound of freedom Renegade Alliance
323
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 17:20:00 -
[48] - Quote
Seeth Mensch wrote:I've only seen one post on this, and I'm curious. The general response was "They are not up-to-date with how it oughta be"
Why not charge for it, then? 4 million ISK or 100 AUR for a reset, wiping the slate clean.
I hit those numbers because it seems like 100 AUR is enough to make sure folks pay attention (and CCP gets a little cash), and the 4 million because it's a few game's worth (and enough to make sure you pay attention). You can probably make arguments for up or down, I just want it to be a compelling arguement.
Game flexibility generates revenue--that's been found again and again in other games. I don't know why this would be different.
Whatcha think?
sp resets would take the weight away from the decisions you make when you skill your characters. you could skill into things knowing "well, i'll just skill out of it when they nerf it" this is contrary to the new eden mindset. what you do here is real, and your decisions have consequences. |
Deskalkulos Ildigan
CrimeWave Syndicate
131
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 17:41:00 -
[49] - Quote
can't agree more with low genius. What point is there in skilling and planning your character if you say "whoops wrong skill, let me throw ingame/premium currency at the devs for a respec." I am actually a tad puzzled how it comes that people are complaining so much about it. Can't remember any other game with online progression system where people wanted something like this. Must be playing the wrong (or maybe right?) games... |
gargantuise aaron
Sanguine Knights
82
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 17:46:00 -
[50] - Quote
And one more reason you don't get to respec when you want. Your not the ones making the game |
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Ren Ratner
Infinite Raiders
69
|
Posted - 2013.08.19 20:38:00 -
[51] - Quote
One thing people need to realize is that you don't NEED a ton of SP to be good at this game. Skilled players can easily break 1000 WP per game with a MLT or STD fitting. ADV doesn't take much effort to get either. You should know that you don't like a suit or weapon before you get it to proto level. |
Seeth Mensch
Damage Core corp. The Superpowers
10
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 15:45:00 -
[52] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Seeth, you've missed a massive point against respecs here - permenancy. This is a key principle in this game that is mentioned in almost every dev/press interview that CCP has ever given. If you take away the permanancy of your choices, your decisions become meaningless and a core element of the game has to be completely thrown out.
If you want flexibility to try out different gear, you have to make that decision and spread your SP out across various things. If you want to be badass at something, you have to put all your SP into that one thing. You can't have it both ways and that is why it is important that your choices matter.
Now the whole thing about newer players making mistakes is a valid concern but offering respecs is not the best solution to this problem - the better answer is to make the NPE better, add more information, have more helpful tutorials and make the SP system easier to understand. Make militia variants of every weapon, suit and equipment, so that players can test out everything at a low level to see whether they like the feel of it. Make a MLT only game mode, so that testing this stuff can be done without the hazard of being proto-stomped every game.
People act like respecs will suddenly fix so many problems with this game but that is just tunnel vision speaking; they will cause more problems than they solve.
This is very well put. The problem is you *can* have it both ways, because the skill tree is only limited by time. After a month of play, I'm spread out some (yes, a few things weren't good choices, but I'm really not bothered by that). However, your solutions you have mentioned in your last paragraph are excellent, and +1 for that alone. Of course I'd rather be specialized and do well in something. If I/we had the chance to discover that speccing into LAVs was a poor choice at the start, I wouldn't feel robbed (that wasn't me, btw!). Opportunity to try things out without either speccing into it or having to buy it with AUR is what should make my request irrelevant. I don't want respecs either, if I have the chance to make an informed decision first! |
Washlee
Pure Innocence. EoN.
254
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 15:46:00 -
[53] - Quote
Because when something gets nerfed. They want them to deal with the consequences >:D |
demonkiller 12
Seraphim Auxiliaries
112
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 16:06:00 -
[54] - Quote
100,000 AURUM ($50USD) reset or 250-500mil ISK reset available once every 6 months, this is totally fine i dont care if daddys pockets are deep this is still going to be a hit, and if youre a legit player then 250-500 mil is perfectly reasonable seeing as a person can make between 10-30 mil a day (if youre not a dumbass running proto dying 10x a match) |
Rynoceros
Rise Of Old Dudes
527
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 16:53:00 -
[55] - Quote
The lack of ISK purchasable boosters makes this game P2W.
Not respecs that would highlight the FotM.
Done correctly: 10,000,000 ISK or 5,000 Aurum Available once every 720 hours.
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low genius
The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance
332
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 17:16:00 -
[56] - Quote
Ren Ratner wrote:One thing people need to realize is that you don't NEED a ton of SP to be good at this game. Skilled players can easily break 1000 WP per game with a MLT or STD fitting. ADV doesn't take much effort to get either. You should know that you don't like a suit or weapon before you get it to proto level.
this. |
Jade Hasegawa
Intrepidus XI EoN.
55
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 17:20:00 -
[57] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:THE TRAINSPOTTER wrote:its because "vets" dont want new people to adapt and defeat them Oh there have been plenty of vets that have made mistakes. Also 12 million sp is all it takes to catch up to any vet. at 190K SP per week that a few months while the proto bears FOTM through something else and the game loses more players |
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