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D legendary hero
THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND
613
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Posted - 2013.08.12 01:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
I just want to know. I want ot stick with this game. but, i really want to know if something is going to be done ...Anything to fix ARs OR buff everything else for balance.
Mint chip, Logi bro, eterni, Foxfour.... anyone. |
Vitharr Foebane
Blood Money Mercenaries
3
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 02:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
you realize ccp wants ARs to be jack of all trades but a master of all said trades. apparently AR scrubs can have their cake and eat it too... just the nature of the beast |
Summ Dude
Militaires-Sans-Frontieres
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 03:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
How exactly are AR's OP? I'm a heavy, so I never use em really. But going against them a lot, I don't really see it. I would say maybe just knock the effective range down a bit (probably excluding the TAR); they seem to shred me just a little bit too quickly at some crazy ranges. |
SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion
178
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 03:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
Summ Dude wrote:How exactly are AR's OP? I'm a heavy, so I never use em really. But going against them a lot, I don't really see it. I would say maybe just knock the effective range down a bit (probably excluding the TAR); they seem to shred me just a little bit too quickly at some crazy ranges.
ARs are fine at short range, but their ADS dispersion and kick is too low, which extends their effective range further than a scrambler rifle (scrams have a higher optimal range, but the kick and semi-auto fire lowers the DPS compared to the constant accurate stream of plasma coming from a scoped AR). |
Meeko Fent
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
558
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Posted - 2013.08.12 03:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
SponkSponkSponk wrote:Summ Dude wrote:How exactly are AR's OP? I'm a heavy, so I never use em really. But going against them a lot, I don't really see it. I would say maybe just knock the effective range down a bit (probably excluding the TAR); they seem to shred me just a little bit too quickly at some crazy ranges. ARs are fine at short range, but their ADS dispersion and kick is too low, which extends their effective range further than a scrambler rifle (scrams have a higher optimal range, but the kick and semi-auto fire lowers the DPS compared to the constant accurate stream of plasma coming from a scoped AR). My thoughts as well.
Increase the rate of falloff on the thing. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Top Men.
1087
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 03:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
I don't use the AR.
I find the AR rant threads to be stupid.
the current AR is in a decent place right now. it should be the baseline, average weapon, around which the rest of the weapons are balanced by role.
it kills fast, but not overpoweringly so.
the whining is achieving critical mass. |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
1575
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 03:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:I don't use the AR.
I find the AR rant threads to be stupid.
the current AR is in a decent place right now. it should be the baseline, average weapon, around which the rest of the weapons are balanced by role.
it kills fast, but not overpoweringly so.
the whining is achieving critical mass.
The current AR is stupidly overused due to it being standard, but more importantly, OP.
Currently, in pubs, the AR kills almost as much as 11 of the available 14 weapons in the game combined.
|
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Top Men.
1087
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 03:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
so does the assault rifle in real life.
90% of gamers prefer assault rifle gameplay. Nerfing it because 90% of gamers prefer vanilla play isn't a justification, it's being an idiot.
if 90% of players use ARs, then it stands to reason that 90% of the kills will come from assault rifles.
I quote from the book of Goon 69:96
"And thus did Breakin Stuff Look down from on High and speaketh his word: DUH! For by math, shall ye be saved." |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis Covert Intervention
1443
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 04:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:so does the assault rifle in real life.
90% of gamers prefer assault rifle gameplay. Nerfing it because 90% of gamers prefer vanilla play isn't a justification, it's being an idiot.
if 90% of players use ARs, then it stands to reason that 90% of the kills will come from assault rifles.
I quote from the book of Goon 69:96
"And thus did Breakin Stuff Look down from on High and speaketh his word: DUH! For by math, shall ye be saved." Yes it is true that with a higher use level will come a higher total volume of kills and further that such a volume could be misunderstood to be a balance issue. It is also true that a large portion of the player base used the TAR and that the number of users certainly contributed to the volume of its kills.... it was also brokenly OP.
An assessment of this type needs to consider per capita kills per weapon, and since we're not in a liner system it also needs to include ratio of kills per weapon vs each given alternate weapon with a ratio established for the optimal range of each weapon under consideration.
If it gets 90% of the kills because it's used by 90% of the players (were we living in a world where all players had equal skill and all characters had equal SP) then that would be one thing, but if it's winning 90% of the time when matched against weapons of another type then that's something else.
@Thread if anyone wants to see more of my commentary on actual weapon balance as opposed to methods of assessing it then feel free to look here. Replies which treat my post in this thread as a direct assessment pro or neg of AR balance will likely be redirected to the above link.
Cheers, Cross
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Buster Friently
Rosen Association
1576
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 04:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:so does the assault rifle in real life.
90% of gamers prefer assault rifle gameplay. Nerfing it because 90% of gamers prefer vanilla play isn't a justification, it's being an idiot.
if 90% of players use ARs, then it stands to reason that 90% of the kills will come from assault rifles.
I quote from the book of Goon 69:96
"And thus did Breakin Stuff Look down from on High and speaketh his word: DUH! For by math, shall ye be saved." Yes it is true that with a higher use level will come a higher total volume of kills and further that such a volume could be misunderstood to be a balance issue. It is also true that a large portion of the player base used the TAR and that the number of users certainly contributed to the volume of its kills.... it was also brokenly OP. An assessment of this type needs to consider per capita kills per weapon, and since we're not in a liner system it also needs to include ratio of kills per weapon vs each given alternate weapon with a ratio established for the optimal range of each weapon under consideration. If it gets 90% of the kills because it's used by 90% of the players (were we living in a world where all players had equal skill and all characters had equal SP) then that would be one thing, but if it's winning 90% of the time when matched against weapons of another type then that's something else. @Thread if anyone wants to see more of my commentary on actual weapon balance as opposed to methods of assessing it then feel free to look here. Replies which treat my post in this thread as a direct assessment pro or neg of AR balance will likely be redirected to the above link. Cheers, Cross
The weapon is overused. There's no two ways about it. It's not a matter of comfort, it's a matter of preserving diversity. |
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Meeko Fent
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
562
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 05:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:I don't use the AR.
I find the AR rant threads to be stupid.
the current AR is in a decent place right now. it should be the baseline, average weapon, around which the rest of the weapons are balanced by role.
it kills fast, but not overpoweringly so.
the whining is achieving critical mass. It drops well fit STD suits in less then one second, up to and easily past, 45 meters.
I'm fine with that. Gallante weapons should run the show when it comes to CQC. But, it manages to deal great damage out to ScR range, and deals incidental damage at sniper range, 200 m.
My rework of the GAR, is this
-New absolute range, 168 (Current Effective Range) -New Effective Range, 120 -The rest of the stats are kept the same.
That all I want.
I think lowering the DPS is wrong, the other guns just need severe buffing, (Tighten HMG dispersion slightly, 2-3 more pellets per shot+fixed aiming and HD for the shotty, etc, etc, etc...)
I don't think I'm asking too much of the AR, it will remain the staple of Short to Mid range engagements, and preferred for General purpose combat, equally efficient at attacking and defending.
Do I sound crazy now? |
Cosgar
ParagonX
4111
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 05:42:00 -
[12] - Quote
How to have fun in Dust 514: Step 1. Play as a Caldari assault with an AR. Step 2. Cry for everything that isn't a Caldari assault with an AR to be nerfed. Step 3. ???? Step 4. Profit! |
Vitharr Foebane
Blood Money Mercenaries
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 05:42:00 -
[13] - Quote
Summ Dude wrote:How exactly are AR's OP? I'm a heavy, so I never use em really. But going against them a lot, I don't really see it. I would say maybe just knock the effective range down a bit (probably excluding the TAR); they seem to shred me just a little bit too quickly at some crazy ranges. a militia AR has the potential to kill a heavy in less than 3 seconds. that is utter bs |
Meeko Fent
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
562
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 05:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:How to have fun in Dust 514: Step 1. Play as a Caldari assault with an AR. Step 2. Cry for everything that isn't a Caldari assault with an AR to be nerfed. Step 3. ???? Step 4. Profit! Yeah, we know...
I'm only using this character as a forumer right now.
Got a minmatar tanker running Gal HAVs, just waiting for fricking matchmaking. |
Minor Treat
The Enclave Syndicate Dark Taboo
41
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 07:13:00 -
[15] - Quote
D legendary hero wrote:I just want to know. I want ot stick with this game. but, i really want to know if something is going to be done ...Anything to fix ARs OR buff everything else for balance.
Mint chip, Logi bro, eterni, Foxfour.... anyone. nerfing the AR is not necessary but what is necessary in real recoil. recoil for varies weapons are nearly non exsistent but until they increase recoil for smg, scrambler rifle, and other automatics than i think introducing AR recoil would do more harm than good to the game.. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Top Men.
1089
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 07:13:00 -
[16] - Quote
Play caldari logi is how to have fun?
Cripes! Why didn't you tell me I'm not having fun playing the most obnoxious fatty in DUST history???
How was I to know my HMG was less optimally fun? Does my forge gun suffer this deficiency?
You bring anecdotal evidence, and no hard facts. nothing is OP because you assert that it is OP.
Something is OP if numbers and facts prove it.
All I see here is that "the assault rifle beats everything." <---This would be an example of anecdotal evidence.
All nerf threads on the DUST forums save for a few who bring math to the party are anecdotal, and thusly worthless from a game balance standpoint. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Top Men.
1089
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 07:16:00 -
[17] - Quote
Your second mistake is listening to D Legendary Hero.
He doesn't have a freaking clue what he's talking about.
He never does. All he does is run around like chicken little yelling "the Sky is falling!"
I have yet to hear a useful, and credible argument from his corner that didn't involve him shouting more loudly than the opposition, and he never brings evidence to the party. |
Zyrus Amalomyn
Militaires-Sans-Frontieres
242
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 07:17:00 -
[18] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:I don't use the AR.
I find the AR rant threads to be stupid.
the current AR is in a decent place right now. it should be the baseline, average weapon, around which the rest of the weapons are balanced by role.
it kills fast, but not overpoweringly so.
the whining is achieving critical mass. The current AR is stupidly overused due to it being standard, but more importantly, OP. Currently, in pubs, the AR kills almost as much as 11 of the available 14 weapons in the game combined.
Because ARs are useful and familiar and easy to pickup. If you want an OP weapon, try the high end forge guns. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Top Men.
1089
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 07:24:00 -
[19] - Quote
Zyrus Amalomyn wrote: Because ARs are useful and familiar and easy to pickup. If you want an OP weapon, try the high end forge guns.
go pick up a high end forge gun and try it out. and stop smoking crack while we're on the topic. |
Rusty Shallows
Black Jackals
251
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 07:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
Zyrus Amalomyn wrote:Buster Friently wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:I don't use the AR.
I find the AR rant threads to be stupid.
the current AR is in a decent place right now. it should be the baseline, average weapon, around which the rest of the weapons are balanced by role.
it kills fast, but not overpoweringly so.
the whining is achieving critical mass. The current AR is stupidly overused due to it being standard, but more importantly, OP. Currently, in pubs, the AR kills almost as much as 11 of the available 14 weapons in the game combined. Because ARs are useful and familiar and easy to pickup. If you want an OP weapon, try the high end forge guns. Hey Cosgar, he's on step two of your Making Bank in Dust 514 program. |
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Rusty Shallows
Black Jackals
252
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 07:33:00 -
[21] - Quote
D legendary hero wrote:I just want to know. I want ot stick with this game. but, i really want to know if something is going to be done ...Anything to fix ARs OR buff everything else for balance.
Mint chip, Logi bro, eterni, Foxfour.... anyone. I'm still living the "Anti-Nerf" life, even when it includes *choke* The Golden Bullet Hose that we call ARs. |
D legendary hero
THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND
614
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 07:49:00 -
[22] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:so does the assault rifle in real life.
this is in fact wrong. From the rifles invention to now it has never been the source of more death in any conflit than every other weapon combined. the conquistadores used black plague as a WMD. in WW1 Gattling guns/machine guns killed more people than ARs (still rilfes, but reloadied chamber themselves. in WW2 Bombs killed more people than ARs, HMGs killed more people than ARs. and LMGs came into heavy use, killing more people than ARs.
ever since, every other conflit and war world wide the AR has never been the most potent weapon on the battle filed. It is the most standard weapon, but in fact LMGs have consistently since their inseption been more potent than ARs.
Many LMGs are just ARs with extended clips and heavier barrels. (if this were applied to DUST my HMG would be doing 34 damage per shot at 2000 RPM. but, balance dictats that it can't be that powerful..lol).
Many simple, early snipers are ARs with longer barrels, and a sight (if applied to dust, a sniper would have 34 damage per shot...lol)
ARs in RL over heat (yes sustained fire will damage your barrel and warp/distort your barrel thus ruining accurcy, the melting could cause a backfire. so if applied to dust, i can only imagine what super heated plasma will do to your barrel.) so they are fired in bursts.
ARs in RL jam when put in water, sand, mudd, etc.
ARs in RL normally have 30 round magazines.
ARs in RL are horrible for CQB due to their bulky designed and that they can easily snag on items indoors (except the recent M4 carbine with a shorter barrel and the same accurcy as an M16.)
Quote: 90% of gamers prefer assault rifle gameplay. Nerfing it because 90% of gamers prefer vanilla play isn't a justification, it's being an idiot.
a good portion of players PREFERED to run flaylocks. Well, about roughly 35% of players ran flaylocks as side arms, 20% had it proto. and less than 1% ran two flaylocks. People complained and it was nerfed. so, by your own definition. your an idiot.
Quote: if 90% of players use ARs, then it stands to reason that 90% of the kills will come from assault rifles.
That doesn't means it s not OP. 90% of players ran TAcs when it was OP. and 90% of kills came from them. and TAC was op.
I quote from the book of Proverbs 14:24 "...the foolishness of the stupid ones is foolishness."
So i suggest you do this proverbs 17:28 "even anyone foolish, when keeping silent, will be regarded as wise; anyone closing up his lips as having understanding"
"And thus did Breakin Stuff Look down from on High and speaketh his word: DUH! For by math, shall ye be saved."[/quote]
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D legendary hero
THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND
614
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 08:11:00 -
[23] - Quote
Summ Dude wrote:How exactly are AR's OP? I'm a heavy, so I never use em really. But going against them a lot, I don't really see it. I would say maybe just knock the effective range down a bit (probably excluding the TAR); they seem to shred me just a little bit too quickly at some crazy ranges.
i am a heavy too. imma let you in on a secret.
a fully decked out proto heavy, (i posted this in another thread) for proto BASIC or SENTINEL willhave 1580 ehp with, lvl 5 shields and armor upgrades, and lvl 5 shield and armor plates/extenders efficacies.
1580 ehp.
A milita AR, with 0 SP put in it, with no damage mods, without including the bonus 10% they gave all weapons (expect MD, flaylocks which all got nerfed), without proficienct, and without headshots can kill you in 3.7 seconds.
yes 1580ehp / 425 hp per second = 3.717 seconds.
so, if a noob fresh out the academy shoots you in the foot, in 3.7 seconds your dead. but wait there is more how many bullets do youthink it would take them?
1580 ehp/ 34hp per shot = 46 shots.
brilliant, a milita AR has 48. A STD has 60. So, thats 12 extra shots, do you know how much damage 12 extra shots can do? 408 to 425 (there were some decimals i missed).
thats enough to kill a proto scout in .8 seconds.
so, so far we killed a proto heavy and a proto scout with a STD AR, but how long does it take them to reload? 3 seconds, (faster than an SMG) or 2.5 seconds with reload cancel.
now remember this 425, doesn't include the 10% bonus they gave every weapon. here are just a sample of its raw power.
with 10% = 467 <<< actual dps with 15% proficiency = 537 <<<< wow with 1 enhanced damage mod, no proficiency = 490 with 1 enhanced damage mod and proficiency = 560 <<<< proto heavy dead in 2.8 seconds with 1 complex mod and proficiency = 584 <<<< proto heavy dead in 37 shots. thats 23 bullets left over with 2 complex and proficiency = 628 <<<< MY ******* GODs in an HMG!
628 dps is enough to finish a proto heavy in 2.5 secinds. with a clip of 60 bullets, you can finish of two proto heavies in 1 clip!!!!!!! (almost two proto heavies; definately an entire squad)
and don't
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ChromeBreaker
SVER True Blood
1007
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 08:13:00 -
[24] - Quote
D legendary hero wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:so does the assault rifle in real life. this is in fact wrong. From the rifles invention to now it has never been the source of more death in any conflit than every other weapon combined. the conquistadores used black plague as a WMD. in WW1 Gattling guns/machine guns killed more people than ARs (still rilfes, but reloadied chamber themselves. in WW2 Bombs killed more people than ARs, HMGs killed more people than ARs. and LMGs came into heavy use, killing more people than ARs. ever since, every other conflit and war world wide the AR has never been the most potent weapon on the battle filed. It is the most standard weapon, but in fact LMGs have consistently since their inseption been more potent than ARs. Many LMGs are just ARs with extended clips and heavier barrels. (if this were applied to DUST my HMG would be doing 34 damage per shot at 2000 RPM. but, balance dictats that it can't be that powerful..lol). Many simple, early snipers are ARs with longer barrels, and a sight (if applied to dust, a sniper would have 34 damage per shot...lol) ARs in RL over heat (yes sustained fire will damage your barrel and warp/distort your barrel thus ruining accurcy, the melting could cause a backfire. so if applied to dust, i can only imagine what super heated plasma will do to your barrel.) so they are fired in bursts. ARs in RL jam when put in water, sand, mudd, etc. ARs in RL normally have 30 round magazines. ARs in RL are horrible for CQB due to their bulky designed and that they can easily snag on items indoors (except the recent M4 carbine with a shorter barrel and the same accurcy as an M16.) Quote: 90% of gamers prefer assault rifle gameplay. Nerfing it because 90% of gamers prefer vanilla play isn't a justification, it's being an idiot.
a good portion of players PREFERED to run flaylocks. Well, about roughly 35% of players ran flaylocks as side arms, 20% had it proto. and less than 1% ran two flaylocks. People complained and it was nerfed. so, by your own definition. your an idiot. Quote: if 90% of players use ARs, then it stands to reason that 90% of the kills will come from assault rifles.
That doesn't means it s not OP. 90% of players ran TAcs when it was OP. and 90% of kills came from them. and TAC was op. I quote from the book of Proverbs 14:24 "...the foolishness of the stupid ones is foolishness." So i suggest you do this proverbs 17:28 "even anyone foolish, when keeping silent, will be regarded as wise; anyone closing up his lips as having understanding" "And thus did Breakin Stuff Look down from on High and speaketh his word: DUH! For by math, shall ye be saved." [/quote]
Instead of just going through each point...
3rd party explanation
Fleylocks were in a whole other league and you know it.
AR might have a little too much range, and a be a little too accurate at range, but tbh no need for a nerf hammer. |
D legendary hero
THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND
614
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 08:17:00 -
[25] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Play caldari logi is how to have fun?
Cripes! Why didn't you tell me I'm not having fun playing the most obnoxious fatty in DUST history???
How was I to know my HMG was less optimally fun? Does my forge gun suffer this deficiency?
You bring anecdotal evidence, and no hard facts. nothing is OP because you assert that it is OP.
Something is OP if numbers and facts prove it.
All I see here is that "the assault rifle beats everything." <---This would be an example of anecdotal evidence.
All nerf threads on the DUST forums save for a few who bring math to the party are anecdotal, and thusly worthless from a game balance standpoint.
And yet 1. this is the same evidence people brought with regards the Flaylocks, MD, HMGs, LAZERs, etc and they were subsequently nerfed
And 2. I have numbers and math littered across almost every post i make on this god damn forum and no one responds to it, because it is irrefutable.
seriously? people cries "flaylocks are OP" and i can't even rememebr a single reason why they said so. in fact 90% of their reasons for saying it was OP, were actually things the weapon was DESIGNED for. So, not only was it unnessesary, they effetively nerfed a gun that was in fact perfectly balanced.
Where as everyone profess the AR to be balanced and yet, it out guns HMGs, and Shotguns in their niches. Please explain, why an AR has more damage per second than a Tank turret? |
D legendary hero
THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND
614
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 08:20:00 -
[26] - Quote
[=chrome breaker] Fleylocks were in a whole other league and you know it. [/quote]
yeah they were in the league of actually balanced guns. CCP wolfmans lame excuss for the nerf was and i quote Quote: "in the hands of skilled players it proved to be as effective as primary weapons"
you and i know this is total bullshit. if it is skilled hands that do it. its not OP. especially since it only worked in its niche.
btw, nice link...lololz. convincing points
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ChromeBreaker
SVER True Blood
1008
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 08:23:00 -
[27] - Quote
D legendary hero wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Play caldari logi is how to have fun?
Cripes! Why didn't you tell me I'm not having fun playing the most obnoxious fatty in DUST history???
How was I to know my HMG was less optimally fun? Does my forge gun suffer this deficiency?
You bring anecdotal evidence, and no hard facts. nothing is OP because you assert that it is OP.
Something is OP if numbers and facts prove it.
All I see here is that "the assault rifle beats everything." <---This would be an example of anecdotal evidence.
All nerf threads on the DUST forums save for a few who bring math to the party are anecdotal, and thusly worthless from a game balance standpoint. And yet 1. this is the same evidence people brought with regards the Flaylocks, MD, HMGs, LAZERs, etc and they were subsequently nerfed And 2. I have numbers and math littered across almost every post i make on this god damn forum and no one responds to it, because it is irrefutable. seriously? people cries "flaylocks are OP" and i can't even rememebr a single reason why they said so. in fact 90% of their reasons for saying it was OP, were actually things the weapon was DESIGNED for. So, not only was it unnessesary, they effetively nerfed a gun that was in fact perfectly balanced. Where as everyone profess the AR to be balanced and yet, it out guns HMGs, and Shotguns in their niches. Please explain, why an AR has more damage per second than a Tank turret?
Heres my maths....
The FleyLock could kill any suit other than a heavy (stupid cal logi) in 3 shots. Think thats quite simple.
As for the link, its an example... the AK47 could pretty much be fired underwater after being burried in sand. This is a whole other universe, quoting real life and that type of stuf for a GAME is pointless.
If you think the FleyLock was balanced... you might as well ask for HMG with 34dmg... wait... |
Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION
94
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 08:29:00 -
[28] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:so does the assault rifle in real life.
90% of gamers prefer assault rifle gameplay. Nerfing it because 90% of gamers prefer vanilla play isn't a justification, it's being an idiot.
if 90% of players use ARs, then it stands to reason that 90% of the kills will come from assault rifles.
I quote from the book of Goon 69:96
"And thus did Breakin Stuff Look down from on High and speaketh his word: DUH! For by math, shall ye be saved." Yes it is true that with a higher use level will come a higher total volume of kills and further that such a volume could be misunderstood to be a balance issue. It is also true that a large portion of the player base used the TAR and that the number of users certainly contributed to the volume of its kills.... it was also brokenly OP. An assessment of this type needs to consider per capita kills per weapon, and since we're not in a liner system it also needs to include ratio of kills per weapon vs each given alternate weapon with a ratio established for the optimal range of each weapon under consideration. If it gets 90% of the kills because it's used by 90% of the players (were we living in a world where all players had equal skill and all characters had equal SP) then that would be one thing, but if it's winning 90% of the time when matched against weapons of another type then that's something else. @Thread if anyone wants to see more of my commentary on actual weapon balance as opposed to methods of assessing it then feel free to look here. Replies which treat my post in this thread as a direct assessment pro or neg of AR balance will likely be redirected to the above link. Cheers, Cross The weapon is overused. There's no two ways about it. It's not a matter of comfort, it's a matter of preserving diversity.
According to your statement the MD need to be nerfed as well as this weapon is heavily overused in PC and most believe that this is the place to look for balance.
Apart from that I get barely killed by ARs in pubs not more than from sniper rifles, MDs and HMG. Even the SR gets a comeback...
The AR is used that much becasue there is a (well not onlyy one) BPO and its in the Starter fits so its logically that someone specs into that weapon. And with the slow skill progress most will stick with thier initial choice quite some time, especially when this choice feels familiar.
Remove the AR from starter fits and or give more weapon BPOs and than you will see more variety.
The AR is not OP in fact the AScR is much better rigt from the start. The damage falloff of the AR is much harcher than the fallof of the AScR. The only advantage the AR has over the AScR it benefits from two skills wheras the AScR gets nothing from skills. And to get there you have to spent 1.5 mil SP...
The only thing that is needed is the correct dmage and range profile (short Range and High DPS) and maybe a rename so not everyone will stick with the assault rifle.
My ideal Plasma Rifle (or Blaster Rifle) would look something like this: opt Range up to 30m eff. Range up to 45m Damge 50 RoF 580 to 600 Clip Size 40 to 45
That would give the AR its niche and would differentiate it from the AScR... |
D legendary hero
THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND
614
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Posted - 2013.08.12 08:30:00 -
[29] - Quote
ChromeBreaker wrote:D legendary hero wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Play caldari logi is how to have fun?
Cripes! Why didn't you tell me I'm not having fun playing the most obnoxious fatty in DUST history???
How was I to know my HMG was less optimally fun? Does my forge gun suffer this deficiency?
You bring anecdotal evidence, and no hard facts. nothing is OP because you assert that it is OP.
Something is OP if numbers and facts prove it.
All I see here is that "the assault rifle beats everything." <---This would be an example of anecdotal evidence.
All nerf threads on the DUST forums save for a few who bring math to the party are anecdotal, and thusly worthless from a game balance standpoint. And yet 1. this is the same evidence people brought with regards the Flaylocks, MD, HMGs, LAZERs, etc and they were subsequently nerfed And 2. I have numbers and math littered across almost every post i make on this god damn forum and no one responds to it, because it is irrefutable. seriously? people cries "flaylocks are OP" and i can't even rememebr a single reason why they said so. in fact 90% of their reasons for saying it was OP, were actually things the weapon was DESIGNED for. So, not only was it unnessesary, they effetively nerfed a gun that was in fact perfectly balanced. Where as everyone profess the AR to be balanced and yet, it out guns HMGs, and Shotguns in their niches. Please explain, why an AR has more damage per second than a Tank turret? Heres my maths.... The FleyLock could kill any suit other than a heavy (stupid cal logi) in 3 shots. Think thats quite simple. yeah, when at PROTO LVL, at 1 second to .8 seconds per shot. so the clip would empty in anywhere between 3 seconds to 2.4 seconds to unload. in that clip only if the enemy were in close range and you get hits with in 1m of your opponent would you have a decent effect on them. that takes upto 1.2 million SP to get maxed to tht effective lvl.
Milita AR takes 0 SP or for a STD AR if you put 12,000 SP into it, can kill a proto Heavy with max skills in tanking, with 1580 ehp in 3 seconds. and still have rounds to spare. explain that away.
Heavy suits in the description say they were designed to "withstand concentrated small arms fire", last time i checked ARs are considered small arms. |
D legendary hero
THE WARRIORS OF LEGEND
614
|
Posted - 2013.08.12 08:35:00 -
[30] - Quote
ChromeBreaker wrote:D legendary hero wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Play caldari logi is how to have fun?
Cripes! Why didn't you tell me I'm not having fun playing the most obnoxious fatty in DUST history???
How was I to know my HMG was less optimally fun? Does my forge gun suffer this deficiency?
You bring anecdotal evidence, and no hard facts. nothing is OP because you assert that it is OP.
Something is OP if numbers and facts prove it.
All I see here is that "the assault rifle beats everything." <---This would be an example of anecdotal evidence.
All nerf threads on the DUST forums save for a few who bring math to the party are anecdotal, and thusly worthless from a game balance standpoint. And yet 1. this is the same evidence people brought with regards the Flaylocks, MD, HMGs, LAZERs, etc and they were subsequently nerfed And 2. I have numbers and math littered across almost every post i make on this god damn forum and no one responds to it, because it is irrefutable. seriously? people cries "flaylocks are OP" and i can't even rememebr a single reason why they said so. in fact 90% of their reasons for saying it was OP, were actually things the weapon was DESIGNED for. So, not only was it unnessesary, they effetively nerfed a gun that was in fact perfectly balanced. Where as everyone profess the AR to be balanced and yet, it out guns HMGs, and Shotguns in their niches. Please explain, why an AR has more damage per second than a Tank turret? Heres my maths.... The FleyLock could kill any suit other than a heavy (stupid cal logi) in 3 shots. Think thats quite simple. As for the link, its an example... the AK47 could pretty much be fired underwater after being burried in sand. This is a whole other universe, quoting real life and that type of stuf for a GAME is pointless. If you think the FleyLock was balanced... you might as well ask for HMG with 34dmg... wait...
number 1 that link you ad there was of a guy with spazzed hair saying "nanites"
number 2 AK-47s are extremely resilient and reliable guns, but still jam, still must be cleaned, still over heat, still must be fired in bursts, and still have a 30 round magazine. in fact if it gets too hot the wooden stock can catch fire (modern models have a metal and plastic stock made of fire retardant materials)
you were the one who quoted RL to begin with. and remember i frequently made reference back to dust because your assertions made no sense in RL or in DUST.
Ars are not infantry suppression.. so why do they supress infantry better than an HMG. in fact, please explain to me how in the ******* world an AR fires bigger bullets than an HMG? |
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