I recommend the use of the 'drive by'. It is a slightly higher tier tactic, as it requires turret handlers that can effectively track and engage targets from a moving platform

HAV drivers need to learn to make tactics to counter the tactics AV players, such as myself, use. Complaining that they need more Armor and Shields will do nothing but make their suffering last longer on the battlefield, as any reasonable amount of health increase will be useless without effective tactics. So who better to teach them how to survive AV than a dedicated AV player. I decided to put this in General discussion rather than rookie training grounds, because I feel that many of the experienced people who hang around general discussions would benefit from reading this. I also feel that many people calling for a nerf to AV are not properly using tactics to counter our tactics. Let's begin.

Some general tips:

• Forge gunners should always be your primary target
• Secondary targets are Swarm players
• If a player runs at you it means they either have AV grenades or Remote explosives. Be weary of these suicide bombers
• Destroy turrets even if they are not in enemy control. Don't take the risk
• Destroy Supply depots to keep enemy infantry from switching to and replenishing their AV
• When calling in an HAV do it as far away from the action as possible and if possible behind a building or behind a hill
• Take out dropships before they can get on top of buildings. If they can do that, they can put a forge gunner up there. It will be almost impossible to dislodge them, as many tank turrets can not aim up there.
• Be on the look out for Remote explosive markers on the ground and the annoying sound that vehicle mines make. Too many HAV's die to this.
• Use of cover is FUNDAMENTAL!

Experienced ground personnel know to use the terrain as cover. Many HAV drivers need to learn this lesson.
I say this because I see many HAV's get shot at by Swarms and just take it. They get destroyed because they fail to learn the basic fundamentals of urban fighting, one of the first things to grasp is, how to use your surroundings as improvised defensive positions. Cover. The basic concept is that you use your surrounding environment to keep safe from attacks.

Now the tactics:
A basic maneuver is to move parallel to a building' corner, peek around and make observations. One should not keep in the same position for too long and if spotted one should move as quickly as possible to avoid from having the enemy flank you from the sides or behind. It is also important to note that the more people that are killed by you, the more become aware of your position. Though, this is a maneuver used mostly for long range attacks.

For CQC offensive maneuvers, I recommend the use of the 'drive by'. It is a slightly higher tier tactic, as it requires turret handlers that can effectively track and engage targets from a moving platform. As such, it is a tactic that can really only be mastered by a dedicated tank crew. Though, I digress, it is very effective when executed flawlessly. It is best used to harass and deny the enemy use of gates, entrances and narrow passages such as bridges.. By making strafing runs parallel to the entrance, you can quickly unload a large amount of suppressing fire into the entrance, while not allowing forge gunners or Swarm players enough time to charge or track your HAV. HAV's that make use of this maneuver should be fast, though slow HAV's can make use of this tactic, they should have high shields/armor. High fire rate turrets also compliment your build by giving the ability to tag more targets. After making a strafing run, you should make a U turn and double back at a longer range, as by then any forge gunners will have charged their guns and any players with AV grenades will be hiding behind any cover near the entrance, waiting for you to come past again.

When assaulting through a city or entrance, always stick behind your infantry. Never go in front. They keep people from being able to run up and throw AV grenades at you, as well as keep forge gunners and swarm players distracted. If you do not see a good 5+ assault team pushing ahead into a city, do not go at it alone. You will be surrounded by people with AV grenades and will die faster then you can get out of the vehicle. Just don't do it.

I will add more tactics to this as I ponder effective counters to the tactics I use against HAV's...

Real problems garbage tank fittings.
CCPs balanced them according to the best tank fit against the best AV damage.
If i told most tankers that if theyre putting more than 1 plate or extender on it theyre doing it wrong, theyd say im crazy. Then I'd laugh @ them and slam em w/ proto FG.

You forget one thing: proto AV can solo any tanker, regardless of the tanker's skill. By the time we figure out what's happening, we're dead. There's nothing we can do about hidden forge gunners and invisible swarms.

Also, you are dedicated AV. You are not a dedicated tanker. Please don't tell us what to do, because we know what to do. It's just this broken balance that causes us to lose.

tbh you sound like you don't know what you're talking about and you're just spewing words that you hope make you sound smart...

You are very wrong on this account.

Proto AV weapons are powerful, yes. Though, I see many HAV's make silly mistakes that I feel are too easily corrected. Such as spawning vehicles in the middle of a city. Shooting as snipers instead of forge gunners. Thinking that the most effective tactic is to stand in the middle of the field motion less or doing 360's. I see so many tankers make these mistakes. I just think to myself "how could they think this would occur". Worst part is that they come to complain here on the forums...

The tactic's I explain here are things that I know from observation and studying good HAV drivers. Things I know that frustrate us AV players. Stuff that makes it hard for us to pull fast kills on you guys.

I am just trying to help,

The real problem is that we got proto AV against standard HAVs. Give us proto HAVs, then we'll see who's laughing as I stroll casually towards your proto FG and personally slaughter you with a small blaster turret.

Not sure if troll.

TBH I miss tanks.
They were scary once. It took coordination and effort to bring down the beefiest ones.
Now? Its all LOLtanks for any moron with protoswarms or AV nades.

I am not a dedicated AV player. That role doesn't actually exist. If you have a million SP in forge or swarms and nades you're set to harass or kill just about the meanest tankers all by your clever self.

I kill tanks all the bloody time. I shouldn't. I should need more AV or rail tanks.

So, while I guess you are trying to he helpful (and I like that) the problem is not one of tactics but one of balance.

That said, where the proto tanks at??? If pro tanks are beast in contrast to pro AV ill shut up. But I doubt they will get anything but a one module and some CPU. :/
Ill cross my fingers the pilot suit is useful.

Real problems garbage tank fittings.
CCPs balanced them according to the best tank fit against the best AV damage.
If i told most tankers that if theyre putting more than 1 plate or extender on it theyre doing it wrong, theyd say im crazy. Then I'd laugh @ them and slam em w/ proto FG.

HAV drivers need to learn to make tactics to counter the tactics AV players, such as myself, use. Complaining that they need more Armor and Shields will do nothing but make their suffering last longer on the battlefield, as any reasonable amount of health increase will be useless without effective tactics. So who better to teach them how to survive AV than a dedicated AV player. I decided to put this in General discussion rather than rookie training grounds, because I feel that many of the experienced people who hang around general discussions would benefit from reading this. I also feel that many people calling for a nerf to AV are not properly using tactics to counter our tactics. Let's begin.

Some general tips:

• Forge gunners should always be your primary target
• Secondary targets are Swarm players
• If a player runs at you it means they either have AV grenades or Remote explosives. Be weary of these suicide bombers
• Destroy turrets even if they are not in enemy control. Don't take the risk
• Destroy Supply depots to keep enemy infantry from switching to and replenishing their AV
• When calling in an HAV do it as far away from the action as possible and if possible behind a building or behind a hill
• Take out dropships before they can get on top of buildings. If they can do that, they can put a forge gunner up there. It will be almost impossible to dislodge them, as many tank turrets can not aim up there.
• Be on the look out for Remote explosive markers on the ground and the annoying sound that vehicle mines make. Too many HAV's die to this.
• Use of cover is FUNDAMENTAL!

Experienced ground personnel know to use the terrain as cover. Many HAV drivers need to learn this lesson.
I say this because I see many HAV's get shot at by Swarms and just take it. They get destroyed because they fail to learn the basic fundamentals of urban fighting, one of the first things to grasp is, how to use your surroundings as improvised defensive positions. Cover. The basic concept is that you use your surrounding environment to keep safe from attacks.

Now the tactics:
A basic maneuver is to move parallel to a building' corner, peek around and make observations. One should not keep in the same position for too long and if spotted one should move as quickly as possible to avoid from having the enemy flank you from the sides or behind. It is also important to note that the more people that are killed by you, the more become aware of your position. Though, this is a maneuver used mostly for long range attacks.

For CQC offensive maneuvers, I recommend the use of the 'drive by'. It is a slightly higher tier tactic, as it requires turret handlers that can effectively track and engage targets from a moving platform. As such, it is a tactic that can really only be mastered by a dedicated tank crew. Though, I digress, it is very effective when executed flawlessly. It is best used to harass and deny the enemy use of gates, entrances and narrow passages such as bridges.. By making strafing runs parallel to the entrance, you can quickly unload a large amount of suppressing fire into the entrance, while not allowing forge gunners or Swarm players enough time to charge or track your HAV. HAV's that make use of this maneuver should be fast, though slow HAV's can make use of this tactic, they should have high shields/armor. High fire rate turrets also compliment your build by giving the ability to tag more targets. After making a strafing run, you should make a U turn and double back at a longer range, as by then any forge gunners will have charged their guns and any players with AV grenades will be hiding behind any cover near the entrance, waiting for you to come past again.

When assaulting through a city or entrance, always stick behind your infantry. Never go in front. They keep people from being able to run up and throw AV grenades at you, as well as keep forge gunners and swarm players distracted. If you do not see a good 5+ assault team pushing ahead into a city, do not go at it alone. You will be surrounded by people with AV grenades and will die faster then you can get out of the vehicle. Just don't do it.

I will add more tactics to this as I ponder effective counters to the tactics I use against HAV's...

So who better to teach them how to survive AV than a dedicated AV player.

Then youre not a real tanker. Properly fitted Maddys take 10 shots in a row from ishukone assault FGs, but my guess at the most you can take 6 right? Stop asking for a crutch because you don't know how to fit tanks. Not that proto tanks will be any better, likely the marauders will simply be brought back, and they were BARELY better than STD tanks while costing an insane amount of isk. Learn to fit & use a STD tank or you have no future in tanking, believe me.

And most of the advise in the OP is standard use of HAV's, I'm sorry but its nothing new to anyone who has been running HAV's for any amount of time.

You say that and yet, I see 80% of the tanks I destroy doing very obvious things wrong. The ones I struggle to destroy are usually doing one of the above mentioned tactics and doing it awesomely.

I just see HAV's standing in very bad places doing really stupid stuff, ALL THE TIME!

But you don't drive tanks, so why are you suggesting things?

Then youre not a real tanker. Properly fitted Maddys take 10 shots in a row from ishukone assault FGs, but my guess at the most you can take 6 right? Stop asking for a crutch because you don't know how to fit tanks. Not that proto tanks will be any better, likely the marauders will simply be brought back, and they were BARELY better than STD tanks while costing an insane amount of isk. Learn to fit & use a STD tank or you have no future in tanking, believe me.

So many things wrong with your post. First of all, I have tanked ever since I started and I endured a couple SP resets, which would place me about a year ago.

Second, I run Gunnlogis only, as I see no point in thinning out my SP over both armor and shield.

Third, you're using FGs against armor. FGs are bonused against shield. I hope your AV brain can comprehend this. I have gone down in four proto assault forge gun shots. That means 6 seconds total to shoot an entire FG clip at a huge and slow moving target.

Fourth, properly fitted Maddys take so many FG shots because not only are they not bonused against armor, but armor reps can negate half of your damage, at least. It's a different story for them with proto swarms and AV grenades though.

Fifth, I'm not asking for a crutch. I know how to fit my tanks. Shields need to be buffed.

Sixth, well now I'm just ******* irritated by the ignorance of your kind. Every ******* AVer wants to solo a tank. Then Dust is the wrong ******* game for you. Stop bitching and crying "tanks are OP". You, however, are the worst piece of **** I have ever seen. If I ever see you in game, I will make sure I ******* run you over with my Charybdis over and over. Because I will not tolerate people like you.

GTFO, this is not the game for you.

You forget one thing: proto AV can solo any tanker, regardless of the tanker's skill. By the time we figure out what's happening, we're dead. There's nothing we can do about hidden forge gunners and invisible swarms.

Also, you are dedicated AV. You are not a dedicated tanker. Please don't tell us what to do, because we know what to do. It's just this broken balance that causes us to lose.

Edit: your tips are nothing new. We destroy turrets whenever possible because, hey, free WPs. We know to call them in safe areas (also, WTF has that got to do with AV vs HAVs). We kill dropships for the same reason as turrets. I didn't bother reading the tactics because they are probably nothing new, I will not have you tell us what to do, and I'm ******* tired right now to read your essay.

Second edit: ok, I glanced through your tactics. Again, nothing new. And again, there's nothing in regards with dealing with forge gun snipers and invisible swarms. Those are unbeatable and you can only hope you can get out of sight before they pop you.

No sh*t i FG are weak to armor, thats the reason i was using it as an example you r3tard. And I've always said shield reppers need to be buffed to the point of armor reppers. You're also definitely not a real tanker since youre using gunnlogis, and your pathetic LLAV is gonna be nerfed soon. And since your asking for proto tanks damn right your asking for a crutch. I have never said tanks are OP, the problem is garbage tankers are asking for OP tanks, which will just make tanks eventually get nerfed even harder. Try me b*tch i was tanking before you even started, and i quit at the beginning of this build because at first they were nerfed hard, but then CCP buffed them, so now I've got 84 officer FGs w/ dual complex damage mods, Proto AV nades and proto nanohives with your name on them.

U know wats funny i've never seen a post tht says for AV to adapt always tanks. Why don't u guys have to. O thts right cause u keep getting BUFFS.

GG AV try i dunno getting gud. and stop telling tanks to adapt just cause u get buffed or tanks gets nerfed.

You know what POTHEAD? If you think you know how to fit tanks better than me, I ******* dare you to a 1v1 in tanks.

HAVs are still viable, but they've been forced into an artillery support role, not really as "Tanks."

*shrugs*

So many things wrong with your post. First of all, I have tanked ever since I started and I endured a couple SP resets, which would place me about a year ago.

Second, I run Gunnlogis only, as I see no point in thinning out my SP over both armor and shield.

Third, you're using FGs against armor. FGs are bonused against shield. I hope your AV brain can comprehend this. I have gone down in four proto assault forge gun shots. That means 6 seconds total to shoot an entire FG clip at a huge and slow moving target.

Fourth, properly fitted Maddys take so many FG shots because not only are they not bonused against armor, but armor reps can negate half of your damage, at least. It's a different story for them with proto swarms and AV grenades though.

Fifth, I'm not asking for a crutch. I know how to fit my tanks. Shields need to be buffed.

Sixth, well now I'm just ******* irritated by the ignorance of your kind. Every ******* AVer wants to solo a tank. Then Dust is the wrong ******* game for you. Stop bitching and crying "tanks are OP". You, however, are the worst piece of **** I have ever seen. If I ever see you in game, I will make sure I ******* run you over with my Charybdis over and over. Because I will not tolerate people like you.

GTFO, this is not the game for you.

HAV drivers need to learn to make tactics to counter the tactics AV players, such as myself, use. Complaining that they need more Armor and Shields will do nothing but make their suffering last longer on the battlefield, as any reasonable amount of health increase will be useless without effective tactics. So who better to teach them how to survive AV than a dedicated AV player. I decided to put this in General discussion rather than rookie training grounds, because I feel that many of the experienced people who hang around general discussions would benefit from reading this. I also feel that many people calling for a nerf to AV are not properly using tactics to counter our tactics. Let's begin.

Some general tips:

• Forge gunners should always be your primary target
• Secondary targets are Swarm players
• If a player runs at you it means they either have AV grenades or Remote explosives. Be weary of these suicide bombers
• Destroy turrets even if they are not in enemy control. Don't take the risk
• Destroy Supply depots to keep enemy infantry from switching to and replenishing their AV
• When calling in an HAV do it as far away from the action as possible and if possible behind a building or behind a hill
• Take out dropships before they can get on top of buildings. If they can do that, they can put a forge gunner up there. It will be almost impossible to dislodge them, as many tank turrets can not aim up there.
• Be on the look out for Remote explosive markers on the ground and the annoying sound that vehicle mines make. Too many HAV's die to this.
• Use of cover is FUNDAMENTAL!

Experienced ground personnel know to use the terrain as cover. Many HAV drivers need to learn this lesson.
I say this because I see many HAV's get shot at by Swarms and just take it. They get destroyed because they fail to learn the basic fundamentals of urban fighting, one of the first things to grasp is, how to use your surroundings as improvised defensive positions. Cover. The basic concept is that you use your surrounding environment to keep safe from attacks.

Now the tactics:
A basic maneuver is to move parallel to a building' corner, peek around and make observations. One should not keep in the same position for too long and if spotted one should move as quickly as possible to avoid from having the enemy flank you from the sides or behind. It is also important to note that the more people that are killed by you, the more become aware of your position. Though, this is a maneuver used mostly for long range attacks.

For CQC offensive maneuvers, I recommend the use of the 'drive by'. It is a slightly higher tier tactic, as it requires turret handlers that can effectively track and engage targets from a moving platform. As such, it is a tactic that can really only be mastered by a dedicated tank crew. Though, I digress, it is very effective when executed flawlessly. It is best used to harass and deny the enemy use of gates, entrances and narrow passages such as bridges.. By making strafing runs parallel to the entrance, you can quickly unload a large amount of suppressing fire into the entrance, while not allowing forge gunners or Swarm players enough time to charge or track your HAV. HAV's that make use of this maneuver should be fast, though slow HAV's can make use of this tactic, they should have high shields/armor. High fire rate turrets also compliment your build by giving the ability to tag more targets. After making a strafing run, you should make a U turn and double back at a longer range, as by then any forge gunners will have charged their guns and any players with AV grenades will be hiding behind any cover near the entrance, waiting for you to come past again.

When assaulting through a city or entrance, always stick behind your infantry. Never go in front. They keep people from being able to run up and throw AV grenades at you, as well as keep forge gunners and swarm players distracted. If you do not see a good 5+ assault team pushing ahead into a city, do not go at it alone. You will be surrounded by people with AV grenades and will die faster then you can get out of the vehicle. Just don't do it.

I will add more tactics to this as I ponder effective counters to the tactics I use against HAV's...

You forget one thing: proto AV can solo any tanker, regardless of the tanker's skill. By the time we figure out what's happening, we're dead. There's nothing we can do about hidden forge gunners and invisible swarms.

Also, you are dedicated AV. You are not a dedicated tanker. Please don't tell us what to do, because we know what to do. It's just this broken balance that causes us to lose.

Edit: your tips are nothing new. We destroy turrets whenever possible because, hey, free WPs. We know to call them in safe areas (also, WTF has that got to do with AV vs HAVs). We kill dropships for the same reason as turrets. I didn't bother reading the tactics because they are probably nothing new, I will not have you tell us what to do, and I'm ******* tired right now to read your essay.

Second edit: ok, I glanced through your tactics. Again, nothing new. And again, there's nothing in regards with dealing with forge gun snipers and invisible swarms. Those are unbeatable and you can only hope you can get out of sight before they pop you.

HAV drivers need to learn to make tactics to counter the tactics AV players, such as myself, use. Complaining that they need more Armor and Shields will do nothing but make their suffering last longer on the battlefield, as any reasonable amount of health increase will be useless without effective tactics. So who better to teach them how to survive AV than a dedicated AV player. I decided to put this in General discussion rather than rookie training grounds, because I feel that many of the experienced people who hang around general discussions would benefit from reading this. I also feel that many people calling for a nerf to AV are not properly using tactics to counter our tactics. Let's begin.

Some general tips:

• Forge gunners should always be your primary target
• Secondary targets are Swarm players
• If a player runs at you it means they either have AV grenades or Remote explosives. Be weary of these suicide bombers
• Destroy turrets even if they are not in enemy control. Don't take the risk
• Destroy Supply depots to keep enemy infantry from switching to and replenishing their AV
• When calling in an HAV do it as far away from the action as possible and if possible behind a building or behind a hill
• Take out dropships before they can get on top of buildings. If they can do that, they can put a forge gunner up there. It will be almost impossible to dislodge them, as many tank turrets can not aim up there.
• Be on the look out for Remote explosive markers on the ground and the annoying sound that vehicle mines make. Too many HAV's die to this.
• Use of cover is FUNDAMENTAL!

Experienced ground personnel know to use the terrain as cover. Many HAV drivers need to learn this lesson.
I say this because I see many HAV's get shot at by Swarms and just take it. They get destroyed because they fail to learn the basic fundamentals of urban fighting, one of the first things to grasp is, how to use your surroundings as improvised defensive positions. Cover. The basic concept is that you use your surrounding environment to keep safe from attacks.

Now the tactics:
A basic maneuver is to move parallel to a building' corner, peek around and make observations. One should not keep in the same position for too long and if spotted one should move as quickly as possible to avoid from having the enemy flank you from the sides or behind. It is also important to note that the more people that are killed by you, the more become aware of your position. Though, this is a maneuver used mostly for long range attacks.

For CQC offensive maneuvers, I recommend the use of the 'drive by'. It is a slightly higher tier tactic, as it requires turret handlers that can effectively track and engage targets from a moving platform. As such, it is a tactic that can really only be mastered by a dedicated tank crew. Though, I digress, it is very effective when executed flawlessly. It is best used to harass and deny the enemy use of gates, entrances and narrow passages such as bridges.. By making strafing runs parallel to the entrance, you can quickly unload a large amount of suppressing fire into the entrance, while not allowing forge gunners or Swarm players enough time to charge or track your HAV. HAV's that make use of this maneuver should be fast, though slow HAV's can make use of this tactic, they should have high shields/armor. High fire rate turrets also compliment your build by giving the ability to tag more targets. After making a strafing run, you should make a U turn and double back at a longer range, as by then any forge gunners will have charged their guns and any players with AV grenades will be hiding behind any cover near the entrance, waiting for you to come past again.

When assaulting through a city or entrance, always stick behind your infantry. Never go in front. They keep people from being able to run up and throw AV grenades at you, as well as keep forge gunners and swarm players distracted. If you do not see a good 5+ assault team pushing ahead into a city, do not go at it alone. You will be surrounded by people with AV grenades and will die faster then you can get out of the vehicle. Just don't do it.

I will add more tactics to this as I ponder effective counters to the tactics I use against HAV's...

Your tactics are all valid and useful.

Assuming you're in an armour tank, not a shield tank.

And armour tanks are apparently losing 2/3 of their repair capabilities, bringing them in line with the (lack of) survivability shield tankers have.

I'll adapt when the game gives me options other than "play as my enemies" and "stop driving tanks and skill into LLAVs". Until then, I'm a Caldari HAV driver who doesn't have any valid options.

I run a Scout, an AV character, and my tank character. I can perform effectively as a Scout in spite of some recent nerfs to an already-weaker playstyle. I can perform well as AV, even though I'm not able to hold my own during infantry combat. What I can't do is keep my horribly broken underpowered tank from getting slaughtered every time it shows up.

If it didn't sound like CCP are going to be nerfing armour tanks, then I'd just be calling for a buff to my shield tanks to bring them into line with the competition. Right now, with the "broken" repairers, armour tanks are well-balanced against AV. Instead of "fixing" repairers to work as described, they should fix the description to match actual effect, and buff shield tanks appropriately.

On the topic of tactics; pilots should work together more. By this I mean that there are remote reps that I never see being used. If we were to support our heavy armor with heavy reps and transfers then AV wouldn't be such a big problem. An HAV moving slowly with support from LAVs and other HAVs should be able to tank AV and defend themselves but pilots use our vehicles like that are supposed to be indestructible. I would love to see some spider tanking HAVs rolling across the battlefield but no one seems to do it for whatever reason so our HAV look anemic and under powered. We need logistic HAVs to support glass cannon vehicles, I believe that CCP wanted us to use them like that. I have never met a heavy vehicle that didn't need logistics for support. Tactics would go a long way if we would develop a doctrine of support.

Want me to dumb it down for you Fred Flinstone?

Remote armor reps are worse due to their 60s cooldown . Shield transporters are theoretically better than shield boosters, but their limited range is a crippling factor.

You can dumb it down all you want... once you actually drive a tank.

You say that and yet, I see 80% of the tanks I destroy doing very obvious things wrong. The ones I struggle to destroy are usually doing one of the above mentioned tactics and doing it awesomely.

I just see HAV's standing in very bad places doing really stupid stuff, ALL THE TIME!

Observation =/= Experience.

Let me guess, you think you should be promoted to CEO instead of janitor at the place you work because you think you can do the job better than he can. Or maybe you're still in school... yes, that makes more sense.

The audacity of children these days....

I don't need to drive a tank to know what tactics they can use to make it harder to destroy them.

Yeah because two swarms and a forge gun on top of a tower leaves me a lot of room to position myself properly. When av can see the entire map and can practically shoot the entire map it must be the tankers fault for coming out of the redline. And don't tell me shoot the dropship before it gets up there when you can easily fly behind the structure.

O_o

Well, this explains why you support any HAV going into urban at all...

HAV drivers need to learn to make tactics to counter the tactics AV players, such as myself, use. Complaining that they need more Armor and Shields will do nothing but make their suffering last longer on the battlefield, as any reasonable amount of health increase will be useless without effective tactics. So who better to teach them how to survive AV than a dedicated AV player. I decided to put this in General discussion rather than rookie training grounds, because I feel that many of the experienced people who hang around general discussions would benefit from reading this. I also feel that many people calling for a nerf to AV are not properly using tactics to counter our tactics. Let's begin.

Some general tips:

• Forge gunners should always be your primary target
• Secondary targets are Swarm players
• If a player runs at you it means they either have AV grenades or Remote explosives. Be weary of these suicide bombers
• Destroy turrets even if they are not in enemy control. Don't take the risk
• Destroy Supply depots to keep enemy infantry from switching to and replenishing their AV
• When calling in an HAV do it as far away from the action as possible and if possible behind a building or behind a hill
• Take out dropships before they can get on top of buildings. If they can do that, they can put a forge gunner up there. It will be almost impossible to dislodge them, as many tank turrets can not aim up there.
• Be on the look out for Remote explosive markers on the ground and the annoying sound that vehicle mines make. Too many HAV's die to this.
• Use of cover is FUNDAMENTAL!

List of things that need to be fixed:

• Invisible swarms
• Forge gun damage at range
• Vehicle and turret price

Experienced ground personnel know to use the terrain as cover. Many HAV drivers need to learn this lesson.
I say this because I see many HAV's get shot at by Swarms and just take it. They get destroyed because they fail to learn the basic fundamentals of urban fighting, one of the first things to grasp is, how to use your surroundings as improvised defensive positions. Cover. The basic concept is that you use your surrounding environment to keep safe from attacks.

Now the tactics:
A basic maneuver is to move parallel to a building' corner, peek around and make observations. One should not keep in the same position for too long and if spotted one should move as quickly as possible to avoid from having the enemy flank you from the sides or behind. It is also important to note that the more people that are killed by you, the more become aware of your position. Though, this is a maneuver used mostly for long range attacks.

For CQC offensive maneuvers, I recommend the use of the 'drive by'. It is a slightly higher tier tactic, as it requires turret handlers that can effectively track and engage targets from a moving platform. As such, it is a tactic that can really only be mastered by a dedicated tank crew. Though, I digress, it is very effective when executed flawlessly. It is best used to harass and deny the enemy use of gates, entrances and narrow passages such as bridges.. By making strafing runs parallel to the entrance, you can quickly unload a large amount of suppressing fire into the entrance, while not allowing forge gunners or Swarm players enough time to charge or track your HAV. HAV's that make use of this maneuver should be fast, though slow HAV's can make use of this tactic, they should have high shields/armor. High fire rate turrets also compliment your build by giving the ability to tag more targets. After making a strafing run, you should make a U turn and double back at a longer range, as by then any forge gunners will have charged their guns and any players with AV grenades will be hiding behind any cover near the entrance, waiting for you to come past again.

When assaulting through a city or entrance, always stick behind your infantry. Never go in front. They keep people from being able to run up and throw AV grenades at you, as well as keep forge gunners and swarm players distracted. If you do not see a good 5+ assault team pushing ahead into a city, do not go at it alone. You will be surrounded by people with AV grenades and will die faster then you can get out of the vehicle. Just don't do it.

I will add more tactics to this as I ponder effective counters to the tactics I use against HAV's...

Notes*: I see the need to nerf things like the damage at range of Forge guns, as well as reduce the price of Tank turrets. As well as several other small buffs, that when added up will be a big bonus. The issue I have is that people think that HAV's need to be almost indestructible and that they feel that you should be able to go into the middle of the map and have it easy. Things need to be improved, but many of the more vocal tankers are being way to unreasonable.

You forget one thing: proto AV can solo any tanker, regardless of the tanker's skill. By the time we figure out what's happening, we're dead. There's nothing we can do about hidden forge gunners and invisible swarms.

Also, you are dedicated AV. You are not a dedicated tanker. Please don't tell us what to do, because we know what to do. It's just this broken balance that causes us to lose.

Edit: your tips are nothing new. We destroy turrets whenever possible because, hey, free WPs. We know to call them in safe areas (also, WTF has that got to do with AV vs HAVs). We kill dropships for the same reason as turrets. I didn't bother reading the tactics because they are probably nothing new, I will not have you tell us what to do, and I'm ******* tired right now to read your essay.

Second edit: ok, I glanced through your tactics. Again, nothing new. And again, there's nothing in regards with dealing with forge gun snipers and invisible swarms. Those are unbeatable and you can only hope you can get out of sight before they pop you.

This would be like a person in a rifter QQing because they can't take out a titan

Seeing as I think that HAV's need a buff. Though, are not nearly as bad as people think it is. I don't think this analogy. Is proper in this situation.

Then youre not a real tanker. Properly fitted Maddys take 10 shots in a row from ishukone assault FGs, but my guess at the most you can take 6 right? Stop asking for a crutch because you don't know how to fit tanks. Not that proto tanks will be any better, likely the marauders will simply be brought back, and they were BARELY better than STD tanks while costing an insane amount of isk. Learn to fit & use a STD tank or you have no future in tanking, believe me.

dude proto av destroys vehicals no matter what fit you have on

okay why nerf Armor tanks when you could buff shield tanks?

You can dumb it down all you want... once you actually drive a tank.

HAV drivers need to learn to make tactics to counter the tactics AV players, such as myself, use. Complaining that they need more Armor and Shields will do nothing but make their suffering last longer on the battlefield, as any reasonable amount of health increase will be useless without effective tactics. So who better to teach them how to survive AV than a dedicated AV player. I decided to put this in General discussion rather than rookie training grounds, because I feel that many of the experienced people who hang around general discussions would benefit from reading this. I also feel that many people calling for a nerf to AV are not properly using tactics to counter our tactics. Let's begin.

Some general tips:

• Forge gunners should always be your primary target
• Secondary targets are Swarm players
• If a player runs at you it means they either have AV grenades or Remote explosives. Be weary of these suicide bombers
• Destroy turrets even if they are not in enemy control. Don't take the risk
• Destroy Supply depots to keep enemy infantry from switching to and replenishing their AV
• When calling in an HAV do it as far away from the action as possible and if possible behind a building or behind a hill
• Take out dropships before they can get on top of buildings. If they can do that, they can put a forge gunner up there. It will be almost impossible to dislodge them, as many tank turrets can not aim up there.
• Be on the look out for Remote explosive markers on the ground and the annoying sound that vehicle mines make. Too many HAV's die to this.
• Use of cover is FUNDAMENTAL!

List of things that need to be fixed:

• Invisible swarms
• Forge gun damage at range
• Vehicle and turret price

Experienced ground personnel know to use the terrain as cover. Many HAV drivers need to learn this lesson.
I say this because I see many HAV's get shot at by Swarms and just take it. They get destroyed because they fail to learn the basic fundamentals of urban fighting, one of the first things to grasp is, how to use your surroundings as improvised defensive positions. Cover. The basic concept is that you use your surrounding environment to keep safe from attacks.

Now the tactics:
A basic maneuver is to move parallel to a building' corner, peek around and make observations. One should not keep in the same position for too long and if spotted one should move as quickly as possible to avoid from having the enemy flank you from the sides or behind. It is also important to note that the more people that are killed by you, the more become aware of your position. Though, this is a maneuver used mostly for long range attacks.

For CQC offensive maneuvers, I recommend the use of the 'drive by'. It is a slightly higher tier tactic, as it requires turret handlers that can effectively track and engage targets from a moving platform. As such, it is a tactic that can really only be mastered by a dedicated tank crew. Though, I digress, it is very effective when executed flawlessly. It is best used to harass and deny the enemy use of gates, entrances and narrow passages such as bridges.. By making strafing runs parallel to the entrance, you can quickly unload a large amount of suppressing fire into the entrance, while not allowing forge gunners or Swarm players enough time to charge or track your HAV. HAV's that make use of this maneuver should be fast, though slow HAV's can make use of this tactic, they should have high shields/armor. High fire rate turrets also compliment your build by giving the ability to tag more targets. After making a strafing run, you should make a U turn and double back at a longer range, as by then any forge gunners will have charged their guns and any players with AV grenades will be hiding behind any cover near the entrance, waiting for you to come past again.

When assaulting through a city or entrance, always stick behind your infantry. Never go in front. They keep people from being able to run up and throw AV grenades at you, as well as keep forge gunners and swarm players distracted. If you do not see a good 5+ assault team pushing ahead into a city, do not go at it alone. You will be surrounded by people with AV grenades and will die faster then you can get out of the vehicle. Just don't do it.

I will add more tactics to this as I ponder effective counters to the tactics I use against HAV's...

Notes*: I see the need to nerf things like the damage at range of Forge guns, as well as reduce the price of Tank turrets. As well as several other small buffs, that when added up will be a big bonus. The issue I have is that people think that HAV's need to be almost indestructible and that they feel that you should be able to go into the middle of the map and have it easy. Things need to be improved, but many of the more vocal tankers are being way to unreasonable.

I don't remember... do you tank?

If not... who are you to tell us how to tank?

The role does exist. It denotes players that go beyond getting a proto swarm and AV grenades. We are the players that go through the millins of ISk it takes to get 15% more damage on our Swarms by putting SP into the skill, not just by damage mods. We are the guys that skill into proto side arms, then go through all the skills to add extra damage and improve accuracy. We are the guys that skill into proto Minmatar racial assault suit, just to get more ammo in our side arm. We are the guys that get proto Swarms before we get a standard AR.

We exist. Though... Not officially.

Don't you run around with a standard plasma cannon? Wouldn't really consider that being a dedicated AV player more of a nuisance than anything lol

Do you even tank bro?

Read post #66

So no. When you wrote this post.. no

You say that and yet, I see 80% of the tanks I destroy doing very obvious things wrong. The ones I struggle to destroy are usually doing one of the above mentioned tactics and doing it awesomely.

I just see HAV's standing in very bad places doing really stupid stuff, ALL THE TIME!

You know what POTHEAD? If you think you know how to fit tanks better than me, I ******* dare you to a 1v1 in tanks.

No sh*t i FG are weak to armor, thats the reason i was using it as an example you r3tard. And I've always said shield reppers need to be buffed to the point of armor reppers. You're also definitely not a real tanker since youre using gunnlogis, and your pathetic LLAV is gonna be nerfed soon. And since your asking for proto tanks damn right your asking for a crutch. I have never said tanks are OP, the problem is garbage tankers are asking for OP tanks, which will just make tanks eventually get nerfed even harder. Try me b*tch i was tanking before you even started, and i quit at the beginning of this build because at first they were nerfed hard, but then CCP buffed them, so now I've got 84 officer FGs w/ dual complex damage mods, Proto AV nades and proto nanohives with your name on them.

oto AV nades and proto nanohives with your name on them.

So then you're soloing militia tanks, and very basically fit Madrugars and Gunnlogis.

I'll space it out, too.

You can lolAVstomp the Sica, Soma, and base-HP Madrugars and Gunnlogis. I doubt you can solo tankers that have an idea of what you're doing. You shouldn't be able to solo a tank, anyway. But that's not fair, you say. It's entirely fair. SP requirements for AV are a pittance against SP requirements for an effective tank. What's your SP pool, 4-5mil? That's enough for a Duvolle, spec'd to the gills. If we don't have armor and shield skills maxed, we're losing on some defenses. But so do suits, you say. The only thing that tracks infantry currently are the tracking locus grenades, which were nerfed down to one carried. So to use those effectively, you need to be tethered to a supply depot.

It's basically the same with AV grenades. They don't require any forethought. Just throw, and profit.

It's easy to solo crap fit tanks. Much harder to destroy two or more communicating and working together. I had a Gunnlogi survive PRO AV and two orbs in a match. Why? Because I'm not stupid. As far as I can remember, I've seen you on the other side once. You had four tankers and 3 other guys with PRO AV. I had two other people in my squad, one with a tank. Were circumstances equal, my squad would've won the tank/AV war.

Does it matter? I used my own tactics and did it like a boss and I barely knew how to turn the first half if the games I played LOL

If anything. I will add more to this. What I have written down so far us good.

Bring that "my first tank" to a PC fight. or better yet, bring a 2.5 mil kitted out one that gets 4 shotted by some douchebag who's out of render range while your directional indicator is lying to you about where the hits are coming from.

"I only used this for a day against people who for the most part, either could not give one less of a ****, or were crap anyways. Y'all need to stop crying that you get killed in your tanks that cost 5x more than mine(for minimal survivability increases) did and required skilling into, which were lost in real fights."

On the topic of tactics; pilots should work together more. By this I mean that there are remote reps that I never see being used. If we were to support our heavy armor with heavy reps and transfers then AV wouldn't be such a big problem. An HAV moving slowly with support from LAVs and other HAVs should be able to tank AV and defend themselves but pilots use our vehicles like that are supposed to be indestructible. I would love to see some spider tanking HAVs rolling across the battlefield but no one seems to do it for whatever reason so our HAV look anemic and under powered. We need logistic HAVs to support glass cannon vehicles, I believe that CCP wanted us to use them like that. I have never met a heavy vehicle that didn't need logistics for support. Tactics would go a long way if we would develop a doctrine of support.

your a jerk.......everything op said is a good refresher....... people like you are whats wrong with this world....go be a jerk at your job and lets see how long it takes for you to get fired.....

u blow up my [ I consider all my precious >:) ] supply depot and ur on my team ill ram my lav into u -_-

I don't need to drive a tank to know what tactics they can use to make it harder to destroy them.

Yeah, I am audacious, also bold, venturesome and resolute.

Also, it is painful to watch people not do something right when I know what could be done better. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. You never know till you speak up. If you don't let yourself be heard, you will never amount to anything.

I'd rather be audacious and loud, then meek and silent!

Still waiting to see you try out these "higher tactics" you speak of.

I'll drop a basic fit Soma for you to roll around in.

I finally made myself a Soma build. Managed to do pretty well. Out of all my games by best game was 14 and 1. Second best was 8 and 1. I managed to keep my HAV alive for 3 games, 2 of them were merc battles.

Every single of my HAV deaths was due to proto HAV. Except for four. One was 3 std. AV grenades because I decided to push up without a squad or my shields. 1 was due to a Madrugar, I made him pay for it with my Swarm Launcher. I was installation related. Another was against an entire squad plus a Sica, who ran away after he lost shields.

To be honest, tanking is nit as hard as you guys make it seem. And this was just day 1

I run around with a proto Swarm Launcher.

Sit down.

Does it matter?

Can you read! I said to read post?#66 on page 4.

I already have Soma's and did Work with them.

Ok now I REALLY have to go to sleep... Why do I keep looking at these forums? @_@

I won't be able to reply until tomorrow, so bye! :D

I reply to posts in the order I read them. I don't reply to one or two out of a whole thread. I don't dual mouse, and I don't dual screen. I open the reply in another tab, do that, then continue reading. So it'll appear delayed, because I like to read every post in order, while replying to some.

EDIT*: I do tank now, read post #66 page 4

HAV drivers need to learn to make tactics to counter the tactics AV players, such as myself, use. Complaining that they need more Armor and Shields will do nothing but make their suffering last longer on the battlefield, as any reasonable amount of health increase will be useless without effective tactics. So who better to teach them how to survive AV than a dedicated AV player. I decided to put this in General discussion rather than rookie training grounds, because I feel that many of the experienced people who hang around general discussions would benefit from reading this. I also feel that many people calling for a nerf to AV are not properly using tactics to counter our tactics. Let's begin.

Some general tips:

• Forge gunners should always be your primary target
• Secondary targets are Swarm players
• If a player runs at you it means they either have AV grenades or Remote explosives. Be weary of these suicide bombers
• Destroy turrets even if they are not in enemy control. Don't take the risk
• Destroy Supply depots to keep enemy infantry from switching to and replenishing their AV
• When calling in an HAV do it as far away from the action as possible and if possible behind a building or behind a hill
• When shooting around corners try to back up around it, instead of using your front. This way you can shoot without exposing your entire tank, also quick escape
• Take out dropships before they can get on top of buildings. If they can do that, they can put a forge gunner up there. It will be almost impossible to dislodge them, as many tank turrets can not aim up there.
• Be on the look out for Remote explosive markers on the ground and the annoying sound that vehicle mines make. Too many HAV's die to this.
• Use of cover is FUNDAMENTAL!

List of things that need to be fixed:

• Invisible swarms
• Forge gun damage at range
• Vehicle and turret price

Experienced ground personnel know to use the terrain as cover. Many HAV drivers need to learn this lesson.
I say this because I see many HAV's get shot at by Swarms and just take it. They get destroyed because they fail to learn the basic fundamentals of urban fighting, one of the first things to grasp is, how to use your surroundings as improvised defensive positions. Cover. The basic concept is that you use your surrounding environment to keep safe from attacks.

Now the tactics:
A basic maneuver is to move parallel to a building' corner, peek around and make observations. One should not keep in the same position for too long and if spotted one should move as quickly as possible to avoid from having the enemy flank you from the sides or behind. It is also important to note that the more people that are killed by you, the more become aware of your position. Though, this is a maneuver used mostly for long range attacks.

For CQC offensive maneuvers, I recommend the use of the 'drive by'. It is a slightly higher tier tactic, as it requires turret handlers that can effectively track and engage targets from a moving platform. As such, it is a tactic that can really only be mastered by a dedicated tank crew. Though, I digress, it is very effective when executed flawlessly. It is best used to harass and deny the enemy use of gates, entrances and narrow passages such as bridges.. By making strafing runs parallel to the entrance, you can quickly unload a large amount of suppressing fire into the entrance, while not allowing forge gunners or Swarm players enough time to charge or track your HAV. HAV's that make use of this maneuver should be fast, though slow HAV's can make use of this tactic, they should have high shields/armor. High fire rate turrets also compliment your build by giving the ability to tag more targets. After making a strafing run, you should make a U turn and double back at a longer range, as by then any forge gunners will have charged their guns and any players with AV grenades will be hiding behind any cover near the entrance, waiting for you to come past again.

When assaulting through a city or entrance, always stick behind your infantry. Never go in front. They keep people from being able to run up and throw AV grenades at you, as well as keep forge gunners and swarm players distracted. If you do not see a good 5+ assault team pushing ahead into a city, do not go at it alone. You will be surrounded by people with AV grenades and will die faster then you can get out of the vehicle. Just don't do it.

I will add more tactics to this as I ponder effective counters to the tactics I use against HAV's...

Notes*: I see the need to nerf things like the damage at range of Forge guns, as well as reduce the price of Tank turrets. As well as several other small buffs, that when added up will be a big bonus. The issue I have is that people think that HAV's need to be almost indestructible and that they feel that you should be able to go into the middle of the map and have it easy. Things need to be improved, but many of the more vocal tankers are being way to unreasonable.

I adapted, you see me driving my LLAV around the field, now you're complaining about that too.

So, obviously infantry dont want us to adapt because tankers, are OP.

Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way around or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves.

Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend

Wow, another thread started by someone who doesn't operate vehicles trying to give advice and make suggestions. But all I hear is nerf this nerf that, buff this buff that. Props to the real tankers who've posted in this thread.

Mister thread starter, your "tips" could be found in the complete idiots guide to tanking. even then i wouldn't follow them to the T.

My primary target is other tanks, not a forge gunner.

Use cover? What a wonderful idea.

If a player runs at me with AV nades, they're stupid. A talented AV operative will stay in cover until I ride right by them, and pop out and unload their stash. If you can't pop a merc running at you, then you've got bigger issues than your incompetent "guide".

Destroy turrets? That's up there with using cover...you'll find these blatantly obvious tips on the back cover of your complete idiots guide to tanking.

Destroy supply depots if they are in enemy occupied territory. If your blues are rockin a specific objective, leave the supply depot alone so they can switch to AV and take that enemy tank out before he blows you to hell, cuz he'll be gunning for you.

I'll call in an HAV wherever i feel like it...you aren't my boss, or my mama.

Here's a suggestion. Instead of backing around corners to prevent exposing yourself, drive in reverse all the time. It takes some getting used to, but you'll minimize your hit box when firing from cover if you drive in reverse. additionally, your headlights won't be shining on the ground in front of you, potentially warning the enemy that you are approaching....but i'm sure you already knew all this.

Taking out dropships is a good tip. But even if they drop their forge gun baddies on a tower, if you are in the forge gunner's range, he's in range of your rail turret. Blast away.

Be on the look out for remote explosives? I run them over on purpose cuz i'm a badass.

Invisible swarms suck, this is true. They were supposed to fix this with rendering at distance with 1.3.

Forge gun damage at range has been nerfed along with every other weapon in the game when they reach their absolute range.

Vehicle price is fine. Turrets are expensive...reduce turret price.




Worst guide ever.

Wow. A new master tank has arrived. I guess I'll see you in PC and see how long you last- not to me but when you find out that every person ony team has at least 2 kinds of proto av.

DeadlyAztec, you obviously need to replace your guide with mine, it's much better.

Be like water, scrublet :)

Don't be an apple ;)

.

YOU'RE AN APPLE!
Kniiiiiiiiiiife.